Talk:Navy/Archive 1

List of naval vessels
Is a list of naval vessels really needed here? It's redundant with the list on the ship page as well as Category:Ship types. &mdash; RJH 14:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It might find place if more order was put to it and more use was made of it. For example, splitting it up into several sections seperated by text? Also, I question the idea of dividing by 'steam' and 'pre-steam'. A lot's changed since the Merrimack. 'Steam', 'pre-steam', and 'carrier age' at least? Or something along those lines? --KharBevNor 18:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Structure and Category problem
Guys, don't we need a general "Navy" category? And a separate (and large) "naval history" article? What's wrong with all of you? I thought such military stuff would be in a top-priority list of young Wikipedians. AlexPU


 * Try clicking on naval history. A "Navy" category is plausible, right now things are somewhat scattered among Category:Naval warfare, Category:Navies, Category:Ships, etc. It's not unusual for a top-level article such as this one to not be a good representative of all of our content; people tend to work at the leaves, so to speak, rather than at the trunk (partly because no one feels qualified to do the overviews, I think). Stan 23:06, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Structure
Proposed structure (to cut and paste):

History
I didn't know where to ask about this, but: "Naval warfare first developed whenever humankind conducted fighting from water-borne vessels." Anyone else find that a little redundant?


 * I agree, it is stating the obvious.

Contemporary naval forces

 * we need stuff on major naval tactics and strategy here: Battlegroups, role of submarines, etc. etc. Why are there no main articles on Naval tactics or Naval strategy? --KharBevNor 15:05, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Modern naval tatics has an article. Falphin 00:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * where? --KharBevNor 17:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Here, Modern naval tactics, I misspelled tatics. Falphin 17:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Naval divisions
Proposed by — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpr (talk • contribs) 03:23, 1 June 2005 (UTC)

How about the Navy in fiction?

From Hornblower to Jack Ryan

lots of issues | leave me a message 08:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Those could be useful additions, but what do you think should be in the Contempoary Naval Forces? The major navies, Australia, China, France,Japan,Russia,UK,US etc or what do you think?--Falphin 01:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Go for it. lots of issues | leave me a message 23:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Do the major Navies but cover the tactics and dispositions of minor navies/coastguards like Iceland somewhere, if only in brief. --KharBevNor 17:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ranks

 * Shouldn't we move those US navy ranks to their own seperate page and maybe add pages for ranks from other contemporary navies, if they don't already exist? --KharBevNor 15:05, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I've removed the list of US naval ranks.  I don't think there is a matching separate page already in existence.  If there isn't we should create one.  Here is the list I've removed:
 * I added in a link to a page that I think covers the topic for multiple nations fairly well. RJH

U.S. Navy rates (enlisted) and ranks (officers)

 * 1) Seaman Recruit
 * 2) Seaman Apprentice
 * 3) Seaman
 * 4) Petty Officer Third Class
 * 5) Petty Officer Second Class
 * 6) Petty Officer First Class
 * 7) Chief Petty Officer
 * 8) Senior Chief Petty Officer
 * 9) Master Chief Petty Officer
 * 10) Fleet/Command Master Chief Petty Officer (a title, not a rank, though the sailor is the ranking enlisted man of the command/fleet)
 * 11) Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (a title, not a rank, though the sailor is the ranking enlisted man of the Navy)
 * 12) Chief Warrent Officer 1 (no longer in use)
 * 13) Chief Warrent Officer 2
 * 14) Chief Warrent Officer 3
 * 15) Chief Warrant Officer 4
 * 16) Chief Warrant Officer 5
 * 17) Ensign
 * 18) Lieutenant Junior Grade
 * 19) Lieutenant
 * 20) Lieutenant Commander
 * 21) Commander
 * 22) Captain
 * 23) Rear Admiral Lower Half
 * 24) Rear Admiral Upper Half
 * 25) Vice Admiral
 * 26) Admiral
 * 27) Fleet Admiral (only for wartime)

lots of issues | leave me a message 23:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here's the British ranks whilst we're about this. Someone needs to check this as my source may be out of date, they like to change the precise titles of the ratings especially with alarming regulartity. Admiral of the Fleet is archaic as the british armed forces don't have any five star ranks anymore:


 * Non-Commissioned:
 * 1) Ordinary Seaman
 * 2) Able Seaman
 * 3) Leading Hand
 * 4) Petty Officer
 * 5) Chief Petty Officer
 * 6) Warrant Officer
 * Commissioned:
 * 1) Midshipman
 * 2) Sub Lieutenant
 * 3) Lieutenant
 * 4) Lieutenant Commander
 * 5) Commander
 * 6) Captain
 * 7) Commodore
 * 8) Rear Admiral
 * 9) Vice Admiral
 * 10) Admiral
 * 11) Admiral of the Fleet (Archaic)

--KharBevNor 17:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The ones above are more correctly "Royal Navy" RanksDubhtail (talk) 18:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Irish Navy Ranks:

Non-Commissioned:
 * 1) Recruit
 * 2) Ordinary Seaman
 * 3) Able Seaman
 * 4) Leading Hand
 * 5) Petty Officer
 * 6) Senior Petty Officer
 * 7) Chief Petty Officer
 * 8) Senior Chief Petty Officer
 * 9) Warrant Officer
 * Commissioned:
 * 1) Cadet
 * 2) Ensign
 * 3) Sub Lieutenant
 * 4) Lieutenant
 * 5) Lieutenant Commander
 * 6) Commander
 * 7) Captain
 * 8) Commodore

Dubhtail (talk) 18:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

List of naval vessels
I propose moving the list of navy vessels to its own page so this general article won't be cluttered.

Agreement?

lots of issues | leave me a message 23:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * didn't see this. I agree, unless it's integrated better. Refer to my comments at the top of the page about ordering of the list, as well. --KharBevNor 18:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Naval Campains
Any idea how we should/what we should do with this section? --ZeWrestler 12:00, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * -Well, we can't list them all...maybe change the title to 'Roles of the Navy' and cover things like shore bombardment, air superiority, troop transportation, etc. --KharBevNor 15:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I've tried to write that section at least 20times but I can't every get anything good. I was going to suggest on writing how campaigns are run.  Falphin 13:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Additional material
Just some random ideas for possible additional material: RJH 14:37, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Navy seals
 * Guided missiles
 * Submarine warfare and sonar
 * Ship/crew deployment cycles
 * Army/Navy rivalry
 * Press gang and crew recruitment
 * "Zulu" and time keeping on board navy ships
 * Navy slang and terminology (e.g. keelhauling, scuttlebutt, dog watch, &c.)


 * good list, but remember this is 'Navy' in general and not just the US Navy. Not sure something on the seals would be appropriate. --KharBevNor 15:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I added in a section on marine troops in general, that included the Navy Seals. Thanks. :) &mdash; RJH 16:46, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lord Nelson
I'm not sure what the following sentence is trying to say: "This is know up until 1805 when Lord Nelson was brought back preserved in a spirits barrel." Seems like the sentence ought to read something like, "This was done up until 1805 when Lord Nelson was brought back preserved in a barrel of spirits." But there are two basic problems with that: 1) burials at sea are still performed; they didn't end in 1805; and 2)It doesn't really have much to do with burial at sea itself, except maybe to note that there have been exceptions. Anyway, unsure of exactly the intended grammatical structure of the sentence and it's meaning, I've simply taken it out. If anyone can come up with a way to clarify its relevance, please feel free to put it back in where appropriate. Kafziel 19:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Images - Battle of Lepanto (1571)
The intro has four images of ships, maybe a painting depicting the Battle of Lepanto (1571), which marked the end of the Ottoman Empire as the dominant naval power &mdash; which redirects here &mdash; would give a bit of a change? Lapaz 20:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)



i'd like to know is why that picture of the Smok is there? it's not suitably informative or specially relevant enough to make up for how terrible quality it is. i would think someone could come up with a better image than that. it should be kept in mind that navies have been around since man discovered the idea of buoyancy, and as such there are thousands if not millions of pictures of ships in existence so quality should not be compromised. Aaronjbryant 21:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: i went ahead and deleted it myself. there are 10 other images there already. Aaronjbryant 21:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC) u will get dischaged for dringking and driving. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.97.140.7 (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Navy Oilers
I have created a new page Navy Oilers. You seem to have a good handle on using the network. Do you have any comments about mine? My passion is to creat an Oiler Museum. Navyoiler (talk) 05:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This may really be more appropriate under Naval Auxiliaries - RFA in Royal Navy etc Dubhtail (talk) 18:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Areas to improve or revise
I think there is room for improvement in this article in a few places, but my thoughts haven't quite gelled yet, so I don't want to make wholesale changes till I get some feedback.

The point of view of this article seems skewed toward the Anglo-American experience. One could argue that makes sense as the dominate navy since c. 1588 has been either the British or U.S. Navy. However, when talking about strategic roles and power projection, it makes little sense as many of the world's navies are smaller and less capable than the U.S. Coast Guard. Also, when the U.S. has a navy larger than the next 13 combined, with half of the world's aircraft carriers and nearly half of the submarines, U.S. naval strategy is a lot different than just about everyone else.

While this is an article about navies, it may be worth a paragraph or two to describe how many of the world's navies are more like coastal defense and/or riverine forces and that some of the world's great powers have a separate military force in the form of a Coast Guard, much as there is a section on naval infantry. Also, I think I would change the Marine Infantry section to be Naval Infantry.

In the etymology section, I found on the OED website that there are mentions of "navy" as a military force dating back to the 1300's. Also, some dictionary entries include the definition of navy as meaning all of a nation's ships, including its merchant ships. This meaning sounds dated to me, but I was wondering what people might think about including that in the etymology section and perhaps also the use of the word marine -- so in other words, include something on how the terms merchant navy and merchant marine have been used but in English but how we now use the term navy almost exclusively with the military force. Mego2005 (talk) 13:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with all your suggestions, except WP probably isn't the right place to discuss dated meanings of words. DexDor (talk) 20:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This article was identified by Voceditenore as having a very low Flesch score. Efforts should be made to improve its readability by using simpler words and sentences and avoiding jargon when possible. Kaldari (talk) 06:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Darius I and Persian Fleets
There are hardly any mentions of the middle eastern navies, particularly a famous navy under Darius I. I believe it is essential to include these navies in order to balance the article. Particularly, Alexander the Great and Darius III did not have navies in a very important historical conflict.

Twillisjr (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

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The Falklands War was the largest naval conflict since World War II.
The above quote is present on a photo depicting the the royal navy. I think this is a gross over statement. You might want to tone it down a bit... Jacob805 17:50, 15 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob805 (talk • contribs)
 * It's a fairly mainstream view.  What were you thinking of as an obvious competitor for the claim? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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