Talk:Nazgûl

Identity
Further to the previous discussion, in 'The Palantir', Gandalf mutters this poem:
 * Tall ships and tall kings
 * Three times three.
 * What brought they from the foundered land
 * Over the flowing sea?
 * Seven stars and seven stones
 * And one white tree.

I am correct in thinking this suggests that the Nine were in fact from Numenor???--Jack Upland (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Elendil and the faithful brought the palantirs from Numenor as it was destroyed in the nine ships. The Nazgul were never on Numenor; the witch-king's realm was Angmar north of Rivendell. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:51, 2 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, Tolkien never mentions the nazgûl in Númenor. But the Witch-king came to Angmar only ca 1300 in the Third Age (App. B).  -- Elphion (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The Akallabêth, as already cited, mentions with intentional vagueness the possibility ("it is said") that three of them were Númenóreans. It's nowhere told what happened to them in Númenor's downfall but clearly they (again) had undead bodily form in the Third Age in Eriador. The only other one described is "Khamûl, the Black Easterling", (UT, The Hunt for the Ring) so he was definitely from Middle-earth. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:28, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The Lord of the Nazgul came to Angmar after becoming a Ringwraith. So what does the poem mean? Did Tolkien originally intend that all 9 (3 x 3) came form Numenor? Is this just another inconsistency in the legendarium?--Jack Upland (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Eh? The poem is nothing to do with the Nazgûl. The nine ships were Elendil's and the others of the faithful, i.e. explicitly the good not the evil Númenóreans; he and Isildur went on to found Gondor and Arnor, the kingdoms that fought against Angmar and other evils. The Seven Stars appear on Aragorn's banner; the Seven Stones are the Palantirs; the white tree grew in the courtyard atop the tower of Minas Tirith. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * But who are the nine tall kings?--Jack Upland (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Elendil and the leaders of the faithful Númenóreans. I see, you're jibbing at the "kings"; Tolkien must have chosen the word to fit the metre better than "lords" or "leaders" or "princes". Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Metrically, lords would do as well as kings.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I wonder. Tolkien always listened to the music of a word, and was concerned here to stress the royal ancestry. I notice that the three times three suggests groupings, i.e. three major lords each leading two minor ones. Interesting. But certainly not the bad guys. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Well, not meter, but assonance: ships and kings. Perhaps there is a reference to the Three Kings bringing gifts? Merry Xmas!--Jack Upland (talk) 17:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, I heard that echo too. Tolkien was certainly very familiar with that carol, and the poetic label "three kings" in those "ships all three" was given to Magi who were certainly not actual Kings. I wonder if any Tolkien scholar has commented on that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * "King" doesn't necessarily mean monarch: for example, King of Arms. I think the parallelism is that nine kings founded Gondor and now nine kings (Black Riders) are attacking it and the nine walkers are opposing them.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

To clarify: Tolkien refers to three of the nazgûl as having been Númenórean lords, but the nazgûl first appeared around SA 2250, well before Sauron came to Númenor. My reading was that he gave the nine rings to men in Middle-earth (and that the three lords were resident in places like Umbar or Lond Daer), so whether the three ever returned to Númenor is not clear (and dubious, IMHO).

I agree with Jack that "tall ships and tall kings three times three" is puzzling. The ships were nine, but the tall kings only three. The poem clearly refers to the flight from Númenor, not to later kings. One might read it as each king having three ships, but Silmarillion p.280 gives Elendil four, Isildur three, and Anárion two. The index of LOTR ("star") says that the ships bearing the seven palantíri each flew a banner with a star (hence "seven stars"). So I have no easy solution to contribute.

But I also agree with our chap in Chiswick that the poem has nothing to do with the nazgûl.

-- Elphion (talk) 20:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

(I'll also add my usual caveat that complete consistency is not to be expected: the tale grew over time, not quite under the master's control!  Tolkien wrote at one point that he had not foreseen the palantíri until one crashed down from Orthanc -- and making its appearance that late clearly indicates that the mythology was never clearly outlined in advance.  Over the scope of thousands of pages, some slip-ups are bound to crop up. -- Elphion (talk) 20:09, 3 January 2021 (UTC) )


 * Yeah, I agree with that, Elphion, except I don't think the number 9 is an accident. Tolkien obviously likes to play with numbers (who can forget 33 and 111?). 3 x 3 = 4 + 3 + 2 = 9. I don't find that explanation of 7 stars convincing. I just noticed the poem with its apparent 9 kings and thought I'd bring it to the wise men here to see if I'd missed something and the 9 Riders were actually the 9 Exiles from Westernesse. Perhaps Tolkien did play with that idea at some point...??? Who knows. Incidentally, I think there is another Christmas message in the novel. They leave Rivendell on Xmas Day and then journey through Hollin which is known for its holly trees. Deck the halls with wreathes of holly...--Jack Upland (talk) 20:26, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are many Christian references, and other things from his grammar-school days that were baldly stuck into the story at very early stages and never quite smoothed over. He was constantly revising things to make the details agree.  E.g., the ships were originally 12, but Gandalf's poem of lore said "three times three", so another detail had to be finagled. -- Elphion (talk) 20:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Well that implies that he thought 9 was a better number to choose than 12, doesn't it? What do you mean by grammar-school days???--Jack Upland (talk) 23:25, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * (1) No, it just means 9 was already published. (2) Grammar school. -- Elphion (talk) 01:06, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you mean by "other things from his grammar-school days".--Jack Upland (talk) 08:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Philology
The philology comment about Gaelic was removed by Chiswick Chap edit 15/02/20; he termed it 'nonsense'. In fact the very issue was addressed by JRRT himself in a 1967 draft letter, Collected Letters 1981 pp.384-5. In Garlic nazg or nasc is a ring. Tolkien stated that this may have been an unintentional derivation from attempted study of Gaelic as a younger man. IAC-62 (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Love the garlic. Yes, I read the letter some months ago. Fact remains, it's Black Speech whatever the unconscious associations. It might be worth a footnote or maybe a talk page mention suits it nicely. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Black Breath (band) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)