Talk:Neapolitan Mastiff/Archive 1

Description/Appearance
This section needs some attention - The term WHAM was originated by the USNMC Judges education committee in 2004 to describe the "correct" type not overdone type as indicated in this paragraph, the new judges education committee has deleted this term from all material. An explanation of correct type verse excessive type is needed but the terminology in this paragraph is not correct. Lisa.Cinciripini (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Most Recent History
This section also needs some attention - Sherlyn although one of the first was not the first to bring mastini to USA - Sottile was - also there is much history to be added here Lisa.Cinciripini (talk) 16:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Re-introduction History/Resurrection of the Molossian
In May of 1949 the cover of an Italian dog magazine announced the comeback of the "Cani di tutte le razze" - "Dog of All Races". The magazine declared the recurrected Mollosian renamed the Neapolitan Mastiff or Mastino Napoletano (Source Zacchi, Mario "The Neapolitan Mastiff" 1983 Publisher Calderini Publishing, Bologna Italy original title Il Molosso italiano)Lisa.Cinciripini (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Early History
Many notable early Italians had mastini such as the artist Pinelli (1781-1835) whose self portraits of 1825 feature a mastino in the center with Pinelli to the side (Renato Pacini, Bartolomeo Pinelli e la Roma del tempo suo, Bartholomew Pinelli and the Rome of his time, Pub. F.Ili Treves, 1935).Lisa.Cinciripini (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Current

 * deleted current history which was also deleted by another editorLisa.Cinciripini (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Old Style Neapolitan Mastiffs
In early 1970's I knew an Italian immigrant(living in the Taylor St neighborhood in Chicago)who had an adult female Neapolitan Mastiff. Very different from what you see today: energetic, athletic and without noticeably loose skin.

I found some info on the net about this older type of dog I once knew: http://abcalert.com/webpage14.htm http://www.mastino-napoletano.de/agility.htm Falange (talk) 21:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"Co-op war"?
It's an article about a dog breed, not a celebrity gossip page. If kept, the text be changed to something like "A Neapolitan Mastiff was involved in a co-op dispute." Which isn't really noteworthy, so I'm just removing it. Exppii (talk) 22:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

History
I think that the comments about the Neopolitan Mastiff being used in the Roman army is completely misleading. It was not the neopolitan mastiff but the molossus, therefore shouldn't this history be left on the molossus page and the molossus page alone. This is the same as saying that any of the several breeds of European mastiff that derive from the molossus fought in the Roman legions, when this is factually incorrect. It would be more correct that the neopolitans ancestor served with the Romans. I particularly think that the part in the introduction that mentions this should be removed, and would do it myself if I was more of an authority on the neopolitan.

Just a little example, would you agree that it would be incorrect to say that the English Mastiff and British War Dog are the same breed, and as such that the English Mastiff was fought in the Roman gladiatorial arena? Well this is the same as the false information that the neopolitan itself fought alongside the Roman forces.

81.159.234.197 (talk) 23:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed independently. The Roman use of dogs in war seems to be a folk tradition anyway, with little if any support in reliable secondary sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Sources?
What were the sources of this article anyway? Because the article states both that these dogs can only manage short burst of energy but that they also fought along Roman Legions. No offense, but such a dog couldn't be a war dog. So what were the sources?--Inugami-bargho (talk) 07:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware (feel free to correct me if someone has DNA evidence otherwise), the claim that Neos go back to Roman times is largely conjecture based on art from the time which shows dogs that might resemble modern-day Neos (this is a common way of "proving" a dog is ancient among various breeds, and one that has been discredited several times for different breeds by DNA testing). At any rate, the two realities can easily exist side-by-side if one takes into account that the modern Neo has been bred as a show dog and pet, nothing more, for at least a hundred years.  The largest concern of most breeders (apart from health, hopefully, which is generally not stellar in this breed) is whether or not their dog conforms to the breed standard, which is an exaggerated, warped representation of the "original" appearance of the breed, and does not take into account the dog's ability to actually do its original job.  This is not a phenomenon unique to the Neo, other examples of a trendy "look" in a dog producing a bizarre standard include the Poodle's coat and the German Shepherd Dog's "banana back".  I am happy accepting the stated lack of stamina, though certainly refs should be implemented.  -- Pharaoh Hound   (talk)  22:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't be a problem because I just borrowed a book on molossers that looks promising. Actually it says something similar to what you said: that the neapolitan mastiff isn't actually ancient and that the real breed started in the first half of the 20th century. When I'm done with the chapter, I will reference certain information and add others. Saidly I couldn't find reliable information from a critics point of view. Seriously it's a shame what has happened with those dogs and all those ailments are now considered "normal". Actually, I've seen even worse. Look in this video at 3:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQSR-1yAMXo&feature=PlayList&p=AB9DF993448B615E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4 --Inugami-bargho (talk) 07:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Can I just add that there is no research whatsoever (art or otherwise) that suggests that the Romans used dogs as offensive weapons in war. I would recommend that the paragraph at the top (disembowl horses etc) be removed - or someone should quote a source! Bassclef (talk) 11:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hardy?
The article says this:

“The Neo is generally hardy, but like all breeds, has some specific health concerns. The most common is Cherry eye. Others include:

Additionally, Neos do not do well in hot weather, and are prone to heatstroke. Like most giant breeds, the Neapolitan Mastiff is not particularly long-lived, averaging 7 to 9 years, however, with a proper biologically appropriate diet, safe exercise, and proper weight maintenance, there is no reason that the average Neo cannot live beyond that.”
 * Hip dysplasia
 * Ectropion
 * Entropion
 * Elbow dysplasia (Also known as "Pimp Paw")
 * Progressive retinal atrophy[citation needed]
 * Hypothyroidism
 * Cardiomyopathy
 * Bloat
 * Skin infections between skin folds called Pyoderma
 * Anesthetic Sensitivity

Can you really call a dog like that hardy (especially regarding to the last sentence)?

Since the article barely names any sources I removed that statement.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 09:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

General article discussion
In general I think the article is well written but is still receiving a 'B' Status from wikidogs - the Beagle page has reached featured status http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle perhaps looking at the formatting and content of that article and getting this article to that status ...afterall it's the Neapolitan Mastiff it can have that if not better....Lisa.Cinciripini (talk) 16:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * the beagle and many other 'good' status dog articles break the history sections up - so I have began several sections for input on building the history section for the Neapolitan here.Lisa.Cinciripini (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this article needs a lot of cleaning up - it's written much more like a user guide than an encyclopedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shinywhale (talk • contribs) 21:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Shinywhale. This article reads as an owners' guide, not an encyclopaedic article. There seems to be very little sourcing, and the wording suggests a lot of opinion, rather than facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BearAllen (talk • contribs) 12:19, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Pic
Wiki Dog Project doesn't use picture of a dog sitting or laying as lead picture, as soon as a better one available, we replace those. Hafspajen (talk) 15:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The image of the dog standing is a better quality image. The image of the dog lying down has distracting shadows in the background and does not give readers a full impression of the breed. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 17:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Made a gallery, hope it is a compromise, but it seems like a weird thing to edit-war on a picture that is used in like seven articles already. Hafspajen (talk) 14:59, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments about size in the first section
Recently the article has been edited to state that Neos should weight well over 200lbs as they are "English Mastiff sized". This is incorrect. While the biggest male Neos have always weighed just over 200lbs, Querci was quoted saying he couldn't see the point in a mastini weighed over 80kg (175lbs) as it couldn't work. There is no source other than general comments that big males can be over 200lb to support that the breed ever weighed that much on average. In addition until the 1930s English Mastiff males typically weighed under 200lbs. Most pics that quote a weight for the dog in them state weights of 150-180lbs for males. The original Scanziani and Italian standards cited 110-150lbs for the breed. Given the standard was written based on Scanziani's foundation dog this is a better reference. Unless there are sources that can support that statement about size and the insulting comments about "downbreeding" this section should be removed or reverted to the original format. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.252.71.141 (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've removed it (and also added the photo back into the info box). SagaciousPhil  - Chat 10:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Someone has again added in comments about size without citation stating large males can reach over 130kg/285lbs. There is zero evidence of any Neo this size ever. The largest males I have been able to confirm (in person so not suitable for Wikipedia) are just under 100kg/220lbs and their breeders state that they are too big.

I would remove the comment myself but I'm not up on how to edit the page in a decent fashion (will have to put that on the to do list). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.252.85.216 (talk) 09:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

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