Talk:Necho II

Untitled
Many current historians tend to believe Herodotus on this point, mostly because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians had the sun on their right hand all the time - in Herodotus's time it was not known that Africa extended south beyond the equator.

I have read the reference in Herodotus, and I've heard this explanation before, but after years of just being familiar with the reference I'm still not sure what this means. How did they have the sun on their right hand the whole time? If they sailed south, across the equator, and then north, across the equator again, how does the sun change position? I get the feeling there is something very obvious that I'm missing...hopefully someone can explain it. Adam Bishop 18:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * part of the voyage, in southern Africa, would have been sailed westward. And this is the part where they have the sun at the right and Herodot would have expected it at their left. However, to make this true it is necessary that they sailed the Guinea coast during the northern hemisphere Summer, because otherwise it would have been to their left in this period. - Andre Engels 08:47, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah...see I knew there was something obvious I was missing :) Adam Bishop 15:09, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Seems to have disappeared
Got lost here diff=prev&oldid=7473694


 * According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Necho II sent out an expedition of Phoenicians, which in three years sailed from the Red Sea around Africa to the mouth of the Nile. Many current historians tend to believe Herodotus on this point, mostly because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians had the sun on their right hand all the time - in Herodotus's time it was not known that Africa extended south beyond the equator.

Putting it back in ... J. D. Redding 23:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC) The introduction is a bit confused when it uses the word "probably". Presumably no contemporary source refers to him as Necho II. So what cross-reference between figures in Egyptian, Biblical, Greek (and possibly Babylonian) records are we proposing here? PatGallacher (talk) 20:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

No tomb and no mummy? Do we have any Egyptologists here? --Anaccuratesource (talk) 03:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Giant overhaul
It's been a while, but I'm not sure I agree with these 180 edits by user Reddi. Some of the new lay-out was and is sloppy, and unencyclopedic things like advising readers what to look at and what to believe are too common. Especially when claiming that the Phoenician Expedition around Africa could never have happened, and that sources on it are to be doubted. Not sure how to go about it though. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 18:38, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

African expedition
Before Reddi:

Herodotus (4.42) also reports that Necho sent out an expedition of Phoenicians, who in three years sailed from the Red Sea around Africa back to the mouth of the Nile. Some current historians tend to believe Herodotus' account, primarily because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians " as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya (Africa), they had the sun on their right - to northward of them" (The Histories 4.42) -- in Herodotus' time it was not known that Africa extended south past the equator; however, Egyptologists also point out that it would have been extremely unusual for an Egyptian Pharaoh to carry out such an expedition. Alan B. Lloyd doubts the event and attributes the development of the story by other events.

Reddi's version, which I later tweaked with an edit summary saying it needed more work:

At some point between 610 and before 594 BC, Necho reputedly commissioned an expedition of Phoenicians, who it is said in three years sailed from the Red Sea around Africa back to the mouth of the Nile. The belief in Herodotus' account, handed down to him by oral tradition, is primarily because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians "as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya (Africa), they had the sun on their right" - to northward of them (The Histories 4.42 ) -- in Herodotus' time it was not generally known that Africa was surrounded by an ocean (with the southern part of Africa being thought connected to Asia ); however, some Egyptologists dispute that an Egyptian Pharaoh would authorize such an expedition, except for the reasons of Asiatic conquest  and trade in the ancient maritime routes. This early description of Necho's expedition as a whole is contentious, it is recommended that one keep an open mind on the subject; but Strabo, Polybius, and Ptolemy doubted the description. Egyptologist A. B. Lloyd also sides with these Ancient Grecian scholars in doubting the event, attributing the development of the story to other events. Regardless, it was believed by Herodotus and Pliny, along with other Egyptologists.

Doug Weller talk 20:49, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Loyd siding with himself?
Regarding the Phoenician Expedition: "Some modern Egyptologists dispute that an Egyptian Pharaoh would authorize such an expedition, ..." This is sourced with a reference that starts with "For instance, the Egyptologist Alan Lloyd" and only mentions his view. That's giving undue weight to one Egyptologist but not really the main issue. The very next sentence is then "Egyptologist A. B. Lloyd also sides with these Ancient Grecian scholars in doubting the event, attributing the development of the story to other events." It even cites THE EXACT SAME ARTICLE! Not sure how this happened but it's getting confusing. I'm merging the two refs and removing the first part. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Too many explanatory footnotes
Footnotes should be reserved for references, unless used to explain a symbol or for other technical reasons. There's too many footnotes which comprise of a paragraph of explanatory text, this should be included in the main text or removed. It clogs up the references section and makes the sources harder to read.