Talk:Ned Stark/Archive 1

Is Ned Stark the WP:COMMONNAME? / Requested move
Disclaimer: I clicked on the daily DYK and have not / do not plan to read / watch Game of Thrones. The article almost entirely refers to the character by the nickname Ned (74 times) than the real name Eddard (9 times). If the book and the TV show also refer the character as Ned instead of Eddard, then Ned Stark is the WP:COMMONNAME and this article should be moved to Ned Stark. As an example, I bring up Ron Weasley, notice the article is not at the real name of Ronald Weasley. If Ned is not the WP:COMMONNAME, the various Neds in this article need to be replaced by Eddards. Tagging. starship .paint   ~ regal  13:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Good question, I actually first added the expanded article to Ned Stark and then noticed that nearly all internal links were to Eddard. The sources are sort of evenly divided on the issue but I can go through and see if there's a trend. The POV chapters themselves are, I believe, all attributed to "Eddard" but I admit it felt more natural to use Ned in the article.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 20:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * , I have seen one of the Game of Thrones book before. So you're saying, at the start of the chapters, it says "Eddard"? But what about the actual prose of the book or the TV show? How do other characters address him? How does George Martin write him? starship  .paint   ~ regal  05:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In the novel, the POV chapter titles are "Eddard" but within the prose Martin calls him Ned and most other characters that know him call him Ned. The TV series is pretty much the same way. My vote is that his common name is Ned, and I don't think this move would be controversial.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 16:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * And for the record, both Eddard Stark and Ned Stark were redirects until about a week ago, when I restored Eddard Stark with a start article another editor and I had been working on in userspace. I then proceeded to expand it further. I suppose we should get some consensus but I really don't think such a move would be contested.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 19:21, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * See below then, . starship  .paint   ~ regal  13:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved: per discussion Ground Zero | t 18:00, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Eddard Stark → Ned Stark – Ned Stark is the WP:COMMONNAME. In the text of the first book of Game of Thrones (where Ned appears and dies), "Eddard" is used 187 times, while " Ned " (with the spaces to discount words like happened) is used 498 times. starship .paint   ~ regal  13:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Per Paint. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support, per my comments above.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 14:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support as the common name in both the show and the books.--Yaksar (let's chat) 01:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support: Ned is the more common usage in reference to the TV show, and that has at least an order of magnitude more viewers than the book has readers (though the book results also support the move). Compare [//www.google.com/#q=%22Ned+Stark%22+TV+-book+-novel+-Wikipedia+-Eddard&safe=off this] narrowly-tailored search result to [//www.google.com/#q=%22Eddard+Stark%22+TV+-book+-novel+-Wikipedia+-Ned&safe=off that] one – Ned beats Eddard by 216,000 to 152,000 when you filter for exclusive usage of one vs. the other, in reference to the TV show only. Narrowing it even further to mentions of Sean Bean in the role, it's Ned 59,000[//www.google.com/#q=%22Ned+Stark%22+%22Sean+Bean%22+-book+-novel+-Wikipedia+-Eddard&safe=off] vs. Eddard 34,100[//www.google.com/#q=%22Eddard+Stark%22+%22Sean+Bean%22+-book+-novel+-Wikipedia+-Ned&safe=off]. I found this result surprising, since I always thought of him as Eddard, and had forgotten he was nicknamed Ned. Just goes to show that personal/anecdotal impressions are not reliable.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. this character is more widely known as Ned Stark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric the fever (talk • contribs) 03:41, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nationality
The info box gives the nationality as 'Westerosi'. What's the citation for this?

Whilst the character is a resident within the westerosi state known as 'the Seven Kingdoms', his identity as one of the 'Northmen', a formerly independent indigenous group who are ethnically and religiously distinct from the non-indigenous conquering majority, is pretty central to his character. How are we defining nationality here? Given the setting of the novel, totally pre-modern, it seems particularly inappropriate to judge nationality on the basis of state allegiance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.193.157 (talk • contribs) 22:40, August 23, 2014


 * Wow, you're taking this very seriously LOL. The template is generic for all fictional characters and I would actually argue that it doesn't really apply to ASOIF, at least by the name "nationality." But all the current individual character articles have "Westerosi" and I don't think any particular thought went into it. Are you suggesting we should put The North here for Ned? &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 04:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Plot summary sections
Before adding any plot details to this article. Can we please discuss potential additions here?

A lot of work in the past few weeks has been spent bring this page up to article quality. Also please remember that this article was deleted several years ago because it got so bloated with plot details. Eric the fever (talk) 03:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I know you're worried about bloat, but this article is in no danger of deletion even with the extra junk that was added earlier, because we've beefed it up beyond plot. I'm fine with cuts obviously, but there were some new details you just cut that actually helped make other things more clear, provided context, etc. Anyway, if this is the only place outside the A Game of Thrones article itself that we're covering Ned-related story, we can get a little more detailed than that article, which needs to cover all characters and story.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 06:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * And dude this diff basically shows that your last 5 edits were pretty much another full revert of the new adds except for a couple of things I tweaked after. That seems kind of ... sneaky. I'm not saying it all should go back in but I'm going to take a look tomorrow and add some stuff phrase by phrase, there were definitely a few good points made, like how a primary reason Ned takes the job is to investigate Jon Arryn's death.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 06:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Analysis sections - potential rewording
I think this article is definitely moving in the right direction. I like that plot is less than 30% of the length of the article and the analysis sections are very well researched. I am a bit of a stickler for readability. I propose a paragraph by paragraph discussion of what is said here just to make sure that paragraphs read smoothly and follow the general thought of the article. First up Character description

The section starts out as
 * In A Game of Thrones (1996), Ned Stark is the virtuous and honorable patriarch of House Stark and the father of six children. The moral compass of the story, he is initially unwavering in his view of right and wrong, duty, loyalty and justice.

No problems there, a perfect two sentence description of his character. I do propose that we shorten the statement slightly to
 * In A Game of Thrones (1996), Ned Stark is the virtuous and honorable patriarch of House Stark and the father of six children. The moral compass of the story, he is initially unwavering in his view of loyalty and honor.

It would cut down a bit of the verbosity a bit

The next sentence is
 * His family name, Stark, serves as an indication of his resistance to moral compromise, but his boundaries are increasingly tested over the course of the novel.

Once again, nothing wrong there and the second half provides a perfect segue into his upcoming character conflicts. However, the next sentence reads


 * He and his wife "are happy to live on the world's edge, teaching their five children the importance of honor and justice,"but his own virtues draw him into the goings-on at court.

I think this statement interrupts the flow of the paragraph. The section starts a description of the honorable Ned Stark, then transitions to his conflicts, but I feel that this statement should either be folded into the first or omitted entirely in this section. I would prefer it get used somewhere though as it is a sourced paraphrase.

The next statement reads
 * Finding himself a key player in the escalating political intrigue of King's Landing, Ned struggles with his moral code as he begins to see the importance of moral and practical compromises to achieve a just end.

Seeing as how we already mentioned his moral comprise, and the prior sentence already states that his boundaries are tested, I believe that this sentence should be rephrased as follows


 * Finding himself a key player in the escalating political intrigue of King's Landing, Ned struggles as his own sense of honor draws him into corrupt goings-on at court.

This way, we can salvage the LATimes citation and it improves the flow of the paragraph.

I think the ending of the paragraph is perfect
 * Ultimately, Ned is forced to weigh his love for his family against what he knows is right.

Reworded as follows
 * Ultimately, Ned is forced to choose between the safety of his family and doing what is right.

The sentence as reworded still conveys the same idea as the original version, but the reworded version brings the moral choice to the forefront. It provides a good end to the paragraph. Fully reworded, this is the language I propose.

In A Game of Thrones (1996), Ned Stark is the virtuous and honorable patriarch of House Stark and the father of six children. The moral compass of the story, he is initially unwavering in his view of loyalty and honor. His family name, Stark, serves as an indication of his resistance to moral compromise, but his boundaries are increasingly tested over the course of the novel. Finding himself a key player in the escalating political intrigue of King's Landing, Ned struggles as his own sense of honor draws him into corrupt goings-on at court. Ultimately, Ned is forced to choose between the safety of his family and doing what is right.

Sean Bean said of the character, "he’s a good man trying to do his best in the middle of this corruption, he’s a fish out of water, he’s used to being up north in Winterfell where people are pretty straight and pragmatic, and he comes down to a place where people are playing games and backstabbing ... he’s a principled man who tries to hold things together. This is a journey that he makes where ultimately his loyalty causes his downfall."

Eric the fever (talk) 04:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty much OK with your rewrite, but I think the sourced phrase "he begins to see the importance of moral and practical compromises to achieve a just end" is important because it actually states that he is understanding the other side; we say he's drawn in and tested but except for that phrase we don't point out any real change or understanding, even at the end he's not compromising, he's giving in. Also I'll try to find a way to work in the "happy to live on the world's edge" part because nothing else says that he likes staying away from court, and as you say it's got a nice citation.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 06:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Lets see, how about this for revised language


 * In A Game of Thrones (1996), Ned Stark is the virtuous and honorable patriarch of House Stark and the father of six children. The moral compass of the story, he is content to remain far from courtly intrigues and is initially unwavering in his view of loyalty and honor. His family name, Stark, serves as an indication of his resistance to moral compromise, but his boundaries are increasingly tested over the course of the novel. Finding himself a key player in the escalating political intrigue of King's Landing, Ned struggles as his own sense of honor draws him into corrupt goings-on at court. Over the course of the novel, he begins to see the importance of moral and practical compromises to achieve a just end, and is ultimately forced to choose between the safety of his family and doing what is right.


 * Sean Bean said of the character, "he’s a good man trying to do his best in the middle of this corruption, he’s a fish out of water, he’s used to being up north in Winterfell where people are pretty straight and pragmatic, and he comes down to a place where people are playing games and backstabbing ... he’s a principled man who tries to hold things together. This is a journey that he makes where ultimately his loyalty causes his downfall."
 * Eric the fever (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I like it! &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 22:39, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Rewording article
So it has been a few weeks since I promised I would start fine tuning the article, and now that I have a bit of free time, here comes round 2. As a very minor note, I think that all character articles under the Song of Ice and Fire project need to follow the same template. I notice this is mostly the case, especially in articles where TAnthony has started working, but the section headings in the table of contents do have different verbiage from article to article. I think that is a relatively easy fix. Now on to the meat of the post

Development and Overview


 * Publishers Weekly noted in 1996 that, despite the honest Ned Stark's intervention in court politics, "no amount of heroism or good intentions can keep the realm under control."

I think there is a better sentence to begin this paragraph. My vision on this section is one that goes over the creation of the Ned Stark character and exactly how he fits into the overall story. I think this statement is best used in the middle of this section rather than the beginning. We spent the first paragraph giving a very general overview of who Ned Stark is, I think this section should get into a bit more literary nuts and bolts. Proposed beginning


 * From his first introduction, Ned is portrayed as a noble hero and set up to be the heart of the story. In the London Review of Books, John Lanchester writes that everything about Ned is designed to gain audience sympathy, from his strong sense of honor and moral compass, to his compassion towards his wife and children.

I think that this is a better way to begin the paragraph, as this section starts right at the very beginning and gives the reader a firm starting point. This transitions to his trip to the capital. Next sentence would be


 * With fifteen chapters devoted to his point of view, more than any single character in the novel, he is presented as the primary character in the series, and the main storyline of A Game of Thrones, the drama in King's Landing, is told entirely from his perspective.

Unchanged, but I my hunch is that this particular sentence could use a bit of rewording. I will think over it over the week.


 * When Ned arrives in the capital, the reader fully expects that eventually things will be set right.

This addition transitions nicely into the sentence that originally was at the beginning
 * However, Publishers Weekly noted that despite the honest Ned Stark's intervention in court politics, no amount of heroism can keep the kingdom under control.

Quote has turned into a paraphrase, stylistic choice, but I have always preferred paraphrases to block quotes in my writing.

Next sentence is unchanged except for the last word in the sentence.
 * After struggling to keep himself and the kingdom on a moral path for the entire novel, the only option that remains to save his family is to put aside his honor; he does it, but is betrayed and executed.

This transitions nicely into a reworded
 * Ultimately he is, from a literary perspective, merely a decoy protagonist.


 * Author George R. R. Martin commented on this misdirection:

"I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it."

Note that I have removed the NYTimes citation, I really like it, but I think we should use that one elsewhere. What do you think of the first paragraph re-write?

Complete paragraph
 * From his first introduction, Ned is portrayed as a noble hero and set up to be the heart of the story. In the London Review of Books, John Lanchester writes that everything about Ned is designed to gain audience sympathy, from his strong sense of honor and moral compass, to his compassion towards his wife and children. :With fifteen chapters devoted to his point of view, more than any single character in the novel, he is presented as the primary character in the series, and the main storyline of A Game of Thrones, the drama in King's Landing, is told entirely from his perspective. :When Ned arrives in the capital, the reader fully expects that eventually things will be set right. However, Publishers Weekly noted that despite the honest Ned Stark's intervention in court politics, no amount of heroism can keep the kingdom under control. :After struggling to keep himself and the kingdom on a moral path for the entire novel, the only option that remains to save his family is to put aside his honor; he does it, but is betrayed and executed. Ultimately he is, from a literary perspective, merely a decoy protagonist. Author George R. R. Martin commented on this misdirection:

"I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it."

Eric the fever (talk) 23:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * For the most part it's fine but yes, the NYT citation should be used somewhere, it's an important statement from an important source and the article needs that. This actually touches on a point I wanted to make. It's nice to have the character articles follow a similar format, but this may not be 100% possible depending on the material at our disposal. For example, there may not be any available info about creation or development for a particular character, or external discussion is limited to the TV series or the novel but not both, etc. etc. Ned, Jon Snow and Tyrion have a very similar structure but I don't know that you could have the same exact section headings in all three and still have them make sense. Obviously my first pass at this article was basically building it around the material at hand, which will often be the case. So you have to be careful about filling in the blanks and making the article say what you want it to say without the sources to back it up. Like the phrase "the reader fully expects that eventually things will be set right" feels like OR/editor POV. And I'm trying to remember where "Ned is portrayed as a noble hero and set up to be the heart of the story" came from, it also feels a little like an opinion. Unless the London Review can back it up. Even our suggesting that Ned is the primary character because he has the most chapters is pushing it. It's all true but ... &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 00:06, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

How about this for rewording
 * From his first introduction, Ned is portrayed as a noble hero and set up to be the heart of the story . In the London Review of Books, John Lanchester writes that everything about Ned is designed to gain audience sympathy, from his strong sense of honor and moral compass, to his compassion towards his wife and children. :With fifteen chapters devoted to his point of view, more than any single character in the novel, he is presented as the primary character in the series, and the main storyline of A Game of Thrones, the drama in King's Landing, is told entirely from his perspective. However when Ned Stark arrives in the capital, no amount of heroism can keep the kingdom under control despite his best efforts. After struggling to keep himself and the kingdom on a moral path for the entire novel, the only option that remains to save his family is to put aside his honor; he does it, but is betrayed and executed. Ultimately he is merely a decoy protagonist. Author George R. R. Martin commented on this misdirection:


 * "I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it."


 * I have found another great citation about the impact that Ned Stark has after his execution http://prospect.org/article/you-win-or-you-die I think  that a paragraph incorporating that reference would be the ideal place for the removed NYT citation.

Eric the fever (talk)