Talk:Neighborhoods of Milwaukee/Archive 1

Non compliance - no uncited and POV assertions, article not tourist guide
I added the noncompliant tag - this article is full of unverified, uncited, original research, much of which borderlines on lacking NPOV. Examples include statements like:
 * "Known for its affordable rents, safety..."
 * "Generally they are attracted by the eclectic housing stock and close proximity to downtown"
 * "A neighborhood noted for its strong community organization..."
 * "An [sic] neighborhood with a notorious reputation..."

Either reliable sources must be provided for any such subjective claims, or they must be removed. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * From just skimming the list, seem like they are all are actual places, though. Specifically, they are s. --Benn Newman 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * None of them are association districts, although a few of the neighborhoods do have one or more defined within the locale... it's more about identity. The different neighborhoods grew out of the original towns (downtown area), smaller and distinct settlements farther out, ethnic communities, and then subdivisions named after the developers or farmer whom owned the land. As I mentioned at Talk:East Side, Milwaukee, the List of Milwaukee neighborhoods has gotten away from being a bulleted Wikipedia list with brief descriptions and links to separate articles (when warranted by notability) and is now more of an eclectic collection. Maybe one of these days I'll completely rewrite the list and correct this with historical data and descriptions from a well researched source, but am not interested in getting in to an edit war. Sulfur 19:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Returning, let's try to stick with the |facts here, not opinions or fluff. Thanks. -- Zim Zala Bim ( talk ) 00:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Returning again, this article seems to have gotten worse, full of many uncited and POV assertions. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for neighbordhood associations to repeat their rhetoric. -- Zim Zala Bim talk  01:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Further, any claims like "predominanty Hispanic" or "having a renaissance" and the like need citations. This is an encyclopedia, not a tourist guide.-- Zim Zala Bim talk  21:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Riverwest" section was way too long - notice of revision
The Riverwest section was way too long (plus the tone had become un-encyclopedic, i.e., didn't cite sources and detailed organizations and people within neighborhood at too great of detail). I did a bit of work on this section for the article and shortened it back to make it more concise and so on. I also inserted several requests for citations/references. What I did may be seen as drastic, and that is why I am adding this section to the discussion page. So, below is the original text in its entirety (for reference). And perhaps a Riverwest, Milwaukee article is in order... along the lines of other Milwaukee neighborhoods were an overview on an all neighborhoods page wasn't enough, see Bay View, Milwaukee, East Side, Milwaukee, Granville, Wisconsin, Historic Third Ward, Milwaukee, Jones Island, Milwaukee, Menomonee River Valley, Milwaukee, and Lake, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin.--Restecp 06:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Riverwest is a neighborhood located west of the Milwaukee River and east of Holton Street, situated between Milwaukee's East Side and Harambee neighborhoods. The main east-west arterial streets--Capitol Drive, Locust Street, and North Avenue--connect Riverwest to the East Side and the UWM area via bridges. The main north-south arterial streets--Holton Street and Humboldt Boulevard--connect Riverwest to the downtown area, the lower East Side, and the suburbs of Glendale and Shorewood.

Riverwest has many of its own festivals including Locust Street Days with its Beer Run, Rockerbox (motorcycle & scooter rally), Center Street Daze, and Riverwest Art Walk - Wisconsin's largest walking tour of artists' homes and studios, neighborhood galleries and various alternative spaces. Riverwest has its own neighborhood history book, Riverwest: A Community History (COA 2003) by Tom Tolan.

Primarily a residential neighborhood, after the 1990s and a long period of decline, Riverwest saw some new housing and commercial development amid rising property values and increasing owner-occupancy.

Riverwest is noted for its racial and ethnic diversity including large numbers of African-Americans and Caucasians as well as growing Iranian, Russian, Asian and Hispanic populations. Compared to the East Side, Riverwest features generally cheaper rents in its bungalows, duplexes, and "Polish flats". And with the neighborhood's proximity to the East Side bound University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, a sizable college student population resides in Riverwest. This population increased with the construction and opening of a new student dormitory in Riverwest along North Avenue and the Milwaukee River in 2007-08. A second dormitory is now being constructed on the opposite bank of the river, also along North Ave.

Riverwest has become well known for its volunteer organizations that aim at improving the community. The Riverwest Investment Cooperative is a housing rehab co-op that aims to increase owner-occupancy and quality housing. The Riverwest Neighborhood Network helps residents connect and share information online. The Riverwest Neighborhood Association (RNA) has been in existence since 2001, as has the Riverwest Currents, which provides the area with its own monthly newspaper. The Riverwest Grocery Co-Op & Cafe began about the same time as the RNA and the Currents. All three institutions owe their existence to long-time resident Vince Bushell who either conceived of them and/or made them possible through his personal efforts and as a past employee of the local YMCA-CDC (Community Development Corporation). Janice Christensen has been Bushell's main partner in many of these projects and continues to work for the YMCA-CDC. (Bushell is publisher of the Riverwest Currents, and Christensen is its editor-in-chief.) As the main architect of the Neighborhood Strategic Plan (NSP) for the Riverwest, Harambee, and Lower East Side neighborhoods, Bushell had a key role in the planning and execution of Riverwest's revitalization efforts since 2000, as NSPs direct the use of federal Community Development Block Grant money that is allocated by the City to help improve targeted neighborhoods like Riverwest. Along with Christensen and Bushell, Tess Reiss was a third major partner for several years, assisting with the RNA, the Currents, event organizing, and running a large neighborhood email group.

Riverwest's home-grown institutions like the grocery co-op, the independent newspaper anyone can write for, and various cottage industries are often taken as an indicator of the neighborhood's "counter-culture" population but may also be seen as signs of "gentrification" or the resurgence of mostly white, middle-class residents who predominately create and participate in these groups. This has been a frequent point of concern, especially among older residents who grew up during the Civil Rights era.

Bronzeville and Harambee
Please stop editing neighborhoods you clearly know nothing about. Let the Harambee and Bronzeville changes stand! Bronzeville= A *former* neighborhood (ie, "was" not "is" a neighborhood) and Harambee is a broader area that encompasses the former Bronzeville today. Most neighborhood groups use the name "Harambee" and not Bronzeville. If you'd like references, I'd be happy to get them. -- unsigned comment


 * hey "unsigned comment", here are some references for this discussion (which are now in the article): -+-"Bronzeville" is a term used throughout the United States and applied to any historic area of a city populated primarily by blacks. -+-Bronzeville was an African-American neighborhood that historically was situated between what is now the Harambee neighborhood and the North Division neighborhood. Specifically, Bronzeville was bordered by State Street on the south, North Avenue on the north, 3rd street on the east and 12th street on the west. -+-Today there is a rebuilding and rebranding of the commercial area of nearby North Avenue and Martin Luther King Jr. Drive into "Bronzeville", including many new businesses and the Black Holocaust Museum. --Restecp 06:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "Bronzeville" in the Tom Barrett era refers specifically to his effort to create a black entertainment district with some cosmetic/symbolic references to the original Bronzeville destroyed during Frank Zeidler's freeway-building mania/war on "blight," i.e. minority neighborhoods. The project has stagnated and is widely considered a failure that never achieved any real acceptance in the black community. Maybe that will change--there has been some growth--but it seems pretty stagnant now. 174.102.194.157 (talk) 05:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Harambee North vs. South
I removed this vague, unsourced editorializing: "As a lower to middle-class, predominantly African-American neighborhood, Harambee has seen an influx of upper income residents to its south, along its border with Brewers Hill while the northern end is also enjoying extensive residential rehabilitation through the partnership of the City with churches, private businesses, philanthropy, neighborhood groups, business improvement districts, non-profit community development corporations, and the police department."

Harambee is too big and diverse to generalize about income levels. The same rehab processes and effects going on in "Harambee North" can be said about Brewers Hill or Riverwest. We can use 2000 and soon 2010 census data to make specific statements about wealth/poverty concentrations and how/where it is changing or not changing--that would be meaningful. Along the southern end of Harambee, the perception that there is "an influx of upper income residents" is completely baseless. It is a perception of people on the north end mentioned in the HGNI plan which appears to have been created with zero involvement from the south end residents.

I have lived on the south end for about 5 years, and I can only think of maybe 1-2 households where combined adult income is over $80,000. (Countywide median income is around $40,000 and the 6th aldermanic district isn't too far below that.) Again, check census data for specific areas in light of on-the-ground realities. Depending on what you include or exclude, you can get figures to show a lot of different things which may or may not describe a realistic profile.

The southern Harambee area between North and Center has at least 2 active gangs, a lot of foreclosures, vacant properties that have been getting burned and condemned since 2007. Most of North Ave. on the north side is owned by the City of Milwaukee. You can find prostitutes but not an "upper income" resident. Holton Street has been a chronically blighted area. Abstentee landlords, slumlords and speculators were the majority of "new investment" before the real estate bust, and the City was happy to inflate assessments. Now those assessments are going back down. The typical stable home-owner in south Harambee (who is less and less typical and not because new owners are arriving) is probably a middle to retirement age african american individual or couple who works or used to work for a governmental or paragovernmental organization and has been there for 10-30+ years.

I think what is accurate to say is that the north end of Harambee has more concentrated crime, poverty and is a virtually all-black neighborhood. The crime levels (and poverty--which correlates with black populations on the north side, latinos and 2nd-3rd generation polish residents on the south) has to do with proximity to I-43, north side suburbs and the north central ghetto, Port Washington and Silver Spring roads. The drug traffic and drug houses line that path and cut east on Keefe and Burleigh, south on Buffum and Holton.

The southern end has gotten a little more mixed in the past 10-15 years. I think I'm on the only block that is a about a 40-40-20% mix of white, black and latino residents. It's a nice block surrounded by a lot of trouble and ruin. This perplexes and distresses some people who interpret it as a gentrification threat. They are not distressed by Halyard Park, which has higher values than Brewers Hill and has been there longer because that too is a virtually all black neighborhood. Dan Knauss (talk) 18:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * hey dknauss, work some of these rants into the actual article, with proper sources of course (unless this is just "expert" stuff of the top of your head). be bold and edit, thank you. --76.230.146.109 (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Harambee and Riverwest: emerging divisions or sub-neighborhoods
Re. changes on the Beerline and related issues, especially for Riverwest and Harambee--the boundaries are being redrawn in many ways.

How is "neighborhood" being defined here, and what are the criteria for including one? There is the "official" City of Milwaukee map of neighborhoods, but it is aging and was simply a composite of prevailing opinion as the DCD interpreted it in the 1990s. Technically the Beerline is not on the official list, and the HGNIC (Harambee Great Neighborhoods Initiative--note the plural) is totally rewriting Harambee as a collection of 5+ areas that they call "communities" or "neighborhoods." These areas are centered on organizations and facilities that are being used as funding targets and organizing areas by HGNIC, presumably because they are the most cohesive, existing rallying points for stable, community-positive residents. Harambee from Center to North is a virtual blank in their maps and literature, so some significant redrawing is being generated this way, potentially.

If you want to get really creative, you could look at how gang territories and ghetto areas identify themselves as "neighborhoods" of a sort, overlapping with and usually cutting across/disregarding the "official" neighborhood identities. They may actually act as anti-neighborhoods and anti-neighborhood-group groups, defining different centers, identities, and territories that challenge and demoralize the official ones, which are aligned with municipal gov, social services and law enforcement. E.g., Atk Town with a lot of local gangs using street names and block numbers for their own name. E.g., Buffum Street Boys, West-Cly Boys, Vliet Street Gangster Disciples, 1-9 Nash Street Boys. Dan Knauss (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * the "official" city of milwaukee map of neighborhoods from the 1990s is provided as a link on the bottom of the article's page. again, work this stuff into the article Dknauss, with citations. If you want gang neighborhoods, perhaps you should (creatively) start another article. Perhaps an, as you say, "anti-neighborhoods" of milwaukee page. --76.230.146.109 (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

the north shore
removed "north shore" section. this is a "neighborhoods of (the city of) milwaukee" page. not interested in the "communities" (/suburbs) of milwaukee/ozaukee counties. --76.230.146.109 (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Naming of article
Barring any Wikipedia naming convention I'm not familiar with, I feel this article should be renamed to Neighborhoods of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, or better yet, Milwaukee neighborhoods. See titles:  Sulfur 00:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Redirects are in place. I think Neighborhoods of Milwaukee is fine. There really isn't a naming convention, see Category:Lists of neighborhoods in U.S. cities. --Restecp 06:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Some sources
FYI, on Riverwest and Harambee (and many other neighborhoods) Urban Anthropology (UrbAn) http://www.urban-anthropology.org/ has done documentary films and has written reports based on extensive interviews and research. http://www.riverwestcurrents.org/2004/August/002108.html http://www.urban-anthropology.org/Milwaukee_calendarOctDec.html. The films have been shown on the local PBS stations, and I believe they have at times aired on MATA and the city channel. In 2004, another Riverwest documentary by Dan Jones for was aired (filed in 2003). (aired on Channel 10, MPTV, Thursday, May 20 and Wednesday, May 26)

Older list of media about Riverwest in relation to development and gentrification: http://www.riverwestcurrents.org/gent-arch.htm

Also of note:

Book: Bronzeville: A Milwaukee Lifestyle, by Ivory Abena Black with a preface by Reuben Harpole. (Abena is a cultural anthropologist who worked with UrbAn.) 2005, rev. ed 2006 ISBN: 0-9771065-0-0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HxCJCvv5PE

Article: "The Practices and Process of Neighborhood: The (Re)Production of Riverwest, Milwaukee, Wisconsin" by Deanna H. Schmidt, Dept. of Geography, UWM. Published in Urban Geography, 2008, 29, 5, pp. 473–495. DOI: 10.2747/0272-3638.29.5.473 / http://bellwether.metapress.com/content/qg1507v642124t21/ This article is related to Schmidt's 2008 dissertation, (Re)Production of Social Space: Community, Homeownership, and Stability, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 1970-1990, which is available here: http://www.uwm.edu/~deannas/Schmidt%20Dissertation.pdf Her other work may be of interest also: http://www.uwm.edu/~deannas/Schmidt-CV.pdf. I think Schmidt may have done some of the research for UrbAn that went into their Riverwest documentary.

174.102.194.157 (talk) 14:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Harambee Section Tagged as Advert / Promotional
I see there has been a fair amount of discussion about this portion of the article above from several years ago, but in its current form the Harambee section has multiple problems. I tagged it as advertisement-like because peppered throughout the passage are inappropriate bits like this:

"The Harambee neighborhood has some impressive resources. Its historic homes have attracted new interest in recent years. Its prime location, only a few minutes north of Downtown, is an increasingly important asset. Its rolling landscape gives it a visual variety not found in many Milwaukee neighborhoods. And it is a neighborhood of churches, scores of them."

Also, the section is almost completely unreferenced for the number of claims made. And the section is really too long. If there ends up being enough quality, verifiable content, then perhaps it should have its own article with a shorter summary on this page. But first things first.

There does seem to be a fair amount of probably-accurate and probably-verifiable content here; it's just a matter of deleting the bad stuff, preserving/streamlining the good stuff, and getting things sourced, but this will obviously take a while, especially since the good and bad content is interwoven. Is anyone else interested in taking this on? It's a bit outside my interest, but if no one else wants to improve the section, I will circle back in the coming days and at least get rid of the most egregious promotional language. Wantonlife (talk) 01:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

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 * All citation URLs seem to work at article, although link #10 here is dead. The checked parameter has been restored, although in a somewhat different form. Dhtwiki (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

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