Talk:Neil Harvey/Archive 1

Peak Years
In another attempt to write about this innings I have replaced

He defiantly scored an unbeaten 92 in the second innings as Australia fell for 184 against the hostile pace of Frank Tyson and Brian Statham on a difficult batting pitch. His innings almost resulted in an unlikely Australian victory. He featured in a stubborn 39 run last wicket partnership with Bill Johnston before Johnston fell to give a 38 run loss.

With

This was followed by a low scoring Second Test in Sydney when Australia were reduced to 4/77 when they needed 223 to win on a poor wicket against the lethal pace of Frank Tyson and Brian Statham. Harvey farmed the bowling ruthlessly, protecting the tailenders and counter-attacking the England fast bowlers. Schoolboys who were watching the game leaned over the fence as he batted to beckon he boundaries towards them. Last man Bill Johnston came in at 9/145, but protected by Harvey he only had to face 16 balls in 40 minutes and they almost produced an unlikely Australian victory. Together they had added 39 for the last wicket and halved the runs required when Johnston came in, but not enough and England won by 38 runs. Harvey played what many observers thought was the greatest innings of his life, a defiant, unbeaten 92, exactly half of the Australian innings of 184 in which no other batsmen reached 15. --Philipjelley (talk) 13:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Opinions of modern players
While I don't want to lower the tone of the article, is Harvey's penchant for slating modern players (ie: virtually anyone younger than him) worth mentioning? There'd be plenty of citeable stuff...Thedangerouskitchen 09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

THe record about being the youngest player doesn't clarify how old he was or what the record is/was. Maybe we can work it out mathematically by searching for his birth date, but the article would read much better, if we'd mention this ("...making him the youngest Australian to score a Test century, beating out Archie Jackson) spurrymoses 21:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

GA review comments
great article, if you manage to dig out another couple of photos, this article will be good to try at FAC. --08:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * remove "early" in 1948 and 1963
 * ''done.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "was regarded as Wisden as the finest" - change to "was regarded BY Wisden as the finest". guess, there is a going to a link somewhere below.
 * ''done.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * " He was then the youngest member " - remove "then"
 * ''done.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "regarded as one of the finest teams in history" - guess, that there is going to be a link in the main article
 * ''Well it does link to the Invincibles, which links to the 1948 tour. What's going on??Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "opening period of his Australian career was particularly fruitful," - suggestion - remove this phrase as the data following it stands by itself.
 * ''done tweaks.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Harvey was a mercurial batsman of great artistry and style." - is this your prose or from a source. I think it is best to leave this out as this might trigger POV comments during FA
 * ''Yeah, attributed to commentators. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * " His batting against spin bowling in particular was a crowd pleaser, in particular his extravagant footwork" - 2 instances of "in particular". Also, the sentence has no ending. copyedit required for the sentence
 * ''done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Following the retirement of Sir Donald Bradman, he became Australia's leading batsman, with a similar ability to change the mood of matches." - i am not too much in favor of having this sentence, but if you feel strongly about it, please retain
 * ''Well I noted that the commentators regarded him as such, ....Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "He bowled occasional off spin from a three to four pace approach, taking only three wickets in his Test career" - i don't think, you need to use the term "ONLY" as he was a part-time bowler
 * ''Well I think the only should be noted as he rarely bowled at all....one wicket in thirty Tests. Even most part timers like M Waugh, Sehwag, Tendulkar, they will maybe take at least one wicket every four-five Test matches. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "He had a quiet and unassuming manner, in complete contrast to his dynamic batting, and his non-smoking, non-drinking set him apart from the prevailing cricket culture of his period" - personal style, don't mix with cricketing style. make it into a seperate para
 * ''Since we don't have the para on family life yet, this can't be done unless we have a one sentence para. So I moved it into the second one, since it is a bit more general and talks about baseball as well. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * named an in the Australian " - remove "an"
 * ''Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Add a stub article for "Ray Harvey" before this article goes to FA
 * ''Done. Not very good at all, but it exists. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "becoming the youngest Australian Test centurion.[1]" - incomplete sentence
 * ''Fixed.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "with Bradman retired and Sid Barnes taking an extended break" - verb inconsistency - retiring/taking or retired/took
 * ''Tweaked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "half centuries int eh Second " - spell error
 * ''Fixed.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As a side note, when i reviewed Bill Johnston, i remember reading that his poor bowling was to be blamed for aussie defeat and here i read that Harvey's slump was the reason. seems to me that you are good to be an Indian national team selector.
 * ''Well when you lose it is usually a few key players being out of form....not just one. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Australia's were not to again win " - need copyedit
 * ''fixed.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it was AG Milka singh and not A. G. Kripal Singh? There is not milka singh in the list of Indian Test cricketers. Nope, here is the wikilink A. G. Milkha Singh
 * ''Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The 1961 tour to England was Harvey's last on foreign soil and he started well with a 114 in the drawn First Test at Edgbaston. It also marked his only Test as captain, " - the sentences don't gel well. when i read the first part of second sentence, it implies that he was the captain of the first test and not the second test
 * ''done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a part of an aggressive strategy that Harvey and Benaud had planned, with the promise of attacking strategy geared at forcing a result, and a pledge not to engage in time wasting." - needs copyedit
 * ''Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Bradman, universally regarded as the greatest batsman in cricket history" - i think this is stated atleast 3 times. i think since this is harvey's article, we don't need the reference to Bradman as the greatest cricketer of all times, even once.
 * ''Well I removed it from the lead, but I think we need to note that when he retired, the only other AUstralian in front of him was the one everyone thinks was miles ahead of the rest of the world. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "From 1967 to 1979, he was an Australian selector" - any interesting/significant selections. please add more data on his selection terms
 * World Series Cricket. Bill Lawry sacked as captain.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I am sorry for the delay in closure as i had to go out of town. I think the article is GA material though the comments below needs to be addressed before the article goes to FA. Another thing i noticed - the pics are way too large, maybe need to reduce them. --Kalyan 18:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Minor fix needed
The 4th para of the ==Later years and personal life== section includes a quote which seems incomplete: "and they grizzle if there's . the ball does a little bit off". Should that single dot be 3 dots or is there a missing word/s? &mdash;Moondyne 07:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Bland, repetitive sentence structure
This example typifies much of the article. Harvey scored a century in his first innings and 29 in the second as Australia cruised to an innings victory. Ideally, variation with the sentence style will make this an entertaining read and gives it more chance to acheive FA status. GizzaDiscuss  &#169; 08:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Refs
Can the other books cited (Pollard, Cashman, Haigh) along with Benaud be added in the References section too? Thanks GizzaDiscuss  &#169; 08:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Queries

 * 1) In the centre of the first paragraph in the Senior Player section, there is this sentence: The season also saw the first tie in Sheffield Shield history, between Harvey's Victorians and Craig's New South Welshmen at St. Kilda Oval. Does St. Kilda Oval, refer to Junction Oval? It is the only red link on the entire page. GizzaDiscuss  &#169; 08:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) The second paragraph in "Early Years." Briefly playing for Fitzroy Football Club, Harvey gave up the sport and played baseball during winter. I assume "the sport" refers to Aussie Rules, except non-Australian readers wouldn't have a clue. Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Discuss  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 08:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Near the beginning of "Style," A short man at 172cm. Thats a touch more than five and a half feet. It's not tall but short, especially at that time? <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Discuss  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 08:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) First sentence in "Senior Player" Upon returning to Australia, with the retirement of captain and vice-captain Ian Johnson and Keith Miller of Victoria and New South Wales respectively, Harvey became Victorian captain. How is Keith Miller's retirement significant if he played for NSW? To compare with a modern-day example, I don't think Lara's recent retirement has affected Ponting's cricketing future all that much. Or if it refers to national c and vc, it should be expressed more clearly. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Discuss  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 22:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Middle of first para in "Early years" - Cricket and cricket talk was an integral part of the daily family life. Cricket talk? I think it is assumed that cricket may mean more than just playing cricket, otherwise playing cricket would have been mentioned. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Discuss  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 08:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Text dump of comments
Note, most of these are possible alternatives, not 'you must do this or you fail', and some are even questions :)

L. = link.


 * "sharp fielder and occasional off-spin bowler" - if there's an article for part-time bowler, link?
 * "Harvey followed his elder brother Merv in making his Test debut in January 1948 aged 19 and three months." - Did Merv make his debut in the same month at the same age?
 * I don't like the "senior batsmen" thing being mentioned twice in the lead, in the same para, but no-where near each other in that para
 * "Harvey continued in the role until the end of his career" - which role? VC? hasn't been stated
 * "on an erratic surface" - clar. pitch for non-Cricket readers
 * "centuries for Australia when Harvey retired" - would "at the time Harvey retired" work better?
 * "172cm" - link cm, maybe provide imperial measurements in brackets
 * "According to Johnnie Moyes, "the sight of his slim figure, neat and trim-looking, always capless, coming to bat brought new hope for spectators. He will never prod a half volley or decline the challenge of a long hop..he will go looking for the ball which he can hit for four."" needs a direct reference, it's a quote.
 * "an agile slips catcher" - link for slips?
 * "and his non-smoking, non-drinking set him apart from the prevailing cricket culture of his period" - is a word missing after "non-drinking"?
 * "When not travelling overseas on cricket tours, Harvey played baseball in the winter for Fitzroy" L. Baseball, Fitzroy
 * "He was twice named in the Australian baseball team but the team was named only for the distinction accorded on the players. That is, they never competed. " - sentence too short, convert into one
 * "Harvey's fielding abilities were regarded by Wisden as the "finest outfielder in the world" during his career" reference, direct quote
 * "As a baseball infielder Harvey developed a half round arm throw; its speed and accuracy caused many batsmen to be run out while attempting a run" - link infielder if possible, also clar. that the run-outs happened in which sport.
 * "His baseball training also influenced his habit of catching the ball above head height, with which he rarely dropped catches" - second part of the sentence is loose.
 * "Harvey was the fourth of six boys born to Horace Harvey" - Horace and ...
 * " In conditions conducive to producing batsmen rather than bowlers, they played cricket using a tennis ball on cobblestones or a marble rebounding from the backyard pavement" L. bowlers, batsmen, tennis ball, cobblestones
 * "The boys went to George Street State School" - L school?
 * "Cricket and cricket talk was an integral part of the daily family life." - reword, focus more on being part of family tradition or similar - hard to believe cricket was part of life every day
 * "All six brothers, the other two being Brian and Harold also played for Fitzroy in district cricket" - is that missing a comma?
 * "Except for Harold, all five represented Victoria in baseball." seems to be redundant somehow (either the "all five" bit [as there were actually six], or the except for bit)
 * " In a school final, he once made 112 of the total of 140" - team total?
 * "By this stage he had transferred to Collingwood Technical School" L. CTS?
 * "Briefly playing for Fitzroy Football Club, Harvey gave up" - After briefly...?
 * "making 69 in his second match against the guile of Doug Wright" - guile?
 * "opponents had no doubt that he would become a Test player" - opponents expressed they had no doubt, maybe?

That's some ranting for the first couple of sections.  Daniel  09:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * ...and some more ranting for the next couple of sections...


 * "in the last two Tests against India. " - link India cricket team
 * "at the Adelaide Oval as Australia swept to an innings victory." - maybe replace swept, given it's cricket meaning
 * "him for the Fifth Test on his home ground at Melbourne" - somehow incorporate a link to the MCG or Melbourne
 * Daniel-Bryant
 * Daniel-Bryant "towards the square leg boundary" - L. sq. leg
 * Daniel-Bryant "him a place on the 1948 Invincibles tour" - relink Invincibles, maybe?
 * Daniel-Bryant "but after adapting his style, improved his performance" - would this read better with an extra 'he'?
 * "not out against Lancashire at Manchester" - link Manchester, either ground or town
 * "Australia completed a world record successful run chase of 3/404" - firstly, reference needed. secondly, does this still stand?
 * "scoring 17 in the Fifth and final Test" - does it need both fifth and final?
 * "batting order on the 1949-50 tour of South Africa" - L. Sth Africa cricket team
 * "Harvey rose to the challenge by establishing several Australian records. His Test figures of 660 at 132.00 was the most by an Australian in the country" - statistics instead of figures? clarify that it's in Sth Africa?
 * "to the victory target in the" - victory target of ...
 * "This was followed by his unbeaten 151 at Durban, regarded as one of his finest Test innings" - references, please
 * "Having being dismissed for 75 in the first innings, Australia had slumped to 3/59 in pursuit of a victory target of 336" - was Aus dismissed for 75, or Harvey? Remember that this is a biography...
 * "It was the first Test in which Harvey had played and Australia did not win" - reference?
 * "He had amassed four centuries in consecutive Tests in the series and had scored six in his first nine Tests" - that's about the nth use of the word amassed in the section.
 * "Harvey's triple figure average from his first two Test seasons could not be maintained" - could not, or was not?
 * "when Australia hosted England in 1950-51" - L. England
 * "with the West Indies touring Australia" - L. West Indies
 * "On a slow pitch difficult for stroke play,[7] and Harvey scored 109 and 52 in Brisbane where Australia grounded out a victory in the First Test" - that 'and' seems strange
 * "Harvey made consecutive centuries with 84 and 116 in Adelaide" - clar. that the centuries weren't in Adelaide (84 != century), confusing when first read.
 * "Harvey accumulated 834 Test runs at 92.66 in the series. This surpassed Bradman's aggregate of 806 runs in 1931-32 as a series record against South Africa." - could that be combined into one sentence?
 * "and McCabe were the others" - full name for McCabe, link.
 * "He also managed half centuries in the Second and fourth Tests" - inconsistent caps
 * "he was named as one of the Wisden Cricketers of the Year" - would appending a "for [year]" be better?
 * "helping to compile 8/601 to set up an innings victory" - declared?
 * "Despite this, he was by far the most productive batsman in the 1954-55 Australian season, accumulating 1009 runs ahead of Les Favell's 663" - did he score 1009 (therefore around 400 more than Fav), or 1009 more than Fav (therefore around 1700)?
 * "scoring exactly 133 in both the First and Second Tests" - no need for exactly, unless it was "exactly 100" etc.
 * "Harvey scored 38 and 41* as" 0- L. not out
 * "century of his career, 204 in the Fifth Test in Kingston" - L. Kingston
 * Link Sabina Park. Like QP Oval and Bourda for the other Tests. Tintin 12:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "of a Test total of 8/758, setting up" - again, declared?
 * "Surrey spin twins of Laker and Tony Lock" - link Laker Lock, even if it's red.
 * "spun England to an innings victory." - maybe just 'helped'?
 * "The Fourth Test in Manchester was the low point, when Harvey managed a pair, falling both times to Laker" - clarify what a pair is.

Still three sections to go *sigh*...back with more ranting in a bit.  Daniel  09:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)