Talk:Neofolk/Archive 1

Reversion
I reverted to the original addition of the article wherein the term is indeed related to the tense in which the German use of 'folkish' is the cognate for 'folk' in this music genre. The individual saying that it did not have such origins gave no explaination and it seems completely POV. Use this area to defend such a case. In the meantime if there is another dispute it can first change the article so that it is stated as a possible origin, but the dispute needs backing. 67.5.213.6

Rewrite
I rewrote this into a stub, which needs a lot of expanding, but the previous article was simply completely wrong. Neofolk is used fairly generically, and differently by many different people. There are sub-genres, but they overlap and also are not precisely defined. Of course, some discussion of them all should be made, but to claim that "neofolk" is only the neoclassical/militaristic music is simply incorrect. Ostara, Sol Invictus, and Of the Wand and the Moon are more along the lines of acoustic-guitar folk music, and also widely considered neofolk (not to mention the "acoustic folk period" of Death in June). --Delirium 06:23, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Stub Killed
I killed the stub because it was highly inaccurate and extremely vague. With the consultation of a few other friends in the Soulseek neofolk channel, we created something more accurate and detailed, though it still needs some filling out. --Bloodofox 06/20/05


 * The article is now fleshing out. We will continue to expand on it.

--Bloodofox 06/29/05

Relation To Folk Music
i think it is wrong. the article now includes only death in june and some imitators who sounds exactly the same. the section about C93 is insulting as the best albums of di6 were recorded with david tibet and the article represent him as talentless. it is also wrong to claim that neo folk has such a strong relation to folk music. it is much closer to indie rock both musically and thematically. topheth 09/07/05


 * This article was written while examining the wave of artists that were influenced by Death In June as well as various political and cultural factors that lead to the revival of this sort of music. I challenge you to listen to a Sonnentau, Waldsonne or Neun Welten album and somehow think it is related to indie rock instead of simply traditional folk music with modern elements. The same goes for pretty much all of neofolk music. Perhaps you're thinking of radio pop like Ostara?


 * As for Current 93, the 'folk' albums that were produced under the banner were created with Douglas P. & later Michael Cashmore. Current 93 didn't play folk music before Douglas P came around or after. Douglas P did. This period of time where Current 93 created folk music can largely be attributed to Douglas P's involvement and later leaving. Current 93 is not mentioned here very much due to that lack of involvement and the relative lack of any involvement whatsoever in any sort of ideological or thematic path. There really is nothing in common between Current 93 and this sorto of music now.


 * I should also note that you're the first person I've seen say anything negative about this article and I do hope you consider my points..
 * Bloodofox 09/08/05


 * the main thing about this article is that it shows only a narrow view of what neofolk is. that is whats wrong with it. I can understand why you do not consider sol invictus, blood axis , current 93 , allerseelen as "pure" neofolk but I think that is wrong. neofolk is not just death in june and others who sound just the same but is also agnivolok , sturmprecht , novy svet and meny more.

now, about the relation to folk music , death in june has nothing to do with folk. some other bands has, but to say that neofolk is a genre of folk music is just wrong. it has folk influances like meny other genres but also other influances from such as punk, british indie rock and ofcourse industrial music which in meny cases (even with the projects you mentioned) is more important than the folk influence.
 * topheth


 * I would agree with you about Sturmpercht (whom I will add) and possibly a few Novy Svet tracks. However, one must really understand that the term 'folk' in 'neofolk' is very obvious. And, yes, this does not apply to most of the DIJ discography.


 * However, there's a big chunk of the DIJ discography that is very obviously heavily influenced by folk music and could be termed as it. I've made note of the post-industrial influence but I think the 'rock' influence is not there in most neofolk music. Keep in mind folk music is what spawned rock music, not vice versa.


 * Again, the term "folk" in "neofolk" obviously notes that this is what the music is. Sometimes people mistake other stuff for this type of music, despite how obvious the genre name is. It's not noise music, it's not bombastic neoclassical martial music but, at the core, it is folk music. It may have elements of these things.. And that is why the name was applied in the first place.
 * Bloodofox 9/23/05

Psych Folk?
How does Neofolk and/or apocalyptic folk relate to Psych folk? Looking at something like the Sleepytime Gorilla Museum's 'Of Natural History...'  I would think that apocalyptic folk describes it rather well... --Morbid-o 19:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It doesn't. There's no relation. Faun Fables, a SGM-related project, does have some apocalyptic folk influence though it doesn't seem very apparent in the music. I wouldn't think it would be appropriate here as then pretty much any type of folk music would be, whereas this article refers to a specific movement.
 * Bloodofox 09/08/05

Strange view of neofolk
This article takes a particularly narrow view of neofolk, as being Germanic and Scandinavian music influenced by Deahh in June. Certainly much of that is neofolk, but is only one branch of it---the term neofolk has been used long before the 2000s. It's generally accepted that Current 93, Death in June, and Sol Invictus were the three primary neofolk groups of the 1980s and early 1990s, and to various degrees created the genre (in particular, David Tibet and Douglas Pearce contributed heavily to each others' albums throughout the 1980s and early 1990s). I've never even heard the term Neuer Deutscher Folk, and it gets nearly no Google hits; what's more, most major neofolk groups have been British. --Delirium 17:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten this again to be less blatantly wrong, though it could certainly still use more work. Please read some history on the scene before screwing up the article again, though.  In particular, the Death in June biography Misery and Purity contains some good historical information, as does the general 1980s history England's Hidden Reverse. --Delirium 17:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Do not mistake the term "neofolk" for "apocalyptic folk." They have two seperate histories and two seperate sections.


 * Nor is the early origins of the "neofolk movement" to be found in the WSD setup, which, by the way, Douglas P was instrumental in helping set up, by his own claim. Amusingly, he later was responsible for it shutting down, too.


 * The term "neofolk" is relatively new and applies specifically to a movement of Germanic and, later, Scandinavian artists that appeared primarily through the influence of Death In June. The term "Neur Deutscher Folk" is what lead to the term "Neofolk." See "The Vanishing Point" interview I referenced for an example of this, which serves as a good point of reference as to this entire article.


 * They may have contributed to one another's albums but this article is about neofolk. It is very obvious that Douglas P's influence brought folk to the Current 93 table, which didn't exist before the collaborations with Douglas P before and, after he left, also disappeared.


 * To the contrary, folk music appeared before these collaborations began on the Death In June discography.


 * Before you make such massive changes, I highly suggest you do more research into your subject.


 * We will be adding an amount of information about Changes, Nico and a few other benchmarks too here soon to further elaborate on this article. Right now, it is intended to be very basic.
 * --bloodofox 10/22/05


 * That's simply incorrect. The term neofolk has been in regular use since the 1980s, and I have myself been purchasing CDs described as "neofolk" since many years before the Vanishing point interview to which you refer.  If you just started listening to neofolk in 2004, you are hardly an expert on the subject.  The term "Neuer Deutscher Folk" is not in regular use, and in any case "neofolk" long predates it; Death in June's albums were being intermittently described as "neofolk" in the late 1980s, and consistently by 1992 (with But, When Ends When the Symbols Shatter?, which is undeniably a neofolk album).  In addition, Fire+Ice's albums starting in 1992 are clearly neofolk (even by your definition, since they're inspired by Icelandic runic mythology).  And since Ian Read of Fire+Ice was previously in Sol Invictus from 1987-1991, I think you can see the connection with the 1980s neofolk scene. Please refrain from editing articles on which you have no information, and go read the books I suggested first. --Delirium 18:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Do not mistake the term "neofolk" for "apocalyptic folk." They have two seperate histories and two seperate sections.


 * Nor is the early origins of the "neofolk movement" to be found in the WSD setup, which, by the way, Douglas P was instrumental in helping set up, by his own claim. Amusingly, he later was responsible for it shutting down, too.


 * The term "neofolk" is relatively new and applies specifically to a movement of Germanic and, later, Scandinavian artists that appeared primarily through the influence of Death In June. The term "Neur Deutscher Folk" is what lead to the term "Neofolk." See "The Vanishing Point" interview I referenced for an example of this, which serves as a good point of reference as to this entire article.


 * They may have contributed to one another's albums but this article is about neofolk. It is very obvious that Douglas P's influence brought folk to the Current 93 table, which didn't exist before the collaborations with Douglas P before and, after he left, also disappeared.


 * To the contrary, folk music appeared before these collaborations began on the Death In June discography.


 * Before you make such massive changes, I highly suggest you do more research into your subject.


 * We will be adding an amount of information about Changes, Nico and a few other benchmarks too here soon to further elaborate on this article. Right now, it is intended to be very basic.

--bloodofox 10/22/05


 * That's simply incorrect. The term neofolk has been in regular use since the 1980s, and I have myself been purchasing CDs described as "neofolk" since many years before the Vanishing point interview to which you refer.  If you just started listening to neofolk in 2004, you are hardly an expert on the subject.  The term "Neuer Deutscher Folk" is not in regular use, and in any case "neofolk" long predates it; Death in June's albums were being intermittently described as "neofolk" in the late 1980s, and consistently by 1992 (with But, When Ends When the Symbols Shatter?, which is undeniably a neofolk album).  In addition, Fire+Ice's albums starting in 1992 are clearly neofolk (even by your definition, since they're inspired by Icelandic runic mythology).  And since Ian Read of Fire+Ice was previously in Sol Invictus from 1987-1991, I think you can see the connection with the 1980s neofolk scene. Please refrain from editing articles on which you have no information, and go read the books I suggested first. --Delirium 18:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Please show references to the term "neofolk," in this context, being used in the 1980's. The term even being in use to describe this sort of music would also be extremely helpful and educational, as well as beneficial to this article. If you have scans or articles, I'd like to see them so we can add it to this article.


 * As it stands, we have seen no evidence of this term being used in this context before the mid-90's, since the very specifically defined wave of artists that appeared under a variety of conditions, largely spurred by Douglas P's constant collaboration, show support and verbal support.


 * As for "Neuer Deutscher Folk," this is absolutely vital for this article as the term "neofolk" is simply a shortened version of the translated "New Germanic Folk." I suggest you refer to the interview I referenced with Douglas P on The Vanishing Point, which illustrates this very clear.


 * Think about the term "neofolk." Does it make sense otherwise? No. Does it make sense in this context? Yes. Neuer Deutscher Folk = New Germanic Folk = New Folk = Neofolk. It's very clear.


 * For your reference, I by no means first heard neofolk music in 2004. Nor did I state this. The fact that I ran the definitive Death In June Interview Archive back in 2001, which was later absorbed into the -official- Death In June website should say maybe a little something about that. This includes the fan-made "Misery And Purity."


 * Regarding Fire + Ice/Ian Read, the simple statement you made about "Icelandic runic mythology" is eyebrow raising. I suggest reading some basic information about pagan Iceland, Heathenry and, well, runes in general then looking over the F+I discography. What does Iceland have to do with Fire + Ice? Little. Runes? Plenty. You should honestly brush up on these subjects if you've like to define this genere, since Heathenism has a huge part to do with it and was one of the major forces that lead to it in the first place.


 * If you'd like to contribute, instead of attempting to grossly misrepresent a subject and come up with references, while all the while taking jabs, you're more than welcome.


 * In the mean time, you're really just going to get reverted back by those of us that have been regularly maintaining it since earlier this year.
 * --bloodofox 10/22/05

Sorry, bloodofox, but you are wrong about Neofolk being derived from "Neuer Deutscher Folk". I live in Germany and have been involved in Industrial/Neofolk - Scene since the early 90's. I agree that many of the new bands associated with Neofolk today are german and scandinavian, but fans and musicians of the neofolk genre have never been defined by originating from these countries. Nobody is using the term "Neuer Deutscher Folk" for this kind of music here. Douglas Pearce may have got this impression on his (short) visits to Germany, but this would be a clear misconception, even if he might be some kind of a "godfather" to this scene. In Germany, neofolk scene originated in the early 90's, when some parts of german gothic/industrial scene strongly commited to the work of Di6, C93 and Sol differentiated in some kind of a sub-scene, which spawned some early - mostly epigonal - folk-orientated bands as Anabelle's Garden. There has never been made a clear distinction between apocalyptic, neo- or dark folk; all terms were interchangeably used by certain fanzines (with c93 being called apocalyptic most often because of Tibet's specific imagery). The subscene evolved subsequently and was closely related to post-industrial/power-noise scene (Con-Dom, Whitehouse, Genocide Organ) and the ritual/military industrial scene (Allerseelen, Blutharsch), with a fanbase often wearing camouflage and military style clothes. Bands as Forseti and Sonne Hagal were rooted here, who certainly regard Di6 and Pearce as major influence, but NOT the originator of this scene. Neofolk as a term replaced dark folk and apocalyptic folk to a certain degree and referred now not only to a musical style, but a whole scene of people. As the most common denominator for Germany's neofolk/industrial scene often seems to be the interest for politically provocative bands and symbolism, and there has been a HUGE controversy with german anti-fascist groups since mid-90's, the scene would definitely not stir things further up by adding "deutscher" or "german" to the Neofolk term. The german google entries for NDF either refer to the wicki entry, to Pearce's original comment or are decontextualized singular descriptions for completely different "regular" folk music. 172.182.140.9zarathus

Sabotage
 --krrpt 10/22/05 Reverted article to pre-sabotage version 

Boo Hoo
boo hoo lets whine some more.


 * You still have presented no evidence in favor of your case. I've been listening to neofolk for at least 10 years now, and we called it neofolk back then.  Even "apocalyptic folk" was typically called "apocalyptic neofolk", not "apocalyptic folk" (see, for example, this 2000 Ordo Rosarius Equilibrio review ).  Also, the term "Neuer Deutscher Folk" has nearly no usage anywhere, as can be seen by the number of google hits---Wikipedia is actually the first hit!  Neofolk certainly didn't come from it; even that relatively recent review (2000) I just linked predates it.  As for the origin of the term, it simply means "new folk", and was used to distinguish neofolk from plain-old-folk.  If you would like additional published sources (since sources, not assertions, are what we use at Wikipedia), see Looking for Europe by Andres Diesel and Dieter Gerten, which just came out, and is billed as the "definitive history of neofolk".  That it may not be (the genre is too controversial to have a "definitive" history), but it is certainly a major perspective. --Delirium 23:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "Looking For Europe" has not yet been released. It is still in preorder stage. This is indication number 1 that you don't know what you're talking about here and are attempting to hide behind a smoke veil instead of responding to the posts I made. An interview in 2000 does not equal the term being used before the mid-90's, as I stated before. Since you say you've been listening to "neofolk" for 10 years now, that sounds about right. You do not respond to any of the points I bring up, nor the ones I bring up in the article revisions, instead, you respond that it is "simply wrong" or "nonsense." This does not hold up without a breakdown of my points, as I have the courtesy to do for you. You're playing a game instead of responding to my patient, detailed articles. Attempt to slice it any way you want, Current 93, Steve Stapleton and Coil really have nothing to do with this and the term itself only appeared when the wave of German artists appeared, which spawned the term once it was translated over into English. Prior to your mauling this article, I had next to no criticism and a lot of praise for it. However, your "edits" have ruffled a few feathers. Perhaps you should stick to synth pop. --Bloodofox 10/22/05


 * Might I also remind you of the Wikipedia policy on reverting articles that have been standing in good faith: This feature's function is best described by developer Brion Vibber in this posting: "Its intent is solely to be a timesaving shortcut for reverting mass vandalism... No one should ever be in an edit war, sysops in particular should be aware that that's not cool, so there's no need to think about whether or not 'rollback' should be used in an edit war. It shouldn't, because we shouldn't be in that position in the first place." Rollbacks should be used with caution and restraint. Reverting a good-faith edit may send the message that "I think your edit was no better than vandalism and doesn't deserve even the courtesy of an explanatory edit summary." It is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor; do not abuse it. --Bloodofox 10/22/05


 * Note that I have not once used the "rollback" feature on this article. I manually restored the last good version.  "Rollback" edit summaries are automatically generated, marked as minor edits, and say something along the lines of "Reverted edits by [user] to last version by [user]".  You'll notice none of mine were marked as minor edits, and did not have that style of edit summary.  Furthermore, since I've shown evidence that the term "neofolk" was in use at least as far back as 2000, it seems odd that you now claim it was coined in a 2003 interview.  You also haven't presented evidence that the term "Neuer Deutscher Folk" is in common usage, given that it has fewer than 100 google hits, some of which are Wikipedia and its mirrors. --Delirium 05:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikiterrorism
While we understand that musical taxonomy is a tricky subject and that the history and origin of new styles of music is often complex and nuanced, what you are doing is clearly sabotage. Wikipedia is a wonderful example of democracy at its worst (and sadly, best). Please stop.

Thank you,

- The Management --ORG.618 05:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello
Delerium, there is no dispute that the term existed before 2003 as I myself was aware of neofolk much before the said interview. I have not heard the interview but someone may post it. The interview gives an idea to the origin of neofolk and it is the first time a major player in the scene uses the word "neofolk" officially and cements the term as an actual word to describe a scene/movement.

With love. - Fleischbox

Just my two cents...
As a Wikipedian with a strong interest in the neofolk movement for the last couple of years, who hasn't involved himself in the issues raised here yet, I guess it may be just time to add my two cents.

First of all, the term 'neuer deutscher Folk' appears rather questionable to me. I, too, have heard the term neofolk being applied to a movement of which DIJ, C93, and SI were part, when I first encountered the movement in 2001, two years before the alleged interview. On the other hand, I never heard the term 'neuer deutscher Folk' before, and the fact that Google has only 41 hits on this term seems to be a clear indicator that this is not an accepted term. Also note that neither 'Folk' nor 'folkish' are existing German words - on the other hand, 'Volk' (people), 'völkisch' (pertaining to the nation---a term which nowadays has strong associations with Nazi ideologies), and 'Volksmusik' (folk music) are. In my eyes, it therefore seems reasonable that the mentioning of the term 'neuer deutscher Folk' be removed from the article.

I have not heard the interview in question, but at least among people I have conversed with, the 'common' definition of neofolk seems to include Death In June, Sol Invictus, and Current 93: including those bands in the list therefore seems reasonable to me. In my experience, there is no clear-cut distinction between neofolk and apocyptic folk either: some bands (e.g. Forseti, Sonne Hagal) seem to be called neofolk exclusively, while for other bands (e.g. Sol Invictus, Current 93) both monikers seem to be in use. If, after looking into the matter further, it still appears to be the case that there are two irreconciliable points of view here, I'd personally say that it may just be fair to mention both sides in the article. The article as it stands currently, however, seems to have little merit, as it clearly appears to be the case that a large fraction of followers of the neofolk movement disagrees with a large part of its content.

Other things that, I believe, should at least be mentioned in the article in order for it to have any encyclopaedic value:

- Thematics of the neofolk movement. These include paganism, war-related topics (cf. Der Blutharsch), as well as a variety of esoteric topics (gnosticism, Thelema, and other branches of mysticism, also with artists often expressing interest in secret societies and the likes). Also it should, I believe, be mentioned, that traditionalist/anti-modernist views are fairly widespread in the movement.

- Associations that have been made between the neofolk movement and right wing politics. We should just not let this go unmentioned altogether, but instead try to present this controversial issue as objective as possible. Mention that a number of neofolk artists frequently touch upon WW2-themes, and use WW2/Nazi symbolism in their artwork, often with a clearly provocative intention. Mention that a number of neofolk artists is inspired by Julius Evola, a traditionalist writer who was connected to Mussolini at one point in is life, and who also has some general leanings towards fascist ideas. But also mention that pretty much none of the neofolk groups openly have a right-extremist agenda, and that the majority of the fans has no right-extremist ideas whatsoever. Mention that the neofolk movement is almost totally different from, let's say, the RAC and NSBM movements, and that it in no way can be considered to be a 'right-extremist' movement. Of course, this is a controversial issue, but at the very least this controverse should be reflected in the Wikipedia article.

- Connection to other musical movements. Quite a few neofolk artists also have occupied themselves with styles such as martial, dark ambient, noise, and other avant-garde styles of music. Often also neofolk is categorized as a subcategory within the goth scene, which is also the origin of a large fraction of the neofolk fanbase. Some neofolk groups (e.g. Of The Wand And The Moon, Weihan) have members that have been involved in the metal scene, and neofolk enjoys a small degree of popularity among some parts of the metal scene - particularly the black and doom metal movements.

The point of an encyclopaedia such as Wikipedia is to reflect reality; it is not to reflect how you believe reality should be. Let us try to achieve this with this article, providing not just a single, disputed, vision of what the neofolk movement is like, but rather a survey of the facts as well as the more controversial issues, including a representation of the various opinions.

Joost 18:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Modified
Modified Def.

Neofolk is a form of Folk music that blends acoustic guitars with varities of sounds such as pianos, strings and even post-industrial elements. Neofolk encompasses a wide assortment of themes ranging from heathenry and traditional music to romanticism and occultism. Neofolk musicians often have ties to Neoclassical, Post-Industrial, Martial Music, Apocalyptic folk and various other genres.

Culture The spirit of Neofolk contains parallels to the ideals of American and British folk movements of the 1960's. The basis of this music is built upon principles against commercialization and popular culture. However the themes of Neofolk and Folk music are drastically different. A majority of artists within the neofolk genre focus on archaic symbols of culture, myths and beliefs. Local traditions and indigenous beliefs tend to be portrayed heavily as well as esoteric and historical topics. Homages and tributes to controversial figures such as Friedrich Nietzsche, Julius Evola, and Leni Riefenstahl as well as the usage of war themes, imagery and runic writings by some musicians have drawn criticisms and links between neofolk and right wing establishments from various sources. These accusation are misguided, there is no link between neofolk and right wing politics.

History The term Neofolk originates from esoteric music circles who started using the term in the late 20th century to describe music influenced by musicians such as Douglas Pearce (Death In June), Tony Wakeford (Sol Invictus), and David Tibet (Current93). The roots of Neofolk can be traced back even further. In the1960's the cult band Changes founded by Robert N. Taylor and Nicholas Tesluk were making and performing Heathen Folk music. The term Neofolk was cemeted as an actual musical genre in 2003. During an interview on the Australian radio show "The Vanishing Point" Douglas Pearce used the term to describe a new wave of emerging Germanic and Scandinavian artists directly influenced by his music. Pearce described this music as "Neue Deutscher Folk" this phrase has become synonymous with "Neofolk", notwithstanding controversy.

Yes/No/Maybe ?

Going to post this if no one has anything to add/delete or major criticisms. But let us get this over with that pink gay pride banner on the def page is a bit out of place.

btw nice post jo.

- Fleisch


 * A big improvement, although I think there are still some inaccuracies. In particular, only one segment of neofolk is associated with "heathenry", although nearly all segments are associated with some form of what might be termed "occult".  Groups like Sol Invictus are usually considered neofolk by all but a few dogmatists, and they're pagan but not "heathen" (they associate themselves more with ancient Roman religion, as the name implies, than with Germanic religions).  Douglas Pearce himself is very ambiguous with his "religion", and does not self-identify as a "heathen", although he does use some aspects of Germanic religion in his music (such as runes), although again only sometimes, and in conjuction with an extensive personal mythology and symbolism, and Michael Cashmore pretty much never uses any Germanic-religion symbolism in his work (e.g. in Nature and Organisation, usually considered a neofolk group).  Not to mention the obvious Current 93's David Tibet, who started as a Crowleyite and is now a gnostic Christian. --Delirium 06:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The "occult" aspect is simply Thelema and/or Gnosticism. Wakeford has used extensive Germanic themes throughout his discography, until recently where he has used very little but Christian imagery in his lyrics, augmented with British localities and a small amount of some of his previous symbolism. Previously, during his more "neofolk" phase, he used themes such as ragnarok commonly throughout his discography. As for Douglas P, "heathen" would be a perfect term for the imagery that Douglas P has moved into using more and more since DI6 became his baby. The last album aside, which was obviously done to raise finances for his court case with WSD and to "exorcise" said feelings, constant references are made to Frey to Odin to all sorts of Heathen themes, from packaging to lyrics. As for Tibet, the man plays no instruments and really has little at all to do with this sort of music outside of a brief flirtation when Douglas P was involved with Current 93, did have a passing interest in his genetic ancestry, likely spurred by Douglas P's involvement with him at that time since he had not hinted at it prior. This can be seen through Tibet's "presentation" of spoken word by Edred Thorsson recorded. The Heathen aspects and, with some artists such as Ian Read, Asatru aspects of neofolk music are extremely obvious. --Bloodofox 11/04/05


 * Wakeford has certainly used Germanic themes, but they are hardly the main themes he uses; his band name, is after all, derived from the Roman cult of the same name. And it is not just his recent albums---1989's Lex Talionis involves themes such as ancient Roman ruins and the "unconquered sun".  As for your views of David Tibet, it's hardly worth discussing, since you clearly harbor an irrational hatred from the man that colors your ability to discuss his role intelligently.  Regardless of what you think of Tibet, he's had a huge impact, and it was hardly "brief"---he appears on every single Death in June album from 1984 through 1995, and his adoption of folkish elements greatly influenced DiJ to move away from their Joy Division sound towards a more folkish sound (albeit a different and non-apocalyptic one).  --Delirium 05:52, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Tibet?
Look, Bloodofox, it's obvious that you're a Douglas P. fanboy and seem to have some sort of irrational aversion towards David Tibet, but trying to marginalize Tibet's influence and involvement in the scene and reduce it to "a brief flirtation" limited to when he was working with Douglas is merely silly, stupid, and revisionist. I somehow doubt that you are extensively familiar with Current 93's discography. Neither is Douglas appearing on seminal and/or definitely folky releases such as Of Ruine or Some Blazing Starre, All the Pretty Little Horsies or Sleep Has His House, to name a few. Current 93 play a great many of their folkiest tunes live still, and the track that has been released as a preview of the coming album, Black Ships ate the Sky is definitely folk based, and as expected, there's no trace of Douglas P. on that album either. --a43 November 6 2005 -- 00:30 (CEST)


 * hi
 * I loathe Tibet (Michael?). But I will admit if you ask certain neofolk groups today who has inspired them to make this kind of music many of them will mention C93. If Tibet should be mentioned in the article it should be only a brief line about C93 nothing more. It does not matter how much you guys love Tibet he has no involvement in this scene today.


 * Like it or not the neofolk genre belongs to a select group of artists who share common ideals and recurring themes such as paganism (but not limited to). This is the stigma of neofolk and why we have a neofolk genre in general. Any wrong associations with the genre by including artists who have nothing to do with the scene renders the neofolk term counterproductive and then we may as well just refer to everything as plain old folk.


 * Let us just find some common ground and quit bickering. And whoever linked Apocolyptic Folk to Neofolk should think about fixing this blunder because the terms are NOT interchangeable. In my humble opinion there is nothing apocolyptic about Forseti :-)
 * - Fleisch


 * Like it or not the neofolk genre does not "belong" to anyone; it belongs to whoever is commonly agreed to be neofolk, whether a group of heathen-revivalists tries to coopt the word or not. It is clear that "apocalyptic folk" and "neofolk" is not synonymous; the latter derives from the former, and is a generalization.  This is clear when looking at the common origins of C93 and DiJ: The first folkish music from both bands appeared on the 1987 C93 album Swastikas for Noddy (to which Douglas P contributed "Hello Angel", his first folk track).  Essentially the idea of using folk music in post-industrial music originated there; before that album, DiJ was basically a Joy Division sound-alke. --Delirium 06:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a difference in between being not (personally) "involved" in a scene and to have no "influence" on a scene. It seems questionable to me whether all of today's neofolk fans and artists claim Tibet not to "share common ideals" with them or to be obsolete. Search the net for a c93 tribute record called "the bells shall sound forever" (2003) including cover versions by bands as Novy Svet and Sonne Hagal. 172.178.223.240zarathus

Douglas P On Neofolk & Heathenism Again
These quotes are both from an April 11, 2005 interview with Douglas P conducted by Erin Powell for the Heathen Harvest zine, which is a Heathen-influenced Radical Faeries website dealing with neofolk and martial music-related topics, as well as aspects of paganism.

"HH: What are your thoughts on what has come to be known as the Neofolk scene and it's progression since your participation in it's inception?

DP: I'm very pleased to say that a lot of the groups I like a lot. The finger's been pointed at me as being the godfather of the movement. I wasn't aware of starting it. It just happened to be what I was doing. I'm very pleased with a lot of these groups now, and even before this was recognized as a scene, some of the earlier groups like In My Rosary in Germany and Anabelle's Garden, which I don't think exist anymore (In My Rosary do, I believe) are really quite good. I've really gotten my share of enjoyment from them. As Kim Larsen from Of The Wand And The Moon knows when he put out that 10" (I can't remember the name right now) it became my favorite music for barbecues in Australia. *laughter* I wrote him and told him I really like your record, we really get off on it. It ended up that we collaborated together. I got him as a support act in Denmark when we played there just over a year ago. I like these groups. I like Forseti. When by chance they supported us in Germany they were a very young group. I didn't know what they were like and I said, "If you're O.K. during the sound check, you're on.", because they just happened to be at the venue where we were, and they were great during the sound-check and so I said, "Yeah, no problem. This is going to be a real pleasurable evening." And of course Andreas Ritter and myself have gone on to work together in separate roles, both for Death In June and for Forseti. So there were those nice instances and if people say that I thought of that genre, I don't mind at all because a lot of it is really good. If it had been terrible and I had hated every group then...But I can definitely live with it and I can go to bed and sleep easy.

HH: How do you feel about having inspired other musicians and artists to utilize runes and other Eurocentric symbols in their works?

DP: I'm very happy about that because I see Death In June as part of a European cultural revival. I'm pleased that the Old Gods are being resurrected, for want of a better word. Old symbols. I feel very pleased that I am a part of that process and that I have had influence. At this stage in the game, so to speak, it's not false modesty to say that I am content with my influence. It's not beating my own drum, it's fact. If nothing ever were to happen after this point, then nothing could take away from that myth, that legend. The effect of Death In June as a rock being thrown into a pool sending ripples on their course. It's too late, it is a part of history." -- bloodofox November 7, 2005


 * Nobody is denying that this is a view on neofolk. However, Douglas P has one particular set of views, and controversial ones at that, stemming from his falling-out with other members of the neofolk scene in the mid-90s.  Even he, however, does not anywhere here claim "neofolk is, and only is, this group if musicians"---he simply is pointing out a group of musicians he likes.  He does not even use the term "New German Folk" at all.  Of course, the other side is not much better---England's Hidden Reverse, written more from the C93/Coil camp (with some mention of Sol Invictus and friends), completely omits mention of Douglas P, which is no better.  But neither is correct.  Clearly you are trying to push a particular POV, which is counter-historical and does not belong in this article.  Essentially, by your definition, "revival of heathen values" is synonymous with neofolk, which you may wish to be the case, but is not true. --Delirium 05:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a view of neofolk from a man who has been actively involved with and a strong influence in the genre since inception. Tibet has not. Most absurdly, you've mentioned Coil here, which really has no relevance at all to this article or subject. This article is an attempt to define a specific movement of artists and the genre origins thereof. It doesn't deviate from Douglas P's view, as he does not define neofolk as a genre in this interview I've posted. However, he does mention the "Neu Deutscher Folk" tag in the interview I do mention in the article, which has been sadly removed from The Vanishing Point website and I'll post it here when I do find it again. Regarding Heathenry, it's very clear that "European values," Heathenry and/or sometimes Asatru are dominant themes in neofolk music. From European literature, to European culture, to European paganism, you could easily define 90% of the artists involved in this genre as "Heathen." A small list of these artists would include: Death In June, Of The Wand And The Moon, Sol Invictus, Sonne Hagal, Orplid, Forseti, Harvest Rain, Sturmpercht, Weihan, Neun Welten, etc. etc. As for American (which I am) folk music having an influence with neofolk music? Small at best. It's very clear this is a "New European" movement in many aspects, particularly cultural. -- bloodofox November 18, 2005


 * Yes, nobody is denying Douglas P has been actively involved in neofolk, but it is also clear that he has had falling-outs with many other people in the scene that cause his reliability when giving historical accounts to be questionable. I mention Coil only in reference to the book I described, not as a neofolk band (the book England's Hidden Reverse includes Coil, in addition to Sol Invictus and Current 93, since the bands were all friends and frequently collaborated---John Balance appears on many DiJ albums, for example).  This article surely is an "attempt to define" something, which has no place on Wikipedia---see No original research.  What it ought to be is an attempt to neutrally document.  As for American folk music, it's clear if you go listen to Rose Clouds of Holocaust or But, What Ends When the Symbols Shatter? that Douglas P's key innovation in this area was blending elements from 1960s American acoustic-guitar folk with traditional European folk music (traditional European folk does not have singer/songwriter style acoustic-guitar folk music of this sort).  As for most of the other artists you've mentioned, nobody considers "Sonne Hagal" or "Sturmpercht" definitive of neofolk; they're a bunch of johnny-come-latelies that nobody listens to.  Of the Wand & the Moon is more notable, but they're basically a DiJ clone.  I suggest you read a book or two on the subject. --Delirium 20:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * During the fallout Douglas P had with World Serpent, many artists left with him. In fact, most of these artists that left went on to be today's major names in neofolk and martial music. This also showed another level of the 'unity' and line of influence found in neofolk music. John Balance didn't appear on "many" Death In June albums, he only appeared on a couple, with limited, small contributions. We're trying to make a neutral, clear and concise article here that people can refer back to. I am not trying to push an agenda, just state the obvious. As for Death In June's folk contributions, you are plainly wrong. Death In June's folk sound appeared as early as "Nada!" (1985) which is obviously before Douglas P's folk influence on Current 93 (Swastikas - 1988).. What BOOKS are you referring to, exactly? We've already covered the ones you've mentioned. You recommend "Looking For Europe" to me before it was released, which is in German, and clearly backs the article we've put together here in terms of reference. I should also remind that Sonne Hagal, Forseti and OFTWATM all appeared around the same time and regularly play together, as well as appear on each others albums. Larsen of OTWATM has done a DIJ cover and has had a considerably amount of influence from DIJ but, particularly the newest album, is definitely uniquely OTWATM. All of whom fit this definition perfectly as well and have a considerably fanbase as perhaps the largest names in neofolk. Sturmpercht is a newer name but really shows what neofolk music is becoming, which is more cultural and less 'contemporary,' relying on more folk basis brought into the new world, an obvious revival. --bloodofox November 18, 2005


 * Also, since you're so keen on reverting mentions of Heathenry out of this article, I suggest you refer to one of your own references, "Looking For Europe" - Page 9 reads: ""Rüstzeug zur Umsetzung ihrer spirituellen Gefühle und aus der (europäischen) Geschichte" In other words, this music is often used as an outlet for the articulation of spritual feelings and out of the interests of European stories. Clearly, new acts such as Sagentoeter continue to make this pretty obvious. It is not in the best interest to keep reverting mentions of Heathenry and folk tradition out of this article. --bloodofox November 18, 2005


 * Nobody is claiming that Heathenry is irrelevant, only that it is not definitional. I agree that many neofolk bands consider this a major influence, but this is only one branch of neofolk, not the only one.  In particular, many neofolk bands hearken back more to ancient Rome than to ancient Germanic religion&mdash;still "old Europe", but in a different guise.  Sol Invictus is particular has a strong mix of influences.  In addition, you seem to have some sort of crusade against Tibet---if you look at Death in June linear notes, David Tibet is credited in one guise or another (sometimes as "Tibet 93" or "Christ 93") on every single Death in June release from 1984 through 1995.  There is no DiJ folk music that predates their collaboration.  It is, of course, subject to dispute who came up with the folk elements (Douglas P or David Tibet), but it is a simple fact that all of the music of both bands before their collaboration was non-folk (Death in June's was post-punk/post-industrial sounding very much like Joy Division, while Current 93's was industrial/noise).  As for "Nada!", check the liner notes&mdash;the line-up credited is "Douglas P., Patrick Leagas, Richard Butler, and Christ 93". --Delirium 23:33, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Most of the neofolk music today is not a result of influence originating from heathen ideals but the outlet of. Do not confuse these two viewpoints. Coil does not belong on the neofolk page whatsoever. Like I said I have no problem with C93 being listed as one of the influences for many of the artists in the scene today, however this page should definitely not be dedicated to Tibet. And there is no need to dig up links where the term neofolk was first used. According to the book which you recommended reading the first official publication that used the term was by the German magazine "Zillo" in the 90's. I'm surprised you have not mentioned this yet. -- Fleischbox


 * I agree this should not be "dedicated to Tibet", but the history section should mention that in the mid-80s he was one of the members that spawned the scene, and its members now have different recollections of what happened. Basically, from the mid-80s through the mid-90s, Douglas P and David Tibet frequently collaborated&mdash;each appeared on nearly all of the other's releases, often contributing both songwriting and vocals.  It is hard to untangle who originated what, but it would be dishonest to write one of them out of the picture entirely (Tibet's fans are trying to write Pearce out of it, and Pearce's fans are trying to write Tibet out of it).  I will agree that the very strongly Heathen-focused neofolk scene is the primary neofolk scene today, but it is a more recent outgrowth, and didn't originate out of nothingness.  There are also related scenes that originated from the same mix that should be mentioned&mdash;it would be dishonest to have a history of neofolk without ever mentioning Tony Wakeford, for example, nor without mentioning the close association between neofolk and martial industrial (especially the relationship between Douglas P and Albin Julius). In addition, many of these other groups are called "neofolk" by at least some publications (for example, Ordo Rosarius Equilibrio is called "neofolk" by some, as I've pointed out elsewhere on this page). --Delirium 00:37, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Now that we have clashed why do you guys not work together to come up with a defenition and / or a correct history of the Neofolk sound. I think this would prove to be more eventful than going around and posting what everyone thinks the def should be. Here is a slightly modified history of my previous example to get ya'll jump started.

History The term Neofolk originates from esoteric music circles who started using the term in the late 20th century to describe music influenced by musicians such as Douglas Pearce (Death In June), Tony Wakeford (Sol Invictus), and David Tibet (Current93). These musicians were part of a Post-Industrial music circle who later on incorporated folk music based upon traditional and european elements into their sound. Sounds of Neofolk can be traced back even further. Musicians were creating and performing music similar to the neofolk sound and themes much earlier such as the 1960's cult band Changes founded by Robert N. Taylor and Nicholas Tesluk. However it was the aforementioned artists who were involved in the black-scene throughout the 1980's and 1990's that contributed specifically to the emergence of Neofolk which is seen by many as an extension of Post-Industrial music into the folk music genre.

-- Fleisch


 * That seems substantially correct to me. --Delirium 02:59, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am fine with that, although it should really be noted that Wakeford and (mainly) Pearce went on to help foster and form the waves of neofolk artists that were influenced by them, whereas Tibet went on to do something completely different on a musical and ideological level. Also, the thing is that Tibet doesn't play the guitar, so it should be obvious that the folk influence would come from someoen who would be able to play the stuff, right? Plus, I don't know if Changes is really that instrumental as some would say. Nico really had a lot to do with the initial influences on Pearce and so did Scott Walker. I think What Moynihan claims with Changes is really more of an after though t than anything else, since Taylor was definitely not into what he is now back then.. I would also recommend replacing "black-scene" with maybe "dark music" scene as the literal translation from German sounds a little bit, er, misleading to English ears. :] --bloodofox November 19, 2005

The bit about changes can be removed as I am not a total changes fanboy (well OK I am...). But that line must remain in a modified or some other form for the following reasons. Music similar to Neofolk both in sound and themes have long existed and we must establish the fact that we are aware of this. For example I was speaking to someone recently who believes neofolk's roots started with musicians such as Vulcan's Hammer, The Sallyangie and Gallery. I am not very familiar with these bands but this person is probably not wrong. I can mention half a dozen other artists whom I believe had the neofolk sound and/or themes back then.

There will always be people who will ask why are "so and so.." not considered neofolk and claim "this band is the real band responsible for the rise of neofolk". The distinction must be made between some of these bands that existed in the 60's and the emergence of neofolk in the 80's-90's. I have included the band changes just as an example of the sound that existed back then. If you wish to modify that line we could do something such as: "..can be traced back even further. Musicians were creating and performing music similar to the neofolk sound as far back as the 60's. However it was..".

As far as Nico and Scott Walker it would probably piss me off just as much having their names on the neofolk board as Tibet does to you. The bit about Tibet not playing the guitar is just nitpicking and seems like an insult on his musical abilities and is not relevant to this article at all. What are you going to do next, tell me that one of my favorite musicians (Ian Read) does not play any instruments at all? I would die! :-P -- Fleischbox

Perhaps I have not worded the sentence correctly and we can change "Sounds of Neofolk can be traced back even further. " to something like "inspiration for neofolk", "foundations for the emergence of.." or "precursors to the neofolk sound". -- Fleisch

Delirium's irregularity.
Delirium writes:

"Death in June's albums were being intermittently described as "neofolk" in the late 1980s,"

"That's simply incorrect. The term neofolk has been in regular use since the 1980s, and I have myself been purchasing CDs described as "neofolk" since many years before the Vanishing point interview to which you refer."

"and in any case "neofolk" long predates it; Death in June's albums were being intermittently described as "neofolk" in the late 1980s, and consistently by 1992 "

"I've been listening to neofolk for at least 10 years now, and we called it neofolk back then."

Anyone else see the lack of contiunuity here? 10 years ago = 1995, not the 1980s. The oldest reference to the term neofolk he can come up with is from 2000. Still off by 20 years!

I suggest more roughage.

-- Frater_Tot:


 * Well, here's a review from 1998 that uses the term "neo-folk" as if it were clearly already well-established. I will try to dig up some more references, but it requires digging up some hard-to-find books and catalogs, since there's little stuff still on the web that dates to earlier than that (and obviously there was no WWW in the 1980s). --Delirium 21:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Why wouldn't you quote printed sources? "As if it were well established" is mere conjecture. Especially with genres, such terms are used to create hype.


 * -- Frater_Tot:


 * Regardless, it shows that the term was used in the 1990s, contrary to your claims. I will try to dig up some earlier sources as well; it looks like the new German book that has just come out on the history of neofolk will be a good reference. --Delirium 21:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The only claim I made was that Neofolk as a term did not exist in the 1980s. I made no mention of the 1990s, except when quoting you.


 * -- Frater_Tot:

There is no need for personal/character attacks. Let's keep this page a discussion about Neofolk. -- Fleischbox

The Definitive Neofolk description
Alright boys and girls. Use this as a base and modify what you want or say what you like or do not like about this article that we could perhaps include/exclude in any future definitions. If no comments are made I will assume that this is the greatest def EVER and post it. So make sure you comment if you have something to say :-)

--- Neofolk is a form of Folk music that emerged from European ideals and Post-Industrial music circles. Neofolk often blends acoustic guitars with varities of sounds such as pianos, strings and even industrial elements. Neofolk encompasses a wide assortment of themes ranging from heathenry and traditional music to romanticism and occultism. Neofolk musicians often have ties to Neoclassical music, Martial Music, Post-Industrial music, Heathen circles and various other genres and societies.

History The term Neofolk originates from esoteric music circles who started using the term in the late 20th Century to describe music influenced by musicians such as Douglas Pearce (Death In June), Tony Wakeford (Sol Invictus), and David Tibet (Current93). These musicians were part of a Post-Industrial music circle who later on incorporated folk music based upon traditional and european elements into their sound. Folk musicians as far back as the 1960's were creating music similar to neofolk in terms of sounds and themes. These musicians could be considered harbingers of the sound that later influenced the neofolk artists. However, the distinction must be made that it was the aforementioned artists who were involved in the dark music scene throughout the 1980's and 1990's that contributed specifically to the emergence of neofolk. Neofolk is seen by many as an extension of Post-Industrial music into the folk music genre which did not occur until the late 20th Century.

Culture The spirit of Neofolk contains parallels to the ideals of American and British folk movements of the 1960's. The basis of this music is built upon principles against commercialization and popular culture. However the themes of Neofolk and Folk music are drastically different. A majority of artists within the neofolk genre focus on archaic symbols of culture, myths and beliefs. Local traditions and indigenous beliefs tend to be portrayed heavily as well as esoteric and historical topics. Homages and tributes to controversial figures such as Friedrich Nietzsche, Julius Evola, and Leni Riefenstahl as well as the usage of war themes, imagery and runic writings by some musicians have drawn misguided  criticisms and links between neofolk and right wing establishments from various sources.


 * Well, I think the problem with this is that it still focuses too much on what should be the definition for "apocalyptic folk" and not what "neofolk" should be. Neofolk music is music that was directly influenced by this circle, particularly Death In June, since Pearce has been at it and largely responsible for this folk influence. It was either Wakeford or Pearce that brought it aboard and Pearce seems most obvious to have done so, since Wakeford played bass and Douglas was lead guitarist. He used the name's clout a lot to also release material by these artists that would fit the genre name early on, as well as playing with on stage and on record with multiple artists that later became flagship names of the genre. Tibet's contribution to this genre has really been very little and it's questionable as to how responsible for the folk element, which is really what we're focusing on here, he was responsible for also. Now? He has absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever. And he really hasn't in a decade. Why do you think the guy refused to showcase any of his "apocalyptic folk" material on that neofolk compilation? I like the guy about as I much do Wakeford but I can understand that Wakeford has had a much larger influence in this genre than Tibet and Wakeford really hasn't done much of anything in the past few years either. Some of the early Sol Invictus albums really are huge influences on later neofolk material, only 2nd to Death In June and rivaling it sometimes. The biggest difference is simply how active and hands-on Pearce has been in helping it grow.


 * What should also really be noted here, in my opinion, is that perhaps the psych folk influence was heavy early on, but it had a large pagan element to it that was strongly European, which it would later explore more and more until the psych folk influence was almost totally erased in favor of more traditional and native music forms by these European artists. Basically, what I'm saying here, is that the psych folk themes lead to the later pagan themes, which really caused the genre to explode. The reason for this is obvious, people are interested in their roots and quite a lot of people want to further them, since they're naturally a part of them. What we're seeing now is more and more of a revival of tradition and native elements in place of things relating to pop culture.


 * You're definitely right about the DIY ethic this music has. It's really struggled to get by under HUGE pressure (depended on almost entirely P2P and worth of mouth) this is probably also notable. It's incredibly out of fashion in every single way in today's society but it continues to flourish from the grass roots, with regular festivals and all-indie labels. The reason? The subject matter and the sheer passion that a lot of musicians put forth into this music, not to mention the pooled resources, die hard fans and comradery a lot of artists in this genre show.


 * --Bloodofox

I would definitely exclude Bloodofox of this discussion. His views on the origins of Neofolk are totally subjective. Nobody I know involved in this kind of music would deny c93 and sol invictus' equal contribution to the origins of this music scene, when everything was still based at WORLD SERPENT. Maybe DI6 have always been the most popular band, maybe younger neofolk bands are more attracted to Pearce's approach to the original idea (and - maybe - to Pearce's more obvious flirtations with right-wing symbolism and ideologies), but let's not mess up categories here. There has never been a definition of apocalyptic folk as opposed to Neofolk as stated by Bloodofox. Tibet continued to use folk sound after Pearce's involvement in C93 ended (Of Ruins... has been stated before in this discussion). Sol Invictus still use acoustic guitars and a "folkish" sound on every new record. Delirium has already stated all of this, and I do strongly agree with his opinions. It's rubbish to make the term neofolk dependent on any "who's playing what instrument" - discussion. The band's leader (in these cases, where every project is based upon a single person) is responsible for the sound and the genre that finally appears on his records. He is collecting the musicians and influencing the direction the music should sound like even if he's not playing anything. The common use of musical terms such as neofolk refer to the people generally associated with these projects. "Swastikas for Noddy" has been received as one of the records that defined the "neofolk" style (even by Pearce himself) and has always been associated with Tibet. Additionally, Di6 had stopped doing traditional neofolk by the late 90's (Take care and control, Operation Hummingbird), although they returned to the classic style on some tracks of "All Pigs must die". Describing the use of acoustic guitars as the core element of bands associated with the neofolk genre is misleading. You CAN state Tibet's influence on today's scene is not as important as Pearce's and - if you think so - that he sucks anyway. You CAN state Sol Invictus records tend to be musically more repetitive than Di6's. But these are personal views and observations which have no use when you are trying to write a wikipedia article about the empiric history of the term and the musical genre. What annoys me most about people as Bloodofox is that they just continue to proudly repeat opinions which are based on wrong facts and subjective preferences even if they are clearly refuted. By the way, the new article seems to be appropriate.

172.178.223.240 15:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)zarathus


 * Agreed. Remember Wikipedia is descriptive, not proscriptive. This is absolutely not the place to try and define your concept of pure heathen neo-folk or express your own personal musical preferences. This article should record how the term is used, and what it's origins are. Few people would draw any real distinction between apocalyptic folk, neo-folk and dark-folk, they're all terms invented by fans and critics for goodness sakes. Current 93 and Sol Invictus are almost always described as neo-folk for at least some of their period of playing, and neo-folk is often used to describe everything from Backworld to Viking. This reminds me all too much of some of the insane, or rather inane, niggling around black metal, though at least there is more consensus there. The term 'neo-folk' exists only in the sense that it is used, and is not centred around any particular ideology or band. By all means make mention of the New German Folk movement and whatnot, but please don't make that the entirety of the definition. --KharBevNor 18:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll work at being more neutral here. I do quite like a lot of the Sol Invictus discography, especially the early and mid period stuff. I also like some of the apocalyptic folk era Current 93 stuff. However, I think what I've said before here regarding early DI6 and the "folk sound" first appearing in those works that would later inspire a genre should really be taken a closer look at, as well as how the psych folk influence has changed to become a more traditional folk influence over time and how a soup of esoteric beliefs would later become a genre almost entirely dominated by something that could be described as a New German Folk (or whatever native folk traditions the artist might have) movement. The more I read into this, the more I really feel as though Pearce is what brought that initial amount of folk influence into this sort of music combined with post-industrial themes. It's there in the discographies. I don't think it's showing preference to note the way the sound worked into the WSD camp and how it evolved into 'an apocalyptic folk sound and where it went into from there. Although the terms are interchangeable at times, they aren't as they used to be. When a band prefers the term folk noir now, they're obviously referring to a line Wakefordian influence, as he's chosen to label his music under that banner. Terms like neofolk and apocalyptic folk are more interchangeable, though a band using the term apocalyptic folk is probably going to be citing a more Thunder Perfect Mind-era line of influence. I think it's really in the interest of the article to take a look at how the old WSD period proceeded. This article doesn't have to be a gray soup when there's very specific information out there and extremely clear lines of influence. --Bloodofox 22:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It would not be in our best interests to exclude anyone from this discussion, especially someone who obviously has a deep and passionate interest about neofolk. It would be favorable to resolve all differences of opinions now or else we will face the same situation again in the future. With the above definition I purposely left some parts vague to let the reader draw their own interpretations. For example I said "neofolk is music INSPIRED by the music of..". I know there are many neofolk groups today who will cite Wakeford or Tibet as one of their inspirations. It does not mean those individuals make neofolk music or are involved in this scene in any way since this is a debate that will never be resolved. To exclude these two names just does more harm than good. We do not need to give them more credit or take anything away. This is simple and I think it works. If not rewrite the paragraphs that do not insult Tibet or stroke Dougie's ego. --Fleisch


 * I think what's happening is an all to typical problem with Wikipedia and musical genres. Bands important to the genre and bands influential to the genre get their mention, then some people feel bands that were influenced by the genre or are related to the genre should also be mentioned when really, they have no place being mentioned in a definition of neofolk. So they complain about the definition being too narrow when really all the definition is doing is defining neofolk and not every popular band relating to neofolk. Stick to neofolk people please! Sanctum 00:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the main problem in this case is more the opposite---Bloodofox has a particular ideology to push, that involves being stridely pro-Heathen and anti-David-Tibet, and is trying to create a non-factual article that reflects his idiosyncratic view of what neofolk ought to be. --Delirium 01:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we've evolved this article into a working description that is not only extremely accurate and unbiased, in my opinion, but has been reviewed (and edited) by numerous people involved with the genre itself and a multitude of fans. It's not my fault that Tibet had a passing involvement in what would influence neofolk music. It's also hardly due to my simple influence that neofolk music is overwhelmingly focused on European cultural themes, especially Heathenry of various forms. For reference, see almost any of the bands linked here, many of which now have their own stubs or articles. These people are the neofolk movement and the evidence for such a claim is easily accessible to you. I'm not going to remove the tag but I won't revert it if someone else does. You seem to be the only one here with an argument at this point about the state of the article - And, after all this time, I'm not even sure what it is. bloodofox: 03:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC


 * I probably have more of a passing interest in the neofolk scene, but I think I agree with Delirium to an extant. It's pretty odd to have an article about neofolk without mention of Tibet's influence, and it seems that the ideology of the scene has only recently become a main staple of what mainly defines the genre. A brief look through of the talk pages indicates that Delirium isn't the only one with these differing points of view. The article could use more citation in general, but why not give some sort of acknowledgement to the debate in these talk pages? Wikipedia points out that, even if there is a minority opinion on a subject, as long as that opinion is not original content, isn't an insignificant minority view, and has substantial backing, it should be included within the article in some way []. --Adrift* 04:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's important to check the dates in this conversation. We had some NPOV issues but I had thought we had resolved them.. When I first worked on this article, I had first started using Wikipedia and, as a result, a lot of my opinions were coming through. A few other people got involved and we made some comprimises. During the period in which Tibet was directly involved, the term "neofolk" did not exist. Only later, with a new "circle" of artists (Sonne Hagal, :OTWATM:, Orplid, Forseti) did "neofolk" really become definitive and did the term even come into widespread use, since this camp in particular was so active, regularly collaborated together and continuing to do so up until present. Tibet's work during the "apocalyptic folk" period of Current 93 is hardly anymore relevant than Tony Wakeford's as Sol Invictus during the time and Pearce's as Death In June and what folk music that was produced by Tibet and collaborators is more appropriately called "Apocalyptic Folk" - Which we even have a section here explaining. The reason I wouldn't call Tibet's work "neofolk" is that he's had next to nothing to do with this sort of music outside of that influence since then, he hasn't been involved at all - In fact, he's even directly shunned any involvement. If we don't make it clear enough the difference in these terms, we could elaborate and I don't want to give the impression that I'm not open to changing the article but I don't see the point in downplaying blatant hallmarks of the music. bloodofox: 14:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem seems to be that you have an idiosyncratic definition of "neofolk". As it's used by most people, "neofolk" is a general/blanket term for a whole range of "new folk" movements.  Among those are the heathen-oriented Germanic ones, but also other sub-genres like apocalyptic folk and folk noir, and even American groups like Backworld, all of which are clearly neofolk.  See any of Tesco's promotional material for this usage, for example; even bands like Ordo Rosarius Equilibrio are frequently described as "neofolk".  It does not seem to be a linguistic fact that "neofolk" as a descriptor means specifically Germanic new folk, but instead encompasses a wide range of sub-genres.  FWIW, the German article is better than the English one in this respect (and lists C93 in the list of neofolk groups). --Delirium 03:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * How would you like to change the article? Should we emphasize "neofolk" coming out of the "apocalyptic folk" genre more? Should we note a shift in themes? Most of the "apocalyptic folk" bands are almost totally inactive with the collapse of World Serpent Distribution, which may explain the general shift in themes too since most of the German bands were on different labels and they had a different set of themes altogether. The German article is less specific, whereas this one is alot more specific, to me. It seems to me that Backworld comes from the "apocalyptic folk" line of influence in both themes and sound. I'd even say Ordo Rosarius Equilibrio (and some of the tracks as Ordo Equilibrio also) is neofolk, albeit I'd use the term "martial" to describe them altogether and, of course, particularly for Archon Satani and earlier stuff by Ordo Equilibrio (and some by ORE) "dark ambient" would be an appropriate descriptor to me. The German article states that "apocalyptic folk" is a subgenre of "neofolk" and focuses almost exclusively on the genre.. However, "apocalyptic folk" clearly existed before neofolk music did. So, technically, it would be the other way around, wouldn't it? bloodofox: 09:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Mass Edit
I have updated the definition. I have also cleaned up some of the related terms such as Apoc Folk which looked a bit messy with 6 seperate paragraphs and lots of extra info that really was not relevant to the term. I have removed the Wandervogel movement from the "See Also" section which someone can add again if they feel like it.

I have removed the "Well known" Neofolk artist section because I believe it will just cause more disputes in the future as to who and who is not well known. I suggest we put artists that are only neofolk or artists related to neofolk in the artists section instead.

I have also changed the format of External Links by borrowing the style of the German Neofolk definition. I'm sure they won't mind :-P

It looks like they are having problems agreeing on a definition as well, but their problems seem to be mainly political. Fleischbox 16:12, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Changes
Could someone who knows more than I do (read: anything) about the band Changes go and edit their article? I get the impression that they're sort of important, and at any rate there's definitely more to say about them than that pathetic little stub that's there. Thanks for any help you can give! Cantara 06:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Read some information about the band and you do it? That is what wiki is for. And changes was not known by many until the 90's when Moynihan got them some exposure. Yes they were making music in the late 60's but no one knew of them until the 90's after the emergence of neofolk. Thus they were never considered major players in this scene. Fleischbox
 * Alright, alright. I assumed that they were well-known, since when I saw them perform it seemed like everyone was familiar with them except me. Obviously if I do read anything about them I'll add it, but I was operating on the assumption that there were people out there who were knowledgable already. Cantara 21:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't let Fleisch discourage you. He's just a grumpy displaced kraut! I created a little Robert N. Taylor stub per your suggestion and will get around to updating the Changes page here in time. bloodofox: 06:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've since updated the stub into a more informative article, although it could still use some more work. bloodofox: 14:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Citing sources and External links
can someone who has either; or possibly check out WP:CITE and add some references to the article? it would do a lot to to increasing its credability. also, with External links and WP:NOT in mind, are all the bands and zines in the external links section notable enough to be mentioned? seems like it could do with a bit of a prune to me --MilkMiruku 18:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Diesel, Andreas und Dr. Gerten, Dieter: Looking for Europe - Neofolk und Hintergründe., Zeltingen-Rachtig 2005, ISBN 3936878-02-1
 * Speit, Andreas u.a. (Hrsg.): Ästhetische Mobilmachung: Rechtsextreme Tendenzen in der Dark Wave- und Neofolkszene., Münster 2002, ISBN 3897718049


 * It's probably worth noting that this article was around before Looking For Europe was published and was, at that time, very similar to its present form despite the book release. However, I've read very negative things about Ästhetische Mobilmachung and I can personally tell you that any contribution I've made to this article most certainly was not derived from it. bloodofox: 22:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * fair enough then. can you think of any book that could have info we could reference on the article? --MilkMiruku 23:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't, unfortunately. It would be nice to have some solid references for this article but it would be difficult to attribute links to anything else but zines, many of which no longer exist. I suppose we could use more interview quotes as well for reference. bloodofox: 15:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Political controversies concerning Neofolk are very intense in Germany. "Ästhetische Mobilmachung" (pub.2002) is an extreme-left-wing-orientated book which tries to link the genre and it's protagonists to Neofascism by citing real or alleged connections to the Right and Far Right. It is fair to say that this is obviously (to anyone familiar with the genre) a very onesided, polemical, "accusing" book. Though most of the facts are sound, they are being presented in a distorting and questionable manner. Contradicting facts are being left out. "Looking For Europe", which appeared three years later (2005), also a german publication, is a well-researched "history" of the genre written by two "insiders" from a liberal/ neutral point of view. I would personally recommend it, and hope there will be an English translation soon.--Maya23 11:20, 2 January 2007 (CET)

Band lists
It's not encyclopedic to create a list of links to band websites and festivals for a genre's External Links section. If they are notable, they should be linked to within Wikipedia. A lot of these linsk should be removed, and if no one has any major objection, I wil do it shortly. WesleyDodds 05:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Feel free. I'll go through what you've changed and we'll go from there. bloodofox: 09:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed most of them. Band and label links on a genre page constitute promotion (they should appear on the pages of the bands and labels themselves) and foreign-language links have no place on the English Wiki.  I left the English fanzines and one of the festivals because they might be informative (haven't checked them out yet), but the External Links should be exclusively about information regarding the specific topic of the article.  Something like an online article about the genre would be a good example of an acceptable link.  WesleyDodds 04:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Von Thronstahl
Certain (usually anonymous users) keep adding him to the artist links, and others usually Bloodofox delete him (which i have no problem with, i'm just noting). What's going on with this exactly? I've heard him on a few neofolk based online radio stations and know that it's not unusual to see him connected to the scene via popular neofolk based websites like Fluxeuropa, but i'm personally not super familiar with his music myself so I can't make a judgement call. I'm wondering if this semi-edit war doesn't go back to the question "what makes up neofolk". Can the term Neofolk be a catch all for styles like martial and neo-classical or is it strictly now, only, connected to bands (or rather, as the case may be, specific albums) that are closely folk instrumental? Just curious.--Adrift* 04:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The user (it appears to be a single person) who keeps adding Von Thronstahl to the list never gives a reason as to why it should be there. Von Thronstahl is definitely martial music and even rock music but very questionably neofolk, I'd say. There's a few tracks that approach synthetic folk instrumentation but, really, it belongs here less than Der Blutharsch does - Their obvious initial inspiration. The very term "neofolk" implies folk instrumentation. There's the association of other genres, which we mention here, but the term is most often used to describe folk music of this vein. Being pretty familiar with their body of work and even having heavily contributed to the little Von Thronstahl Wikipedia article, I'd personally say that Von Thronstahl have more "rock" songs than anything approaching this sort of music. bloodofox: 07:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Some of the earliest material (pre-Imperium Internum EP's and such, though Imperium Internum is partly neofolk as well) by Von Thronstahl was undoubtely neofolk, but, you are right, their later material is almost without exceptions martial music or military pop. 80.216.158.20 22:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

"Folk music-inspired" and "Typical instruments: Folk instruments"?
What is that? Isn't it just in the last few years there has been some notable references to traditional folk music? Weren't earlier neo-folk rather inspired by folk rock and post-punk, and rather used acoustic guitars and samplers as main instruments than traditional folk instruments? 80.216.158.20 22:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Origins
Does anyone agree with my opinion that post-punk or punk should be added as genre origins? Most early neofolk bands (except Changes) had roots in punk or post-punk bands, and I'd say the pre-1990 neofolk and post-punk/goth shares a lot of similiarities.


 * Yeah, that seems reasonable. Death in June, for example, basically was a post-punk band until the mid-80s, and retained post-punk elements until at least the late 80s. --Delirium 05:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Markus Wolff
Wolff, the man behind Waldteufel, wrote an essay about neofolk music and related genres in 2001 for Esoterra Magazine entitled Ancestral Voices: Heathen Music in Germany: It's full of well researched information and is a treasure trove of sources regarding the genre's association with Germanic neopaganism. Since we're lacking sources and we really need them, this should help out. bloodofox: 17:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Misguided Critics?
i'm not going to change the article right now, but... well, using julius evola and similar racist figures as inspirational source does, imho, count as flirting with fascism. critics who note that don't seem "misguided" to me. opinions other then "you're a fucking leftist"? please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.124.179.55 (talk) 12:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've removed the text because it refers to some specific compilations mainly surrounding the VAWS camp and is hardly representative of the genre itself. I am not sure why you were expecting such a harsh response. bloodofox: 16:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There should probably be something (neutral and referenced) about it at some point though, because it's been a big controversy at times, especially in the German-language press. Death in June in particular is almost constantly battling legal problems, e.g. concert cancellations in both Switzerland and the U.S., and the indexing of "Rose Clouds of Holocaust". I seem to recall Strength Through Joy having some problems also. --Delirium 16:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There's actually only a handful of artists in the genre who have encountered any sort of problems and those are Death In June, Blood Axis and, in the past, Sol Invictus. I think I've recorded most of the issues that have occurred with Death In June on the DIJ Wikipedia article, so there we can mine any sources we may need. I don't know anything about STJ having some problems in the past but the name probably did cause some issues. Most of the controversy surrounds the martial industrial genre. After looking it over, the whole article needs to be expanded and updated with references and I will do so in time. bloodofox: 16:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I agree Martial Industrial is a lot more controversial. I'll see if I can dig up some source, but I thought I remembered some non-Nazi-related controversy with neofolk also, mostly over its Eurocentrism, which some left-wing German critics accuse of being ethnocentric/nationalistic/volkish. Belborn also got criticized for appearing on one of the VAWS compilations I think. --Delirium 17:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Replying to my own post, this (from die tageszeitung) is somewhat representative of the common attack pieces. First sentence of the subtitle: "A right-wing publisher organizes today in Oberhausen a Neofolk-festival". In addition to the usual criticisms of VAWS, it quotes a university professor who says Eis und Licht "tries to open the neofolk and darkwave scenes for right-wing thoughts". And of course that Ästhetische Mobilmachung book is basically an attack piece like this expanded to book length. I don't agree with most of these attacks, but it's a big part of contemporary German cultural debate, so I think we should cover it here. --Delirium 17:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've wondered about this before, regarding Eis & Licht. I can only assume that the label is attacked so much because it is a German label. I would say that the label is actually one of the most uncontroversial labels dealing in that sort of music, even in Germany, making such reports all the more funny. bloodofox: 18:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Neoclassical vs. Neoclassicistic
I checked the links in this article and found a little term problem. In the english wikipedia, neoclassical means neoclassicistic... but that's wrong. There is a difference between these genres. Neoclassical is an outgrowth of the music of Dead Can Dance and In The Nursery in the late '80s. It's modern classical... or freestyle classical. That's not the same like neoclassicism... --Menorrhea 02:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the terms are overloaded. In neofolk/martial/industrial/etc. circles, "neoclassical" usually means music that uses instrumentation typical of classical music (violins, pianos, etc.), and is broadly neoclassicist in terms of subject matter and style (atmospheric; themes of past glory; album covers are often ancient ruins; etc.).  Groups like Arditi, A Challenge of Honour, etc. are frequently described as "neoclassical" in reviews and interviews.  So basically I think we should clarify this at neoclassical, to make clear that the term means different things to different subcultures. --Delirium 00:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Generally when someone refers to "Neoclassical" in the subculture, they're actually refering to Neoclassical (Darkwave). I tried having this discussion with editors on the Martial Industrial page, and although these individuals actually knew nothing of the genre, kept on deleting my edits. Big difference between Neoclassical and Neoclassical Darkwave.JanderVK (talk) 16:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Tunng neofolk
Tunng seems to be a neofolk band by listening to them. - viz bullets. It meets the definition (apart from they sing in English, they do not flirt with NAZI imagery - oh but wait a minute those aren't criteria for neo-folk) can we add them?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.178.239 (talk) 02:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Anything added should have a clear and reliable source.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 06:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Folk vs. NeoFolk
"Occultism"? Reading about Neofolk, I can't see much commonality with the 1960s Folk movement at all. I can't understand why this label would be applied to this style of music. Folk had to do with acoustic instrumentation, traditional folk tunes and songs with political themes. Is there any of these elements in Neofolk? 64.134.71.74 (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Conflation of of "neo-folk" with Neofolk
I would not consider some of the "notable artists" listed here to be part of the neofolk genre. Artists like Shana Cleveland, Emily Jane White, Woodkid and others lack many of the stylistic and thematic hallmarks of the genre, namely distinct influence from and/or association with Death in June, common neofolk themes and motifs (things like European heritage, paganism, runes, esotericism/magic, native folklore, Nietzsche, Evola, traditionalism etc.) and who just bear no association with the neofolk scene in general. I followed up on the sources which were used to identify these artists and neofolk, and they mainly seem to be reviews which refer to their style as "neo-folk", rather than the correct unhyphenated name of the genre to which this article pertains. I believe it is probable that critics more or less ignorant of the rather underground neofolk scene referred to these artists as "neo-folk" in the sense that they play music that could be considered to be influenced by "folk" (especially in the Bob Dylan sense rather than the traditional European sense) in the present day, hence "neo-folk", rather than suggesting they actually belong to the true neofolk genre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.234.10 (talk) 16:33, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Strength Through Joy
The link in the list of "notable artists" redirects to the Nazi organization rather than to an article about a (group of) musician(s), so it should be removed or changed. As I couldn't find an article about the artist(s) to which I could link and I'm no expert on neofolk, I wanted to leave that to somebody more qualified. However, the fact that there is no article (yet), leaves me with the impression, that "Strength Through Joy" should maybe be removed from the list of "notable artists"? 79.220.233.187 (talk) 09:07, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks, good catch. I went through the rest of the artists listed in that section and found that Scivias is also in that category: a link to an article that isn't about a music group, where we seem to have no article on the music group. I've removed both Scivias and Strength Through Joy from this section as a result. The section could still use cutting down I think, to be a shorter list of reasonably canonical neofolk groups, not just a listing of every band that has a Wikipedia article and has at one time or another been described as "neofolk" (a genre category might be a better fit for that). --Delirium (talk) 13:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)