Talk:Nerf (video gaming)/Archive 1

Discussion
I question this article's focus on nerfing as changes to item rarity and especially botting (I've never heard it directly applied to bots). From what I've seen, players use the word to emphasize the replacing of one aspect of the game with another, weaker one (for balancing or fixing bugs/"exploits"). For example, in the context of EQ, I don't remember anyone calling it a nerf when Jboots stopped being lootable (same with Rubicite and the Box of Abu). But when they gimped "damage over time" spells the "DoT nerf" was the biggest discussion topic, or when the replaced the "Pumice Stone" item with a weaker version there was the "pumice nerf".

Basically, the article should cite significant examples from games like UO and WarCraft. I don't want to change the theme of the article without explanation, but the examples that I can recall or find have little to do with bots. --Mrwojo 19:03, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well Nerfing isnt really related to the bots. Read the history bit I added. A nerf in itself is just a negativ change to an object / item. The reason for a nerf can be many. It could be as mentioned abuse or that the game master decides the effort to reward ratio is skewered. We shouldnt get hung up in details. And if anything we should have a section named reasons for nerf. Then have a short list with balance issues abuse issues etc etc.

Botting is something that should have a seperat article. And in this article should focus on the term and just refer to the issues of botting. I do not belive we need a seperat description of what botting in this article. --MediaMogul 16:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In general this article is beyond repair - I would suggest a complete rewrite, if I knew how to. The segments seem fragmented and conversational, with much less base in fact than personal experience/opinion.

As far as nerfing goes, it seems fairly obvious what its nature is - except for some examples, it doesnt seem to need to be more than a stub/wiki-dictionary article. --istand1337

History
When the term was used for the first time is lost to history, but here is a generally accepted background for the term in the cyber world. It is a word used to describe the action of making something less potent. Usually refering to a weapon in a digital enviroment. The word comes from the NERF toy brand which specialise in safe indoor toys for children. The comparison was origionally used to compare how the game masters had made a powerful weapon into something useless like a soft toy. While this spesific refrence is lost on most people today the meaning and use of the words is spreading as MMORPG's become more popular.

The reason for the term to be mostly used in an MMORPG enviroment is because unlike other game/cyber settings an MMORPG is constantly changing and trying to balance itself. MMORPG's always try to keep the reward relativ to the effort needed to achive it. It is usually when the balance between the reward and effort is skewed in the favor of the reward that a nerf occurs.

In todays world the term is used not just on weapons but basically any action that reduces the potency of an object be it digital or real.

Gathering resources to sell on-line
Additionally, there are many professional players that play for the explicit purpose of gathering resources to sell on-line at places such as eBay. (emphasis added)

I can't see the need for the bolded bit. Brianjd 09:02, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)


 * I changed it to be more generic, yet more descriptive:
 * ...resources to sell at e-commerce websites.
 * --Mrwojo 14:56, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * The industry-standard term for this is RMT, I've updated it to reflect this. Hippoking 22:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Economic effects of nerfing
Nerfing the drop rate of an item merely increases the scarcity, driving up the price, and increasing the profits from botting in this manner.

This has to wrong. Nerfing affects both demand (since players don't get the items they want) and supply (the nuumber of items the bots get) the same way, so the profitability should not be affected, right?


 * "Nerfing the drop rate" alone (as in simply decreasing the drop rate, which doesn't quite fit how it's defined here) would just increase rarity, but nerfing the drop rate and item quality would affect supply and demand. Demand might even increase exponentially, if the item becomes a status symbol.  And now that I think of it, this article could do with a section on "pre-nerf." --Varuka 17:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, there's a lot of speculation in this article. For example, let's say the drop rate was reduced to 10% of its original, yet the value of the item only increased by 100%. The bot may get double the value for the item, but it only gets 10% as many, causing a net loss. Need to remove this sort of speculation from the article, it doesn't belong in wikipedia. --JRavn 17:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

General
This article is terribly written - can someone fix this?
 * Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes&mdash;they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome.

I corrected a small mistake in the article stating UO was the first MMORPG (as you can see in the MMORPG article, there were several before hand), as well as changing the claim from being "origin" to "popularized," because I'm fairly sure the term was sparringly used (but "castrated" was the prefered term) on Meridian59 beforehand. --Varuka 17:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Is any weakening a nerf?
It seemed to me that the term is properly used only when something (typically a weapon) is weakened to a dramatic degree such that it is arguably (or obviously) no longer effective. This generally includes the notion that the item's presence in the game is now pretty meaningless as it is clearly underperforming compared to other choices. I haven't really heard the term used to describe typically minor adjustments that bring the item in line with others but rather when the item is brought down well beneath its kin... especially when its something that looks very dangerous but now isn't.

Am I the only one who thinks 'nerf' is more narrowly defined than this article suggests?

Btw... often, it seems, this is a circumstance of a developer getting wasted by some online player who is simply very skilled, and the developer consequently decides that particular weapon must be too powerful and nerfs it. Increasingly modern games are starting to generate a lot of statistical information, however. So developers can make adjustments based on real data rather than just how frustrated they feel after playing online themselves... sometimes those decisions have been more based on frustration than good judgement.

Overkill...
'Nerf' is an off-hand, slang term at best. Is a discussion on game balance with the word 'Nerf' in place of normal terms like 'reduction' really appropriate? Reducing the potency of something is not concept unique to gaming, even with a different word. The following:

 Nerfs are often implemented as an anti-botting tactic. A classic scenario is a situation where a player runs a bot to gather items of loot by killing monsters repeatedly. Nerfing the drop rate of monsters seems like a reasonable solution to lower the incentive for botting. However, this may also harm legitimate players, as they now have a much lower reward for their play time. Meanwhile, any loot gathered by a bot is sufficient to induce continued botting. Excessive nerfing may also frustrate legitimate players to the point where they begin botting themselves, simply so they can spend their time playing instead of constantly gathering resources. Additionally, there are many professional players that play for the explicit purpose of gathering resources to sell at e-commerce websites. Nerfing the drop rate of an item merely increases the scarcity, driving up the price, and increasing the profits from botting in this manner. Sometimes designers will nerf objects that are particularly useful in powerleveling. This is to prevent players from rapidly levelling characters to be sold off on e-commerce websites. 

could go in a section about online games perhaps? But not under the header "Nerf," which probably should be Wiki-dictionaried anyway.

86.135.158.232 04:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Articles about other concepts such as ageism and semantics could be summed up in fewer words than nerfing, but that doesn't mean they don't belong in a encyclopedia.  If people can provide the theory, history, and detail to back it up, why not have the wikipedia entry? - Varuka 19:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Non-computer games
I play several tabletop roleplaying games and the term 'nerfing' is in common use. The name of the article could be changed to simply "Nerf (gaming)" to reflect this.


 * Moreover, is there any evidence of the word nerf being used outside the gaming community? Has it entered into general language? 02:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Big edit
Ok I have pretty much rewritten the entire article. I think I was able to clarify and simply it to a state where you can easier see what it is about. --MediaMogul 10:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Per your talk page, I've reversed this for now. While I agree that the article's current content could be condensed, that's the least of its problems just now. I'll work on incorporating the additions you made. Chris Cunningham 10:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Antonym?
Is anyone aware of an antonym for nerf as regards game-balance? It would basically be a game upgrade that adds increased ability/functionality to a skill, item or whatever. The anti-bot portion is not a concern. Just wondering as someone asked me and I could not think of an appropriate term. Sabardeyn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.163.242 (talk) 03:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Buff, boost. Jack the Stripper (talk) 13:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

discussion of origin removed?
this term originated in Ultima Online ... I remember that used to be in the article, but I guess it was lost through edits? sad. 216.234.58.18 20:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yuhhuh, I was just thinking about Ultima Online too. I remember something about a sword being nerfed and then everyone complaining that they'd been "nerfed" because they did about as much damage as if you'd hit someone with a nerf sword. Someone else who can remember more or has a source can edit that in.. -(BrutusCirrus (talk) 11:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC))
 * If you look at the history on the 2 August mention of Ultima Online was removed claiming that the term was apparent before in MUDs. Anyone got a source or anymore information? -(BrutusCirrus (talk) 11:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC))