Talk:Netball/Archive 2

Where did this game start?
"While basically unknown in its homeland," -The homeland is never named as far as I can see! If the U.S. is meant (since basketball was invented there), I question the statement (I am an American and quite familiar with the game, since we used to watch girls play it in the fifties and sixties. I doubt that all those girls and the boys watching no longer know of this game). if another country is meant, then pleasee name it! Or does the text mean something else by "unknown" - e.g., "rarely seen"? Kdammers 10:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the US is meant. Michael 05:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

speed is a key elemt in netball. right? there are no mention on netball player positions and which position is generally the speediest? will there soon be a netball positions information area?


 * Basketball was invented by a Canadian who began developing his game in Ontario before finalizing it in the US, after he got a job down there. Varlaam (talk) 19:23, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Rule variants
Today I heard part of an item on Radio New Zealand National about some rule changes being trialled, including a "2-pointer". Who's up with the play there? Robin Patterson (talk) 09:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They would have been talking about the World Netball Series. Two-pointers are one of a whole host of rule changes they're trialling, kinda like Twenty20. I'll get around to adding information on the world series to this article soon, I promise :). Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Netball lovers
There are many netball lovers! And the sport should be involved in more schools, and entered in more competions! I love the sport netball and maybe one day you will! so get out the get involved as you never know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.196.105 (talk) 18:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

What's the result of solo-play?
See the topic name, because I know Basketball allow solo-play but Korfball and Netball are not allow to make it.--Pierce (talk) 22:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you're asking. If you're talking about solo basketball, then neither korfball or netball has any equivalent variant. In netball you can't move while holding the ball, which means you need more than one player (rules require at least five), while korfball requires male and female players in each team. Let me know if you meant something else. – Liveste (talk • edits) 02:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Recent revisions, better history
An improvement on the 'invented by Clara Baer' story which I think used to head the article, the yahoo answers version if you will, a slightly nationalistic history aimed at kids. The article looks a tad more encyclopedic. Hakluyt bean (talk) 21:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Women?
It says nowhere that netball is virtually a womans-only sport. That's a pretty big part of the game's character... 86.200.86.80 (talk) 13:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It says so in the lead section: it says that "[n]etball is popular in Commonwealth nations and is predominantly played by women". Graham 87 15:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Paragraph makes no sense
"Netball traces its roots to basketball. Basketball was devised in 1891 by James Naismith for his students in the School for Christian Workers (later called the YMCA). Female teachers got curious and started to formulate a version for girls. The outfits of women at this time prohibited them from effectively executing important basketball moves such as running and dribbling, so the game had to be modified to accommodate these restrictions. Women’s basketball was thus born."

So was it netball or women's basketball which was born in this way ?? Makes no sense.Eregli bob (talk) 06:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The paragraph indicates that "women's basketball was thus born". The transition from women's basketball to netball is explained in the next two sections, although it's a bit confusing. I'll revise the entire History section tonight to hopefully make things clearer. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 03:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten the History section. Much of the information comes from History of netball, hopefully without going into too much detail. Let me know if the information is still unclear. Cheers again. – Liveste (talk • edits) 13:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Women's sport
I've twice reverted the description of netball being a "women's sport" in the opening sentence. Netball is not exclusively played by women: men's and mixed teams exist at most levels, if not all. The dominance of women in the sport is already mentioned in the lede, and I don't believe it needs to be repeated there. Please add any relevant comments and opinions below. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 01:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments
The table containing comments regarding the roles of the various players is inaccurate :

For example: GS	This player must get past the Goal Keeper of the other team. He or she can move within the "attacking" goal third, including the shooting circle. The above is not true, as at times the GS may be defended by a player other than the GK. Also, the "get past" is inaccurate as it may serve the GS to get behind the defending player and receive a lob pass.

The description from Netball Australia's website is much better i.e. "The main task of the Goal Shooter is to score goals." 9 February 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.84.20 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * NA has a pretty good outline of each position. I'm a bit unsure about describing the "roles" of each position at length, since any description could be POV unless it's actually stated in official guidelines. It might be more useful to include a diagram or table of the allowed areas for each position. Thoughts? – Liveste (talk • edits) 07:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * If anyone is still involved in the netball project, maybe it might be worth spinning off the positions into their own articles? Or in the context of this article and trying to improve it, would it be worth expanding the positions, list some of the more well known international players in those positions?  I don't know if there is much on how these positions have evolved but I haven't looked much at the sources that would have details about that.  --LauraHale (talk) 11:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * There's probably enough information out there to source articles on each of the netball positions. Basic articles should do fine. The Netball WikiProject sorta stalled in 2008 a few months after it was created. I'll ask a couple of editors to see if it's worth reviving again. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Quoting Talk:Netball/GA1: replied the flaw questions of user
If the questions are flawed, maybe you should take it as a sign that you are not being clear and that my questions are a sign of trying to get clarity that you implied on your talk page I hadn't sought. I'm not trying to be difficult. This isn't personal. I want to improve this article. I want to get it to good article status. I'm trying desperately hard to work with you to do that. I added sections. I took away sections. I solicited feedback. I explained why I could not do what you asked. I repeatedly asked for concrete examples of where the text did not meet with your approval towards getting good article status. (I'll not you still have not provided examples in the text of the article of where the article is biased.) All I want to do is either work with you to get the article to good status, or to find some one else to work with. This isn't personal. I just do not understand the points you are trying to communicate to me. It would really help our communication if you could quote the article, directly referencing the text when trying to communicate with me. If we can't communicate effectively, could you find another person to offer a second opinion who can help us resolve our communication gap? (Copy and pasted to Talk:Netball/GA1.) --LauraHale (talk) 09:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Trying to fix NPOV issues
In my opinion, Racepacket reviewed both Netball and Netball in the Cook Islands with the clear intention of pushing a point of view that the sport was not popular in general, and specifically was not popular in the Cook Islands. This can be seen by his repeated claims of wanting more information on the popularity of the game, by his insistence in saying "X amount of countries of the Y amount of countries in Africa are affiliated with the regional federation." He wanted similar statements in every region. He wanted the total percentage of players as a representation of the country's total population. In my opinion, he wanted to know how many teams competed and to let people know that they were ranked X out of Y, to make the game appear less popular. In my opinion, he wanted to irresponsibly gender the article to highlight the fact that the game is played by women, and is thus less popular and less credible. He wanted to remove the country sections and information on statistics that showed relative popularity by country. In my opinion, he tried to get phrases like "most popular women's participation sport" in the country removed and alleged biasthey were biased, even if there were citations that supported this claim, in order to make it appear as if netball was less popular. In my opinion, he wanted to remove the Olympic sport part because by removing the Olympics, he makes the game appear less popular and credible as a sport. He demanded its removal even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In my opinion, he tried to diminish the importance of international competitions by treating international federations, similar to CONCACAF and CONMEBOL for FIFA into regional leagues that countries in the area compete in. Racepacket also kept on insisting the sport be compared to basketball. In my opinion, this was another case of trying to diminish netball's global popularity by forcing comparisons to an American sport that he feels is more popular and makes netball appear less popular. In my opinion, he wanted spectator numbers for netball in the Cook Islands to show that the game was not popular there because no one watched it in person. (This in a country with 23,000 or so people, with 13,000 or so total people on the most populated island.)

Given that we tried really hard to make any reasonable accommodation we could in order to try to get the article into good status, we may have helped him in his Point of View pushing. (Copying and pasting his suggestions along the line of "X # of countries out of # on Y continent have member federations" was an easy accommodation, easy to fix and made it feel like we were making progress towards getting closer to good article status.)  Thus, I think we need to seriously look at some of the edits we made to accommodate, determine if that information is actually needed and how to address this problem before we resubmit. :/ --LauraHale (talk) 12:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am very surprised to hear you raise this for the first time today. A few days ago, you claimed that I was sexist, racist, someone so immersed in American culture that I could not see the perspectives of other cultures, and now you claim that I am anti-Netball.  I think that most of the NPOV concerns were raised at the start of the review by Bill, but were not fully addressed.  We have to remove Words to Watch whether they are pro-Netball or anti-Netball.  We have to frame statistics so that they are neutral and in context.  If I make a suggestion off the top of my head, as the subject matter expert you are free to correct me or to suggest alternatives.  This is a collegial process.  The X countries out of Y statistics came directly from the IFNA website — how could they be anti-Netball?  Again, it is best to discuss such concerns one at a time in the review rather than waiting a week, leaving the review. and trying to develop a post-hoc objection to the manner the review is being conducted. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 19:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't really followed this article, although I've watched the Netball in the Cook Islands a little more closely. A peer review might be a good idea. Although the most common use of peer review is as preparation for FAC, it's open to all articles. Peer reviews are generally lower-pressure, more collegiate and more improvement-focussed than GAN, which given the circumstances is probably the order of the day. —WFC— 17:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * WFC: Thank you for your peer review suggestion. I think that we are very close to getting the GA. It is typical for at least one peer review to occur between a GA and an FAC submission.  We have had three different people weigh in with detailed review comments - Bill, KnowIG and myself, I suspect that we have had the benefits of that process.  I am trying to keep the GA collegial and improvement=focused, so let's see how it ends up. Racepacket (talk) 19:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Dimentions originally in imperial measurements?
Since 30.48 m is exactly 100 ft, and 15.24% m is exactly 50 ft, it seems logical that all the measurements in netball are still in feet and inches (which makes sense because of the history of the game). Therefore, I think that all measurements should be initially given in feet/inches with metric conversions in brackets per the guidelines about units of measurement. Any comments? Graham 87 01:02, 27 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Are the standards in metric or imperial in the netball guidelines? The book I was using for a source had the measurements all in metric. That was why I tweaked that bit.  I'd opt for metric measurements over imperial ones just because the game appears to be played in places where metric is the default measurement.  (Er. And that whole section needs sourcing.) --LauraHale (talk) 02:21, 27 February 2011 (UTC)


 * My guess is that they were probably originally in imperial units and, when the use of the metric system became more common, they were converted into metric units without any rounding. Graham 87  13:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That'd be my guess too, but I'll try to find out for sure. – Liveste (talk • edits) 07:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * According to Netball Australia, the current IFNA official rules list court measurements in metric units. They would have been in imperial units previously, I'd guess. – Liveste (talk • edits) 02:02, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't suppose you could clean up the measurements part of the article with the proper cites? :) --LauraHale (talk) 02:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. I've also removed some older information that was unsourced, as well as some redundant info. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Awesome. Thanks. :) Any help in cleaning up the how to play sections would also be much appreciated.  I don't have a clue how to play and I'm not sure what should be in there.  (Should the bibs thing get more attention?  It is mentioned in the player section but not really elsewhere.  That seems to fall under the equipment, but it isn't mentioned in the info box.)  And given that there are no articles about the positions in netball, should there be sections for individual positions, examples of famous players in those positions, theory on how to play that position, or how that position has evolved over time?   Should beach netball be included as a variant?  (I didn't include dragon netball as a variant as it looks like another attempt at what other countries have done, in creating child friendly versions.) --LauraHale (talk) 12:46, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

History of netball
As the history of netball article appears to be quite good and well cited, is there any good way to copy and paste a summary to help improve the article? --LauraHale (talk) 04:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Laura. The History section of this article was added about a year ago (by me) in response to an earlier discussion on this talk page. I intended it to be a summary of the History of netball article, but without repeating large chunks of text from that article, which I thought might be annoying to readers. Mind you it was a rather hurriedly written summary, so any ideas for improvements would be welcome. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 07:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The history of netball article looks not so bad. I just wanted to make sure the citations were there and that, as a summary, it was accurate.  I started to add information myself and then realized that I probably shouldn't. :) --LauraHale (talk) 11:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Netball in Oceania
Would love some help with this section. The netball in Australia article isn't as good at the netball in New Zealand article so I'm trying to put more Australian information into this section. The problem is the section lacks cohesion. It feels like a lot of random information that should be in the article. I just can't figure out how to make it into a cohesive narrative. :/ --LauraHale (talk) 09:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Impressive compilation of references. It might be easier to write a few basic paragraphs on worldwide popularity in this article, and move the specific information to individual "Netball by " articles (we only have two at the moment). Association football has a featured article on Wikipedia, so it may be useful for inspiration. Regarding Netball in Australia, both User:Rebecca and I started drafts for expanding the article but never got around to finishing them (mine's here; drop Rebecca a line if you want to use her information). – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I thought about doing that, with taking those sections and moving them to Netball in COUNTRY. I asked some one who went has repeatedly gone through the process of trying to get an article featured.  Their advice was to keep them.  The netball in New Zealand article is pretty good.  I've spent some time on that section, but not as much as other sections.  My recall from having looked at Netball in Australia was that it wasn't very good so I kind of started from scratch.  The content in the section could probably be copy and pasted to the Netball in Australia article.  (Or conversely use the drafts that you've cited in that article or in this article.)  I'll probably continue to add some information in there, because it seems really important to have that section big if the article we want to get it up to the next level.


 * Babbling and sleepy. The Association football articles has the rules much more clear than this one.  That article also appears to have been featured in 2006, with the rules having changed a bit more.  (I could be wrong.) Category:FA-Class cricket articles probably has better and more recent examples.


 * Not sold on organization of this article. I just am not really sure how to do it.  (I'm also a radical inclusionist.) It might just be nice to have the netball by country, develop additional content around the rules, variations, major competitions and then re-evaluate the status of the netball by country thing.  Still, open to idea.s --LauraHale (talk) 12:41, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm amazed at how quickly you're able to find esoteric information – damn impressive. I had a look at other similar sports articles, and found that Wikipedia has only two FAs (association football and baseball) and one GA (field lacrosse) for general sports articles, so unfortunately they're the best yardsticks we've got for overall organisation (although association football looks set for FAR). (If this article ever gets to FA (in time for the World Champs?) it could set some examples of its own for other sports articles.) This article has sort of grown ad-hoc over the years, so I wonder if we should start a new article structure from scratch, and develop the article holistically from there. Thoughts? – Liveste (talk • edits) 08:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not intentionally looking for esoteric information. I'm looking to either build sections or find existing citations.  If I find a citation, I tend to toss everything and the kitchen sink in around it.  The association football article is probably going to get delisted as an FA article.  It needs about two weeks before that happens.  The citations on that article die off about half way through and it has some other major issues.  The Australian rules football article is probably better than the association football article in terms of pure content and quality of writing.  That Aussie rules article could probably squeak through an FA approval if that alone was done.  --LauraHale (talk) 09:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm all for trying to reconfigure it. It might not actually need to be done.  If I was adding much new structure, I'd probably blow out the section on the player types, and their roles.  I'd also add a section based on famous players.  I went to Borders recently, looked at the books they have on the shelves.  Most of those books had lots and lots of information on the players.  Given that the books run that way, it seems like a section worth developing.  Have small biographies for say the top 10 players, totally subjective who we think are great. --LauraHale (talk) 09:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The by country sections can probably be taken apart or moved to stub pages unless we say have two good paragraphs for them. That should limit things and still provide enough information for a good article.  Maybe change the heading for that and just remove popularity.  In the front of each region, talk more about IFNA in that region.  And the competitions need more information.  (Citing them is a pain in the ass.) --LauraHale (talk) 09:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Competitions
I've integrated the major national competitions into the sections about that country. (Or region, as is the case with the ANZ Championship.) I've also moved information on the youth tournament out, trying to integrate that information back into the specific regions. The one series named after a New Zealand company? I couldn't find a source for it to keep it in.

The Commonwealth Games section could probably use an improvement. It would be great to see a picture put in it. The problem I worry about is making that section a lot better than the actual article about netball at the commonwealth games. (I've just edited that page to add citations. Which.  Annoying, it lacked.)

Any other thoughts regarding how to organize this section? --LauraHale (talk) 12:30, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The Nations Cup
Is this competition very important to the netball community as a major international event? Does it warrant its own section? If yes, I'll work on improving it and the citations. I just haven't found a handy little table like the one for the two other tournies to make writing about it easier. I'll keep looking for sources. --LauraHale (talk) 01:57, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It's an example of a second-tier international tournament, played largely by second- and third-tier national teams. We should only exclude it if we want to limit mentions of international competitions to the World Champs, Comm Games and World Series (and probably World Youth Champs); if not, then it's the highest of the second-tier tournaments (in addition to being the only other intercontinental one) and should probably remain. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 08:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I eventually tossed it into its own section because it was eating the top of the Asian section and there was no additional information about Asia as a whole there. If we can figure out how to write an introduction for Asia that mentions the Asian competition and the Nations Cup competition, then we can it back out of its own section? --LauraHale (talk) 09:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

citation errors
Major oops on my part. :( When there are multiple authors, I didn't realize that I needed to list them all in that harvb template.  That has caused some of the links to have a major case of fail. Meep. :( Lots of annoying things to fix. --LauraHale (talk) 10:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * All fixed! --LauraHale (talk) 04:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Weee. :D There are no uncited sentences. On to the next task. --LauraHale (talk) 05:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Netball by country
My thinking at the moment is unless there are four sentences and / or a list of events the country has hosted and the country's performance in major competition, that the information be moved to a stub page for the country. Not quite ready to do that but getting closer to that stage where it might need to be moved or removed. --LauraHale (talk) 04:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Demographic appeal women
Is that section needed? Most of the article specifically deals with women. The history section deals specifically with a lot of these issues. It is dealt with in many of the country sections. The mens and transsexual/transgendered sections are there mostly because these groups are under represented in the netball community. --LauraHale (talk) 05:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Other known problems
There are brackets that need to be removed around years and other dates. --LauraHale (talk) 01:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Repitition
There is a problem with repetition in the article. I need help in getting rid of that. It comes from trying to use the same source information in multiple sections. --01:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LauraHale (talk • contribs)

How many countries play netball?
United States of America Netball Association (USANA), Inc. says people in over 70 countries. Van Bottenburg says 40 countries. Is there a way to resolve this? --LauraHale (talk) 02:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Who knows ... there isn't much information out there. Van Bottenburg's figure comes from a 1998 analysis of Olympic and IOC-recognised sports. The IFNA's figure is (presumably) their own but it's from around 2007 (it's still quoted on their website, and could be used to replace the removed Game Plan 2007–2011 citation). On the one hand, Van Bottenburg's figure is more than 12 years old; but on the other, the IFNA isn't a third-party source. Of interest, the 1998 data listed 91 "rugby"-playing countries, while the IOC site today mentions 117 affiliates . Based on this, an estimate of 60 or 70-odd current netball-playing nations isn't unreasonable, so ultimately I'd recommend the IFNA figure. – Liveste (talk • edits) 08:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Ug. Confusing mess. :(  I'll leave you to resolve that one and the sourcing as I really don't know enough about it to make a good judgment call. --LauraHale (talk) 09:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Adopted IFNA figure of 70+ countries. Wasn't sure about how best to cite the page, since it isn't dated. – Liveste (talk • edits) 00:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for handling that and doing the assessment for other articles in the category. :) (And if you're feeling courageous, would be awesome if you could do the good article review for Netball in the Cook Islands. --LauraHale (talk) 03:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

South Africa and apartheid
I've put the apartheid era information in for South Africa and Jamaica. It could possibly also go in the England section and the New Zealand section but that seems like over kill. It could probably use some condensing. Another strategy may be to integrate apartheid era issues into the overall history section or to put it into another section. Any help addressing this would be appreciated as apartheid had a big impact on the sport. --LauraHale (talk) 02:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Australia
Added another more modern picture and more information about Australia. Section still needs work, highlighting netball in school more. The section could also use an improvement in terms of the national team coverage and more recent history. There may be some trivia found in the section that could be removed. --LauraHale (talk) 03:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources once used but not any more
I wanted to post a list of sources that were once list in the article but are no longer referenced. This is in case additional citations are needed or there are later citation issues. I'm working towards removing them from the article shortly.



--LauraHale (talk) 02:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Confederation of Southern Africa(n) Netball Association(s)?
There are four variations on the name of the COSANA: the Confederation of Southern Africa Netball Association, the Confederation of Southern Africa Netball Associations, the Confederation of Southern African Netball Association or the Confederation of Southern African Netball Associations. The last one is the only gramatically correct title, as there is no confederation of southern africa, and the association does not exist to confederate South African netball ... it's a *confederation* of the various national netball associations of Southern Africa. All four variants of the title appear on the Internet in relatively reliable sources: see respectively this Times of Zambia article, this IFNA calendar (PDF), this media release from the Government of Lesotho, and this Nyasa Times article. However in Google Books, the grammatically correct title is the only one to get more than one result ... which isn't saying an awful lot! I'm leaning towards changing the COSANA's name to its grammatically correct version in all Wikipedia articles, but the IFNA does use a variant of it in its events calendar. What do you all think? Is there a better way to determine the *correct* name of the confederation? Graham 87 08:21, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Had not realized there was no consistent spelling for that name. I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe use Confederation of Southern African Netball Assoications (COSANA) and then refer to the organization as COSANA in the rest of the article? --LauraHale (talk) 08:47, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that's the best way forward; it seems that it's normally referred to as "CASANA" anyway. Interestingly, there's no such problem with a Google search for the Confederation of Southern African Football Associations or its variants ... I'd put that down to lazy journalism and the fact that netball generally has a lower profile than football/soccer. Graham 87 09:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Women's basketball
References to women's basketball were earlier removed from this article, which has resulted in a somewhat misleading account of netball's early history. Women's basketball played a key role in the early development of netball, which I'll try to summarise below:

During the 1890s and early 20th century there were clear differences in the way basketball was played by men and women; there were also variations in each of these two forms. Women's basketball rules had a clear influence on the rules of netball, which were not derived from Naismith's original game alone, or even directly (I'd love to see Peter McIntosh's exact wording on the issue; I can't access it online). The AENA mentions women's rules being introduced in 1897; "basketball" was being played before this time, although which version isn't specified (you could present arguments for either men's or women's). Jobling and Barham (see History of netball) specifically mention the Spalding rules for women being incorporated into the codified rules of netball. In addition, both netball and women's basketball were similarly designed to accommodate contemporary notions on the participation of women in sport (of the usual "unladylike" and "too strenuous" sort).

Removing references in this article to women's basketball, despite current issues on its status, glosses over a significant factor in netball's early development. I intend to restore the references, while making it clear that there were variations in the rules of basketball in the United States, several of which influenced the development of netball in England. Comments welcome. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 16:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

McIntosh says: "Madam Osterberg had heself introduced the American game of Basketball to her Hampstead College and to this country. Her students developed Netball from it.  It was found to be suited to the grounds of a country house and flourished in the new setting." That is on page 292. On page 293, it says "C. Lawrence and M. Hankison, E.R. Clarke and E. Adair Impey, for example, were key figures in establishing of national governing bodies for women in Hockey, Lacrosse an Netball respectively, and in general the Osterberg Girls were to play collectively, a role in women's sports not unlike that of the A.P.T.C., through the years, in the corresponding areas for men." That's page 293. The reference refers to the game as American. To a degree, this is also supported by the All England Netball Association Golden Jubilee book: "1895: Visit of Dr. Toles, an American, to Madame Osterberg's P.T. College (then at Hampstead). Students were taught Basket Ball -- indoors -- no printed rules -- no lines, ircles or boundaries.  The goals were two waste paper baskets hung on walls at each end of the hall." Also on page 13: "1897: Game played out of doors on grass. An American lady paid a visit to the College (moved to Dartford), and taught the game as then played by women in American.  The students at Dartford introduced rings instead of baskets, the larger ball and the division of the ground into three courts." These two quotes from the All England Netball Association demonstrate the game that they learned was Basket Ball, or basketball. There is no clear indication that American women were playing a distinct form of Basketball, that had separate and unique rules that were different than the game being played by men. Hence, the use of Women's Basketball as a distinct sport unique from Basketball is inappropriate and causes confusion. Women's Basketball is also used as the official name of the sport in New Zealand and Australia until 1970. Using the term Women's Basketball, with out some mention that the term "women's basketball" is another name for netball, adds unwanted confusion and can be clarified by doing away with women as an adjective, especially as the idea that women's basketball that netball came from is not supported in earlier references. --LauraHale (talk) 20:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing McIntosh's wording; it's much the same as the AENA information. Regarding basketball history, the fact that women were using different rules for basketball than men were during the 1890s is very clear, and well supported by references. I'm surprised you hadn't come across the women's rules of the game during your research. The references in the History of netball article ("Origins from basketball" section) give a good insight into the unique rules of women's basketball, particularly Shattering the glass: the remarkable history of women's basketball by Grundy and Shackleford, and Senda Berenson: the unlikely founder of women's basketball by Ralph Melnick. – Liveste (talk • edits) 23:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The sources that I've read have not suggested that basketball played by women in the United States during the 1890s was a unique sport. The books I've been reading have all basically said that the game played by men and by women were both basketball.  Added to that, the one source I cited either above or below appears to indicate that the game which the first attempts at playing netball was derived from was a game being played by men.    If you strongly believe and feel you have the sources to support the roots of netball are a unique game that is not "basketball" and is instead a unique game called "women's basketball," then any references in the article should probably be prefaced with American to avoid confusion with Women's Basketball, IE Netball. --LauraHale (talk)


 * No-one is saying that women's basketball is, or ever was, a separate sport. I'd consider it a gender-specific version. But however you frame it, there were clearly different versions of the rules played by men and women during the 1890s. Grundy and Shackelford (pp 26–7) wrote about Senda Berenson introducing basketball to her students: "Berenson responded by creating a set of women's rules. She divided the court into three equal sections and assigned each player to one. Forwards played under a team's home basket, centers roamed the middle section and guards patrolled the opposing team's goal. Teams could have anywhere from five to ten players, but no-one could venture outside her assigned section. As dribbling developed, it sped up the men's game, but Berenson forbade her players to dribble more than three times per possession. She banned physical contact of any kind. Such rules, she explained, allowed women to develop qualities such as 'alertness, accuracy, coolness and presence of mind under trying circumstances,' while minimizing rough play."
 * If no one is contending that women's basketball is a separate sport, which is the impression that I am under from Racepacket's insistence on gendering basketball and insisting that American women's basketball is the historical root of English women's basketball/netball, I'm not sure what the issue is. The origins from basketball do not need to be gendered as it would be inappripiate.  Beyond that, Berenson and her rules are not cited in a single netball source that I've seen as inspiring the Ling Association rules.  The Ling Association rules are always cited as being inspired by Naismith's sport of basketball.  In addition to that, what you describe for Berenson appears to match with the early rules of basketball developed by Naismith in the period between 1891 and 1895: Flexibility for the number of players per side, no contact between players, no dribbling, players confined to certain parts of the court, no physical contact. --LauraHale (talk) 23:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As I can find no sources that link Berenson's rules with the origins of netball, it may be a better fit to have this information on an article comparing and contrasting netball to basketball, or on the history of netball article. If Berenson is going to be mentioned as a source for netball, then she should be cited by netball texts as inspiring the game... and she's just not.  The sources I've cited have all gone back to Naismith.  --LauraHale (talk) 23:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * To reiterate, my contention is that women's basketball (a retronym, but a very well used one) is a distinct version. I say distinct because, despite the similarities, there were significant differences (court divided into thirds, restricted movement specifically for women's play). The reason why I recommend specifying "women's basketball" here is that it played a distinct role in the development of netball. The link between Naismith's game and netball isn't disputed, and that's why his original game is (and will be) mentioned in the History section. However, none of the sources linking Naismith's game preclude the influence of another version of basketball. On the other hand, the AENA and Jobling & Barham specifically link women's basketball and the development of netball rules in England. Jobling & Barham mentions the influence of the Spalding basketball rules for women on the Ling Association's netball rules in 1899. This is the link between Berenson and netball: the Spalding rules were edited by Berenson with many rules from her game (and from Baer's, but to a lesser degree). Hence the need to mention her in this article, although to a much lesser degree. – Liveste (talk • edits) 23:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I understand your concerns. If we're trying to reach some form of consensus, after having read what you've said, I can understand your rationale better now.  So long as the in article discussion are limited in scope and not over stated, I don't oppose a rewrite in that section with what you've described. --LauraHale (talk) 23:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The sport may have been called basketball (for women), but it was clearly a different form of the game. "Women's basketball" as a name is retrospective, but this is what it's called by many sources, which is why we use it here. "American basketball" is a fringe term at best and should not be used – is there such a thing as "British basketball"? Confusion in the History section can be rectified by elaborating on the variations of basketball that existed in the 1890s, and that netball emerged as one of them; I would add the particular influence of women's basketball, with that name. Further points are presented below. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The version developed by Clara Gregory Baer in 1895 is another key example. What led you to believe that the men's and women's rules of basketball at the time were similar? – Liveste (talk • edits) 23:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The sources I've read never made the connection to Baer. The All England Netball Association text does not reference her.  It might be highly possible that what happened was that netball and American women's basketball are two unique games that developed rather independently of each other.  (See the lack of Baer references in all the texts I've cited in the history of netball prior to 1895.) American's women basketball eventually synced back with and became basketball at a later date.  Netball continued on its separate trajectory.  (Though there were attempts to merge it with korfball and korbball during the 1940s and 1950s.)  --LauraHale (talk) 03:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That's one of the reasons why Baer isn't mentioned here. I brought it up as another prominent example of women's basketball rules being different from those of the men's game. The IFNA and a few other sources mention her, although the link isn't clear. I think years ago I read an article saying that Miss Porter in 1897 introduced rules from Baer's game. Not sure though, which is why it isn't mentioned in the main Netball article. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * On a different note, I'm not suggesting that women's basketball is, or even was, a distinct sport. But the unique women's rules of the time were what shaped netball into the sport it is today, and so it deserves a mention here. References to "basketball" in the literature is more a reflection that the rules varied across the United States during the 1890s – or else writers need to be more specific with their wording. Netball itself started as just another variation of basketball, based on the rules used by women, but gradually developed into a separate sport. Regarding "unwanted confusion", women's basketball is not another name for netball: it used to be another name, but not any longer. Hope this helps. – Liveste (talk • edits) 23:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Just dumping inhere for more source support...

Netball traces its roots to basketball. Humberstone says on page 11: "Before we turn to the sport as we know it today, it is worth looking at its originas. It is an offshoot of basketball, the game founded by Dr James Naismith at Springfield College, Massachusetts.  Two Englishwomen watched a game at the YMCA in Springfield and immediately saw the possibilities for their own sec.  They returned home and developed a set of rules more suitable for the less robust female competitior who, in those days, was regarded as a rather frail and timid person." This source explicitly says that netball was derived from watching a men's game.


 * This one's tricky. The account described above is one of two theories on the origins of netball. The theory used in Wikipedia's article describes how basketball was introduced to England by Madame Österberg, and modified over several years. Most sources advocate this theory. Humberstone (p. 11) refers to a second theory, which has only been presented in a few sources, including Smith and Humberstone (1978), and later by Taylor (1991). It describes how "two Englishwomen" (who they were is anyone's guess) brought the game to England after seeing the game played in the United States. However they don't elaborate much on this, so it's difficult to provide a comprehensive history based on it (for all we know one of them could have been Madame Österberg). We could add a mention of it to the History of netball article, but I wouldn't mention it here, since the historical information on this article is apparently complicated enough. More importantly, the "two Englishwomen" theory is published in fewer sources and is less comprehensive than the account of Madame Österberg developing the game at her college. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Buchanan and Slottje talk about the early history of basketball. On page 3, they say "In the beginning, basketball was actually played within the confines of a steel cage. Furthermore the ball was never out of bounds.  Players would simply bounce off the sides of the cage." Later in that same paragraph they say: "In fact the game originally had a nine man format but in 1897 was set at five." The nine-a-side reference supports the idea that women and men played a similar game at the time with similar rules.


 * Not really. All it suggests is that the both nine-a-side and five-a-side versions of basketball existed. This is true of Berenson's rules for women's basketball as well: Melnick (p. 3) indicates that Berenson's game used nine players per team. It also describes some of Berenson's other rules – including the division of the court into thirds, and assigned "forward", "center" and "guard" roles for players who couldn't leave their assigned zone (David Porter, in Basketball: a biographical dictionary p. 1, also mentions that players could not "[hold] the ball for more than three seconds") – which have clear parallels to rules found in netball. Another point is that both women's basketball (including Berenson's and Baer's rules) and netball had rules designed to accommodate the particpation of women in sport. This is a vital part of the early development of netball, and should not be excluded from our article. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure how to resolve this. From my perspective, this seems like it goes beyond a short summary of the history of netball that is necessary for the article and may be more appropiate for the history of netball article, or an article comparing and contrasting the history of netball and American women's basketball.  (I'm calling it that to avoid confusion with women's basketball, as the sport was called in Australia and New Zealand until 1970.)  It may also be important on a general article on the history of women's sport.  Paralells in the development of both's sports history are interesting, but not necessarily relevant.  Beyond that, Berenson is not cited in netball sources and the article is fundamentally about netball, not basketball.  That's my rational for exclusion.  If we had netball sources citing Berenson's role in the development of early American women's basketball, I think there would be a place for this in this particular article. For me, this just adds confusion, especially since the two sports share the same name.  --LauraHale (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I wouldn't recommend going in-depth in discussing Berenson's rules here; that's more for the History of netball article. But the distinct rules mentioned here and their influence on netball mentioned elsewhere justify the references to women's basketball in this article IMO. I've added my proposed wording for the first two paragraphs of the History section to the bottom of this discussion. Tell me what you think. – Liveste (talk • edits) 23:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Colbeck also point to similarities between what would become netball in the early rules of basketball. On page 12: "It was once the practice for the game to be restarted at the centre after each goal; now the ball is put into play immediately by the defending team." On page 15, Colbeck says that "The game bust be played indoors or out, thus tackling must be forbidden, and to offset this, running with the ball must also be eliminated." Early basketball had no dribbling, a characteristic found in netball today. The original rules for the game are found on page 16. The rules do not exclude either gender from participating. This was different from netball, which at the onset did not permit men to compete.


 * There were similarities and differences between early basketball and netball rules. The early basketball rules do not specifically include women playing, in stark contrast to netball, which as you pointed out excluded men's participation from the start. I've previously mentioned similarities between early women's basketball and early netball rules. One point where men's and women's basketball rules diverged is with the issue of dribbling: while it became entrenched in the men's game by 1896, it was restricted in the Berenson's game and excluded altogether from Baer's version of women's basketball (Grundy and Shackelford, pp 26–28). – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

According to Hollander on page 5, "Naismith envisioned the new sport as a mass game, in which any number of players could participate." This suggests that Naismith did not envision the game as being played exclusively by males. The players were playing basketball. On page 6, it says : "Girls got involved in basketball almost at the game's beginning. In March, 1892, a match pitted a team of local Springfield girls against a squad of women teachers.  Naismith apparently liked what he saw at the game because he married one of the players, Maude Sherman.  Vassar and Smith, both women's colleges, added basketball to their activities in 1892." There is no suggestion that basketball at this time had become two separate sports in the United States. There is no suggestion that women played using modified rules. (In fact, it appears that there were collegiate basketball teams for women before there were collegiate basketball teams for men. On page 7, the first men's collegiate team was created in March 1893 at the University of Chicago.)  While on page 225, Hollander says: "Women have been playing basketball since 1892, a year after the game's invention.  But the game they played differed greatly from the men's.  Early rules called for nine women to a side, each confined to an area, with the ball passed from area to area before a shot." This passage does not indicate when separate rules were created for women. (This is important. We know that netball was being played in England in 1895. With out a date as to when separate rules were created, we do not know what game the women watched.  Netball sources do not indicate which gender that 1895 game drew inspiration from.  Smith and Humberstone indicate the game they may have adapted to create netball was a men's game.)  At the same time, while women are separated, there is no indication that basketball played by women was viewed by players as a separate and distinct game in the United States basketball community: The texts indicate the game shared the same name and were viewed as two versions of the same sport.







--LauraHale (talk) 00:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The quote on page 5 merely suggests that "any number of players" could play the game. No comment is made regarding gender, and none should be inferred from it. While the paragraph on page 6 of the book sheds no light on the women's rules for basketball, other sources that I've presented here illustrate them clearly. Regarding page 225, at least you're now aware that separate rules existed for men and women playing basketball. Your subsequent concern about what year the different rules were drafted is certainly valid – and easily answered. According to Melnick (pp 2–3), women's basketball was first played in 1892, and over a period of a few weeks from the day after its introduction the rules were modified. By 1893, the first official game was played at the college.


 * From the AENA information you gave me:
 * 1895: Visit of Dr. Toles, an American, to Madame Osterberg's P.T. College (then at Hampstead). Students were taught Basket Ball - indoors - no printed rules - no lines, circles or boundaries. The goals were two waste paper baskets hung up on walls at each end of the hall.
 * 1897: Game played out of doors on grass. An American lady paid a visit to the College (moved to Dartford), and taught the game as then played by women in America. The students at Dartford introduced rings instead of baskets, the larger ball and the division of the ground into three courts.
 * We don't know which gender version of the game was introduced in 1895, but we sure do know which version was brought over in 1897. Thus, while the influence of the male version of basketball has yet to be firmly established, the influence of women's basketball is clear-cut, particularly with the Spalding rules introduced in 1899 (see next response). References to women's basketball should therefore not be excluded from the article. I've addressed Smith and Humberstone's information with the explanation of the "two Englishwomen" theory, and I've already stated my view supporting two versions of the same sport. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

More supporting sources for the idea that netball was derived from the American sport of basketball, not from the American sport of women's basketball:

In 1996, Levinson and Christenson also fail to reference American women playing basketball under their own set of unique rules that differ from men as a the source of the game of netball in England. Their wording on page 683 says: "Netball was introduced from England in 1895 as the indoor game of basketball. The person responsible for this was an American educator called Dr. Toll, who was a visiting college of physical training in north London. Dr. Toll taught the female students how to play basketball, but she did not distribute a book of rules and the playing area was of an indeterminate size.  The goals were wastepaper baskets hung on the wall at each end of the hall.  This very much mirrored Dr. James Naismith (1861-1939), who invented basketball in 1891 and who used peach baskets as his original scoring targets." Levinson and Christenson trace the origins of netball to Naismith, not a later female America game that used its own unique rules. Later on page 683, the text says that in 1899, "a Ling Committee subcomittee drafted a set of rules that established a transatlantic compromise. Goals were to be replaced by points, and a shooting circle was introduced -- these elements were part of the American game.  However, the size of the ball (68 centimeters [27 inches] in circumference), was similar to the size of an English football and 4 inches less in circumference than the American "basketball.""  When they talk of a compromise between the two set of rules for the sport, the source refers to the American game as basketball, not women's basketball or not American women's basketball. This I believe supports my claim: The sport of netball traces its roots to basketball. If there was a unique women's American sport called women's basketball, it seems like it would be cited as the place where compromise was made.


 * Page 683 merely notes the similarities of the peach baskets of Dr Naismith's original game and the wastepaper baskets of Dr Toll's version. It does not make a direct link between Naismith's game and Dr Toll's game that specifically negates the influence of another version. As for the compromise you mention, it merely refers to "basketball". It doesn't specify which version was influential. The fact that these authors fail to mention "women's basketball" precludes neither its existence nor its influence on netball. Jobling and Barham (1991) is more specific: it mentions that in 1897 and 1899, rules from women's basketball were incorporated into the game. The following sentence (p. 30 of the article; p. 2 of the PDF) is critical: "The game was also played outdoors on grass and by 1899 the USA Spalding rules for women had been adopted." Out of interest, these Spalding rules were edited by Senda Berenson, codified in 1899 and published in 1901. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

In 2005, Levinson and Christenson again trace the roots of netball to Naismith's game on page 1066: "The goals were wastepaper baskets hung on the wall at each end of a hall -- an arrangement the mirrored that of Canadian born Dr. James Naismith (1861-1939), who invented basketball in Massachusetts in 1891 and used peach baskets as his goals." Both the 1996 and 2005 texts by Levinson and Christenson agree that the game invented in England and derived from American basketball was called "women's basketball" in England until they made the switch to netball in 1899, when metal rings with nets hung below them replaced baskets. (Page 1067 for 2005, Page 683 for the 1996.)


 * The comparison of the baskets I've dealt with above. The contemporary name of "women's basketball" in England does not make that name an exclusive synonym for netball. The term also retrospectively describes the early version of basketball played by women in the United States, and later worldwide. And considering that "women's basketball" and "netball" are both played in some countries, prescribing one name solely as a synonym for the other would lead to even greater confusion. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)



--LauraHale (talk) 04:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your prompt and well-reasoned response, Laura. I apologise for taking more than a day to reply, and I've attempted to address the many points you've raised. Overall, hopefully I've demonstrated to you that not only were there separate basketball rules for men and women, but that the women's version played a crucial role in the development of netball. From this, I reiterate my position that references to women's basketball, using that name, should be restored. Furthermore, now that I have a clearer understanding of the confusion regarding the History section, I propose adding a couple of sentences elaborating on the variations of basketball that existed in the 1890s, explaining that netball emerged as one of them to become a separate sport. The particular influence of women's basketball, with that name, clearly deserves a mention as well. Cheers again. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason why this discussion is being conducted outside the scope of the current review? Could we please develop a comprehensive and balanced history? Racepacket (talk) 04:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I decided to start the discussion here, rather than the GA1 page. Had I added the discussion there, by itself it would have greatly swelled the review page and drowned out other points. The inclusion or exclusion of references to women's basketball I believe is the only point of contention regarding the History section. Once it's resolved, a comprehensive summary can be either confirmed or finalised. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 12:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand. Please jump in and work on the problem.  Just because a GA review is underway does not make the nominator the exclusive editor of the article. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 20:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposed wording
Dealing with this seems kinda anti-climactic after the GAN, but some progress is better than endlessly stalled discussions. Below is my proposed wording for the first three paragraphs of the History section (the rest of it doesn't seem to be disputed). It reduces the emphasis on women's basketball that was included before the GAN, but still makes mention of it. Tell me what you think.

Netball emerged from early versions of basketball, and evolved with the increasing participation of women in sport. Basketball was invented in 1891 by James Naismith, a Canadian physical education instructor working in Springfield, Massachusetts. It was played in his school's gymnasium between two teams of nine players, using an association football that was shot into closed-end peach baskets. Naismith's new game spread quickly across the United States. Variations of the rules also emerged: in 1892, Senda Berenson developed modified rules for women, giving rise to women's basketball; intercollegiate rules were also played by men and women (Jobling and Barham, p. 30). But while the various basketball rules eventually converged in the United States, an entirely new sport emerged once basketball spread to England.

Martina Bergman-Österberg introduced one version of basketball in 1893 to her female students at the Physical Training College in Hampstead, London. The rules of the game were modified at the college over several years: the game moved outdoors and was played on grass; the baskets were replaced by rings that had nets; and in 1897 and 1899 rules from women's basketball in the United States were also incorporated. Madame Österberg's new sport acquired the name "net ball". The first codified rules of netball were published in 1901 by the Ling Association (later the Physical Education Association of the United Kingdom). From England, netball spread to other countries in the British Empire. Variations of the rules and even names for the sport arose in different areas: "women's (outdoor) basketball" arrived in Australia around the start of the 20th century and in New Zealand from 1906, while "netball" was being played in Jamaican schools by 1909.

From the start, netball was viewed as an appropriate sport for women to play, with restricted movement that appealed to contemporary notions on women's participation in sport, while remaining distinct from potentially rival male sports (Hargreaves, p. 124; McCrone, pp 148–9). Netball became a popular women's sport in countries where it was introduced, and spread rapidly through school systems ...

It's a glossed-over version but hopefully easy to understand. I've also added a sentence about how it was viewed as "appropriate" for women, for a bit of sociographic context (the listed sources can be found in the History of netball article). It still contains the term "women's basketball" though, which remains contentious at this stage. Comments welcome. – Liveste (talk • edits) 23:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)