Talk:New College, Oxford

roof beams
The Notre Dame fire reminded me of the story of trees for Oxford roof beams being planted 100s of years in advance. That turns out to be a myth. but might be worth mentioning anyway. New College is the location in question. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 08:24, 21 April 2019 (UTC) This is the kitsch version. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 08:36, 21 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I'll add it one of these days....
 * Some sources:
 * New College, "Trivia" page: http://www.new.ox.ac.uk/archives/trivia.html
 * Long Now Foundation, https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-partnership/
 * Stewart Brand, How Buildings Learn
 * --Macrakis (talk) 15:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

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Queries
Chiswick Chap, the citation to a college website mentions "a novelty at the time, undergraduates", but the source doesn't fully support the claim and isn't independent. Should the claim be removed? TSventon (talk) 19:07, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * First college in the university to admit undergraduate students
 * Many thanks for the concern. That it was a novelty does mean that it was a first. On independence, we are allowed to rely on the college for basic facts about itself, this is a correct use of primary sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap, the current wording is incorrect. I have checked the Encyclopaedia of Oxford article for New College and the Victoria County History (VCH) articles for Merton and Exeter and they show that undergraduates at colleges before the foundation of New College were rare but not non existent. That explains why the college website uses the word "novelty" rather the word "first".
 * The Encyclopaedia of Oxford article for New College says "Six colleges had already been founded in Oxford ... but most of these existed principally for graduates studying Theology ; undergraduates lived mainly in ACADEMIC HALLS"
 * The VCH says that Merton admitted founders kin from 1274 "Others of them, perhaps the majority, are boys, or youths, reading for the bachelor's degree. They are, in fact, undergraduates." According to the VCH, Exeter had thirteen scholars from 1316, including a chaplain and "The other twelve, who were to be at least sophists (i.e. undergraduates of two years' standing)" TSventon (talk) 12:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, it's been changed now anyway. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap, Robminchin said "It would be better if the claim to be the first in the university to admit undergraduate students were verified by an independent source, possibly one of the many histories of the university, rather than the college's own website."
 * Would the VCH be a better reference, it says "Most previous colleges had been designed to enable graduates to proceed to higher degrees. New College was primarily designed to take undergraduates through their arts course;" TSventon (talk) 16:12, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I suggest that this should be "about as large as" rather than "larger than". The existing source is to an old version of the college website, so it is not independent and the college may have decided the statement was incorrect and removed it. In Medieval Oxford Salter said "I estimate that in 1360 the six colleges which then existed would contain about 10 undergraduates, 23 bachelors and 40 masters." Alan B Cobban references this in 2017 "prior to the virtual doubling of the number of fellowships with the foundation of New College in 1379, the six secular colleges supplied a total of only about 63 graduate fellows." TSventon (talk) 16:12, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * larger than all of the (six) existing Oxford colleges combined
 * Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:53, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

"The New College sports ground south of the University Parks was established in the 1880s. The Weston buildings, which accommodate postgraduate students, were built next to the ground in 1999. " TSventon (talk) 09:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap, Robminchin, The Buildings and grounds section does not mention the sports ground. I suggest adding
 * Added. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:01, 24 April 2023 (UTC)