Talk:New Covenant Ministries International/Archive 1

Recently Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp removed an edit by me, that although no perfect was referenced and accurate as far as accusations are made. The fact that accusations and Criticism is made by individuals in the Blog Sphere is fact! He replaced the section with not Criticism but a answer to the Criticism. The article now answers something that has never been presented, which means that the article is unbalanced. Bottom line. The Criticism section does not serve to justify, or validate the Criticism presented in the Blog Sphere, but serves to make the reader aware that such Criticism exists. I believe the text that I have edited before better represents that and will be reverting back the text. Morcomm (talk) 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Anyone adverse to me cleaning up this article? It's very unbalanced with a lot of unfounded innuendo and rumor. Jazzyjeff (talk) 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Recently the following was added to this article:

This article, although including many facts, is severely biased. The article is leading and essay like with an obvious negative bias. It uses many observations without a single citation from a reliable source. The inclusion of many "weasel" words suggest that the original author had a bad experience with the organization. Generalizations are used heavily. Suggest a rewrite while sticking only to the facts concerning the organization. DragonsBeHere (talk) 06:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

'Concerns have recently arisen over this sects use of what has been described as "heavy shepharding" [sic] and other forms of influence. Though not officially followed by many of the high profile influence related websites, there is a growing body of evidence that suggests a number of the spinoff [sic] churches in both Africa and North America are engaged in manipulative practices.'

Respectfully, I would say this represents some quite serious allegations. A statement like this requires either some referencing to back it up or further explanation, rather than being left dangling at the end of the article. I suggest the person who made this entry does one of these two things, or the comment should be deleted.


 * I have removed that paragraph from the article. It can be put back in when/if there are some sources to back it up.--Commander Keane 15:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I would like to also state that this is a serious allegation and would also like the proof and "body of evidence" to be shown. Mark Nyman ( South Africa)

Concerns about Shepherding: I would have to agree with the assessment above to a large degree. I attended an NCMI Church for over 4 years and had the chance to sit under the ministry of a number of NCMI Apostolic/Prophetic team members. There were some exceptions, but there often tended to be an 'elitist spirit' that manifested itself in belittling other expressions of the Body of Christ, and encouraging members to essentially cut all previous ties they may have had with different churches and/or ministries. Basically, the message was "we are doing Church Biblically, and everyone else who deviates from our model and understanding are simply wrong/unBiblical". Most of the members of the Church I attended actually were converted to Christ in other Churches/movements and now the leadership was teaching them to dissociate with the very people who God used to bring them into His Kingdom. In the name of being "Apostolic", what they were doing was actually the antithesis of true Apostolic ministry. The Apostle Paul refused to build on another man's foundation, and therefore wouldn't 'sheep steal'. Most in our Church represented 'transfer growth' (coming from other Churches), not true Apostolic Church growth (conversions).

Whereas they would not "recognize" others (other Churches, other Christian leadership), they expected others to "recognize" them. As time went on, the Church I attended became more and more isolated from other Churches in the city. Members were strongly encouraged not to attend other Christian meetings in the city - like prayer meetings and home Bible studies that weren't officially 'under' the oversight of the local NCMI Elders. People were told that these groups weren't "properly covered" implying that it could be/would be dangerous to attend such meetings.

If it was limited to this one Church, I could write off my concern as an isolated case that wasn't representative of the larger group. However, I have seen the same tendencies in 3 other surrounding countries, most recently where a group from another NCMI Church was told they couldn't attend a Christian meeting in the home of some NCMI Church attenders because there would be guests there who the leadership "didn't know". Do they not trust their members to use their own discernment? Inviting some Christians to your house for fellowship and to share some testimonies about what God is doing doesn't need 'Eldership approval'. This begins to approach one of the serious problems that developed in the original Shepherding Movement in the 70's. The "sheep" weren't allowed to make their own decisions.

Probably the saddest thing is that their inability to receive from other streams/movements ultimately means they are missing out on much of what God is doing on the earth. If you think that "we are what God is doing", then you by definition aren't looking to other flows around the world to enhance what you have. Many in the Apostolic Movement are not at all like this, and are encouraged strongly to go out and receive from other Churches, other moves of God. The more involved I saw people get involved in the NMCI model (at least in the Church I attended), the less likely they were to attend conferences and/or receive from other Christians outside of their NCMI Network. At best, the Scriptures teach us that "we know IN PART". God designed the Church this way so that we would need others in the Body of Christ.

Prophet Rick Joyner in his book "The Apostolic Ministry" speaks about a false Apostolic Movement arising on the earth before the emergence of the true Apostolic is restored. What was interesting about what he wrote, is that the Lord showed them that this precursor Apostolic Movement would be more controlling than the Shepherding Movement of the 70's. Whereas I haven't seen the kinds of extreme things I heard about that happened in the Shepherding Movement of the 70's, I have definitely seen a controlling spirit in the NCMI Churches I am most familiar with, and I pray that wherever these tendencies are manifesting themselves in this movement, that they would heed the warning of this recognized Prophetic man to ensure they avoid being a part of the "false" and become part of the "true" Apostolic that will emerge in the coming days.

While a geniune concern may be raised here, it is obviously not something you could tag to every church that relates to New Covenant Ministries International. Partly, because under the model churches govern themselves autonomously, while being under the voluntary accountability of NCMI (which, is made up of leaders of churches all over the world. Not elite members of an organisation.)

In other words, this is hardly a denomination and each church will function seperately depending on its leaders. If one found a 'shepherding issue' with a particular church, it would only have been right or fair to have worked this issue out with the elders of that church. The way I see it - if they wouldn't listen - stay in relationship with them and work it out. The idea of NCMI is 'Friendship before Function.' Sooner or later your relationship with the elders as friends would ultimately win them over. That's the beauty of keeping relationships first. OR, you may find that you were also wrong in many instances. You've got to be as committed to them as you want them to be to you. Christ also lives in you. It's not like you're exempt from being a Christian to your leaders just because you aren't a leader. It's not as if you're exempt of being an example to them just because you aren't leading a church.

I've noticed that Westerners (American or otherwise) like to talk about their rights, to the point that no one could even 'shepherd' them even if they were 100% Biblical about it. Some people honestly do not like to be told AT ALL what they should do. Accountability 'sounds nice' to them, but when put into practise it can get a little more difficult.

I have been attending an NCMI relating church for 6 years - it is one of the first churches to relate - and have seen nothing but good fruit produced through an outstanding model. Admittedly, in the last 6 years there have been some 'rocky' situations but the leadership of both my church and NCMI have humbled themselves and sorted out issues - in friendship. In 6 years I've seen the leaders trash things that ultimately weren't of God, and continously try and keep the model evolving as the Bible becomes more clear as to how this thing should function. Every relationship will not be perfect, and needs to be worked on. Our relationship to our church, our elders, and apostolic leaders will go through the usual relationship issues - sometimes a little pride, sometimes a little humility, but always trusting in God for wisdom and love. For a "cord of three strands is not easily broken." This doesn't have to just apply to our marriages, but to all our relationships.

Lastly, Rick Joyner's book was great and his words serve more as a warning than a prophecy. We know that some prophecy are only just warnings (such as Jonah's prophecy.) I think most of those in Apostolic models have taken this warning to heart. There are other groups besides NCMI that are doing the same thing, and working with each other is also producing wonderful results (I am thinking of New Frontiers here especially.)

I attended an NCMI church for 2 years, the eldership seemed to be very controlling and manipulative as described in the book 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse', written by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen. They were a heavy shepherding church that interfered with the personal areas of members lives, beyond their position of authority. The focus was on submission and authority which led to belittling and public humiliation of those who asked questions. They discouraged members from attending other churches and also discouraged them from allowing christians to pray for them. Humility was not a characteristic of this church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.207.47.60 (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I was a congregant of a NCMI relating church. In my experience the church was shepherding with a clearly placed accountability system implemented through various mentors. These mentors had a lot of church ordained power to influence you life such as; who you married, where you invested you money, what jobs you accepted etc… There is a website that detailed some of the abuses: http://ncmifringe.wordpress.com/ I have been in contact with at least 20 people here in my home town that have had the same experiences as me with the church, and at lease another 20 from South Africa, UK, United States, Australia and Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morcomm (talk • contribs) 07:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I went to two different ncmi churches. They taught generational curses, soul ties, annointing your bedding with oil etc. Including getting carried away by laughing throughout the sermon. They were fans of Rodney howard brown as well as Todd Bentley. There is also a lot of crowd suggestion, manipulation, control within these churches. They give you much attention when you first join to make you feel loved and welcomed and if you question any teaching, you are regarded as having a critical spirit. There is a feeling that you need to conform to their vision. The focus on spiritual gifting instead of the bible and the fruits of the spirit is very evident. loud repetitive music is also a common characteristic.I was told that if you are a member of the church, you should not visit any other church's, life groups etc. I recal feeling very guilty attending a different church once, being too afraid to tell the pastor.Getting There (talk) 14:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)