Talk:New Hollywood

Discussion
"The studios were still being run by the moguls who had created them back when Hollywood was a baby."

This is not completly true. Warners was still run by Jack Warner until 1967. Daryl Zanuk had an on-again, off-again relationship with running Fox. Adolph Zuckor was still on Paramount's board of directors. However, Paramount's functions were run by others. Louis B. Mayer was dead. Also, he was removed as head of MGM in the early 1950s. He was the king of all the studio moguls. Harry Cohn at Columbia was also dead. Carl Lemme, the man who founded Universal, had died long ago. So, by the 1960s, there were actually very few moguls incharge of the studios.

I know Peter Biskind wrote a similar pharse to this in "Easy Riders, Raging Bulls." However, you must take that book with a grain of salt. He wrote this phrase to create the sort of "us vs. them" atmosphere that he likes in his books. The book is filled with inaccuracies that he came up with just for dramatic effect. Remember the part at the beginning where he states it was unusual for an actor to also produce a film (in reference with Warren Beatty on "Bonnie and Clyde"). He had forgotten what Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, Marlon Brando, John Wayne, John Garfield, and Ida Lupio had done. Also, at the end, when he makes it sound like this was the first time budgets had gone into the range of $30 and $40 million, he forgot to mention "Cleopatra." So, rather than just getting rid of this phrase, I would like to bring it to everyone's attention and hope to fix not only this but other aspects of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.17.128 (talk • contribs) 03:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Jaws & Star Wars were fine on their own, great even, the problem is that for 31 years now every freakin' studio has been following that pattern. Blame the bean counters not Spielberg & Lucas. Its also unfair to charge them with starting the 'block buster mentality' since the studios had previously gone a similar route with the Epics which started out as response to TV, and those two films had the same slow gradual role out release and stayed in cinemas for weeks & months of every other film of that time, very different to the ‘thousands at once and gone in a week’ releases of today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LamontCranston (talk • contribs) 12:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

EDIT:

The New Hollywood did not "come crashing down" with the arrival of Jaws. The term New Hollywood encapsulates the modernisation of the industry from this point - the Blockbuster form is infact cental to the New Hollywood. Is the writer infact referring to The Hollywood Renaissance, a period between the late 60s and early 70s of smaller, character based films centred around autership - seems like it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.220.41 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Definition of New Hollywood
What this article seriously misses is defining New Hollywood. It's not about time period but about attitude, although the times certainly influenced this greatly. New Hollywood films such as Bonnie and Clyde, The Graduate, Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces, M*A*S*H, Little Big Man, The Godfather, Nashville, Network, and Apocalypse Now were about overturning perceptions and myths that America had about itself. Sexual, political, and social issues were discussed and portrayed on-screen with a candor that had been building during the 1950s but now arrived in full bloom. Certainly, there had been social critique in Hollywood before, especially during the pre-Code days prior to 1934, and during the Depression as seen in films by Frank Capra and others, but never with the bravado or blatancy as seen in the period from the late 1960s through the 1970s. There continued to be blockbusters during the New Hollywood era, some of them New Hollywood films (Godfather and Godfather II especially) but business as usual continued in much of the town: witness the rise of the 1970s all-star cast disaster film starting with Airport, through The Poseidon Adventure and ending for the most part with The Towering Inferno. Jaws and Star Wars can never be considered part of the New Hollywood movement as they were good, old-fashioned spectaculars aimed at pure entertainment, no matter how masterfully crafted. The end of New Hollywood was not brought about by the blockbuster, but by the rise of movement conservatism and the backlash against the very myth-smashing and questioning that New Hollywood, as an outgrowth of changing attitudes arising in the 1960s, embodied. Americans tired of going to movies that were about reality, especially the negative parts of American reality, wanting instead what moviegoers had wanted from the beginning - to momentarily escape reality. This wish to escape reality had repercussions across the board, from the insipidity of most mainstream 1980s Hollywood films, which has continued in great part through today, to electing Ronald Reagan partially on a platform of embracing the mythology of America once again. Until the article reflects these socio-political realities, it cannot present an accurate account of New Hollywood.PJtP (talk) 03:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Prison?
Uh, this is pretty seriously POV:
 * This was when the Movie Brat generation broke in and Hollywood became an asylum that was truly run by the inmates.

--Saforrest 09:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Peckinpah
Peckinpah wasn't a member of the New Hollywood generation, neither by age nor by career trajectory. --TallulahBelle 01:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Robert Altman and Arthur Penn were also older than the other figures listed, and were close in age to Peckinpah. Arguably, Altman's films did reflect the "New Hollywood" sensibility more than Peckinpah's, as did some of Penn's ; but Penn's career trajectory was more similar to Peckinpah's then the other figures on the list. Penn, after all, did make a film for a major studio and with major stars in the late 1950s, The Left Handed Gun.

Don't know why John Huston is listed here either, other than that he managed to stay relevant in the later part of his career.

Studio control
Contrary to what the article says, some of the figures listed DID make films outside of the studio system as well as within it, such as Scorsese, De Palma, Polanski, Schlesinger,and Altman. If one does not count American International Pictures and Avco Embassy Pictures as "major studios", then Allen, Bogdanovich, and Brooks could have been considered to have worked outside of the studio system as well as within it. Prairie Dog, 12:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The article seems to make ambiguous, disputable and unreferenced claims such as "None of them ever independently financed or independently released a film of theirs, or ever worked on an independently financed production during the height of the generation's influence" and then lists examples of exceptions to that rule, whilst seemingly omitting various other examples (Apocalypse Now for example) that would further weaken the original assertion, resulting in a confused and convoluted argument. - 85.210.44.98 08:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Lumet
Unquestionably a great director, Sidney Lumet cannot be categorized as a member of the "New Hollywood" generation. Aside from age and career trajectory, the kinds of films he had been making for most of his career were clearly Classic Hollywood. Furthermore, he himself distanced himself from the generation.

The confusion lies in the fact that, though Lumet was not a New Hollywood director, he did make two unquestionably "New Hollywood" classics, Network and Dog Day Afternoon. --TallulahBelle 22:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Dog Day Afternoon was definitely New Hollywood, and SO WAS Serpico (1973)!!!! AppleJuggler 03:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Cassavetes & Van Peebles
There's been discussion about this before—neither Cassavetes nor Van Peebles properly are New Hollywood. For one, their ages, nearly a decade older than the norm. For another, their origin: they migrated from theater to film, whereas New Hollywood came straight to Hollywood via film school. Finally, they themselves did not consider themselves a part of the Hollywood environment; Cassavetes consciously considered himself a New York filmmaker. New Hollywood filmmakers, on the other hand—even Scorcese—instinctively knew they were Hollywood people.

Furthermore, no one serious debates that Cassavetes and Van Peebles were not New Hollywood—neither the two filmmakers, nor scholars, nor other New Hollywood types. --TallulahBelle 23:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Logan's Run
Okay, perhaps this is just a personal favorite, but I see it as somehow defining of the period's science fiction identity (between 2001 and Star Wars)- so I wonder if MGM's Academy Award-winning Logan's Run would be considered New Hollywood? - Eric 22:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see why it should be

How about Rocky I (1976)?
Could this be considered a New Hollywood film? AppleJuggler 03:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Jaws and Star Wars
Someone rather perversely removed Jaws and Star Wars from the list of notable New Hollywood pictures—ironic, since they defined the period. --TallulahBelle 00:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Star Wars clearly is not... It's pathetic and demonstrates the biased views and unprofessionalism of some Wikipedia's editors. This line "Author A.D. Jameson (I Find Your Lack of Faith Disturbing) claimed that Star Wars was New Hollywood's finest achievement that actually embodied the characteristics of the respected 'serious, sophisticated adult films'" is ridiculous because it's a merely opinionated POV of an author whose book is no serious academic or scientific work by any standards. In fact, one could say that Star Wars inaugurates the (long) 80s -- which had it's good moments but Star Wars was clear not one of them. The line “George, you can type this shit, but you sure can’t say it” by Harrison Ford clearly defines a movie that's neither serious nor sophisticated (and not even adult).
 * Jaws is another league -- a really serious movie one could call authorial despite its blockbuster appeal --, but I'm also not sure if it could be labeled as New Hollywood since it lacks characteristics listed in the eponymous section. And this last observation is important because the page should have coherence: if in one point it lists a set of characteristics and, in another, classify a movie that's the opposite -- Star Wars --, it becomes really schizophrenic... Dellamotta (talk) 13:01, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Jaws & Star Wars do not REALLY belong to the New Hollywood era. As you have perhaps observed in the paragraph called The close of the New Hollywood era those two film in fact initiated another different "era" in movie history and movie making, the "blockbuster era". Moreover, it simply is not true that they "defined the [New Hollywood] period". That's WRONG! Sure, they were both released in the 70's, which represented the climax of the New Hollywood era, but this cannot be the only argument. So, I do not agree that the removal of those two films was a "perverse" act, but a legitimate one! 83.189.18.112 14:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Once again, the issue of Jaws and Star Wars:


 * The point of the article is pretty clear—New Hollywood begat the Hollywood blockbuster mentality. Peter Biskind and everyone else who has written about the generation all agree that Jaws and Star Wars are firmly in the New Hollywood opus. To remove them is to miss the entire point of the generation: They created the blockbuster mentality. To expurge them because they retrospectively seem corporate is to fail to understand that, at the time of their release, these two films were considered as idiosyncratic and odd as Five Easy Pieces or M*A*S*H. George Lucas in particular has expressed how negatively the studio reacted to Star Wars, right up to its release. It's only retrospectively that these pictures are seen as corporate. --TallulahBelle 23:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Pruning list of films
The list of films of the new Hollywood era was becoming bloated, rendering the list meaningless. I'm pruning it down to a manageable number.

Remember, simply because a picture was released during the period doesn't mean it was New Hollywood. --TallulahBelle 13:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Right, so why do you still want to include "Star Wars" and "Jaws"? Please DISCUSS first!!!!!!!! 83.181.77.26 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * See above. And I for one would prefer to discuss this issue with a registered user, not an anonymous number. --TallulahBelle 23:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Notable Actors?
Joe Pesci was in only one film of the New Hollywood era and that was 1980's Raging Bull (which is at the very end of the new hollywood era by the way.) He was in one other film prior to this and it was of little to no importance. 1 film at the very end of the era as a supporting character does not seem notable to me.

"produced and marketed, but also the kinds of films that were made" Do you mean produced in the context of films "made" or in the context of films "directed"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.146.1.123 (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I Agree Also Is it really appropriate to include guys like James Coburn, Paul Newman, Jack Lemmon, and to a lesser extent Steve McQueen?

I know Newman starred in several important seventies classics like Butch Cassidy, The Sting, and Cool Hand Luke...but Marlon Brando also was prominently featured in The Godfather and Apocalypse Now, and no one in their right mind would consider him anything other than a Classic Hollywood star. Can't an Actor go around reinventing himself without being immediately being labelled as part of a particular generation? I can the say the same for Steve McQueen as well, but I think it's less obvious with him, being as that Newman cut his teeth starring in popular films in the 50's like Cat On A Tin Roof and The Silver Chalice with the likes of 50's stars Elizabeth Taylor. Lemmon is also a Classic movie star along the same lines as Newman, even though both weren't nominated in AFI's list (their film debuts were not before 1950).

Also, on to the main point: James Coburn. I know he starred in several Peckinpah movies (a guy whose inclusion into this discussion is also quite questionable) but other than that did not possess the same neurosis which governed the likes of Pacino, De Niro, and Hoffman. His age and acting credits fits squarely with the same generation that came about as The TV became a popular tool (late 50's and early 60's) - namely alongside guys like Lee Marvin, Charles Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Steve McQueen, George Peppard and James Garner. I guess the best way to describe these guys is - not old enough to be Classical but not Young enough to be 'New Hollywood'. Coburn cut his teeth playing supporting/character roles alongside the likes of Cary Grant, Audrey Hepburn, Anthony Quinn, and even when he became a potential leading man, his draw was already wading by 73 - in that time the 'new guys' like Pacino, Hoffman, De Niro, and Nicholson have tooken over.

By the way a bunch of Director's also don't belong there. Peckinpah, Altman, and Lumet (and maybe Kubrick) belong in that same 'TV period' as actors like Coburn, Marvin, and Eastwood. They are in the same generation as John Frankenheimer and Robert Aldrich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolascoburn (talk • contribs) 16:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Kubrick
I wouldn't count Kubrick in. He is another generation of moviemakers. Accordingly 2001 I would not consider 2001 as a "New Hollywood"-piece. Not every revolutionary move of that period is new Hollywood, neither is every genious director, which made a movie in this time. Is there any reason to consider Stanley Kubrick or 2001 "New Hollywood"?
 * In addition, he shot all his films after Spartacus in the UK. --5.165.89.142 (talk) 14:56, 20 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Even though Kubrick directed his New Hollywood-era films in the UK, he still made them within the Hollywood studio system (2001 was made through a British MGM, while his films after that were only nominally independent because they were bankrolled by Warner). If anything Kubrick helped to pioneer auteur-cinema of that period (i.e. studio films that encapsulated the sensibilities of independent film). While I can see an argument for excluding Kubrick on the basis his films were not technically exponents of American cinema, I think it is certainly reasonable to regard his films within the wider "New Hollywood" movement, which many reliable sources do. Remember guys, we are not setting our own criteria here. Betty Logan (talk) 00:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

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Assault on Precinct 13
An IP keeps adding Assault on Precinct 13 (1976 film) to the list of New Hollywood films. I have text searched a couple of books used as sources: The New Hollywood: From Bonnie and Clyde to Star Wars by Peter Kramer, and Geoff King's New Hollywood Cinema: An Introduction and it isn't mentioned. These books are not conclusive, but I have never heard of this film discussed as an exponent of "New Hollywood". In most cases "New Hollywood" films are studio films, but AOP13 is an indie production. I am aware there some exceptions to this, however I am going to remove it, and I would appreciate it if this time it is not restored to the list without a source. There are too many instances of a film just being added to the list because it was made in the late 60s and 70s without being established it was part of the New Hollywood movement. Betty Logan (talk) 21:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This is pathetic
The list of movies has grown to include, well, what appears to be everyone's favourite movie from the 1970s. You people don't know what you're talking about. 'Airplane!' should not be on here. This article is hopeless. Zweifel (talk) 10:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree, and I have tried removing quite a few of these but they keep getting added back. The problem is it is so subjective; personally I would not consider Airplane an exponent of New Hollywood but since it is cited it would be "original research" to remove it, unless we have a source that contends the claim. The same with something like Halloween: it was an independent film, and "New Hollywood" was a studio movement in which the studios adopted an "auteur" approach to making their films, so Halloween would seem by definition not a New Hollywood film, but again it is on the list with a citation. The problem is more intrinsic to Wikipedia than the editors: we cannot use our judgment, so if poorly researched books proclaim a film to be part of "New Hollywood" I don't see a way around it. These are subjective claims, and Wikipedia isn't really well placed in dealing with subjectivity. Betty Logan (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

way too overrated
New Hollywood's success is due to the invention of the rating system, making way for violence, nudity and profanity in the cinema. After the novelty had worn out the new wave declined, similar to Blaxploitation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.69.40 (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Collapsed text, talk section not a general forum. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 06:27, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Add directors
I propose that we add in the names of directors in the list of notable films. This would help the reader to connect films with directors. This is particularly pertinent for New Hollywood, because the directors took on a more major role in the filmmaking process. I would like to canvass the WP editors for a yea or a nay on this proposal. I know one editor disagrees, but I would like to get more input. Thanks. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 15:36, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I am still waiting for editors' views about adding in the names of directors to the list of movies. In a few days, I will make the assumption that no one opposes this plan.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said in my reply I don't oppose the principle just the way you did it. It looked cluttered and and incoherent especially on smaller screens. I thought my alternative suggestion was a reasonable compromise. Betty Logan (talk) 23:55, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * What is the alternative suggestion?OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 21:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
 * My suggestion was to create a sortable table and tabulate the information into separate columns (film, year, director, source). It looks better aesthetically, is easier to read and has more functionality. A simple table format can be found at List of vegans. Betty Logan (talk) 22:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

possibly contains original research?
This article's headline "possibly contains original research" is an understatement. Stevenmitchell (talk) 05:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Addition of unsourced films
I would like to remind editors that the film section is not a "free for all". Not every film made in the 70s is regarded as being a key film in the New Hollywood movement. It is largely subjective since beyond a few key features there is no definitive list, so each new addition should have an inline citation that explicitly credits the film as a "New Hollywood film", or credits it to a source that is about New Hollywood and discusses the significance of the film within that era. Ideally NO film on this list should be unsourced, although inevitably some are; however, most of the films that are unsourced are key films of the era that few people would dispute so we can let those slide temporarily, but not indefinitely. However, NO MORE films should be added without an appropriate source, especially if they are genre, independent or foreign films i.e. types of film of the era which commonly fall outside of the New Hollywood sphere. Betty Logan (talk) 15:18, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly has been added to the list several times now by. There are several important reasons why I dispute its inclusion: The New Hollywood movement was principally a movement centering on the Hollywood studio system in which it appropriated independent sensibilities. As I point out in the section above, all films included on the list really should be sourced, but films which fall outside of this sphere such as is the case with The Good, the Bad and the Ugly should definitely not be added to the list without an accompanying source. Neither The New Hollywood (by Peter Krämer) nor New Hollywood Cinema (by Geoff King) which are both used as sources for this article list The Good, the Bad and the Ugly as an example of New Hollywood. Betty Logan (talk) 18:40, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) It is an Italian film
 * 2) It is not backed by major American studio
 * 3) It is a genre film

Period or movement?
The first sentence states: "New Hollywood, sometimes referred to as the "American New Wave", refers to a period in American film history from the mid-to-late 1960s" and one of the sentences in the introduction states: ""New Hollywood" usually refers to a period of film-making rather than a style of film-making, though it can be referred to as a movement."

The article seems to be based on the opinion that "New Hollywood" is a movement, excludng all exploatation and commercial titles from the period, as well as those having more in common with classical Hollywood. In my opinion, there should be clear distinction of "New Hollywood" as a period and "New Hollywood" as a movement, and the article doesn't seem to be clear on that one.StjepanHR (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * It is both, and I don't think there is a clear distinction. It was a movement defined by new filmmaking sensibilities—some of them artistic, some commercial—that defined a particular period. As a period it brought an end to the classic Hollywood era, and as a movement it saw a new aesthetic become central to studio film production. From the list of films included it is evident that commercial films were not excluded: The Godfather, Jaws, Star Wars and ET are all represented and all became the highest-grossing film of all-time. I don't think exploitation films are specifically excluded but let's not forget that "New Hollywood" was principally a change in studio film-making, and exploitation films were mostly peripheral to that. Some of them took advantage of relaxed censorship, which resulted in their own movements such as Golden Age of Porn. Betty Logan (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of the things you wrote, but, for example, the directors section is missing most of my favourite directors working in the period, such as Burt Kennedy, Don Siegel (who is listed in the info box, but not in the main article), Dick Richards, Andrew McLaglen, John Sturges, Mark Rydell, and countless others. Some of them started in the late classical period or the transitional period of the early/mid-1960's, but all of them had careers in the New Hollywood period and are a significant part of it, despite not being part of the New Hollywood movement in the more narrow sense of the phrase. One thing I can't agree is when you say that "there is no clear distinction" and that ""New Hollywood" was principally a change in studio film-making, and exploitation films were mostly peripheral to that". The second sentence would be correct if the article is about the movement in the narrow meaning. However, the exploatation cinema was a huge part of the PERIOD in question and can't be excluded. What I would like to propose is to make separate lists for directors (and producers) associated with the movement in the narrow sense and those working in the period, but not being part of the movement. StjepanHR (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to make things clear, I don't propose adding every name who had something to do with the period of cinema in question, but some names simply need to be listed, such as all I have mentioned above.StjepanHR (talk) 12:14, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I would actually go the other way and cut the number of directors down. I don't see the point of listing them all in the infobox when there is a more complete list in the article itself and I would limit the list of directors to those who have a directed a couple of films on the list. Betty Logan (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks better :) I wasn't proposing expanding the infobox (it was ridiculous as it was), just saying that some where listed there and not in the main article, what was also a bit weird, but it is solved now. The only thing I would still do is to list few other directors working in the period, but which were not a part of the movement, since many of them were very significant, such as those I have listed above (Burt Kennedy, Dick Richards, Andrew McLaglen, John Sturges, Mark Rydell) and few others. I just don't know how to make a distinction between them and those who followed New Hollywood "rules" more closely. StjepanHR (talk) 07:20, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is much value in simply listing people who worked during the period; that is pretty much everyone who worked during the 1970s so the article would just become a WP:COATRACK. However it is defined—and I concede there are multiple definitions out there—"New Hollywood" basically comprises a body of work which is usually associated with the concept i.e. films that are repeatedly brought up as examples of "New Hollywood". For example, films like The French Connection and The Exorcist are nearly always listed so that makes William Friedkin a prominent figure of New Hollywood, but because James Bond films are generally ommitted then I would not include Lewis Gilbert and Guy Hamilton—who directed three films apiece during the period. I question whether somebody like Sigourney Weaver should even be listed: she basically had a supporting role in Annie Hall and was part of the Alien ensemble, but I would hardly call her a prominent figure. I would prefer to see a more rigorous and objective inclusion criteria introduced, because many of the inclusions seem arbitrary to me. Betty Logan (talk) 07:56, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, for those two you have mentioned, Hamilton is British director who worked in Britain during 1970's, not in Hollywood. Gilbert also had only a brief (and, IMHO, not very significant) career in the US during the period. Again, we have issue of omitting a huge part of the US cinema of the period. For example, the article about the classical Hollywood (although in need of expansion) does a reasonable job of covering broad spectrum of films and artists, regardless of them following closely the "rules" usually associated with the Golden Age. As this is an encyclopaedia, where should one look if he wants to find more about 1970s US directors working in a style more similar to classical Hollywood than to the one of New Hollywood (which itself is a mix of classical Hollywood with (western) European cinema, or even a pure classical Hollywood with 1970s political opinions involed, as well as a relaxed "censorship")? To repeat once more, I am not proposing adding Kennedy, McLaglen and the rest into the current list, but I can't see how would one sub-chapter and one separate list of 20-30 names hurt the article. Another thing is that neither this nor classical Hollywood article cover a "gray area" of 1960s, which included (d)evolution (based on personal opinion) of classical Hollywood into post-classical Hollywood. I know that is slightly off-topic, but as you seem to be a sensible editor, I would like to hear your opinion how to cover that period? StjepanHR (talk) 08:58, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I think Wikipedia policy answers your question already: there are plenty of books that cover "New Hollywood" and any films or names added to the article should really be WP:Verifiable i.e. it should not be down to editorial whim who or what gets added. As you can see, the film section has started to move in that direction and new film additions are now prohibited unless they are sourced, and the "Important figures" section should ideally follow suit. Betty Logan (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

And it is again "period vs. movement" thing. If the so-called "New Hollywood" was described only as a movement, I wouldn't write any of these objections. However, even some of the sources claim (King (2002), for example) that there is no clear definition of the term and that several positions exist and some (Schatz (1993)) even disagree with the years this article includes for the period. Considering Wikipedia articles, for example: Czechoslovak New Wave is described as a "movement" (and I surely wouldn't propose adding films by the likes of the great Otakar Vávra to the list, since he obviously wasn't a part of the movement), French New Wave is described as a "blanket term coined by critics for a group of French filmmakers of the late 1950s and 1960s" (as the "group" is clearly defined, nobody would add somebody like Henri-Georges Clouzot or even Jean Renoir or Robert Bresson, who are from the previous generation, despite being active in the late 1950s and 1960s), "Iranian New Wave refers to a new movement...", "British New Wave is the name given to a trend in filmmaking among directors in Britain in the late 1950s through the late 1960s", "Cinema Novo is a genre and movement of film...", "Hong Kong New Wave was a movement...", "Parallel Cinema is a film movement in Indian cinema...", "Japanese New Wave is a blanket term used to describe a group of loosely connected Japanese filmmakers during the late 1950s and into the 1970s", etc. Only the "New German Cinema" (itself refering only to West German cinema) has the same problem as "New Hollywood" as it refers to a "period", while it was clearly a "movement", and the directors belonging to it were only a minor part of the larger German cinema of the time, even if we only look at the West German cinema.StjepanHR (talk) 12:07, 21 February 2017 (UTC) Just as a note, one source not listed here is "The Last Great American Picture Show: New Hollywood Cinema in the 1970s", which describes many films not listed here as a part of the New Hollywood, and also refers to the New Hollywood as a complex movement consisting of several smaller movements.StjepanHR (talk) 12:22, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

"This new generation of Hollywood filmmaker was predominantly film school-educated"
I don't know what is the origin of this claim, but huge majority of the directors listed never attended (and even less of them finished) any kind of film school. I would just like to leave this open for discussion before deleting it.StjepanHR (talk) 11:12, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

"de-emphasis on the traditional view of casting physically attractive actors in lead roles..."
My last edit was a removal of the following statement: "According to Peter Biskind's book Easy Riders, Raging Bulls, one aspect of New Hollywood was a de-emphasis on the traditional view of casting physically attractive actors in lead roles; the movement's occasional emphasis on recreating a reality which audiences could relate to resulted in actors with "everyman" looks, such as Dustin Hoffman and Gene Hackman, getting cast in lead roles that would have been unavailable to their physical type under the studio system." The source listed ("Easy Riders, Raging Bulls", page 16) doesn't even state that, but something different. On the other hand, I don't see the point of listing it since "attractiveness" is very subjective term and even if we go with what majority would consider attractive, I don't see that most of the Classical Hollywood actors would be considered conventionally attractive (although I am a straight male and not the best judge, I admit). Just take a look at some of the Academy Award for Best Actor winners of the Golden Age (just the first dozen years): Emil Jannings, George Arliss, Wallace Beery, Charles Laughton, Victor McLaglen, Paul Muni, Spencer Tracy, James Stewart, etc. I think it is not fair to assume that any of them was popular because of his attractive look and not because of acting (or physical presence in case of McLaglen). On the other hand, while 70's Hollywood had its share of unattractive actors, it also had Redford, Beatty, Reeve, Reynolds, H. Ford, etc. I don't doubt their acting talent, but much of their popularity among female audience was based on their looks. StjepanHR (talk) 09:45, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

List of important figures of the movement - dual roles
I don't see the point of listing a person under only one category in this section. For example, Allen and Eastwood fit perfectly in both "actors" and "directors" sections and there is no reason for them not to be listed under the both. StjepanHR (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

This is still pathetic
Now people have gone and added "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "The Empire Strikes Back", etc., onto this list. These are not "New Hollywood" movies. These are "Blockbuster" movies. They are the antithesis of New Hollywood -- big concept, highly marketed and advertised movies that make all their money on their opening weekend. These are the movies that killed New Hollywood. Go watch the documentary, "The Monster That Ate Hollywood". Enough already. Zweifel (talk) 06:14, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * They still were made at that time. Sounds like you got a personal grudge against these movies (yet The Godfather was a blockbuster as was Jaws & Star Wars). Espngeek (talk) 14:59, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Films that failed verification
I have just undertaken a verification check on the list of films. I am not prejudiced either way about the films. I have listed them here so a record of what was removed can be easily identified, and if sources can be found for them then by all means add them back in. I will attempting to locate sources my self over the next few days. Betty Logan (talk) 21:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Wizards (1977)
 * The Duellists (1977)
 * The Hills Have Eyes (1977)
 * Slap Shot (1977)
 * Martin (1978)
 * 1941 (1979)
 * The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
 * Popeye (1980)
 * The Thing (1982)
 * Making Love (1982)
 * Rumble Fish (1983)
 * What is your criteria? Espngeek (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The criteria is explicit verification i.e. the film is explicitly mentioned as an exponent of NH, the film appears on a list of NH films, or the film appears in an article/book that is explicitly on the subject of NH. Betty Logan (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Many of these films are tagged as "New Hollywood" on Flickchart, so I am going to work my way through that first and see what is left at the end of that process. Betty Logan (talk) 22:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

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 * Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty in 'Bonnie and Clyde', 1967.jpg

Patton source
I have recently added "better source needed" tag for Patton (1970). The film stands somewhere between Old and New Hollywood in style and the source listed mentions it only two times, once as a film that Rod Steiger regreted turning down and once as a financially successful 20th Century Fox film. In both pages, it is not listed as a New Hollwood picture. It is not even listed in the Index at the end of the book. StjepanHR (talk) 05:29, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You are right to call it out, and I certainly don't regard your intervention as "tiring". In a subjective list such as this one sourcing should be explicit, either by name-checking it as an exponent of the era or through contextual discussion of its significance within the movement. Flickchart has a comprehensive list of NH movies and Patton isn't showing up here either: https://www.flickchart.com/Charts.aspx?genre=New+Hollywood&year=1970. Betty Logan (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Should I put an image in the lead section?
I feel like putting the poster for Bonnie and Clyde (1967) in the lead section because I feel like it would educate readers and let them see what the movement looked like, especially considering there's no image in this article. But I want you to decide, should I do it or not? CaptainRex2008 (talk) 15:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Edit: Nvm, somebody already did it for me. Thanks! CaptainRex2008 (talk) 16:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I did it :) Espngeek (talk) 16:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Godfather, taxi driver and others
If these two movies and others appearing in the full list are indeed part of new hollywood they should appear in last paragraph of the introduction given that they are more relevant. 2800:40:41:558:F1A6:4FA9:6C4E:957F (talk) 05:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)