Talk:New York, Susquehanna and Western Railway/Archive 1

Working on a massive rewrite. Will post soon. Kether83 10:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Finished sooner than I thought - the late 90s and recent history is not very well documented, please add info where appropriate Kether83 11:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources Past 1980
What are your sources past 1980? The book you cite was last published in the early 1980's and covers only up until 1980.

Where did you get your information for everything from 1986 on?

The 1986 intermodal info was from another book which I have just added, but have yet to cite the publisher and ISBN for (the book's at home and I'm at work.) The "Recent and Current operations" and "Interchanges with other railroads" sections are written mostly from my own experiences, other NYSW railfans, and employees of the railroad. Kether83 11:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

System Map
I added a map obtained from the NYSW.com website. I assume fair use since it's only being used to clarify an article about the railroad itself? Kether83 12:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

After the copyedit
This still has some significant tone problems.

There's also a remark about avoiding incorporation into Conrail in the first graf that isn't explained in the later sections.

Finally, the article on Delaware Otsego System really needs to be created. Mangoe 17:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review implementations

 * Finally started on implementing these as needed. The WP:MOS suggestions were definately good and all language such as "recently" and synonyms were edited.  Also, a picture was found on the ALCO C636 page which was a great example of the road's modern-day use of antiquated power.  This was added to the modern day section.  A few layout edits were made and the SD45 pic was put back at the top to balance the article and fill the negative space to the right of the TOC.
 * Changed the interchanges section to only list the class 1 interchanges. There are more with roads in NY state on the northern division and these need listing as well once the list is assembled.  also the concept of the road divided into northern/southern divisions needs to be written in.
 * Changed headings as per WP:MOS#Headings
 * added to the references section for future footnotes
 * The 21st C. railroad section is horrible and needs to be rewritten.. I'll work on that in the coming days.

Kether83 11:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

current operations
Rewrote the 1st paragraph of the section dealing with the current ops. I will obtain dates and customer names for this section later but had to replace erroneous information and add more. Kether83 11:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

latest work done
The intro seemed lacking, so I added some info about where exactly the commuter service went, and the fact that the passenger service mentioned since the creation of the article was pretty much all commuter service is something that might be put in later on. I also shoved the geographical paragraph into its own new section called "Route," as it didn't really fit into the introduction. Kether83 11:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

To Do list
A good idea. The article has really needed some historical photographs since day 1, and I've emailed the NYSW T&HS asking them for some (and rights) for use on the article. In the meantime, I've begun hunting down images online and adding them to the links section, so that owners of those sites might be able to be contacted for use of their photos. Also, I've moved some links to the references section as information from those sites was used in the article. I'll go through and cite with &lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt; later on. Kether83 07:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Way cool. I've got a couple dead tree edition refs here, but no time to go through them this week.  I'll try to find enough time to add them to a "Further reading" section or note them here. Slambo (Speak)  11:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I will try to make a list of former presidents/executives this week, I have a book on the history of the NYS&W that lists most of them. 3D Jonny (Speak) 11:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What book is that? Kether83 18:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The New York Susuquehanna & Western Railroad by Robert E. Mohowski. I highly recommend this book. It covers the history of the road in extreme detail from the begining in the 1800's through the Maidmen era. 3D jonny

PLEASE READ THIS
Recent contributions have been full of information but please remember that this is an article for more than just railfans. Please write out road names (e.g. New York Central instead of just NYC). The huge amount of acronyms and abbreviations in the railroading industry can be confusing for someone "uninitiated" reading this article. Also, please try to give the fullest location possible. The map and language of the article suggest that this is in the northeast US, but there are many places in the world with the same names. (e.g. Syracuse, New York vs. Other Syracuses) This said, I'm really glad to see people contributing what they can. This has become a really solid article and with your help, I hope to keep it as such. Thanks, Kether83 09:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I am amazed on how well this article is turning out. For me its like writing a term paper again, but one I actually enjoy writing! Kether83, you deserve alot of credit for jumpstarting this article. When this becomes a FA class article (and it will) I hope you are recognized for your hard work on this article! 3D jonny

Usable historical photos found
I've found many photos on http://www.maywoodstation.com/ (Historical photos 1, 2 and 3) which they state on the website are as follows:"Fair use of copyrighted material is limited and includes only the use of protected materials for noncommercial educational purposes, such as teaching, scholarship, research, criticism, commentary, and news reporting. Users who wish to download or print text and image files from this website for such above uses are welcome to do so without the Maywood Station Historical Committee's express permission. Users must credit both the author and the source of this material as they would material from any printed work; the credit must include the URL 'http://www.maywoodstation.com' By downloading, printing, or otherwise using text and image files from this website, users agree that they will limit their use of such files to fair use, and will not violate the copyright laws of the Maywood Station Historical Committee or any other party's proprietary rights." It looks like I've found the jackpot we've been looking for :o) I'll be working on implementing some of these in the coming days. Kether83 12:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I will have to look at my parents photo albums from the 80's. I may have photos of the west end restoration, or photos of how bad the line got in the years it was dormant. If I have them, I'll scan them and add one into the article. 3D jonny

I added three photos from the Maywood site, they sort of fit in the same general area. What we need now are older photos, and an image or two of the stack trains, hopefully one with an ALCO leading and one with one of the GE locomotives in the late 80s/early 90s. There are two pics linked from the article that show two ALCOs demises, but they don't really fit in the article and are copyrighted anyhow. So, onward to greatness :oP Kether83 04:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Walter Kidde & WB&E article
I have started a related article about Walter Kidde. Almost got deleted twice by Wiki vigilantes. As of now its very small, but I'm going to be working on it in the coming days. After that is completed I will start on a WB&E article. 3D jonny
 * The WB&E Article is now started. 3D jonny 01:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Revision of the 1980's history
I did a fairly large revision of the history following the Delewar Otsego purchase. The way the article was written made it seem like the goal of the purchase was to rebuild the line west of Butler, when in fact there was no real need until the stack trains 5 years later. The original goal of the purchase was to atleast find an owner that would keep service running for the consignees the railroad serviced. As history has shown, that was accomplised and a whole lot more! 3D jonny

Industrial branches
Do we want to invest any time into the branches of the NYS&W? On the Southern Division you've got the Lodi, Passaic, Pompton and Limecrest Industrial branches plus the completly abandoned Edgewater Branch. I can take on the Limecrest and and Pompton branches if we decide to cover them. 3D jonny
 * I suppose so - maybe in their own sections like southern div. branches and northern div. branches? Hey, you could mention the old pompton lakes branch that fed the DuPont powder works during WWII.  It's still partly there (take a look on google earth) Kether83 02:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I was checking out the Garden State Park way entry and I see they list all the exits in a wikitable. I was thinking we could do the same for the mile posts on the railroad. I have documentation as to what is at the major mile markers. It would be a bit of work, and maybe long, but do you guys think its worth it? I think it might be worth it in the end, the more info the better. 3D jonny 19:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Trash Transfer & conflicts with towns
The NYS&W has been doing a number of trash transfer (truck->train) operations in Hudson and eastern Bergen counties, causing friction with the towns along the route who have been claiming it violates their zoning and environmental regulations. The railroad says it's not required to follow local regulations, being regulated only by the FRA. This should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.95.123.6 (talk • contribs) 13:07, October 5, 2006.
 * This has no bearing on the article and I can't see how it could be written in a NPOV. There also was fricton with towns along the ROW when the route was re-opened west of Butler. This wasn't mentioned in the article. There is always friction between railroads and towns all over the US. If we wrote about railroad relations with local municipalities it would be a seperate article. 3D jonny 18:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If someone can figure out how to mention it in NPOV.. like in association with the Paterson derailment a few months ago.. that's great but otherwise it seems a little one-sided. Kether83 11:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Loco Roster
When the to-do list calls for a locomotive roster, is it asking for an all time roster or a current roster? 3D jonny


 * I think we can simplify it here to a current roster, unless there were particularly notable locomotives in the railroad's history that need to be mentioned. It seems to me that this is one place where the KISS principle applies.  Slambo (Speak)  14:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, an all-time roster would be a bit much, but a current loco roster would be a great addition. There would be many questions as well:  Would an all-time roster would need to be inclusive of every piece of self-propelled power such as ACF cars, ex-Erie oil-electric railcars and RDCs?  Where is the line drawn?  For this matter, would a current roster include the OnTrack RDCs at Syracuse?  Let's have a little vote here, I say yes, since they're NYS&W-owned and self-propelled. Kether83 02:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Failing GA nomination
Unfortunately, the article is not yet quite up to the GA standard. While the overall organization is good, I found it simply impossible to follow all the details and railroad jargon. More explanations and wikilinks would be helpful. And I would avoid jargon such as road for railroad. Also the level of detail seems higher than necessary in some areas of the more recent history. The referencing should also be improved. I use one citation per section as a basic criterion. A minor note, the info box lists the founding date as 1854 but the text begins with the aftermath of the Civil War ten years later. Eluchil404 08:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * We will work on the article some more and renominate it. The level of detail should always be as high as possible. Thats how REAL encyclopedias operate. Hopefully we can raise the level of detail over the entire article. 3D jonny 14:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, not to sound bitter or anything, but I was cruising wikipedia and I came across the jojo article. Exuse me, THIS article is a GA? No wonder people are leaving wikipedia left and right.3D jonny 19:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That article is pretty well written and has a ton of references, so it's good. Plus, data is organised into tables and it has a good overall style to it.  That said, let's learn from it!  I'll be taking some time to go over the article's text sentence by sentence.  It's how I learned editing from a really great english prof.  I'll start tonight - on with the fun. Kether83 06:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Moving 70's and 80's
I made the 1970's part of the 50's and 60's. I moved it from the 80's because of the level of detail in the 1980's section tend to be a little overwhelming. I don't want to loose the detail since it is such an amazing turn around. I think we could (and should) split the 50's into its own section, since it was the period that the NYS&W came out of reorginization and was economically strong. The 1960's and 1970's (the Maidmen Era) should be their own section togther, as this was really a dark time for the railroad. 3D jonny 16:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

cleanup tagged
I'm taking advantage of my third-shift boredom to go over the article. the tag should be gone by monday, and the article a bit fresher. Kether83 11:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup results
I've finished a good and thorough go-over. There were a few contradictions I fixed, as well as some issues with keeping a chronological order. Spelling and grammar were checked, as well as the flow and tone of the article. This said, there are some points I noted. Here's the roster info I took out of the article, for archival purposes:  MAKE -- MODEL -- ROAD # -- NOTES EMD -- SW9  -- 120  -- sold in summer of 2006 to loco. rebuilder in dansville, NY EMD -- GP40 -- 3042 -- originally high-hood, low hood came from donor SD45 #3612 EMD -- SD40T -- 3010 -- originally numbered 3002 EMD -- SD40T -- 3012 -- EMD -- SD40T -- 3014 -- EMD -- SD40T -- 3016 -- EMD -- SD45 -- 3612 -- scrapped, low hood to GP40 #3042 EMD -- SD45 -- 3614 -- salvaged for parts EMD -- SD45 -- 3618 -- in svc, rebuilt 2006 EMD -- SD45 -- 3634 -- in svc EMD -- E9   -- 2400 -- EMD -- E9   -- 2402 -- EMD -- SD70M -- 4050 -- leased to IORY EMD -- SD70M -- 4052 -- leased to IORY EMD -- SD70M -- 4054 -- leased to IORY GE -- 8-40B -- 4002 -- off lease in 2003, to P&W RR 2004 GE -- 8-40B -- 4004 --                          GE -- 8-40B -- 4006 --                          GE -- 8-40B -- 4008 --                           The only real info I could find on IORY is at http://www.railamerica.com/railmaps/IORY.htm
 * Some explanation of contemporary railroads like PRR, NYC, Erie, et cetera might be given in the history section to explain the scope of the railroad to someone unfamiliar with east-coast RR history, or even american RR history altogether.
 * Take some time to search for a term you add - there might be an article already added covering the subject. Add a link, and add a redirect if necessary.  Try not to remove links if possible - we want to make knowledge easier to access, not harder.  I say this because there is a separate article dealing with OnTrack which was not linked here.  I'm as guilty of this as the next person - so I'll endeavour to search more as well.
 * Bolding other railroad names? Check out the L&HR article to see what this looks like.
 * If there isn't an article on the subject, please start it! Don't be shy, even one sentence is great as long as there is some information that wasn't there before.  It's how Wikipedia works.  During this edit, I created stubs for Dewitt C. Littlejohn and the Tangshan Locomotive and Rolling Stock Works.
 * The OnTrack article doesn't talk about NYS&W at all. Can someone remedy this?  I'm sort of edited out for a while.
 * Keep the referenced coming - we should have a bit more for an article of this size.
 * Was the RR ever AAR Class I? I doubt it - maybe class II.  I'll work on verifying this but if someone else can, go right ahead. (Mentioned in the end of the "Dieselization..." section.
 * When was the railroad cut back to Sparta Junction? A date would be good here (End of first paragraph, 50's and 60's section)
 * Other articles have a misc. section or even a trivia section. We might want to do this for information like "The railroad numbers all locos according to horsepower and even numbers are assigned to MU-equipped units.  RDCs and the 142 are exceptions."  It sort of doesn't fit well anywhere else.  Plus, we get to put in other miscellaneous information we find.  Also, if this section collects information that can be put elsewhere, it can be edited to fit in.
 * The article desperately needs a great closing, which I can't think of at the moment.
 * Roster. We need one, but there's been discussion as to whether we ought to go with a current one or an all-time one.  I say now is the time to go for the gusto.  Let's do an all-time roster, but in the interest of sanity, let's make a separate article out of it.  Color coding for current in-service units maybe?  (in the interest of keeping it easy-to-use)

That's it.. I'm taking a break for a while :o) Kether83 08:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The road was cut back to Sparta Junction after the abandonment of the L&NE. It was 1962, but I don't know the exact date. I think the last run before the scrappers started was in october of that year. I'll look it up. The NYSW was a class 1 road early in the 20th century. The class 1 threshold has changed through the years. The NYSW proclaimed itself the first class one railroad to be fully dieselized. 3D jonny 12:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

New photos
nice find on the 3012 pic.. I gained approval for this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/numsom/215557409/in/set-72157594187380682/ but I can't really think of where it should fit. the article seems to have enough "modern" photos, we should concentrate on sourcing/finding approval for historical ones - am I right here? Kether83 07:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the 3012 picture is mine. I was busy last night. I uploaded that picture for this article, plus 3 varients of the EMD SD70 for that article. Its nice to have a collection to draw from. Makes the copyright alot easier!. 3D jonny 11:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * hah.. don't I know it - that's me in the 3618 cab :o) Are you in Butler or no? Kether83 10:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, those were the days for me when the SU-99 and 100 were MAJOR trains for me to fan. When I moved to Hackettstown, I got spoiled by the NS Lehigh Line in Phillipsburg. 3D jonny 19:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Henry Norton Bio
I was looking over the article and the number of red links is down to three. I've eliminated the one for Norton. Currently it is linked to the Walter Kidde article. I intend on turning that into a joint article for ease of reading. The only ones I saw red left were, Irving Maidmen and Millrift, PA. I don't know much about Maidmen, other then he almost ran the Q right into the ground, so I'm leaving his article alone for someone else to tackle.

Now that the Mets are eliminated from the postseason, I'm going to go full blast on the Kidde/Norton/WB&E articles.3D jonny 13:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah after seeing Chavez throw that HR back into the park I was ecstatic.. then they lost and.. yeah. Huge Mets fan.  But yes, much more free time now at least.  About Mill Rift - there should be some WikiProject about PA towns, and they should have made an article - I'll see if I can dig up info. Kether83 11:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

More Maps
I'm working on a huge map project that will better illustrate the route and the towns along it. I found a map from 1884 that I can base a map off of. it won't be perfect, but it will look decent and, as my aim is, will put all of these names in some sort of context that someone from Timbuktu can now understand. It's a realy huge project (the map source is 9024x8048 pixels) but I think the time spent will be well worth it. Along with this will come a rewrite of the Route section, splitting it into Northern and Southern Division subsections. Someone donate a grapics tablet :oP Kether83 12:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I used the Bureau of Transporation Statistics NTAD 2005 dataset to create the map below, but I have a question about the trackage rights shown from Binghamton to Buffalo. Neither the Wiki article nor the map from the NYSW web site include that western portion as part of the NYSW system.  Is it possible that the NYSW has trackage rights, but doesn't operate on that section?
 * -- JimIrwin 22:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think they have trackage rights west of Bingo any more. They had them while operating the D&H years ago. I do like the map though, I feel more comfortable using it then the one from the corporate website.3D jonny 00:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur - also I believe they don't have rights over the CSX riverline but just run trains as needed. here's a tiny portion of what I've been working on: [[Image:GFDL-CC_NYSW_Map.jpg|right]] I'm trying to show both the current main, the former main, and trackage rights over other lines.  green = current main, red = old main, purple = former L&HR.  The colors aren't staying - they're just for contrast while I work with a ton of other data. Kether83 04:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I removed the segments from Binghamton to Buffalo. BTW, if its useful to you, I have a couple of sketch maps of the abandoned lines in Sussex County. I created them from the NTAD, plus tracing the signs of the old rights of way from aerial photos.  The spatial accuracy is high, but I'm only moderately confident of the labelling of the ownership.  See Sussex County Abandonded RR (1) and Sussex County Abandonded RR (2). JimIrwin
 * [[Image:NYSW_map_2.png|thumb|300px|NYSW Railroad|left]]

I placed my finished system map in the article to do away with the unlicensed, fair-use one from NYSW.com. There is another version of this with towns labeled along the line - should that go in instead? I thought maybe it would look cleaner with no labels except the states, and the key of course. I took this map and cut it into pieces for the Route section. The New Jersey one might be missing Stockholm.. I think I want to put that in as there's a reference to it in the article (highest point on rails). The Northern Division map isn't done yet, it'll be in here soon. I'm just fairly exhausted. Tell me what you think... Kether83 06:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Those are great maps! Can one be made for the WB&E article? It will need one soon. I'm feeling more and more confident this is article is ready for GA renomination. Who wants to do the honors? 3D jonny 12:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

List of Presidents done.
I finished the presidents list. I forgot a few years ago, my uncle gave me a copy of an old book that covers the history of the railroad up until 1939. He gave me the re-issued version from 1980. It had a list of the missing president needed to complete the list. I only used NYS&W presidents. Previous railroads and Erie presidents were left off. 3D jonny 19:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Minor course correction
I changed Moodna to Starucca Viaduct. Under the original haulage agreement, NYS&W did cross Moodna. With the trackage rights, they join the old Grahm line west of Moodna. They only cross Starucca now. 3D jonny 12:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I just looked on Google Earth at where Moodna is.. wow, DUH. Thanks for catching that one heh Kether83 13:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)