Talk:New York City/Archive 22

Race and ethnicity
For those of us playing along at home,, where was the "compromise to leave this section as is"? Of the −27,682 bytes removed on November 2, Chronus re-added only +2,596. You've now somehow reintroduced +23,303 bytes with your classic WP:OWNERSHIP-style "Kindly I beg you to let Chronus and me deal with this section" edit summary. Seasider53 (talk) 06:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually Seasider53, I can play along as well. First, please do look the paragraph by Chronus before your comment in the Talk:New York City section above. Chronus and I agreed to compromise by maintaining the Race and Ethnicity status as is.  Then, note that even I made many more comments than Chronus after Nikkimedia came in and recklessly gutted the section, and it even took me many days to recover from that shock to the system to reflect and finally decide the right thing to do. When an edit shocks the system, one is not always able to respond in kind immediately, nobody wants to retaliate or start an edit war. You just sort of accept it glumly for the time being until you have your moment of realization. And finally, I don't want ownership; just competence with the very narrow and specific matter at hand, which in this case is this extremely critical section, which is not a broad statement about any editor whatsoever. Castncoot (talk) 20:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, auditioning for a thriller novel aside, are you willing to discuss the merits of your inclusion when other editors seem to have an issue with it? These harsh removals cut me deep, man won’t really cut it as reasoning. Seasider53 (talk) 22:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Seasider53: These harsh, INCOMPETENT removals cut me deep, man. There, fixed it for you. Castncoot (talk) 01:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Castncoot@Seasider53@Nikkimaria Can we work together on a shorter version of the current text? Chronus (talk) 02:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Sure. Here's a proposal. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)



The city's population in 2020 was 30.9% White (non-Hispanic), 28.7% Hispanic or Latino, 20.2% Black or African American (non-Hispanic), 15.6% Asian, and 0.2% Native American (non-Hispanic). A total of 3.4% of the non-Hispanic population identified with more than one race.

In 2013, approximately 36% of the city's population is foreign born, and more than half of all children are born to mothers who are immigrants. Throughout its history, New York has been a major port of entry for immigrants into the United States. In New York, no single country or region of origin dominates. The ten largest sources of foreign-born individuals in the city were the Dominican Republic, China, Mexico, Guyana, Jamaica, Ecuador, Haiti, India, Russia, and Trinidad and Tobago, Queens has the largest Asian American and Andean populations in the United States, and is also the most ethnically and linguistically diverse urban area in the world.

New York City has the largest European and non-Hispanic white population of any American city, with 2.7 million in 2012. The European diaspora residing in the city is very diverse and many European ethnic groups have formed enclaves in New York. More than 12 million European immigrants were received at Ellis Island between 1892 and 1954.

Asian Americans in New York City, according to the 2010 census, number more than one million, greater than the combined totals of San Francisco and Los Angeles. New York contains the highest total Asian population of any U.S. city proper. The Manhattan's Chinatown is the highest concentration of Chinese people in the Western Hemisphere,*
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.

New York is also home to the highest Jewish population of any city in the world, numbering 1.6 million in 2022, more than Tel Aviv and Jerusalem combined. In the borough of Brooklyn, an estimated 1 in 4 residents is Jewish.


 * Seems fine to me, with a couple of minor tweaks (I don't know if 1 in 4 is better expressed as a quarter, for example). Seasider53 (talk) 11:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Seasider53: These harsh, INCOMPETENT removals cut me deep, man. You're just as incompetent as Nikkimaria with regards to this section if you didn't even recognize that they just fundamentally COPY-PASTED their previous version here and tried to pass it off as something new! Without even fixing any aforementioned flaws! It's terrible and totally unprofessional, and looks like a kid in primary school could have done this. Misses the point and demonstrates a complete lack of topic experience. And perhaps most glaringly of all, just fundamentally wiped out the presence of approaching 3 MILLION Latin Americans in the city. And you didn't even notice this, Seasider53?? And this is supposed to instill trust and confidence in you, Seasider53? Is it really too much to ask for competence at the slight expense of perhaps a slight amount of inclusivity? At what point does quality actually matter over simply checking some boxes in terms of article length when the result is just plain HORRIBLE??? Why even bother having an article then? Castncoot (talk) 01:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Now on to a more serious and more trustworthy editor with regards to this section, namely Chronus, (who lives in Brazil btw and has impressively gained more topic experience about New York simply by taking the initiative to do so!): How about we take each paragraph Chronus as is currently and truncate each paragraph to preserve most of the important points that each paragraph is trying to convey? This way we preserve most of the most salient points and address each major ethic group with the appropriate weight it deserves. Would you like to give it a try first Chronus, then maybe I can modify it and we can go through a couple of iterations here on this page before we post the final version on the main page? If other editors could respect this, we can actually accomplish this without disruption, since too many cooks adding salt at roughly the same time spoil the broth, as they say. And then once it's posted on the main page, it's obviously a free-for-all in abidance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Castncoot (talk) 01:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It sounds like, through consensus, we can put the new text into the article. If anyone does happen to take issue with it, we can always discuss. Seasider53 (talk) 11:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey guys. What do you think of the proposal below:

Race and ethnicity


The city's population in 2020 was 30.9% White (non-Hispanic), 28.7% Hispanic or Latino, 20.2% Black or African American (non-Hispanic), 15.6% Asian, and 0.2% Native American (non-Hispanic). A total of 3.4% of the non-Hispanic population identified with more than one race.

In 2013, approximately 36% of the city's population is foreign born, and more than half of all children are born to mothers who are immigrants. Throughout its history, New York has been a major port of entry for immigrants into the United States. In New York, no single country or region of origin dominates. The ten largest sources of foreign-born individuals in the city were the Dominican Republic, China, Mexico, Guyana, Jamaica, Ecuador, Haiti, India, Russia, and Trinidad and Tobago, Queens has the largest Asian American and Andean populations in the United States, and is also the most ethnically and linguistically diverse urban area in the world.

The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns; the largest Asian Indian population in the Western Hemisphere; the largest Russian American, Italian American, and African American populations; the largest Dominican American, Puerto Rican American, and South American and second-largest overall Hispanic population in the United States, numbering 4.8 million; and includes multiple established Chinatowns within New York City alone.

New York City has the largest European and non-Hispanic white population of any American city, with 2.7 million in 2012. The European diaspora residing in the city is very diverse and many European ethnic groups have formed enclaves in New York. More than 12 million European immigrants were received at Ellis Island between 1892 and 1954.

Asian Americans in New York City, according to the 2010 census, number more than one million, greater than the combined totals of San Francisco and Los Angeles. New York contains the highest total Asian population of any U.S. city proper. The Manhattan's Chinatown is the highest concentration of Chinese people in the Western Hemisphere,*
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.

New York is also home to the highest Jewish population of any city in the world, numbering 1.6 million in 2022, more than Tel Aviv and Jerusalem combined. In the borough of Brooklyn, an estimated 1 in 4 residents is Jewish.

Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Guyana, Peru, and Brazil, are the top source countries from South America for immigrants to the New York City region; the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Haiti, and Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean; Nigeria, Egypt, Ghana, Tanzania, Kenya, and South Africa from Africa; and El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala in Central America. Amidst a resurgence of Puerto Rican migration to New York City, this population had increased to approximately 1.5 million in the metropolitan area.

Since 2010, Little Australia has emerged and is growing rapidly, representing the Australasian presence in Nolita, Manhattan. In 2011, there were an estimated 20,000 Australian residents of New York City, nearly quadruple the 5,537 in 2005. Qantas Airways of Australia and Air New Zealand have been planning for long-haul flights from New York to Sydney and Auckland, which would both rank among the longest non-stop flights in the world.

Chronus (talk) 22:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * There's quite a bit of repetition in it - between the second and second-last paragraph, and again between the third and fifth. How about this version? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Race and ethnicity


The city's population in 2020 was 30.9% White (non-Hispanic), 28.7% Hispanic or Latino, 20.2% Black or African American (non-Hispanic), 15.6% Asian, and 0.2% Native American (non-Hispanic). A total of 3.4% of the non-Hispanic population identified with more than one race.

, approximately 36% of the city's population is foreign born, and more than half of all children are born to mothers who are immigrants. Throughout its history, New York has been a major port of entry for immigrants into the United States. No single country or region of origin dominates. The ten largest sources of foreign-born individuals in the city were the Dominican Republic, China, Mexico, Guyana, Jamaica, Ecuador, Haiti, India, Russia, and Trinidad and Tobago, The metropolitan area has the largest Asian Indian population in the Western Hemisphere; the largest Russian American, Italian American, and African American populations; the largest Dominican American, Puerto Rican American, and South American and second-largest overall Hispanic population in the United States, numbering 4.8 million. Amidst a resurgence of Puerto Rican migration to New York City, this population had increased to approximately 1.5 million. Queens has the largest Asian American and Andean populations in the United States, and is also the most ethnically and linguistically diverse urban area in the world.

New York contains the highest total Asian population of any U.S. city proper. Asian Americans in New York City, according to the 2010 census, number more than one million, greater than the combined totals of San Francisco and Los Angeles. Manhattan's Chinatown is the highest concentration of Chinese people in the Western Hemisphere,*
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.

New York City has the largest European and non-Hispanic white population of any American city, with 2.7 million in 2012. The European diaspora residing in the city is very diverse and many European ethnic groups have formed enclaves. New York is also home to the highest Jewish population of any city in the world, numbering 1.6 million in 2022, more than Tel Aviv and Jerusalem combined. In the borough of Brooklyn, an estimated one in four residents is Jewish.


 * @Nikkimaria There is no repetition. The second paragraph talks about the biggest countries of origin of immigrants, while the penultimate paragraph talks about the biggest emitters of emigrants by continent. The third paragraph addresses the metropolitan region. Chronus (talk) 00:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * What do you think this proposal: Chronus (talk) 00:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Race and ethnicity


The city's population in 2020 was 30.9% White (non-Hispanic), 28.7% Hispanic or Latino, 20.2% Black or African American (non-Hispanic), 15.6% Asian, and 0.2% Native American (non-Hispanic). A total of 3.4% of the non-Hispanic population identified with more than one race.

In 2013, approximately 36% of the city's population is foreign born, and more than half of all children are born to mothers who are immigrants. Throughout its history, New York has been a major port of entry for immigrants into the United States. In New York, no single country or region of origin dominates. The ten largest sources of foreign-born individuals in the city were the Dominican Republic, China, Mexico, Guyana, Jamaica, Ecuador, Haiti, India, Russia, and Trinidad and Tobago, Queens has the largest Asian American and Andean populations in the United States, and is also the most ethnically and linguistically diverse urban area in the world.

The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns; the largest Asian Indian population in the Western Hemisphere; the largest Russian American, Italian American, and African American populations; the largest Dominican American, Puerto Rican American, and South American and second-largest overall Hispanic population in the United States, numbering 4.8 million; and includes multiple established Chinatowns within New York City alone. Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Guyana, Peru, and Brazil, are the top source countries from South America for immigrants to the New York City region; the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Haiti, and Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean; Nigeria, Egypt, Ghana, Tanzania, Kenya, and South Africa from Africa; and El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala in Central America. Amidst a resurgence of Puerto Rican migration to New York City, this population had increased to approximately 1.5 million in the metropolitan area.

New York City has the largest European and non-Hispanic white population of any American city, with 2.7 million in 2012. The European diaspora residing in the city is very diverse and many European ethnic groups have formed enclaves in New York. More than 12 million European immigrants were received at Ellis Island between 1892 and 1954. By 1900, Germans were the largest immigrant group, followed by the Irish, Jews, and Italians. In 1940, Whites represented 92% of the city's population at 6.6 million.

Asian Americans in New York City, according to the 2010 census, number more than one million, greater than the combined totals of San Francisco and Los Angeles. New York contains the highest total Asian population of any U.S. city proper. The Manhattan's Chinatown is the highest concentration of Chinese people in the Western Hemisphere,*
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population.

New York is also home to the highest Jewish population of any city in the world, numbering 1.6 million in 2022, more than Tel Aviv and Jerusalem combined. In the borough of Brooklyn, an estimated 1 in 4 residents is Jewish.

Since 2010, Little Australia has emerged and is growing rapidly, representing the Australasian presence in Nolita, Manhattan. In 2011, there were an estimated 20,000 Australian residents of New York City, nearly quadruple the 5,537 in 2005. Qantas Airways of Australia and Air New Zealand have been planning for long-haul flights from New York to Sydney and Auckland, which would both rank among the longest non-stop flights in the world.


 * Not seeing any particular benefit in expanding the historical information in this section - that should be covered in the subarticle. Much prefer Proposal B C. Alternatively, the metropolitan area data could be left to New York metropolitan area and hatnoted here. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * We are trying to reach a consensus here. For me, we would stick with proposal A, but we have to give up on some things. What do you think of this proposal:

Race and ethnicity


The city's population in 2020 was 30.9% White (non-Hispanic), 28.7% Hispanic or Latino, 20.2% Black or African American (non-Hispanic), 15.6% Asian, and 0.2% Native American (non-Hispanic). A total of 3.4% of the non-Hispanic population identified with more than one race.

, approximately 36% of the city's population is foreign born, and more than half of all children are born to mothers who are immigrants. Throughout its history, New York has been a major port of entry for immigrants into the United States. No single country or region of origin dominates. The ten largest sources of foreign-born individuals in the city were the Dominican Republic, China, Mexico, Guyana, Jamaica, Ecuador, Haiti, India, Russia, and Trinidad and Tobago, Queens has the largest Asian American and Andean populations in the United States, and is also the most ethnically and linguistically diverse urban area in the world.

The metropolitan area has the largest Asian Indian population in the Western Hemisphere; the largest Russian American, Italian American, and African American populations; the largest Dominican American, Puerto Rican American, and South American and second-largest overall Hispanic population in the United States, numbering 4.8 million. Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Guyana, Peru, and Brazil, are the top source countries from South America for immigrants to the New York City region; the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Haiti, and Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean; Nigeria, Egypt, Ghana, Tanzania, Kenya, and South Africa from Africa; and El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala in Central America.

New York contains the highest total Asian population of any U.S. city proper. Asian Americans in New York City, according to the 2010 census, number more than one million, greater than the combined totals of San Francisco and Los Angeles. Manhattan's Chinatown is the highest concentration of Chinese people in the Western Hemisphere,*
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.
 * while Queens is home to the largest Tibetan population outside Asia. Arab Americans number over 160,000 in New York City, with the highest concentration in Brooklyn. Central Asians, primarily Uzbek Americans, are a rapidly growing segment of the city's non-Hispanic White population. The metropolitan area is home to 20% of the nation's Indian Americans and at least 20 Little India enclaves, and 15% of all Korean Americans and four Koreatowns.

New York City has the largest European and non-Hispanic white population of any American city, with 2.7 million in 2012. The European diaspora residing in the city is very diverse and many European ethnic groups have formed enclaves. New York is also home to the highest Jewish population of any city in the world, numbering 1.6 million in 2022, more than Tel Aviv and Jerusalem combined. In the borough of Brooklyn, an estimated one in four residents is Jewish.

Chronus (talk) 00:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * That version repeats the same sentence about Puerto Rico twice, which presumably you didn't intend? If that's fixed this could be workable, although A or C would also be fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:35, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria I had already corrected this before you posted this comment. Read again. Chronus (talk) 00:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Must've been an edit conflict. So, as above: A/C/E. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria Okay, can we stick with proposal E? I think that in this version as many ethnic groups and nationalities as possible are mentioned, which makes the text more comprehensive. What do you think? Chronus (talk) 00:42, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, without that added graph - it isn't legible. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria Yes check.svg Done Chronus (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I can live with this. Great job, Chronus and all. Castncoot (talk) 02:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Castncoot Thank you! Chronus (talk) 02:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Reads well....just need to fix the minnie images. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 14:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

PATH
Just so that we're on the same page, this is not a "critical part of New York City's history":

''The World Trade Center PATH station, which had opened on July 19, 1909, as the Hudson Terminal, was destroyed in the attacks. A temporary station was built and opened in 2003 and a 800,000-square-foot (74,000 m2) permanent rail station designed by Santiago Calatrava, the World Trade Center Transportation Hub, the city's third-largest hub, was completed in 2016.''

Also, I'm visiting the city in a couple of weeks, so I can expect to be treated as a savant upon my return. That is how it works, right? Seasider53 (talk) 12:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @Seasider53 Do you mean to say this paragraph should be deleted? Chronus (talk) 15:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct. Seasider53 (talk) 16:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I see that NYC has only been a featured article, not a good article, despite it being nominated a couple of times in the last 20 years. It's obvious why, given its poor state until recently, but maybe it's time to try again with the changes made. Seasider53 (talk) 16:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It has previously been both an FA and a GA. It was demoted from FA status in 2010 and delisted as a GA in 2013. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

No sports section
I noticed there was no sports section, unlike most other major cities. Is there a reason for this? Sumdood2798 (talk) 16:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * There is a sports section; it is a subsection of Culture. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Sumdood2798 (talk) 17:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 💀 Cleter (talk) 00:50, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead too long
A discussion was happening here regarding article ledes, and this article was specifically mentioned as a case where through accretion, the lead went from being near-ideal to too long. I agree, so I figured I'd drop a topic here about it. Remsense  留  02:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)


 * For reference, here is the state of the article when it was demoted from featured status. I think it is four full paragraphs mostly touching on the correct things, but I will gladly concede that maybe they can be two full and two stuffed paragraphs. Remsense  留  06:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Let me shorten it. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I made my edit at Special:Diff/1190307831. Here's the edit summary as promised: - CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Removed "one of the world's largest natural harbors". Not true, as Hamburg's harbor is much bigger and has a much more extensive port. As this is not the objectively defining feature of NYC, it is not due to put that in the first sentence of the lead. I'm open to mention that somewhere else in the lead though, but for now, it has to go.
 * Listed the district names.
 * Added [by whom], because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
 * Removed "NYC has more than double the population of Los Angeles, the nation's second-most populous city. New York is the geographical and demographic center of both the Northeast megalopolis and the New York metropolitan area, the largest metropolitan area in the U.S. by both population and urban area." I removed this because we have already established that NYC is a populous city in the first sentence. Keep that in the article body though.
 * Removed "making it the most linguistically diverse city in the world", can be inferred from the >800 languages stats
 * Removed "If the New York metropolitan area were its own country, it would have the tenth-largest economy in the world." I do understand the need to communicate scale to the reader, but this sentence feels trivia-y and also comparing GDP of a city against GDP of a country is somewhat misleading. I'm open to adding this sentence back however.
 * Removed "New York City is an established safe haven for global investors.", cited to an unreliable source. Also this can be inferred from the paragraph
 * Moved "New York City is the most expensive city in the world for expatriates to live." from fourth to second paragraph. It makes sense as the fourth paragraph is about NYC's economy and the second paragraph is about NYC's population.
 * The cutting is done. It's been cut even after Remsense had made their comments above. It's been cut several times, and now we're down to bone. You in particular don't have NYC topic experience and clearly have no idea what you're doing. I know you've tried this before, but unfortunately, despite your good faith efforts I'm sure, you do a very poor job every time, and this time is no different. This article is about the most complex city in the world, and so yes, all around it will be longer. Much simpler and much more homogeneous cities like Hanoi, for example, can have leads one-third this long. Not NYC. Castncoot (talk) 03:15, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ha ha, down to the bone. It's not. It's amazing how little the lead is communicating to the reader with so many words. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:10, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Recalling previous conversations, it seems that you do not want to work with me. Fine. Just please stop denying that NYC's lead is too long and stop exhibiting ownership behaviors when things do not go your way. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I was checking the history of the page and saw your edits, and couldn't comprehend why they were reverted. I've kept your changes and would like to express my thanks for your contributions towards the NYC page. I don't think the existing thanks feature works - if it does, I want to express my thanks properly anyway. Cutting down the lead is a headache to work with and what you did was brilliant. Cavoodles (talk) 08:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much in return - CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Some of these cuts look good, I would quibble on a few that seem somewhat overly extensive. New York Harbor is a critical geographical feature to NY history and its economic role. It may not be the largest harbor, but size is not really what we're going for, it's significance. It can be reworded to include something about the harbor, that is true, and reasonably relevant. Similarly, to the GDP stats, I would emphasize these more, because NYC's role as a center of global finance is one of its major reasons for hegemony over the American Northeast when it comes to shipping, and later banking, Wall Street, is synonymous with American and indeed global finance. The comparison of a city to a country is very common in the sources. Andre🚐 05:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Could we compare NYC's GDP with other cities though? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure. We could. It gets tricky to do apples to apples because of metro areas. That's why the cities to nations comparison is used, I'm positing. e.g. I'm fairly confident NY is still the top world city by GDP or #2, but when you do metro area, I think Tokyo is bigger. Andre🚐 07:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * For the port, something like, the largest port in the USA by cargo volume, ie freight imports and exports. Yea or nay, what say ye Andre🚐