Talk:New York City English/Archive 1

Questioning everything
Why focus on the speech of New Yorkers of European ancestry? Of the more than 8 million people who lived in NYC as of 2003, only about 44% were white. Of them, many were transplants from other parts of the US, or even foreign born, and even among natives, the richer and better educated seldom have regional accents. The New York accent described in this article is characteristic of only a small minority of New Yorkers. Why focus on it, especially to the exclusion of all other local speech patterns? It is time for a fresh look at this subject.Thefactis (talk) 04:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you read the article, it says that the term NY Dialect is a misnomer. However, there is linguistic justification. European American speech is the most consistently differentiated geographically, and in most cases (most controversially in the south), it is the origin of most of the features that distinguish other ethnolects geographically. If you listen to Latino and African American New Yorkers, you can find elements traceable to NY dialect and that distinguish them from counterparts say in Chicago. Take a look at Carmen Fought's book Language and Ethnicity. (Cambridge U. Press 2006).
 * In general, if you're interested enough to "question everything" you should learn a bit about the topic from people who have spent careers studying it with a good deal of rigor. So, if you're a student, take courses in sociolinguistics. I say this because your comment that people can tell geographic location is not based on any research. No one has ever demonstrated that ability. If you are sure it is the case, you're going to have to learn how to do a dialect recognition study and carry it out if you want to convince us "experts." Making "it's obvious" claims doesn't cut it because some things that are "obvious" are false. The only attempts I am aware to show an ability to detect these differences are by my students (very small scale ones) and they came up with zilch.
 * I don't mean to put you down, but it's important to base claims on the best evidence available. It's perfectly possible that you're right, that there are intra-regional differences, but no one has shown it to be the case. mnewmanqc (talk) 09:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Good point: evidence is what's needed here. I propose to solve the problem by deleting everything that isn't properly sourced within the coming week.Thefactis (talk) 20:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

ChrisRuvolo, I assume you changed my "citation required" because I used the wrong code. Would it be possible for you to tell me how it was off and how it should have been done, so that I can do it right next time? Thanks!Thefactis (talk) 23:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact is, The goal here is and should be to make the best article possible for readers who are interested in the subject of NY dialect and want to know more about it. A number of professional sociolinguists including professors and doctoral candidates have contributed to the article and have it on their watch lists to further that goal. The linguistlist, an e-mail list for linguists has also been involved, as part of their language on wikipedia project. A number of amateurs who are interested in the topic have also made contributions and provided feedback in the same spirit. We have always been able to work out any disagreements about details or citations amicably mainly by using the talk page to communicate with each other. Threatening to do a massive deletion is not in that same constructive spirit.


 * About citations: the article had a citations required template added at an earlier point in its history. Citations were then added by me and others, and that template was removed, which is why maybe Chris removed your placement of a new one. I don't know maybe he will say so, maybe not. Placing the citation after each specific claim after each phonological feature, geographical limit, and claim about racial scope of the dialect would, as I'm sure you know, create a very messy article. What I suggest you do, is look at the NY dialect literature and find a way of improving the connections between citations and claims. If you then find some facts stated that are not covered, state them here. If no one can provide the citation, then it makes sense to remove it. That of course assumes that you are really interested in the question, and it would be a positive contribution. It is also a more mature response than a massive deletion, and it is likely to have a more long-standing impact.


 * About, the specific issue which has been bothering you, the supposed claim that there is identifiably different accents in different parts of the dialect area: There is not only no evidence for it, there is also the expressed belief by the founder of the field of variationist sociolinguistics, that no such variation exists. That founder, William Labov, has been shown to be wrong before about some claims he made during his career—as he has admitted—and will no doubt be shown wrong about other issues. However, at this point, this position stands as the most likely claim about this topic. If you are convinced he is wrong, and you show it, either by a dialect identification study or by finding some geographical differentiation in dialect features, I'm sure Labov and the rest of us would be thrilled to hear it. Again, it comes down to maturity and intellectual integrity. mnewmanqc (talk) 09:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Threatening? I really don't see why you would feel threatened by a Talk page entry calling for citations to sources. That's a procedure suggested in Wikipedia policy, which specifically provides that "material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." Is a general reference enough? No: "The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question." In the case of books, that includes page numbers. "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." If that isn't clear, then you may wish to reread Wikipedia policy on verifiability.Thefactis (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

New York or Southern New York?
The accent described here is typical of New York City and its metropolitan area, but hardly describes all of New York. Shouldn't it be renamed accordingly? Perhaps as New York City accent or regional accent? OR something of that sort?Thefactis (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * New York dialect is the traditional name in the field and "New York accent" or Brooklynese or some such is the common non-specialist name. New York State is a political unit but not a coherent cultural or linguistic one. You don't hear someone refer to "New York" to mean the state without a qualifier or a contextual factor (politician in Albany) making the reference to the state clear. This issue is discussed below.mnewmanqc (talk) 07:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Silent H?
I have noticed a consident variant that is not mentioned, being a native new yorker, i usually pronounce words like hue, or houston or human, with silent h's. people around the country have always pointed this out, and it is something that i know a great deal of people from long island and new york do, is this worth mentioning?

I concur with the first person, Houston Human Huge Hue etc, are the most obvious aspect of this accent that remains among some NYers.
 * I'm also a native New Yorker, and I've actually never heard a native not pronounce "H". For example, how do you pronounce Houston St.? Because every native ive ever heard says (phonetically) "house-ton"--70.18.32.172 16:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

As a native New Yorker, I've noticed that there really isn't one New York accent, but several. The Italian version gets lots of play in Hollywood mob movies, while John Leguizamo has the Spanish version and Lenny Bruce and Woody Allen share a Jewish accent which sounds somewhat anachronistic to my ears (although I grew up on Staten Island, which hasn't much of a Jewish community; maybe I'm just not used to it). The accent isn't a matter of place so much as ethnicity and class: richer, "whitebread" people tend to have weaker accents, whether they're from downtown Brooklyn or nothern New Jersey.

Not necessarily true ; I've known affluent Brooklyn Heights natives who speak a very strong form of Brooklynese straight from mob movies. Also, I have known African Americans who have "white" New York/New Jersey accents, due to growing up in mostly white neighborhoods.

class and ethnicity
The key term is "tend to." There are always exceptions, but the thing is that we tend to place people by class more than by ethnicity. In fact, in sociolinguistic research, the patterns of the higher classes correspond to the more formal registers of all classes. Labov has a book called Sociolinguistic Patterns that discusses these tendencies, and the exceptions, in great detail.

I'm discussing this here because I'm not a linguist, and have no idea how to add this observation to the article in a useful way, beyond mere trivia. ~ FriedMilk 03:20, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think the article already covers your point where it states, "Generally, wealthier New Yorkers who come from educational backgrounds that are higher than average tend to speak without any trace of the accent." This could probably be repharsed better, though. Nelson Ricardo 03:30, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * Not really. The article might have a short sentence on class differences, but it has nothing on ethnicity and how the accent varies from one ethnic group to another. ~ FriedMilk 05:11, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

No dialect is homogeneous. Even individuals speak differently depending on different contexts. However, as I will be adding to the main article lately, what people refer to as an NY accent or dialect is really a European American (White) speech pattern, that varies somewhat depending on ethnicity (e.g. Jewish vs. Italian), but more by class. Bill Labov, who did the most important work on this dialect in the 1960s, noted that Jews tended to have more radically NY style pronunciations of the vowel in "cab," while Italians had more radical ones in "taught" (or vice versa can't remember for sure). However, there are a set of properties which are frequent, and moreover the same ones that diminish by moving up the social class scale also diminish as speakers are in more formal contexts rather than less formal ones.

I don't mean to say that no Latinos, Asians, or African Americans speak the more or less pure versions. Many, particularly middle class ones, do. Also, most others are to some extent influenced by the White pattern. However, the pattern is centered on Whites and its use is seen to some extent by minorities as "talking White.""

I'll work on the addition, including characteristic sounds in the next week or so.

educated new yorkers speak with the accent. if you look at sean hanity, and bill oreily, they both speak with new york accents. if you want an extreme example of wealth, you can look at donald trump.

New section on Jersey Shore
Some of the claims in the new section seem questionable to me&mdash;especially the bit about the influence of Canadian English, which is just not how dialect development usually works. (That is, tourists don't usually affect the development of the accent in the place they visit.) Can anyone find verification of these claims? If not, I'm inclined to delete at least that bit.

Also, should that really be in this article? Or should there be a separate article for the accents of parts of New Jersey more distant from New York? AJD 19:38, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm from central new jersey on the shore and people's accents around here really aren't too distinct - more similar to people from other parts of the country than to people from some parts of north jersey or new york. I mean, a lot of people do have those accents but that's because they weren't born in this part of the state.


 * There's something else I've noticed in my own speech and in some others is to pronounce certain words differently at different times almost arbitrarily - maybe I'm just strange, but is this a documented thing? I guess because I'm sort of in a regional grey area as far as accents go, but I pronounce "orange" in both ways for instance (see article). --Tothebarricades.tk 17:32, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

African American New Yorkers often speak African American Vernacular English (AAVE), though with some New York dialect features, as do most children of Black Caribbean immigrants.

This statement above lacks source, evidence and credibility. You're suppose to support facts with sources. Why would the children of Black Caribbean immigrants speak Vernacular English? There's no explanation to why they would. It's almost giving the impression that the only reason why they would is because they're black, which seems bigoted, to say the least. West Indian's are apart of their own ethnicity. They are not African-American. If you were a Jamaican of African origin, such as Colin Powell, you would not be apart of the same socioeconomic nor share the sociocultural aspects of African-American's. Most Caribbean immigrants who came to America were mainstream and economically and educationally speaking, would rank on the higher end of immigrant's. Many come to do skilled work, whether it be technological or nursing.

People really need to be careful with what they post, because people don't realize that opinions have a way of making it onto here. So everyone, please remember that.

Similarly, the children of professional migrants from other parts of the US frequently do not have many New York dialect features, and as these two populations come to dominate the southern half of Manhattan and neighboring parts of Brooklyn, the dialect is retreating from their neighborhoods.

I will be changing this quote to the following:

Similarly, the children of professional migrants from other parts of the US frequently do not have many New York dialect features, and as these two populations come to dominate Midtown, the Upper East Side, Upper West Side, southern half of Manhattan and neighboring parts of Brooklyn, the dialect is retreating from their neighborhoods.

Although it lacks source or evidence, I agree with the assessment of the writer. The impact of professional migrants on the New York accent, especially in wealth areas in Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn is incredibly impacting. Because of the wealth New York City has, it attracts many from the outside, both Americans from other states and immigrants, to move there. Because of this, the New York accent and even the identity to degrees, has been somewhat compromised. This generally is only true in the places where people most commonly move to. I added Midtown, the Upper East Side and Upper West Side to that statement, because plenty of American's move there, no differently than to the southern half of Manhattan or neighboring parts of Brooklyn. Sometimes even more. The basis for that assessment is similar to that of who made their own assessment on determining why the southern half of Manhattan or neighboring parts of Brooklyn would have retreating dialects.

TomNyj0127 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC).

changes to come
I haven't contibuted to Wiki yet, but I do want to add a considerable section to this page. I am a sociolinguist working on a related dialect (NY Latino English) and so I think doing so is appropriate. I just made one change, shifting the main term from accent to dialect, in keeping with normal sociolinguistic practice and making room for non-phonological features

Essentially, changes include:
 * increasing the new section on characteristic features. As is, the section is largely correct, but could use expansion. I will add major phonological features not included and there should be a few morphosyntactic and lexical ones.
 * making clear that the dialect is centered on the White or European American community. It's not the only NY Dialect.
 * a very short section on history
 * another very short section on its place in variationist research

The guidelines suggested that I place major changes here, and so I am doing that. I'll put them up in a week. If anyone wants to contact me and see a draft, they are welcome to at mnewman@qc.edu

My only dissatisfaction with the page is the inclusion of New Jersey outside the NY Dialect region. The dialects are not particularly closely related, and Jersey deserves its own page. I am not sure how to effect that change.

As for To the Barricades comment, variation in pronunciations is absolutely normal.

changes
The changes have been done. The page is now far more comprehensive in its coverage of NY Dialect. Some forms have been observed in my research but not published yet. Others have been, and I'll be adding references as time goes on.

One thing I'm not thrilled with is the short section on NJ. I don't think it makes sense to have New Jersey English as part of the overall title, but I left it at that. In fact, NJ has a number of different dialects, which are not particularly closely related. It makes no more sense to discuss New Jersey English than New York State English. But I didn't know how to deal with the issue in the article, so I left it at that. If someone has a solution, please do it. --mnewmanqc

bodega
The claim was made that the word bodega was from Taino (the indigenous language of what is now Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic). However, according to the Corominas Spanish etymological dictionary. Bodega comes originally from the Greek, Apotheca, which means larder or pantry. The word is used in peninsular (i.e., European) Spanish to mean wine cellar, and rarely in Cataluña to mean store(the Catalan word is Botiga). With all due respect, it is important to check etymologies and claims about language generally because there are a lot of widely accepted folk beliefs about them that are unsubstantiated. --mnewmanqc

Midwesterners??
Can someone please remove the part where it says that "midwesterners" moving to NY affected the accent. That is the most a historic argument I've ever heard. Northern and Western European immigrants might have caused this accent (likely), but there was not some sort of massive migration BACK to NY from the midwest.

I don't know where this argument was made. But I remember hearing something about this. It may have involved Williamsburg, the late 1800's and other information. I believe it came from Wikipedia, but it was a while ago. I remember reading about this somewhere too, but I haven't been able to find it. I'd imagine what ever Mid-Westerners there are that could have moved to New York though would have been after the New York accent came into it's modern existence. In other words, some moving from like Nebraska to Manhattan in like the 1980's isn't going to do much to the accent. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk)

Typically, especially with technology, the General American accent is becoming more commonly spread throughout America, including New York City. What should be taking into account is that many of the people who move to New York are upper-middle class. Throughout America, whether it be in New York, Boston, the south or where ever, upwardly mobile people lose their accents. It's often by force. Some people feel a need to conform to the social standard that business's want as their image. Also, many go to out of state colleges, which can influence them too. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk)

If there's a way someone can find something to go along with this though, it'd be interesting and helpful. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk)

three types of accent
I have eliminated the section on "Three types of accent in NYC," which claims that the dialect is characterized by a three way split between Irish, Italian, and Jewish speech patterns.

There are three main reasons for this elimination.

First, it's out of place, coming after the NJ section.

Second, it lacks rigor. The supposed distinction is just stated with no support or characterization. It may or may not be the case that such a three way distinction exists. But if so, the information about what the distinction consists of must be given if it is to be worth posting. In fact, Labov has claimed (see the reference in his 1982 book Social stratification of English in NYC, that I believe (oh) tensing and raising is more extended among Italian Americans than among Jews, who, in turn, have greater (aeh) tensing and raising (I may have this backwards). This is a difference in degree and not in kind since both groups share these same two traits, you just tend to find one stronger in each group. He says nothing about the Irish.

Third, it ignores the fact that the really prominent three way distinction is between Whites, Blacks, and Latinos, as if the latter two didn't exist or didn't at least speak their own varieties of NY English.

Let me say this. If this article is to serve as a reference, standards must be maintained in terms of claims. Holding a simple impression, belief, or opinion is not enough to publish it. You don't have to be a sociolinguist to publish here, but you should take the trouble to research and understand what it is you are publishing or the whole enterprise is little more than a discussion group.

Feel free to comment directly to me at mnewman@qc.edu

The three accents of New York are considered the New York Irish accent, New York Jewish accent, New York Italian accent. This is what the standard by most New Yorkers. If their are other accents from different groups, then it is not apart of the long-time standard, and it could be said that then they do not qualify as New York accents. 65.42.87.249 03:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, Irish, Italian and Jewish are the three most prominent distictions of the New York accents. 65.42.87.249 03:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

It is not a belief or impression or opinion, it is the standard used by most New Yorkers. You want to exclude it just because you don't think it's actually true. But it isn't your place to remove information that is accepted as true by the majority, just because you don't think it's true. You want to do original research, and wikipedia is not supposed to have original research. 65.42.87.249 20:14, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Science is not decided by popular opinion. If it were, then, we would have to consider creationism as a valid explaination for the origin of humans, or at least intelligent design along with evolution. That's what many people think. It comes out in poll after poll. Moreover, in the case of American language, we would have to say that the Midwestern accent is the best and that New Yorkers speak badly. That comes from the research of Dennis Preston at Michigan State. In any case, what evidence do you have that your three-way distinction is popularly accepted.

It is also not true that I think the three-way distinction you posit as true doesn't exist. It may very well. It is just that making the claim as factual is problematic because the evidence for it isn't there. If it were, you could cite some differences, which you can't, except for Labov's finding, which I acknowledge. Just as importantly, the terms you use are vague and unscientific. What do you mean "the standard used by most New Yorkers." I have no idea what you're talking about.

It is true that I am doing original research, of course. That's my job, but I am not posting my original research in the article. I do that at academic conferences and publications. When I base statements on my data, I refer speculatively and not as a publication. Most of this has previously been presented at conferences anyway. Again, contact me directly. If you're interested enough in the topic of sub-racial distinctions to comment on it, then do some original research and add to the knowledge base, which can merit getting into the article. But don't just make unsubstantiated claims. This isn't about posting beliefs as facts. mnewmanqc

As, but as I said, Wikipedia is not supposed to have original research. 65.42.87.249 00:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

So you want to remove all information on the facts on the Three Main Accents of New York City? You don't want to do only original research, you want to change past history and what is accepted. You shouldn't use wikipedia as a way to change things and rename stuff. 65.42.87.249 00:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

You really showed your ignorance with the Trump and Guliani comment. To speak an New York Irish accent, you do not have to be Irish-American. It's not about ethnicity, it's about the way a person talks. Colin Quinn is Irish, but he does not speak with an New York Irish accent, his accent is more New York Jewish.

You also say you do not think something should be included because of what the majority of New Yorkers believe, but what you want to do is put in what you believe. Why is what you, one person, not from New York, believe more important than what has been accepted by New Yorkers in New York City? 65.42.87.249 00:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear, 65.42.87.249: First, Of course you don't HAVE to be Irish, but it helps. If you're not, you're an exception; perhaps you grew up among so-called "Irish NY speakers". Second, Here's what gives me the right to make these changes: I am a practicing variationist sociolinguist, an expert. That's not a question of snobbery. It's just I have the training and knowledge base. I also care enough to have done the hard work to achieve that knowledge base. My being from NY or not has nothing to do with it. (It happens to be the case that I am.) Third, the problem isn't whether what you are saying is true or not. The problem is that you are making claims without any evidence to support them. It's just your opinions and impressions, which may or may not be shared by some or most other NYers. Fourth, your charging me with publishing original research here shows you don't know what research is. It involves an entire project with method, data, analysis, conclusions. It is banned here because an encyclopia should not be a way of short-circuiting the peer review process used for making theoretical or factual claims. Finally, I have tried to compromise with you and acknowledge your interest by leaving the people you cite in the article, but not going beyond what can be reasonably established as factual. I would wish for the same respect.

You aren't being reasonable because you want to remove all information on the New York Irish accent. I suspect your removals of the information is not based on any reason except for anti-Irish prejudice. 65.42.87.249 15:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Latino national heritage distinctions
I eliminated a claim that Puerto Ricans and Dominicans speak "NY Latino English" more frequently than other national heritage groups. In my research, I have collected over 50 hours of recordings from teens of all main Latin American national heritages, and I have looked for distinctions based on national heritages of speakers. While I expect I will eventually find some, I haven't yet. Instead, the main distinction seems to be based on, sucbcultural affiliation, that is Hip-Hop versus Skater versus non-affiliated. What I think may confuse people is that social class differences are also prominent. If you have any questions, contact me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnewmanqc (talk • contribs) 14:08, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Your study sounds interesting. There are distinctions. There's a lot that goes into the sociological aspect of it, that mainly being foreign versus American born. This is by far, the biggest indicator, into the idea of the dialect. For Puerto Ricans, being that teens, who you've studied, virtually none, in the New York City, are from Puerto Rico. Most of their parents, unless they had them older, were not born nor raised in Puerto Rico either. For the few Puerto Rican's that do live in New York, usually for business reasons, just like a Mid-Westerner taking advantage of their privilege to live within any state, they usually range to upper-middle class, as do many transplants. And although I don't know why, but many speak English and do so completely speaking General American, with no accent. The subcultural aspect, mostly Hip-Hop which you've noted, is just a thing of youth. For what ever reason it is, younger people like to put on acts. It dies away as they get older, and suddenly people grow up. Well, at least most do.

I think social class distinctions do exist, but you have to ask yourself a couple questions in trying to understand this. One, who did the original Latin American immigrants learn English from? Did they know it before coming here? Or did they learn it from American's? Two, if they learned it from American's, who were those American's? Was it the education system that taught them? Ultimately, for their children, it was the education system, as well as their parents, although they have known less. Typically though, as the years and generations go on, two things happen for Latinos, and notably Puerto Ricans because of how long they've been significantly populated in NYC. One, admixture, whether it's with European-Americans or other Latin-American immigrants exist. Whether people like to admit it or not, intermixing between nationalities can destroy those identities. People won't be taken seriously if they think they can go around actually identifying as Puerto-Rican-Dominican-Italian... Yeah, that's someone's background, but no one can hold that many identities. The more time goes on, the more that happens. Usually to teach a language too, it requires more than one parent's attention. Without the language, much of the culture dissolves. Identity and language are brother and sister, and without the language, you'd have a vague understanding of poetry, culture and may not even be able to comfortably travel to the place.

When speaking about social class distinctions though, what lingual variations may there be? Education would surely be one. Typically though, the more time a family's had in this country, the more mainstream they become. Unlike most other immigrant groups, and even American women of the time, most Puerto Rican women worked when arriving to America. When going back to Puerto Rican's though, most came from the late 40's to the early 60's, before the term Hispanic formally existed in the U.S. government, when many programs couldn't have been aided. So they had to earn their success themselves, like previous immigrants, whether that be Italian's, Polish, Irish or who ever. In many ways, that's why Puerto Rican's resemble more of the historical traits that of than other Latin American immigrants. Before the 70's, or perhaps even the 80's though, the importance of the Spanish language in America was no where near where it was today. So by that, more than a full generation of American born Puerto Ricans had lived through an era when the Spanish language wasn't necessary or much of a bonus. Back 20-30 years ago, Dominican's had this. This is why you see many of their first generation American-born children speaking Spanish, unlike the first and second generation Puerto Ricans.

Because Puerto Rican's have been in the country longer, and because they're a very assimilated group, unlike newer immigrant's, who'll eventually get there, they hold less of an accent. Puerto Rican's didn't just make an impact on immigrating to New York City, but they did on the entire metropolitan area, much more than any other Latin American group. Many of the places they live in, whether it be Long Island, or parts of Connecticut, are very affluent, and they'll resemble the characteristics of those general populations. And generally speaking, the affluent usually loses their accents quicker than others. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC).

South Jersey
I added the section on South Jersey based on my own experience. If anyone has any questions, please ask them. I'll do my best to respond to questions on this discussion board.199.173.226.232 19:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)LT

South Jersey comments
I've always felt that the article should not combine NJ and NY. Only the area of NJ that borders on the city, including mainly Hudson and Bergen Counties, is part of the NYC dialect region. Most dialect maps (see Labov's home page) place South Jersey as related to the Philadelphia dialect area. Labov himself is from North or Central NJ, and certainly has neither a New York nor Philly accent and has claimed at least orally that his dialect area is distinct from both, in particular in its absence of a short a split. I don't think there's an article yet on Philadelphia English, but there should be. Any article on English in New Jersey would have to state that fact, but it's an unnatural marriage to put it in with New York. -mnewmanqc

I completely agree with you.199.173.226.232 14:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)LT


 * As a resident of Bergen county, I think that we should only point out specific cities as having a "New York" accent. Places like Fort Lee may have a strong accent, whereas towns like Wycoff, Franklin Lakes, Oakland, Mahwah, Ramsey, etc have a fairly neutral, standard American accent.  The Book "Do You Speak American?" by MacNeil and Cran divides New Jersey into 3 accent zones: a very small area bordering NYC as the "NY accent", the south with a "Mid-Atlantic" accent, and the rest of the state with a normal "Northern" accent,

Brooklyn
IS this the classic, working class, Brooklyn accent? As mentioned above, not all people with a New York accent sound alike.

Brooklyn response
Is what? I'm not sure what you mean. The article covers the entire range of the speech in the NY Dialect Region, at least briefly, with a concentration on the White version.

mistaken for mobsters?
A recent addition states: "As a result, many people are wrongly mistakened for mobsters when they talk with a New York accent"

This seems to me way over the top. If no one can justify it, I'll eliminate it in a few days.

Origins of the accent
Could the fact that New York City had a strong Dutch speaking population in it's early history affect the way New Yorkers speak? Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.112.47.92 (talk) 21:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

It makes sense, because there are variations between this and other places. People usually try taking a simple way of looking at things, crediting Irish, Italian, Jewish and other European immigrants for the construction of the accent. If that were the case though, why doesn't a place like Scranton, with a heavy Irish, Italian and European descended population, have a similar accent? The Dutch did have an impact on the historical accent, as did the English, but the groups who were native English speakers, which would include Irish, arguably had the largest impact of all. Jewish culture is also well integrated into the city, but that shouldn't be confused with accent, because there's no such thing as a Jewish accent, nor would that mean it's a New York accent either. Typically, that'd just be stereotypical stuff you see in movies. TomNyj0127 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC).

Manhattan Accent?
Re: Accents by burough... My great-grandmother had what I was always told was an old "Manhattan" accent. Where the steriotypical Brooklyn Accent has the word "third" pronounced toid (or thoid), she pronounced it softly as thuurd. This could be a generational variant, as her children do not have this accent (their's is more the "educated" accent, or lack of accent, as they all went to private schools). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.112.47.92 (talk) 21:30, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Manhattan Accent Response
There is a kind of urban legend that some people can tell what block or at least what neighborhood someone's from by their accent. If you listen to the Labov interview on NPR (link at end of article) he talks a bit about that and claims that there are no differences. I'm more cautious in saying that there are no demonstrated differences. In any case, the 'toid' pronunciation was always highly stigmatized, and one possibility is that she avoided that pronunciation as such. Maybe she had ambitions to move up socially. It's hard to say.

Obviously, that's a legend, but nowadays, there's no accent in particular that's prevalent in Manhattan, since the borough is dominated by young non-New Yorker's, in it's American population. There's also many foreigners, like other parts of the city, but most of the population that existed generations ago, doesn't exist much anymore. Certainly not the working or middle class populations. The only people who could afford to live there are wealthy people. It's been a while since there's been a prevalent historical population in Manhattan, below 100th street, for a long time. You'd probably have to date back about 40-50 years, just to see something. There may be a few extremely rich families who are exception to this, but they're not numerically significant to the general population, nor would they likely have a distinctive accent. TomNyj0127 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC).

Jewish language
The following section is bordering on the incoherent, and I don't have any idea how well founded it is in fact. The number of Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews in New York seems rather small in terms of the overall popuation (as opposed to, say, Bukharan Jews). Would the contributors please clean it up, find some support for what they're saying beyond they're mere beliefs, or eliminate it? They could also remove the non-standard grammatical forms and make the wording flow better. Something should be added about the prominence of yiddish words in New York English (like shmear, shmuck and others), even among non-jews.
 * I second this: Yiddish loan words are prevalent in and near New York City. It isn't all that unusual to hear people from other ethnic groups use expressions such as Oy gevalt! or shlepp.  Durova  20:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There also seem to be a lot of Russian loan words in New York dialect, probably by way of Russian-Jewish immigration. "Oy" means "ouch" in Russian.  The stereotypically Jewish "my son the doctor" seems to come directly from the Russian: "moy syn - vrach".  "Kasha" is the Russian word for any kind of cooked (boiled) grain or cereal, or specifically buckwheat.  LADave (talk) 16:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Section needing fixing
"Many Sephardic Jews, particularly those of Spanish and Portuguese descent, used to speak the same New York dialect like Ashkenazic Jews did. Nowadays, these Sephardic Jews spoke New York Latino English as mentioned above, like all other non-Jewish Spanish speaking people did. However, the New York Latino English that these Spanish Jews spoke is a bit different than Spanish Gentiles. For Spanish Jews, they combined Judeo-Spanish and traditional NYLE into one. Mizrahi Jews did speak another variety of New York dialect. That dialect is a combination of Judeo-Arabic and traditional Brooklynese."

Hearing no response, I decided to eliminate it. I hope that we won't get into a situation of people just it back. More generally, my hope is that editors won't just add uninformed impressions. You don't have to be a linguist, but please do a bit of research before just adding something.

Southern Connecticut?
Is there any information about the accentation of southern Connecticut? In the urban areas like Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, and Waterbury, you can hear a New York accent. Interestingly enough, similar to what was mentioned in the article, certain characteristics of these accents can also be divided by ethnicity as well (Italian, Spanish, Polish and Irish). In greater New Haven, there are even suburban varieties of these accents in places like East Haven, West Haven, Derby, Naugatuck, Valley.

Southern Connecticut answer
The Phonological Atlas of North America, has some data. (http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html). It's based on telephone surveys. The accent is not historically identical to NY though NYers moving there could change it. Some features however are related. There is a short-a split in some areas, though again the pattern is not identical to NY.

Generally speaking, much like New Jersey, Connecticut's a large state, and in different areas within the state, the accent varies. Even in southern Connecticut, it largely varies. While that part of Connecticut may be the closest part to New York City, it's also one of the most industrialized, densely populated and expensive region within the state, arguably more expensive than most of New York City, especially in terms of real estate and property taxes. This part of the state has historically has had declines in populations, particularly cities, like New Haven, so for those reasons, the impact of New Yorkers, or other out-of-state residents, would be much less in this part of the state of Connecticut.

Also, while you've said New Yorkers could have an impact on southern Connecticut, it can be argued that Connecticut can have an impact on the New York dialect, because many people from this state move to New York City, particularly Manhattan and close parts of Brooklyn, which is home to lots of non-New Yorker professional American migrants. Honestly, an effect that could go undermined is that of those who commute to Manhattan for work, which plenty of southern Connecticut do. However, the problem with that is that those who do commute there are disproportionally middle-to-upper middle class, so like many New Yorkers, they tend to move away from accents, and tend to move towards General American. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC).

response
Many features are shared with the NY accent. In blue collar cities in west Conn, like Bridgeport, many Caucasians (usually Italian) speak a variant of the New York dialect. In greater New Haven, as mentioned before, many do speak with a New York "twang", so to speak. E.g. Awls, Youse, Cawfee, and other stuff mixed in with that god-awful Central Connecticut accent (which, by that way, should not be grouped in with any New England dialect because it sounds NOTHING like the way people in western Mass or Vermont speak. Albany, however, I am unsure of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.124.49 (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

''Many features are shared with the NY accent. In blue collar cities in west Conn, like Bridgeport, many Caucasians (usually Italian) speak a variant of the New York dialect.''

First of all, I don't exactly know if I'd call the places you're referring to blue-collared cities. Even if that is somewhat the case, the truth is, the places you're likely referring to, are not very European-American. Secondly, in the case of Bridgeport, there are still plenty more European-Americans than Italian-Americans, even if they're one of the more significant groups. It'd make no sense to believe why people of Italian descent, many of whom are mixed anyway, would speak with more of a New York dialect than others. I don't know why you think that, but if there's some sort of evidence behind this, I'd be interested in seeing it. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added on 03:14, 19 February 2009 (UTC).

Youse

That's a New York twang? Honestly, that sounds retarded lol It sounds like someone saying the word you with the letter s. It sounds like something the guy Lazy Dude Sal would say from Futurama... Honestly though, living around, as well as working and going to school and college with people throughout the New York area of every background out there, including Italian, I'd never detected this. If a 20 year old said the word yous in public in such an affluent zone, especially in parts of Connecticut, they'd be humiliatingly embarrassed. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk)

I've been to Albany a few times, and although I don't know much, I've randomly called libraries, malls and what ever you can think of in Albany and it's area, and people there don't particularly resemble any accent, but if they do, it usually relates to what you may hear in western Mass or other parts of Upstate NY. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added on 03:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC).


 * Albany doesn't have the NYC accent—overall, it's part of the Hudson Valley dialect region, which may or may not be dialectologically the same as Western Mass and Connecticut (not enough research has been done to tell if there's a difference). The reference to Albany (and Cincinnati) showing influence from NYC is specifically with regard to the New York /æ/ system, which is very distinctive and unusual. Albany doesn't, however, demonstrate NYC dialect features in general (although apart from the /æ/ system, it also has a more NYC-like /ɔ/-as-in-caught than most places do). As for Bridgeport, I'm not aware of any research which has found any distinctive NYC dialect features in Connecticut except /ɔ/. AJD (talk) 05:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

macrosocial clean up
The macrosocial section had gotten quite messy, with repetitions and topics scattered around. There were also some impressionistic pronunciations "ball like bawl" which are contrary to Wikipedia style. So I cleaned it up to the extent I was able.

Al Michaels?
This article says Michaels is born in LA. However, his wiki page has him born in Brooklyn. I've changed this page to say "despite growing up in LA".

"most recognizable accent??"
I think that any US citizen not from NY/NJ or the South would call Southern American English the most recognizable accent... I've added a "reference needed" footnote, but really I think the text should be nuked. What do others think? Brianski 00:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"most recognizable accent??"
Southern American English is not a single distinct variety. There are a number of sometimes more related, sometimes less related dialects in the south. Also, the text says, "one of the most distinct," which is hardly disputable.

ahh, it didn't say "one of the" before, unless i hallucinated :) Brianski 13:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

You can check it in the history mnewmanqc

non-IPA and dubious assertions on origins
Before I get into a reversion war, I want to see if we get a discussion on two issues: The first is phonetic transcription:The Wikipedia style guide discourages the use of impressionistic pronunciations, such as "dem" "dese" and "dose" and "Joisy" and "Juzzy" which are currently in the article, in favor of the more exact International Phonetic Alphabet. In the next week or so I'll change the second pair. See below for the first one.

This involves unsupported claims. The recent edit added the claim for a Dutch origin for the fortition of (dh), i.e., [diz] (sorry, I can't figure out how to insert the dental subscript) for. The source cited is Robert Hendrickson New York Tawk. (Edision, NJ: Castle isbn: 0785815562). However, Hendricks cites Francis Griffith, a Hoftra University professor, as not accepting "the traditional Dutch derivation" for dese and dem in favor of an Irish origin (p. xvii). However, he doesn't say that he accepts a Dutch origin either. Unless someone comes up with better support for this claim, I'll delete it in a week or so. BTW, neither Griffith nor Hendrickson as far as I can tell is a linguist. Googling Griffith, all I get are secondary references. What was he a professor of? I don't know. Hendrickson is a popular author on language, which is fine, but he knows his limits and only distills secondary sources. Unfortunately, in this case he does not say who made the purported Dutch derivation traditional so we don't have any real support for what is made as a claim of fact in the article. Here's a rule of thumb, I'd propose: If you want to cite this kind of popular work, I think it's best to find the original citation that the author is using rather than citing that author as the authority unless the author is a real expert in the field in their own right, which does not seem to be the case here. mnewmanqc

Biased
Very biased article speaking not on every accent and spending too much of the article on very little used accents. 75.3.4.54


 * Please explain. mnewmanqc

"on line" vs. "in line"
I've noticed that the only people who wait on line rather than in line are from the New York City/Long Island area. Should that go in this article? dcandeto 23:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it should mnewmanqc

NY dialect in NJ
The Atlas of North American English shows NY dialect extending only into the Jersey communities bordering the Hudson, and this is my experience as well. Therefore, is there some grounds for claiming that it extends to Central NJ as a recent anonymous edit has it? I'll revert it in a few days unless I get some support for that extension. mnewman


 * I agree that it extends to Central NJ STHayden 17:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mnewman is correct. The accent of central New Jersey is not the same as that of New York (outside of Newark and Jersey City and the like), though it has some similarities. AJD 18:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was born and raised in Central NJ, Monmouth County to be exact, and nobody who was born and raised in Monmouth or Northern Ocean county speakes with a NY accent. Many people living here to speak that way but they are all transplants. Editcml


 * What parts of NJ are included? It currently says just Newark and Jersey City...; that doesn't make sense. how about "northeast NJ"? In any case I am glad we separated the New Jersey English as another page, easier to manage among other reasons. Spettro9 (talk) 19:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's really just along the Hudson river. When I get as far as say Wayne, it's already different. They have the same vowel in can as can't and don't glottalize the /t/ like NYers do. They even have signs in pizza places saying "sub" not "hero." Since Wayne is Northeast NJ, using that term is too imprecise. That's not to say there aren't transplants who have NY accents, but as far as I can tell, they're just transplants. By contrast, the Philly dialect region seems to extend into Southern NJ much farther. mnewmanqc (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Likewise to what you've guy's have said, there likely are transplants in parts of central Jersey, who are from Northern parts of New Jersey, but this couldn't impact the entire accent. Who ever would be living in these places, who aren't from there, would much more likely be from another county in New Jersey, rather than New York City though, because it's closer, their state and they're prone to paying the ridiculous taxes. For what it's worth though, not everyone in Northern NJ counties speak with an accent. In fact, typically, only the counties closest to Manhattan do, like Hudson and Bergen.

When you're speaking in reference of the Philadelphia dialect, it tends to be much less distinctive. The Philadelphia dialect, spoken through most of Southeastern PA and the Delaware Valley, is very similar to Delaware, Maryland, DC and the Mid-Atlantic Region. Much of central Jersey, and other Northern New Jersey counties, that aren't as close to Manhattan, like Morris, more commonly speak General American or English you'd typically here from a non-distinctive part of the North, such as Connecticut.

I have to disagree with one thing you've said though. I've been through lots of places in North NJ and few place say hero. In fact, in most parts of North Jersey, pizza places call it subs. They understand what hero means, as there are customers who may travel in from New York to eat there, but heroes are not commonly said in any part of New Jersey. In Southern New Jersey, as well as much of Central, particularly Mercer Co., south and central western Monmouth, southern Middlesex, eastern Hunterdon and southern Somerset county and at least nearly half to three-quarters of Ocean county say Hoagie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.230.11 (talk) 07:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Long Island Stronghold?
I didn't want to change it, but I'd like to know where the claim the that the New York Dialect is strongest in Nassau and Suffolk County came from. I tend to think that this is a false claim, but if it isn't it needs to be referenced. Also, I was wondering if there should be a small section involving the differences between North Shore and South Shore accents.


 * I don't think there is any source at all for any internal regional differences within the NY Dialect region. I would say this. The NY dialect is largely associated with White speakers who have roots in the community. These speakers are concentrated in certain areas. Bill Labov told me that in his experience, any White ethnic community in the NY Dialect Area preserves this speech, in the city or in LI. So perhaps the assertion that the dialect is strongest in LI needs to be modified. It also follows that, because there is no documented difference between north and south shores, I think there is no justification for a section on such differences. mnewmanqc 16:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I kind of figured that after re-reading the article. Thanks though.

Add a vocabulary section?
Having moved from Long Island to Ohio, I made up a list of some words I noticed were different in each region. Here's my my list:

NEW YORK    vs.     OHIO: Oaktag vs.             Posterboard, Looseleaf vs.         Writing paper, Streamers vs.          Crepe paper, Soda vs.              Pop, Lollipop vs.          Sucker (I've been told Lollipop is the large spiral kind), Sneakers vs.          Tennis shoes, Pocketbook vs.         Purse, On line vs.            In line, Hero vs.               Sub (sandwich), Sheetrock vs.          Plasterboard, Spackle vs,          Mud, Shoulder (of road) vs. Berm, Couch vs.              Sofa, "Where are you?" vs.   "Where're you at?", "This needs to be fixed." vs. "This needs fixed.", Caramel vs.            Carmel (pronunciation),

There's more, but I think some is just local stuff from the city I live in.

I love to debate with people here about how Ohio doesn't have an accent. If you look in the dictionary, Mary, Marry and Merry have different pronunciations. Here, they say all of them like "Mary".

Fun stuff... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skacire (talk • contribs) 13:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Upstate?
While this article does a fair job of metropolitan New York City speech (I have some reservations), there's a lot more to the state than just one city and its suburbs. This could be interesting to study: the Rochester-Syracuse region sounds pretty close to Midwestern speech to my ear, but perhaps there's a Canadian influence near the Erie Canal and a New England influence near Albany.  Durova  20:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not what this article is about. The accent of the Erie Canal region (including Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica) is pretty well covered in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift article. Albany basically falls into the Western New England dialect but with heavy influence from NYC; there's no article yet that that fits well into. AJD 21:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Ajd but would go further. The problem in this article is the inclusion of two unrelated topics: The various NJ dialects and the more homogeneous NYC dialect region. It should be split, but I have no idea how to do that or request that it be done. The inclusion of NYS, which is totally heterogeneous as Ajd says, would only make matters worse. It would be an arbitrary inclusion of two states. NYS makes an even less coherent potential article than NJ because of the inclusion of Western NY and Syracuse in the NCS phenomenon. A good idea for an article would be Hudson Valley dialects which would include Albany. I do not have the expertise to write it. mnewmanqc 12:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think anybody yet has the expertise to write an article on Hudson Valley dialects: the research simply hasn't been done for any city between Albany and New York. One of my medium-term research plans is to gather some data from Poughkeepsie, though. AJD 19:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say that, although I agree it wouldn't be very complete. The area does appear in the Atlas of NA English, though, and I think a short article could be written. I'm thinking of gathering some data from the Catskills next spring, though as part of a class. Any analysis would just be undergrads doing research. I don't have time myself. mnewmanqc 23:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Eh? The only Hudson Valley city with any data in the Atlas is Albany. AJD 01:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I relied on my memory of what I saw, but I'm not surprised. The assumption is, I think, that metropolitan areas form centers for spreading changes, and that more rural and outlying suburban regions tend to fall into their area of influence. That happened on LI with respect to the city, but I don't know about Poughkeepsie. That said, he's been interested in the region historically because of his hypothesis that the NCS is the result of a koinization of Western NE and other forms of short A split coming out of downstate, which then moved westward with the settlers. I'll try to remember to ask him at NWAV in November about it. mnewmanqc 13:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Right: Poughkeepsie is just far enough away from the city to be believably outside its area of influence; and I believe it has certain ties to northeastern Connecticut, as well. And note how rapidly the NY phonology drops off once you get into northern New Jersey. So it's really an open question what we'd expect to find in Poughkeepsie: the NY system unchanged? The Albany system, with a basic Western New England pattern but with an overlay of some salient New York features? A WNE system with less New York influence?


 * In any event, if you're interested in the koineization hypothesis for the origin of the NCS, you should totally come to my talk at NWAV. The new problem, of course, is if the WNE nasal system and the NY split short a koineized to produce the NCS, why is there no trace of the NCS in Albany? I'm thinking the answer must come down to the different between transmission and diffusion, but I want to steer clear of just-so stories here. AJD 15:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Barring a conflict, I'll be there. mnewmanqc 21:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Split Article
Unless I hear a compelling objection from Wikipedians, I will split the NYC dialect section and the NJ section into two separate articles. As I have said earlier, the two deserve their own separate treatments. mnewmanqc 22:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Dialect or accent
Surely the title of this article is wrong. There's almost nothing in it to suggest that New York has its own dialect as such. I propose it should be renamed "New York accent". --rossb 23:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Dialect is the usual term used in sociolinguistics. Accent is a vague term, referring to phonological aspects of a dialect. So even if there were no lexical and syntactic characteristics of NY English, then dialect would still be a better cover term. In fact, NY dialect has syntactic and lexical characteristics, such as those listed in the article. mnewmanqc 12:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dialect robustness
I reverted the change from "most European Americans" to "some European Americans" and added a qualification. The reason is explained in the introduction to Labov, Ash, and Boberg's Atlas of North American English, on the robustness of dialects among those brought up in a given speech community. The perception that NY dialect is not spoken by a majority of European Americna speakers in the NY metro area is likely to be caused by in-migrants, particularly in Manhattan. While their offspring may also not really be dialect speakers, they also do not form anything like the majority. mnewmanqc 15:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a doubt
New Yorkers don't pronounce deep O's like Londoners do. This article says that nought and not are pronounced with vowels 7 and 5 (of IPA chart of standard Englsih). BUT i would say that nought, caught, not and cot are all pronounced the same with a wide "a" (vowel number five of IPA chart for standard Englsih). And, words such as long, wrong, boss, and dog are pronounced with a extended vowel 6 (from IPA chart for standard Englsih).

And, the only region in the USA that still uses the deep O (vowel Nº7) without an R (like in core) is the southern area around florida and it is used only in words like dog, long and boss. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Undress 006 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Please use IPA rather than or in addition to the chart nuymbers and grapheme references because they're a lot more transparent. In any case, nought, caught are certainly not homonyms with  not and cot in NY, although since ''nought" isn't part of many people's vocabulary, it's not a great example. The article follows Labov's various descriptions as well as the current TELSUR atlas, as well as what's evident to anyone in the city. The low back merger is avoided by the low back chain shift, involving the tensing and raising of the former open o as described in the article. mnewmanqc 20:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

european americans
the article says that its spoken by european americans. why would that matter if you were european or not, if you were raised in new york. i dont see why someone who is algerian, nigerian, or turkish that was raised in new york wouldnt speak with the same accent as anyone else that was raised in new york.


 * European American has become the "term of art" in social sciences for White. The US has a history of racial dialects distinguishing ethnolects based on African Americans, European Americans, Latino, and Native American forms presumably because of past and present patterns of racial segregation and highlighting of racial identity. Check out Purnell, Thomas, Idsardi, William, and Baugh, John (1999) "Perceptual and Phonetic Experiments on American English Dialect Identification. " 'Journal of Language and Social Psychology 18 10-30 if you want actual evidence for these differences.  There is reason to believe that there are distinguishable  (East) Asian American forms too. Of course, not everyone who is a member of a racial group speaks the corresponding ethnic dialect, but the dialects are associated with the group, to the extent that people can usually make racial identifications based on voice alone. mnewmanqc 14:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

i dont doubt there are african, asiatique american ways of speech, etc. however, i have seen enough people who are black, puerto rican, and chinese talk with that same bugs bunny accent to say that the accent is not restricted to only the whites. i would argue that anyone who grows up in new york can have that same accent. we are not talking about the ghettos like you see in france or germany. here we are talking about the new york accent. but if you want to talk about that then we can open up a whole other discussion about segregation in the u.s.


 * Where does it say it's "restricted"? If it does, that should be changed. There certainly are non-Whites who speak with the classic NY Dialect. Take for example, Dominic Carter on NY1. He has all the features as far as I can tell. Then again, there are Whites (and Asians and others) who speak NYLE and AAE. There are also NYers of all origins who have no NY features. It's basic dialectology that not everyone with identity X speaks the dialect associated with that identity. However more do that don't, and more importantly, the respective racial dialects began with, and remain centered on and associated with the respective racial communities even by those who do not speak them. The mention of the association is valid and the claim that most Whites speak that way. If you avoid the racial association based on the exceptions, you miss those social facts. Again, I refer to you Baugh, and his various works on linguistic profiling (or just google "linguistic profiling," which shows the real world consequences of racial dialects in the US.

It just should not say it is spoken exclusively by one racial group.mnewmanqc 23:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Notable speakers
Do we really want a section on famous dialect speakers? There was one a while back that got huge, and then someone sensibly edited it into oblivion. I suggest we do the same thing again before it gets out of hand. mnewmanqc 15:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Examples are particularly useful for foreign speakers coming to terms with different American dialects (it's easy to underestimate the interest in this for many students of English). If we restrict it to its current size with editorial supervision, this will be useful.  Alternatively, we could dedicate a separate page to such a list, although I would rather we avoid that for the sake of the reader's convenience.
 * Dustin Hoffman doesn't have a NY accent. He had one in "Midnight Cowboy" but it wasn't authentic.  (Notice the way he pronounced orange)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.127.37 (talk) 00:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Macrosocial cleanup
The article states the New York City Area dialect only covers Newark and Jersey City. This is about as wrong as you can possibly get. While Northeast New Jersey for the most part is rhotic, Northeast New Jersey and New York City residents use the same slang, the same greetings, and a lot of the same basic pronunciations. This comes from experience having grown up in the Paterson area and moving to Brooklyn.

The Northeast New Jersey accent is the New York City accent, just a little thinner.

vandalism
The page is being repeatedly vandalized by someone, I'll assume a needy kid--not that many great editors are teens, but...--with an IP address in Cherry Hill, NJ. I hope he (again I'll assume it's a boy) just wants some attention. If so, here it is. In any case, it's getting a bit tedious. I'm wondering if we should request that the page be temporarily put on registered user only restriction. Any thoughts? mnewmanqc 01:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Christopher Walken
He knows how to tone the accent down (because he's a great actor), but even then he still has traces of it (dentalization of d's and t's, etc.). 208.104.45.20 22:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup needed
This article needs cleanup. In places it reads as if people arguing different points of view have added to it, but their contributions have not been well integrated. PatGallacher 01:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I was particularly thinking of passages like this: "Now, the most secure strongholds of the New York dialect are arguably the suburban areas of Nassau County, western Suffolk County, Westchester County, northeastern and southwestern Queens, and Staten Island, although some strong New York dialect speakers remain in urban sections of Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan. This may be true, although no published study has found any feature that varies in this way beyond local names." PatGallacher 11:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

internal coherence
Yes, that's probably right. I'll look through and see about what changes are needed in the next three weeks, unless someone gets to it first. I think I remember a long evolution in this particular case in which the last sentence originally referred to supposed (though undemonstrated) internal variation in the basic White dialect, which then got deleted without the cautionary final sentence. That sentence now looks like it refers to ethnic differences, which is not what it was meant to do. So, I guess it needs a clean up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnewmanqc (talk • contribs) 13:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Accent vs dialect
There's a conflation of the words "accent" and "dialect" throughout the article, insofar as they are used here to mean the same thing, which they aren't at all - "accent" being how the words sound, and "dialect" being what the words are, ie in their differences between regional and standardised language (linguist Max Weinreich wrote: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."). It's entirely possible to speak, for example, the British dialect of English in a New York accent (simply by saying "trousers" instead of "pants", "lift" rather than "elevator", etc) or Argentinian Spanish in a Castillian accent. Being from north-east England, I speak in a Geordie accent regardless of whether I'm speaking standard British English, American English, or my local dialect.


 * Not really. Dialect includes accent. You can't speak a British dialect of English in a New York accent, just because a British dialect will involve a totally different accent. Accent is just the phonology and phonetics, while dialect incorporates all the regionally-varying linguistic features. AJD 17:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * ________________________________________


 * From the website of the University of Wales Institute of Higher education:


 * "Accent


 * This is the term used to describe the way people pronounce words. Most British English speakers have a regional accent. The place they live influences the sound of their words.


 * Dialect


 * This is the term used to describe the differences in vocabulary (the words) and grammar (the way words are put together into sentences) between different versions of a language.


 * Dialects belong to particular places and are usually spoken with the accent of the same area. For example, Scouse dialect will be spoken with a Liverpool accent, Geordie dialect with a Newcastle accent."


 * From the website of Oldham Sixth Form College:


 * "Your ACCENT is connected with the way you pronounce words.


 * For example:


 * * You might pronounce some letters differently from others in the country such as "a" in "bath" or "grass"
 * * You might not make the sound of some letters on the end or beginning of words such as "h" or "g" in "hat" "harm" "going".


 * But DIALECT is connected with words and groups of words which are different in different parts of the country. Many dialectal words or phrases have died out now and are only used by older people.


 * For example what word do you use to describe a roll of bread which you might eat for your lunch?


 * * A roll?
 * * A barm?
 * * A cob?
 * * A stottie?
 * * A teacake?


 * It might depend according to where you are eating your lunch!"


 * And from the Wikipedia entry on the Yorkshire accent and dialect:


 * "Even relatively close places, for example, Leeds and Harrogate, a mere 13 miles apart, have distinct accents and even dialects, with Leeds accents tending to be very deep and gruff, compared to the generally posh Harrogate accent. Another example is the accent differences across Yorkshire over the pronunciation of the same dialect word for the narrow passage between terraced houses ("Jennel", "Jinnel", "Ginnel"), and the pronunciation of "over" ("ovver", "o'er")."


 * "Dialect" doesn't include accent in my dialect :) 217.42.161.239 21:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is going to infuriate you, but the quotes are not from sociolinguists and do not reflect how the terms are used in the field. I am currently at a sociolinguistics conference, and dialect includes phonology (accent does not really get used much) perhaps because it can easily get confused with stress and because dialect phonology covers the same territory. When I get home I will look up the term in a couple of sociolinguistics textbooks and provide quotes supporting Ajd's statement. mnewmanqc 12:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not going to infuriate me at all. If I'm wrong (which is looking rather likely...), I'm more than happy to hold my hands up and say so. But that's how educational establishments in the UK use the terms. But then a fifth of our school-leavers are illiterate. 217.42.161.239 12:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. Here are the quotes I promised. From Walt Wolfram and Nancy Schilling Estes (2006) American English': Dialects and Variation Blackwell They appear to try to distance themselves from the term "accent"and rarely use it. On p. 313 they say "'Peter Strevens, in the article "Standards and the standard language (1985), separtes ACCENT, which refers to features of phonology, from other levels of dialect." From Meyerhoff, (2007) Introducing Sociolinguistics (Routledge) on p. 27 says When linguistis talk about accents, they are referring only to how speakers pronouonce words, whereeas they use dialect to refer to distinctive features at the level of prnoounciation and vocabuarly and sentence structure. All three are very well known in the field. Peter Trudgill, also very well known, has a dictionary of sociolinguistics, which I have but cannot find. So I'll leave it at that. mnewmanqc 12:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I teach accents and dialects for the stage, and the working distinction that I have always used (and one that is supported in the literature) is that a dialect is a regional variation on the same language, where an accent is the influence of a foerign language on another. Thus, in the case of English, you have generic American English, U.K. English, London Common, New York, American Southern, Upper Midwest, etc. which are all dialects. It includes pronunciation and changes in lexicon, such as calling a water fountain a "bubbler". Dialects are primarily vowel-based, although some consonant changes exist, as well. On the other hand, you have French, German, Italian, Japanese accents, which are the influecne of those various foreign languages on English. Accents tend to be consonant-based and typically do not include changes in lexicon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.107.16.50 (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, which are the citations from "the literature" to support what you claim and counter the citations I made in my Oct 2007 post?mnewmanqc (talk) 12:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

clean up
I tried cleaning up the page. If it meets people's satisfaction we can remove the "needs cleanup" whatchmacallits at the top. mnewmanqc 23:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Strongholds
"Now, the most secure strongholds of the New York dialect are arguably the suburban areas of Nassau County, western Suffolk County, Westchester County, northeastern and southwestern Queens, and Staten Island, although many strong New York dialect speakers remain in urban sections of Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan."

This list is too specific to be unsourced, and leaves out lots of places (Southern Brooklyn, Northern New Jersey, perhaps even Miami Beach :P), but wouldn't it be easier (and more accurate, since a list like this is always subject to revision, and correction) to state that wherever white native New Yorkers live in the region, the dialect is more likely to persist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.247.133.98 (talk) 05:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure, make the revision, but it does have that hedge word "arguably." mnewmanqc 13:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I would argue from personal observation that southeastern Florida, between Fort Lauderdale and Boca Raton, west to the Everglades, is a stronghold, as many native white New Yorkers retired there and live in reclusive communities -- especially Jewish-Americans and Italian-Americans. Bellagio99 (talk) 01:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The Diphthong in "Life"
I have noticed that some New Yorkers pronounce the diphthong in "life" as [ɑɪ] rather than [аɪ]. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It's part of a general process of diphthong shift. It takes place in various English dialects. See Trudgill's 2007 New Dialect Formation. He doesn't mention NY, though. mnewmanqc (talk) 02:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the realization of as  is actually a well-known, established feature of the NYC accent, although it might be receding. See Labov et al., p. 234.  Jack (Lumber) 19:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why is it not in this article then? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Joe Pesci and Other New Yorkers
When Joe Pesci says "fuck" (as he often does), it seems like he pronounces it [fɔk] rather than the typical American [fʌ̟k]. I was wondering if it is common for New Yorkers to use incorrect vowel sounds in certain words. That pronunciation doesn't follow any of the rules given in this article. So what I'm saying is it's incorrect even by New York standards. It also seems that phonemic [æ]-tensing occurs more often in his speech than how often the "New York phonemic [æ]-tensing rule" says it is suppose to happen. I was wondering if this rule is truly accurate for everyone. He also pronounces the vowel sounds in words like "food" and "home" differently from many Americans (probably the same way they are pronounced in Boston). Another thing that I have noticed in the speech of many New Yorkers (not residents of Upstate New York) is that many words that would be pronounced with [ɑ] in General American speech are instead pronounced with [a]. The word "sock" could be pronounced [sak], for example. This should not happen nor should the pronunciation of "fuck" that I mentioned above or the "too frequent [æ]-tensing", because the Northern Cities Vowel Shift does not occur in the New York City metropolitan area. However, these things do seem to happen. Also I have observed that the second vowel sound in the word "because" is at least sometimes pronounced differently than how many Americans would pronounce it. I am not sure of the exact vowel sound, but I know it's different. There is one consonant sound that seems to differ from the speech of most Americans as well: the "s" at the end of "because" and other words seems to become voiceless at times (even though it is a voiced "z" sound for many Americans). 208.104.45.20 (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've also noticed sporadic backing and raising of (^), which seems lexically specific. I know of no work on that. As for the rest, I haven't heard any of it. mnewmanqc (talk) 02:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Joe Pesci from New Jersey not New York. He speaks with the Jersey accent but people outside the area can't tell the difference. MrBlondNYC (talk) 11:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I hate to break it to you Mr. Blond, but there is no difference between his accent and a New York accent (You should know, you're from there). The place he is from is so close to NYC that it doesn't matter. It's the same dialect. All cities in the NYC metropolitan area speak the same dialect. I know people from certain areas like to feel unique linguistically, but they're not. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey Mnewmanqc, here's a video that might show you some (but not all) of the stuff I was talking about: Sesame Street - Casino - Robert Deniro & Joe Pesci. Feel free to laugh, but keep in mind that it is Joe Pesci's (and Robert Deniro's) real voice. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hate to break it you, but there is a difference - slight as it may seem - between a New York and New Jersey accent. Your link doesn't work for me but I suggest you read the works of linguist William Labov and learn the difference. Your claim that "All cities in the NYC metropolitan area speak the same dialect." is simply untrue. The NYC metro area includes parts of Connecticut and Pennsylvania, areas known for their distinct accents. This is as silly as saying all English people have the same accent when in fact there are different accents in different areas. The differences may seem slight to you but they are differences meaning not the same. And yes, I know because I'm from there. Where are you from? MrBlondNYC (talk) 03:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The United States, dumbass. That link wasn't for you genius. Actually, you need to read the works of William Labov. Don't talk down to me. I read his shit all the time. Your statements show me how ignorant (and foolishly arrogant) you are. Read this. And here is a map of the NYC metropolitan area. I don't know where the hell you got Pennsylvania from (especially considering that you are from NYC, and you should know these things). You overestimate the size of the NYC metropolitan area. You want it to be larger than it really is because you think you're the center of the universe or something. I don't know why. But anyway, if there are differences between Joe Pesci's (he's an actor, by the way) speech, and the speech of NYC, let me know about them. I think that it couldn't be more obvious that he speaks what is called the New York dialect. And also explain the differences between the multitudes of dialects that exist in the NYC metropolitan area. Compare and contrast them, if you will, otherwise don't talk shit. And by the way, that is not even close to being as "silly" as saying all English people have the same accent. I would never say something that stupid. The differences between the various English accents are often much more pronounced (not to mention there are several English dialects) than those between the accents of North America. That was a horrible analogy. Please stop exaggerating. Being a fan of The Sopranos doesn't make you a linguist. Thank you. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, you didn't even bother to carefully read both articles you cited! Did you even bother to read the article New York City metropolitan area or look closely at the map or even move your eye a centimeter to the right and read the infobox? It clearly states that certain parts of Connecticut and Pennsylvania are part of the area. It's right there in the map you obviously didn't bother to look at. When I was a kid, it was called the "Tri-State Area", meaning three states: NY, NJ and CT. Somewhere along the line a small part of PA was also included. Maybe this is what Miss South Carolina was trying to explain about Americans who can't read maps. You are hilarious! Also, in the Labov article it says: "There is a tiny portion of eastern New Jersey, along the edge of the Hudson, where you can hear Brooklynese, but by the time you’re in Paterson you’re well into what Labov calls the Jersey “nasal system.”" Again, your statement "All cities in the NYC metropolitan area speak the same dialect" is incorrect according to Labov. Labov points out the difference in the dialect of majority of eastern New Jersey which is part of the metro area. They have the more nasal Jersey accent making pronunciations different. Nasal like Joe Pesci and - that's right - Tony Soprano. I never said Pesci's accent was vastly different as he is from Newark which is probably part of the "tiny portion" Labov mentions. But his voice is clearly from the "Jersey nasal system". Labov's determination of the difference between NYC and NJ accents is even cited in this very article. I stated before that it may be a slight difference, but it's still a difference. Your anger is just ridiculous. I didn't curse at you or call you any names in my response. We can disagree strongly and debate but insults are not necessary and not welcome on Wikipedia. Please read Civility. Thank you. MrBlondNYC (talk) 05:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, please try to keep the discussions civil, and that includes everyone. FYI, when the term "nasal system" refers only to the tensing (and raising) of short a (ae), using Labov's old variable notation. In a nasal system, only those words before nasal consonants are tensed and raised, can, lamb, etc. NYC and Northern Cities, among other dialects, have a different system. mnewmanqc (talk) 14:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Casino--that was a fuckin' great movie. Anyway, the "short-o" phoneme seems to be split into two subclasses--a front o and a back  o :
 * ''You said I'm bringing heat on you? I g o tta listen to people...
 * ''I don't know whether you know this or n o t, but you only have your        fucking casino because I made that p o ssible.
 * ''You could have had the food and beverage j o b without going on television
 * See Labov, Ash, & Boberg, pp. 234f.
 * The "wedge" (as in the f-word) seems to be just a little retracted, compared to the "general American" one; given that  is higher than in General American, the wedge has some room to move. (That's my theory, at least.)
 * And... let's try not to make a big fucking spectacle of ourselves...  Jack (Lumber) 19:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to make a "big fucking spectacle" of myself fucking Jack. I was just wondering why some of these things weren't included in this article. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Blond, you still didn't thoroughly explain the differences between the various dialects in the New York MSA. I know more about maps than you will ever know. If you ever want to take some sort of geography challenge against me I assure you I will kick your ass! The metropolitan area (MSA that is) of New York includes one fucking county of fucking Pennsylvania. Big fucking whoop! I don't give a shit about civility on fucking Wikipedia because I will never see any of you guys in real life. How do you know if I'm angry or not? These are just words. I could just be trying to piss you off the entire time. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what "part" means. "Part of PA". I never claimed the number of dialects in the area compare with the sheer number in the entire country of England. Again, my point was that your statement of "All cities in the NYC metropolitan area speak the same dialect" is incorrect because there is more than one dialect in the area. This is according to Labov, other linguists cited here, and any rational person with an ear and experience in the area. Since I would never claim to be as articulate as the great Mr. Labov, especially not being a linguist myself, I'll let the following articles complete with cites of Labov's works help you learn about the other dialects in the NYC metro area: New Jersey English (North Jersey), Northeast Pennsylvania English (Pike County, PA), New England English (Western CT). Since you've already read the works of Labov and hopefully by now you read the article you cited carefully, you already know the difference between NYC and Jersey dialects so you're already halfway there. By the way, WP:Civility is an official policy here and violating it can get you banned. Please don't let that happen as we would no longer be graced with your presence. So, about that "geography challenge". At the playground! 3:00 PM! By the monkey bars! Be there! MrBlondNYC (talk) 04:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You're talking as if you're somehow above the subject of geography. As if you've already mastered it. As if it is somehow juvenile, when it's really not. You just don't want to admit that there is a subject that you suck at. Seriously, I would hand your ass to you on a platter. Hell I bet I know more about comedy and Star Wars than you. You never told me your age anyway. I could be older than you. I'm probably more mature than you (in real life, not in this fantasy world we call Wikipedia). Go masturbate to Uhura. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No it's not geography that is juvenile. It is you. In the words of our friend Joe Pesci "I'm finished wit dis guy." MrBlondNYC (talk) 05:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Experts may claim that it's the same "dialect" throughout the NY metropolitan area, but most ordinary residents can tell just by listening if you grew up on Long Island or The Bronx or Short Hills. Thefactis (talk) 04:42, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

European American to white
The recent changes and complaints about the article seem to be motivated mainly by a decision to change terms from European American to White. I don't have time now to revert all these changes, but I will justify the reversion here and respond to the comments. Virtually all the phonological features listed can be found in papers by Labov listed at the end in addition to my own short popular article also cited--I've never tried to hide my identity. The same can be said for the exclusivity of the dialect to European Americans. Not everyone may like the term European American, but it is the predominant term used in social science research, at least sociolinguistic research, on the East Coast of the US (the term Anglo used in the Southwest, has obvious problems.) I will therefore revert the changes in the next few days if someone else doesn't do it first. That's likely because there are are a number of other sociolinguists who monitor this page. It seems to me that we can probably tighten up a number of references and perhaps eliminate some observations that are not represented in the literature in the morphosyntax section (which I suppose amounts to original research). However, as for the rest I don't see any reason for the tags on either original research or cleanup, and I think we can remove them. If someone has an objection, I suggest they make it here rather than getting into a silly editing war. mnewmanqc (talk) 02:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * When I hear "European American", I think immigrants. That's the only problem I see.  "White" would be more appropriate.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Nevertheless, that's the most academic term probably because it forms a pair with African American, which doesn't mean immigrants from, say, Ghana or Kenya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnewmanqc (talk • contribs) 14:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * True, but for some reason when I hear "European American", I think immigrants. And the term "African American" could include people from Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, and Egypt.  So I don't know if it is necessarily accurate either.  Not all Africans are black, but black is always what we mean when we say "African American", even though it shouldn't be. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * All US terms for racial groups are problematic. We use African American to mean slave descendants not immigrants from Ghana, say, to say nothing of Morocco. We use Asian to mean East Asian, but not, say, Turks or Indians. Latino means someone from Spanish speaking American countries and ambiguously Brazil, but not say, Quebec, which speaks just as Romance a language. Therefore, the use of European American is perfect because it puts Whites into just as confusing a pattern. But hey, it's better than Caucasian.  ;)mnewmanqc (talk) 15:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey I agree with you. It's all so confusing! I would personally rather be called white though. It works for me. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 22:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, how about Caucasian? 12.0.16.162 (talk) 19:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I am going to assume you're being facetious. Thegryseone (talk) 21:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The most proper thing to say would be European-Americans. Being apart of a dialect or accent is something that's usually traced through families. Saying white could include Latinos of European ancestry, as well as Middle Easterners, newer Eastern European immigrants and their children and North Africans. It's not explicit enough. New York City has a significant enough white Latino population to cause to much confuse in that. Most Latin American's in New York speak a mix of a mild New York accent, a supposed New York Latino dialect (usually amongst working class), but General American is most prevalent and that's what's become most prevalent amongst not just Latino's, but European-American, West-Indian, Middle Eastern and Asian-American populations, for all of whom were born in the U.S. TomNyj0127 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC).


 * Actually, people usually get their dialect and accent more from their peers in school than from their families. AJD (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

return of removed part of the editing history of the talk page
The talk page is designed to track discussions of the article. It's not helpful to remove large sections of it because doing so only invites the rehashing of settled issues. mnewmanqc (talk) 15:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Why does Paul sound like pole?
What makes Paul sound like pole to my ears in the New York dialect? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The vowel phoneme in Paul is higher and backer and rounder in NYC than in just about any other American accent. This puts it very close to [o], which is approximately the vowel in pole in most American accents. AJD (talk) 05:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Does Paul have the same vowel phoneme as talk in the New York dialect? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 05:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. AJD (talk) 14:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just an addition to Ajd's comments: The /o/ (as in pole) and the /ɔ/as in Paul and talk are not really merged in NYC. Perhaps, the pre-liquid contexts of Paul and pole aid in the perception of similarity since this context does tend to favor this kind of merger, as it does in front vowels, jail and jell in many English dialects.mnewmanqc (talk) 20:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

vowels
I have fixed a recent addition by 208.104.45.20, who helpfully filled in the absence of any reference diphthong shift, something that appears as a complaint earlier on this talk page. This was done by adding a particular example, which I used under a more general comment, and gave it the appropriate name. The same contributor also said that NYers have near monophthongal /o/ and /u/ and provides a reference in this change explanation that I can't follow. Could you please provide it more clearly. I checked out the varieties of English page and didn't see it. I've got plenty of recordings, at least insofar as /o/ is concerned, I've heard it in some Latinos, but I haven't noticed it in young whites. Also, I'm not sure for the reason of the change of heading to "Vowels and Diphthongs". "Vowels" encompasses "diphthongs." Finally, why not get yourself a username? They're free, and it's makes your contributions seem a lot more serious as well as making it easier to refer to you. I don't mean to be snarky here. I appreciate your contributions, but in some cases, it might be better to try them out first on the talk page because things get technical fast, and even some of who publish in this area make occasional errors or omissions. Look how we left out diphthong shift all this time.mnewmanqc (talk) 21:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello. First off I'm going to say you are a sociolinguist and I am not.  I have respect for what you do.  Hell, I'm thinking about going in that direction myself.  Feel free to challenge any of my edits.  Just keep in mind that I might argue with you (I have a tendency to do that if you haven't noticed).  Sometimes I just get pissed off.  I'm still having a difficult time grasping the importance of reliable sources on Wikipedia.  You could write something like, "Pizza Hut serves breadsticks" and if you couldn't find a source for that information, it can be removed.  Real life isn't like that.  That's why I have trouble when people ask me to find sources that say the sky is blue.  Enough digressing.  I like the dialect articles on Wikipedia to include as much information as possible.  As you probably know, as time goes on, the New York dialect is becoming more mild.  Many young whites don't even have non-rhoticity in their speech.  The near monophthongal /o/ and /u/ thing I was referring to was probably inaccurate.  A better way of describing it would probably be that the nuclei of /oʊ/ and /uː/ are significantly less fronted than in many American accents, like in the Boston accent.  You know, like when a Mafia member with a stereotypical New York accent says, "How ya doin'?" or "I gotta go".  But unfortunately, "you know" doesn't cut it on Wikipedia.  I imagine, and I'm sure you'll agree, that this is more of a conservative trait.  I highly doubt any young white speakers would pronounce those vowels in that way, unless it were in a jocular manner; however, you might here it in the speech of older whites.  That whole "Vowels and Diphthongs" thing was just a stupid mistake.  I wasn't thinking when I did that.  I am well aware that diphthongs are made up of vowels, but I just tend to think of them as separate.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 23:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we all have issues with what is or is not cited in the literature, particularly when it's pretty transparent. Of course the best source for any vowel is ANAE. I don't think it's something to worry about too much. As for /u/ fronting, that's pretty common, but as in some other Eastern dialects, the nucleus is central with a back glide. I have no evidence of /o/ fronting, unlike say Philly. mnewmanqc (talk) 01:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean fronting, it's more like the other way round - making it similar to the corresponding Italian vowels. I guess it's backing and possibly further rounding, if anything.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 19:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Non-Advanced Speakers
If the [ɔ] vowel is [ʊə] in the most extreme New York accents, then what is it in not-so-extreme New York accents? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 17:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably [oə] or so. AJD (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose Deleting List of Notable speakers with a New York accent
Without any notice or use of this Talk page, two Users have first moved the List of Notable speakers with a New York accent to a separate page, and then proposed deletion. The Users make factual errors (Bronx different from Brooklyn), and as both are from non-English speaking countries, appear generally unknowledgeable about the subject. Nor do they appear to have read this main article. with the great deal of work that has gone into it. (One deleter's comment was:"What a LOAD of crap".

Hence, I have strongly opposed their efforts to do so, and I invite other interested Users to address this situation.

Here is what I wrote on the Notable speakers and AfD talk pages:

Strongly oppose

1. This article has been a long standing section of the New York Dialect article (several years?), and no one has ever proposed deletion of the section before.

2. Hence, I was surprised when first the section was precipitously deleted and then when it was cut and moved to a new article -- without any discussion on the Talk page, as WP:CIVIL would suggest.

3. I continue to believe that it makes sense as part of New York Dialect, because it provides exemplars of notable people (in the public eye) who speak New York Dialect -- giving indications of pronunciation, rhythm and other subtleties. However, perhaps a cross-link to a separate article is ok.

4. There is a major factual mistake in Ecoleetage's account. The user thinks that Bronx speaks differently than Brooklyn. However, a good deal of scholarship by Prof William Labov and others that there is a single New York dialect, predominantly spoken by white New Yorkers. This is extensively discussed in the main New York Dialect article. I am surprised that User Ecoleetage did not read it, and I am surprised as a non-native speaker of English (from his User page), that he is so ready to make pronouncements about such matters. I would hesitate to do so about Spanish pronunciation. The fact that the User did make this mistake shows the need for the main article and the exemplifying list of notable speakers.

Bellagio99 (talk) 14:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I am indifferent as to the list of people included in the article. I see the point of both sides. However, no major change like that should have been made without a discussion here, and if that had happened I doubt there would have been a consensus or even majority to either delete or move. I missed the reference to internal differences because I was traveling, and I support Ballagio's refutation. mnewmanqc (talk) 17:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Long Island
Hey everyone,

I live on Long Island, and I think that the LI accent is it's own accent totally separate from that of NYC. Whenever I go to the city, It's pretty obvious that I'm not from there. and when I here someone from the city speak, I can tell that there not from LI. I think Wikipedia makes the mistake of lumping Long Island into the "Areas near NYC that might as well just be a suburb of NYC" category. True, a good amount of LI is suburban, but just because of that we don't act and talk like our counterparts over the Nassau/Queens line. I feel that the LI accent should have it's own page, if not, a section of this page should be devoted to it. I am not an experience Wikipedia user, but If i gather enough material to write such an article, I may do just that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.238.241 (talk) 02:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Before you add your impressions, you need to find citable research supporting what you say. If you look at any dialect atlas, including the Labov et al. you will see that the NY dialect region extends into Long Island but does not cover it completely. Any area of LI that is mainly populated by NY transplants (such as Nassau and part of Suffolk) evidently is mainly part of the NY dialect region. That is what the article says. Historically, eastern LI is connected to New England, and it has a different accent. What should be clear, if you find research on this topic, you should put it on a separate article because this one is on NY dialect. mnewmanqc (talk) 08:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless I'm missing something, the Labov et al. atlas says nothing about Long Island (unless you count Queens and Brooklyn)—it's only got data from the city. I've long been hesitant about just saying in this article that the NYC dialect area extends into LI for just that reason; do we have any citation for it? AJD (talk) 05:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You're probably right. I don't have the ANAE anywhere near here because I'm away for the summer. However, I must have seen older traditional dialect maps somewhere with a line right through the center of the island, north south of course. I suppose I confused them. Anecdotally, it's pretty obvious to anyone who goes there that the dialect region extends east from the city right into Suffolk to area populated by White flight migrants. For purposes of the article, the problem is how to create as well supported an account as possible. I think this fall, what I can do is get a student or two to find everything there is to find on the question and fix the article. I doubt that there is any recent (i.e., post-White flight) research on the eastern border of the dialect region, and in any case it's going to be a bit nebulous, but as I said there are old dialect maps.mnewmanqc (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My .02, from observation, but not hard data. LI is a mixed dialect population. Some emigrees from NYC (and their kids) speak NY Dialect. A lot of LI'ers don't. The Island has developed its own culture (and dialect) that is somewhat independent of NYC. I believe this holds for Nassau AND for western Suffolk Cty, as housing costs have led NYC emigrees and their kids to go further afield for affordable homes. YMMV. Bellagio99 (talk) 14:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, this sentence should win an award for pompous absurdity: Before you add your impressions, you need to find citable research supporting what you say. Please just look at that a moment. And then look up the word impression in a dictionary if you need to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.62.47 (talk) 06:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Re-merged list of notable speakers with NY accent
Originally, the list was part of this page, and then was abruptly moved. It has now been shortened and extensively referenced. The list and the main NY dialect article cross-support each other, and they are reunited, after a Merge notice was up for quite a while, and evoked no comment. Bellagio99 (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Formatting notable speakers
On my 24" widescreen, at least, the new formatting left 3 short columns and one very long column. I don't want to undo, because there's another edit right after that. But could someone who knows formatting fix. It's really ugly now. Thanks. Bellagio99 (talk) 19:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

''[Next 2 items moved by Bellagio99 and slightly edited from User talk:Bellagio99. More germane here.''


 * Hiya Bell! Sorry for the mess I made... I didn't know the proper way to fix it, so I dropped a line at the Village pump for the right way. Another user was so kind to help a hand, but now I can't see the right halve at all! Ofcourse, I replied at VP. Just so you know. Kind regards,  Soetermans  |  is listening  |  what he'd do now?  20:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Soeter, I reformated into 3 columns, as 4 was squished and ran many names onto a second line. Guten nacht.(I could also sign my name Wassenaar78, with fond memory.) Bellagio99 (talk) 02:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Denzel in the NY accent list?
Denzel Washington sure is gorgeous, well-spoken and Notable. (I saw him before Condi did.) But I wonder about his listing in the New York accent list, as the main article makes the point that African-Americans from NYC typically speak with a different accent. I have never heard Denzel speak with a NY accent, perhaps because he is so well trained in standard American English.Bellagio99 (talk) 21:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * my feeling is that he doesn't belong, like you, not so much because of his status as African American but because as an actor he doesn't speak with NY Dialect features. In any case, a good example of an AFrican American who clearly does have these features when he speaks in public at least is Dominick Carter of NY1. An African American who mixes NY dialect features with AAE is Nas. I have no citations to that effect, just what I've heard. mnewmanqc (talk) 15:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, read the cited articles. They're not there for nothin'. One says "...his ever-present New York accent..." The other says "That hint of an accent is there, betraying his New York roots -- when he says it, "The Great Debaters" becomes "The Great Debate-uhs". Secondly, there are other African-Americans on the list who are also cited. MrBlondNYC (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Look, you asked a question about how I felt about Denzel as a representative on the list. I gave the answer based on my perceptions of seeing him in movies. What a popular article says about his accent is not particularly relevant because they don't have much of a sense of what NY dialect is and they won't distinguish between it and the type of features, such as tensing and raising of (oh)_ which are pretty widespread and cross ethnic lines. That's an essential problem of lists like that. I will refrain from having any more to do with it and stick with the linguistic features. mnewmanqc (talk) 18:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't ask any question and I didn't start this section. MrBlondNYC (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Tracy Morgan and Chris Rock are a few names of black guys that mix NY dialect features with AAVE that come to my mind. I hear them use the distinctive New York /ɔː/ vowel occasionally.  That does indeed seem to "cross ethnic lines".  The problem is, however, that non-rhoticity is a feature of both AAVE and the NY dialect, so that example you cited above really doesn't tell us anything.  Pronouncing The Great Debaters as "the Great Debate-uhs" is something that both many black people across the country and white New Yorkers do.  Thegryseone (talk) 03:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Short A Split
This is not well explained at all... so does the NYC accent have it or not? Spettro9 (talk) 19:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. AJD (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Backing/Rounding of PRICE and Fronting of MOUTH
On p. 286 (or maybe 287) of A Handbook of Varieties of English, it says that the backing (and maybe even rounding) of PRICE and the fronting of MOUTH are more prevalent among young, middle class people. Maybe I'll add that. Thegryseone (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I say go for it, although that's not my anecdotal impression.mnewmanqc (talk) 14:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)