Talk:New York City Subway chaining

IND Zero Point?
I don't understand the description of the IND zero point; in which direction is the line drawn from W 4th station? Specifically, what's the chaining number of W 4th? --SPUI (talk) 22:35, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BMT Chaining Table
Great work on the table, Larry!!

Here are some observations:
 * We need to distinguish between historic and current issues, especially which parts of chaining lines have been abandoned or changed. I know this is much easier said than done.
 * Line A - The info given is historical. Line A now is in two sections. The first section is from 57th Street to south of Prince Street. The second section runs from the middle of the Manhattan Bridge north side to Stillwell Avenue.
 * Line C - Lower level of 9th Avenue is still chained C. It is not abandoned, it just doesn't see passenger service. The structure from Fort Hamilton Parkway to Ditmas Avenue is demolished. The original Line C ended at the curve into West 8th Street station.
 * Chambers Street chaining zero - we should really show two different entries. It would be better if the zero location was described as Chambers Street (for Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridge routes) and Park Row for Brooklyn Bridge'''.
 * Line H - Historically this began at Chambers Street and zero was Chambers Street. The last time I rode these tracks I didn't check the chaining stations. This should have been chained to the 57th Street zero, but I don't know this for a fact.
 * Line K - This began at the eastern end of Park Row, not Sands Street.
 * Fulton Ferry Line - this began at Fulton Ferry and ended at Kings County Junction, east of Sands Street station. It was chained from Park Row, then backwards from KC Junction.
 * Line L - chaining ended at the junction with Line J and Broadway and Lex.
 * Line M - began at Sands Street upper level, not Park Row. The current Line M begins at the junction with Line J east of Broadway-Myrtle station.
 * Line N - began at the junction with the Myrtle Avenue Line at Hudson Avenue (not a station).
 * Line P - no longer exists. It is now Line Q end-to-end.
 * Line Q - now runs from Eighth Avenue to Rockaway Parkway. -- Cecropia 05:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Handling chaining junctions
This section is certainly informative, but I have a few concerns about it, which is why I've added a cleanup tag:


 * Lack of any references (how can one verify that this is all correct)?
 * Inconsistent terminology with rest of subway articles. For instance, BMT Montague Street Tunnel Line, in capitals, suggesting that this is a line that exists; but in fact, on List of New York City Subway lines, there is no such line. Perhaps there should be (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Subway), but at the moment there isn't.
 * If "Reverse tying" is important, an example from a line that still exists would be preferable to an example from lines that no longer exist.
 * Heavy use of "we" should be reworded (see WP:MOS).

Again, I wish to stress that I found this very informative, and am casting no aspersions on the effort. Marc Shepherd 16:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

About Chaining Zero Edits
Having ridden 1 trains through the South Ferry loop, and noticing signal numbers, I noticed that the MV chaining zero is definitely not at 96th Street as it was before my edit. If it were, the signal numbers would be MUCH larger than they are. The only image I could find is this one I found on NYCSubway.org. The gap filler signal, 102 PLAT/GF A, is basically signal 102 MV. Track plans show that, indeed the MV zero is located just south of the Bowling Green station (at about M33). R36 12:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Also from the track plans, I've corrected information about the World's Fair Line and IND E. This image shows about where the change of zero occurs. As for IND E, E 733+15 (tied to IND A) is the same location as E 934+97 (tied to IND D). R36 13:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

IND Line B
IND B is tied and reverse tied to IND A at JAY street, NOT W4th. At W4, B2 966 is roughly a 100 feet north of A2 976. The other point I'd add is that IND B has three north ends. B1 and B2 end at the merge with D3 and D4 respectively immediately south(west) of the 53/5th Station, B3 and B4 end at the merge with A1/3 and A2/4 respectively, immediately south of the 59/8th station, and B5 and B6 end at the start of T1 and T2 at the 57/6th station. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 18:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh? You have a source for that chaining? Acps110 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

For this one, I do not have a published source other than just going to both West Fourth Street and Jay Street and viewing the signal plates. Signal diagrams make this clear, but I don't believe those have been made public, so such would not really be verifiable. I could cite the chaining marks- they fairly clearly label the chaining, but I honestly have no idea how to properly make such citation. This entire page has simply been made by observation, so I am just correcting prior mistakes based on observation. Perhaps I could make a bulletin board post somewhere to provide something to cite, but of course, that is less than ideal. Either way, W4 as the tie point for IND B is uncited and verifiably wrong, so that statement should be removed regardless. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

http://images.nycsubway.org/line_diagrams/line_6thave_w4th.jpg This diagram makes it clear that W4 is not the location where A and B are tied together. Looking for something besides observation for Jay now. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 22:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Signal Diagram MW7-B-778-SL should make everything clear. Unfortunately, it is not posted on NYCS.org. The diagram above however clearly shows that it is not at W4. I'm going to revert to my old statement but tag it with citation needed. One of these days, I'll compile and somehow publish station locations according to chaining, and points of line merges and such, as time permits.98.14.158.206 (talk) 22:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Second Avenue Subway (IND Line S, BMT Line G)
I want to say that IND S is tied to Line T at the intersection of 2nd Avenue and 63rd Street, but this is just after messing around with the ruler tool on Google Earth. I also want to say that points along BMT G tracks 3 and 4 are 100 more than the distance to the zero point (i.e. where A3 and A4 have their zero point, G3 and G4 have a point labeled 100+00). This is after looking at Joseph Brennan's Abandoned Stations entry for Lex/63rd and seeing that the west end of the station, as shown in the diagram on that page, lists G39 as the western end of the station, but that point is labeled in the G139 range in the actual station. Can anyone verify? R36 (talk) 18:28, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

IND D Tying Point
 This appears to show IND D Tying to IND A at Chaining point A 1058, at 36th st/ 8th Ave. The Lower Level is Track D3. Maybe the article is correct though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captian Cavy (talk • contribs) 05:43, 11 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Track D3 south of the 50th Street interlocking no longer exists; it was permanently removed from service to allow the 7 extension to 34th Street-Hudson Yards to cut through the IND lower level. Regardless, IND-D still ties to IND-A. R36 (talk) 00:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)


 * But, the point is, does IND D tie to IND A at 1058+00 or at 1080+00? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captian Cavy (talk • contribs) 18:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The only way that would be relevant is if D3 had independent stationing between 34th Street and 50th Street. Diagrams make no such indication that this is the case, so any point between A-1058 and A-1082 could be the tying point for IND D. R36 (talk) 21:04, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Far Rockaway chaining
IND chaining does not begin at Far Rockaway. About 1986 I documented chaining by taking notes while looking out the front window of trains. I used mostly the numbers on signals. At that time Far Rockaway ended at F940 tracks 1-2, and Rockaway Park ended at F861 tracks 3-4. Tracks 3-4 tied from 1-2. The numbers decreased as it went north. The Hammels Wye junction signal was at F766, and the lowest I saw was F441 where the track leaves the former LIRR to enter the ramp to the Fulton Street El. F441 seems to be about the same distance off K as the K550 I noted on the Lefferts branch. East of Euclid Ave station, K465 and A420 were at switches close together. The total distance to A420 (approximate) is 584, that is, 499 (F940-441) plus 85 (K550-465).

The table here puts chaining zero at Long Island City station (very likely on the original railroad routing via Glendale), instead of at Far Rockaway. I think that works with the chaining I noted in the 1980s.

The newer chaining starting at FA0 Far Rockaway would reach FA174 at Hammels junction, with Rockaway Park F79 to the same F174, and then the old F441 signal is now F499. Why they undertook the expense of changing it beats me. Reversing does make it run south to north like the rest of the IND-- except for K which is right between F and A (unless that's been renumbered too). For fun, note that continuing the classic route A IND numbering down from A420 would have put Far Rockaway at minus 164!

FWIW I recorded West Fourth Street upper level as A969 to A976, i.e. the nearest signal at each end. JoeBrennan (talk) 16:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

BMT C
It's listed as the Culver line; should there be a note that those tracks are not used for regular service? or was the intent something else? Tduk (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your question. The table also includes former lines. Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 01:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was unclear, I was referring to this portion :

Tduk (talk) 04:29, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Possibly - I think we can mark both the north and south cells as "(abandoned)". – Epicgenius (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)