Talk:Newar language/Archive 2

Citation needed

 * The article says, "Hindi is not a mother tongue in Nepal". हो र ?  According to the 1991 census (via http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_country.asp?name=Nepal), Nepal has 1,70,997 Hindi speakers.  I assume they mean native speakers of Hindi; otherwise the number would be much higher.  This should be clarified.  69.232.222.19 07:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Hindi is my mother tongue...Bhojpuri /awadhi/maithili are dialects of Hindi
 * Thanks for the information. It must have been overlooked. It is now corrected. Hindi is very similar to Maithili, Bhojpuri and Nepali. So, people of cities esp in Terai understand it. I could not find any information on second and third language of Nepalese population. However, as far as I know, in places where there are no cable lines and Hindi channels, the comprehensibility of Hindi is low even in Terai region (however, this should not be confused with Maithili or Bhojpuri which are the dominant languages in terai). In Chure, Hills or Mountains, people almost do not understand Hindi outside cities. As you have mentioned, more than 80 percent of Nepalese population do understand Hindi by now thanks to Nepal Television's regular broadcast of Mumbai based Hindi programs (not a single program of Nepalese Hindi speakers have been telecasted in Nepal Television till date). Thanks again.--Eukesh 12:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * According to Maithili_language, Maithili is a language, not a dialect. Is the article incorrect? Kushal (talk) 00:10, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Reverts over dead link
About these recent reverts : both versions of the text being revert-warred over are ostensibly referenced to the same source, " Malla, KP. "Classical Newari Literature", allegedly last accessed (according to Nepalichoro's edit on 15 May 2015. However, that source link is now dead. Nepalichoro, please report here what exactly you found in that source and why you think your version of the text matches the source better than the previous one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You can find the text using the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20141018123512/http://www.kpmalla.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Classical-Newari-Literature.pdf Ogress smash! 00:28, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a "live" version here: http://www.avimalla.com/kpmalla/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Classical-Newari-Literature.pdf From what I can tell, the revert war is concerning supposed Spanish and Portuguese influence on the language? If so, this short pdf makes no mention of any European influence on the language. That doesn't mean there wasn't any, just that this document can't be used to support that fact. It does mention 18th-century Capuchin monks but doesn't say which language(s) they brought with them (anyway, this says their influence on language and culture was negligible). If there indeed have been Spanish and Portuguese influences on Newar, another source needs to be provided.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 03:29, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well the edits weren't about that, no: diff. The issue is that the editor moved and rewrote material that left out important information and also was awkward in comparison to the original. Ogress smash! 05:11, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. In that diff, though, the only information "left out" is the mention of English, Portuguese and Spanish. For the purpose readability and flow, I do prefer the "original". However, the claims of influence from English, Portuguese and Spanish aren't supported by the source given. Also, the sentence "Newar is a member of the Sino-Tibetan language family, but it has been influenced by languages belonging to other families such as Sanskrit, Nepali, Hindi..." should be rewritten anyway. Following the phrase "...belonging to other families such as..." one would expect a list of language families, not individual languages. I know the "such as" is referring all the way back to "languages", but as written, it doesn't feel natural.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 05:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone is opposed to edits, just the rolling revert war. Plus we need more sources. Ogress smash! 06:39, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

William Thweatt Talk, as I have been insisting before, to claim there are Portugese and Spanish influences is misleading and to have been clinging on to this without having any prior source to back your claims doesn't help your credibility at all. Nepalbhasa has some loanwords from English (hence roots from Latin, Greek, French, German) but almost non from Spanish and Portugese. However since the ancient and middle ages, there have been many many words directly borrowed from Old and middle Sanskrit, Prakrit and Maithili and modern languages like Hindi, Nepali, Urdu-Persian - all are Indo-Aryan languages.

And, Ogress smash! I saw the new edits made. I think it should be re-written to include the examples of the Indo-European languages. As you may have read it already in the source I gave you from (A Dictionary of Classical Newari by Kamal P. Malla, Tribhuvan University, Nepal) - "There are also about 3,100 loanwords from Indo-Aryan sources, mainly Sanskrit, Maithili, and Eastern Hindi, and also some from Persian-Urdu." Also stress on the fact that Nepalbhasa's underlying genesis is Sino-Tibetan roots, but thousands of years of influence from India and Indic (Indo-Aryan) languages have resulted in classification "that do not lend easily to a neat classification" (Areal Diffusion and Genetic Inheritance: Problems in Comparative Linguistics By Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert M. W. Dixon) Also this from (Newari Language and Linguistics: Conspectus, Tej R. Kansakar) "The classification of Tibeto-Burman languages and the placement of Newari among them, has been a matter of some controversy and that "the root and stock of Newari are trans-Himalayan and northern..." So much of the lexicon has been added on by later migrants from India that today, some people see the language as more of an offspring of Middle Prakrit more so than any Tibeto-Burman languages. (https://trekkingnepalhimalaya.wordpress.com/tag/newari-architecture/)

Also it would be wonderful if the fact could be stressed, that Nepalbhasa is a language that is among only 4 among hundreds of Sino-Tibetan languages to have a written literary history, thus making it a crucial language for overall linguistics study. (Newari Language and Linguistics: Conspectus, Tej R. Kansakar)

Check below for reference:

https://books.google.com.np/booksid=sPGe7aBSkpkC&pg=PA303&lpg=PA303&dq=newari+indo+aryan&source=bl&ots=YVfOKHH1f1&sig=ummeTfLCETuWYeFDNH6VBXReVRY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OGtsVYHZAtDiuQTGyoKIDA&ved=0CBsQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=newari%20indo%20aryan&f=false

https://books.google.com.np/booksid=kYJFPZ34ihMC&pg=PA383&lpg=PA383&dq=newari+indo+aryan&source=bl&ots=rWfZ00Ng_1&sig=D7iZCNtUAsQt9MG6bW_qOuF4Ywc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Km1sVZekKY3nuQSNz4HwCw&ved=0CCIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=newari&f=false

https://www.google.com.np/urlsa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEwQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thlib.org%2Fstatic%2Freprints%2Fcontributions%2FCNAS_08_02_01.pdf&ei=ERhtVZOvCo_o8AWFpIDwDQ&usg=AFQjCNG-od7Sex0Xs9I8Gn9iRNuVGS-s8w&sig2=vt7ZqDwjC-OLk6mzwGmIHw&bvm=bv.94911696,d.dGc

https://trekkingnepalhimalaya.wordpress.com/tag/newari-architecture/

Nepalichoro255 (talk) 03:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * , in good faith I'll assume you either misread my comments or have mistaken me for another editor. I haven't once made any claims about Spanish and Portuguese. On the contrary, I pointed out that the only source given for that sentence didn't support that claim. And that was the first time I had even weighed in on this topic, so I couldn't have been "clinging" to anything. As for my "credibility", well it may be wanting for several reasons, but this, I'm certain, isn't one of them.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 08:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I want to start by saying that in regards to the "as I have been insisting before" you wrote above, you have never yet written a single word on the talk page. So thank you for showing up, but you can't start mid-sentence like you were discussing things here. Also, none of those links work for me at all: they all come back as bad urls except Trekking Nepal, which is not a Reliable Source.


 * As for your suggestions: yeah I don't see any evidence of Spanish/Portuguese.


 * The idea that somehow Newar isn't ST anymore because of contact with the IA languages is wrong. I think you are misunderstanding the sources because first, that's not how languages work (English is still a Germanic language regardless of the fact that something like 70% of its daily vocabulary is French or Greco-Latin and Japanese remains Japonic despite having a similar percentage of Chinese loanwords), and second, that's not really the history of the language. Also, there are zero reliable sources that are going to claim Newar is derived from a Prakrit. That's just false. Not true. Only the most unsound sources would claim anything of the source. See above: that's not how languages work.


 * Also, the arrival of hardcore IA influence was the arrival of the Gorkhalis, which was practically yesterday in terms of linguistic depth. Ogress smash! 04:13, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, by "as I have been insisting before" I meant I had discussed it prior in my talk page. My bad I thought the discussion we had in my talk page was done here. Also, I have no idea why the links won't open. Maybe you can google it yourself as I have laid out the Book's name and its authors. Secondly, I have never claimed Nepalbhasa/Newar no longer is Sino-Tibetan. I am just saying that it has had various IA influences and to claim it is purely a ST language (as is the case with many other Nepal's ST languages who are indeed much more homogenous) is misleading and will be frankly confusing to general Newars and other Nepali people because a vast majority of the vocabulary and the structure of present Newar language is heavily derived from IA sources. General perception of Newar too among the people is that is rooted in ancient Sanskrit but later mixed with local more indigenous (ST) languages, when the opposite is true. That is why I would say it would be best if something like this is written - "Newar is classified as a ST language where its roots lie, but hundreds of years of co-existence from the migrants from south has led to a significant body of shared vocabulary from IA languages especially Sanskrit, Prakrit, Maithili, Hindi, Nepali." Again, saying Newari is "derived" from Prakrit or Sanskrit would be wrong I agree, but it would also be wrong if a special note isn't mentioned as to how greatly those languages have altered and modified the Newar language in its form.

Thirdly, IA infleunce happened WAY before the arrival of Gorkhalis. That was in the 18th century. The Gopalas who are seen as the first IA speaking migrant settlers came in 3000 years ago. But based on hard evidences, Kathamandu and Newar people had knowledge of Sanskrit and its later form (Prakrit) since the 3rd century CE after the advent of Licchavis where Sanskrit was the official language. With the Mallas] came in greater force of influence of Maithil language in the courts, since the Mallas themselves came from [[Mithila region and spoke Maithili. Malla rulers themselves spoke Maithil and made it their official and literary language. So whatever "hardcore" influence must have happened, happened during this 12th-18th century period. And yes, the advent of Gorkhalis is only yesterday in linguistic history terms, but the IA influences were very much active much before that. With the Gorkhalis came Khaskura (present Nepali) as well as influences of Magaric(ST) and English. Nepalichoro255 (talk) 08:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

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Restore as Nepal Bhasa
Lets get the thread back. I see a lot of "English-based" sources from white people are being prioritized in this Wiki when a huge number of ethnic population's mandate is being disregarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EkniBhattaKhas (talk • contribs) 12:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)