Talk:Newtown, New South Wales

Train Station
Well, the refurbished station opened today. How to balance the history vs the new one that is easily accessible? SchwarzeWitwe2 (talk)

Blue collar?
Newtown hasn't really been blue-collar for some time. Tarka

I've sent an email to the Sydney archives (http://www.sydneyarchives.info/) to asking them if they'd license some of their images under the GFDL. Tarka

To do
Some interesting things that should be detailed:
 * Conflict between the Unemployed Workers Union and the police during the Depression (I read about this in John Birmingham's Leviathan, but I don't own a copy, unfortunately).
 * It has been claimed that the inspiration for Dickens' Miss Havisham (Great Expectations) was a woman from Newtown. Probably not true, but an interesting story nonetheless. I will attempt to get something in about that. &mdash;Stormie 23:08, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * My grandmother used to come to Newtown (from Annandale) for dances during the Depression. I will try to get some more information from her. Shermozle

Possible Wiki Links
I am currently testing an automated Wikipedia link suggester. Ran it on this article, here's the output:


 * Can link blue-collar: ...w South WalesStanmore. Originally a blue-collar area, its proximity to the main Camperd...
 * Can link King Street: ...e number of cafes, pubs and resturants. King Street and Enmore Road, which branches away fr...
 * Can link North Sydney: ...s two municipalities had merged to form North Sydney three years earlier), but nothing came ...
 * Can link Anthony Albanese: ...Grayndler, currently represented by Anthony Albanese of the ALP, ...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these links may be wrong, some may be right; You can leave positive feedback or negative feedback; Please feel free to delete this section from the talk page. -- Nickj 06:52, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wow!
Guys and girls, this is just plain amazing work you've all put into this article! I am continually gratified by the effort that all the participants of Wikiproject Sydney Suburbs put into these articles. Makes me realise that I need to get off my butt and totally finish my Municipality of Strathfield article :-) So great work and keep it up. You guys rock! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:54, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sydney Park
This article looks fantastic! The description of Sydney Park confused me a little - is it actually part of Newtown or not? Alexxx1 (talk/contribs) 22:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah I think it is part of Alexandria. Regardless, great page. Takhisis 08:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * yes and Eveleigh workshops, more part of Redfern and suburb of Macdonaldtown. Michellecrisp 04:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to move Brickworks section to St Peters where it rightfully belongs.Michellecrisp 04:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Size
Wow - if general practice and precedence say if a locality in Sydney has an article this size - then every other locality in Sydney deserves an article this size as well? Surely there is need to edit rather than expand? SatuSuro 04:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * agreed, starting to edit. some information is about neighbouring suburbs. the entry looks too much of a travel guide to the Inner West, rather than about the suburb of Newtown itself. Michellecrisp 04:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Wires away section
is this really worthy of inclusion? doesn't seem notable by Wikipedia standards Michellecrisp 04:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Edits, article size, etc
Obviously this article still needs HEAPS of work. It has become very long -- most of which is my fault, hahah -- and undoubtedly needs to have some sections summarised and hived off into separate articles. I also think the Geography and History sections need to be tightened up and probably reorganised, and there are many repetitions that need to be eliminated, so I will attempt to get that done over the weekend if possible.

I'd really like to get more feedback, as this article is very dear to my heart -- I'm a 20+ year Newtown resident and LOVE my suburb -- but I think it does deserve considerable coverage because of its long history and the many unique features of this suburb and the surrounding area. Dunks 04:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Surrounding area info should be in entry for that relevant suburb, like I just found reference to a theatre in Marrickville. the Brickworks at St Peters is another example. As I said this is not a Travel Guide to the Inner West article. Wikipedia needs to be consistent between locality entries and is an encyclopaedia. If things are really notable like the history of Newtown then create a separate new article. That is fine within Wikipedia. Michellecrisp 04:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please consider putting more general Inner West info that is not solely related to Newtown in the Inner West entry. Michellecrisp 06:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think 42KB is too long for an article. If other articles are shorter, that is sometimes because there is less to say about some suburbs, but usually just because they haven't had as much work put into them yet. Of course, it is right to remove some of the opinions and info about the surrounding area from this article, but even this can be taken a bit too far, especially in the case of Aboriginal history. Cadigal was not the whole Sydney basin, and while the canal is not actually in Newtown, it's close enough to make the >8000 years figure relevant to the article. JPD (talk) 12:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The amount of KB is not what makes this article too long, is that it is too long to scroll through and read information in a presentable manner, not all the information is equally relevant or notable. For example, The fact is the information about Eveleigh was more detailed than the Eveleigh entry itself, even though the railyards are not even in Newtown! The article of a few days ago was too verbose, and too much minor detail, also contains too much commentary/opinion about the suburb's history. It's not encyclopaedic in parts. It needs to be in a presentable manner and try to fit this criteria. Michellecrisp 12:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure. I'm just pointing out that having inappropriate content that needs to be removed is not the same thing as being "too long". JPD (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite of 'History' section
I'm working on a fully referenced rewrite of this section, which I hope to have finished in the next couple of weeks. It will probably be a good deal longer than the current section, so think it would be best if this is hived off into a new article. I'd would like to know others' opinion on this idea please? Also, should there just be a "See main article" link where the History section is now, or is it preferable to include a short summary version of a few paragraphs length? Dunks 21:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I was going to suggest the current history section should be mainly put into a separate article too. you can use "see main article" and a paragraph or two summarising history in main article. cheers Michellecrisp 01:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Aboriginal people
i heard the term "Aborigine(s)" is a bit offensive so it might be better to use "Aboriginal people/person" instead? Siung99

My partner is an Aborigine and I can assure you that the term is not offensive. Useful alternative is "Indigenous Australian", which is less specific as it also includes Torres Strait Islanders.

In the 1960s and 1970s the term "Aboriginals" was used, but soon disappeared as it was widely regarded as a well meaning but superfluous term, much in the same vein as the American term "persons of colour" used up until the 1970s - an attempt to convey that the ruling white race was keen to be excruciatingly polite to the minority. Didn't wash !!!. Nothing wrong with "Aborigines", much as in the USA it is perfectly respectable, nowadays, to refer to "Black" people or the "Black Vote". --MichaelGG 09:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * use of Aborigine is considered offensive by many Aboriginal people, http://www.policy.unsw.edu.au/policy/racetrea.htm and http://www.flinders.edu.au/kokotinna/SECT02/PRO_TERM.HTM I believe the more correct term is Indigenous Australians. Michellecrisp 10:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "Australian aborigine" is correct, and "Aborigine" has been used correctly since the beginning of European settlement without any intention of offence. As I understand it, the sound of the word offends many less-educated aboriginal people who, not understanding is precise and scientific meaning, find it offensive simply because it ends in an "inny" sound. Slang or shortened words end this way, like "tinny", "barby" and "dunny".
 * So the adjectival form of the word came into use, incorrectly, as a noun, with people saying "I am an Aboriginal." instead of "I am an Aborigine." It follws on from the idea that the word "Australian" is used as both noun as in "I'm an Australian" and adjective as in "I am, ewe are, we are Oz-tray-lee-yun!" --Amandajm 00:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

some stoopid person
went off and left the inuse tag on this article .... no prizes.... --Amandajm 00:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

School Captian Reference
I removed this:


 * .>ref< In c. 1984 the School Captain at North Newtown Public School was the third generation of his family to be school captain.>/ref<

It was in reference to this sentence:


 * "The 1980s was the period that probably saw the greatest diversity in Newtown. At this time, cheap housing was still available and there were still among Newtown's population many descendants of the suburb's 19th century inhabitants."

Because the reference to the sentence does not make any sense, at all, what so ever. There is no mention in the sentence about School Captains. It is like talking about John Howard and putting a reference in (which is not an acceptable reference anyway) about how to grease the bearings on a ships propeller.

IP4240207xx 17:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I got this response:


 * Not too smart, Mate! The reference to the three generations of School Captains within the same family was what you call a Footnote. ie. It was a bit of relevant trivia.


 * Why was it relevant? Because the demographics of Newtown have changed radically. The fact that a particular child was the third generation of a working-class family (kept a pub as a matter of fact), whose Grandmother was born in Missenden Road and is still there 80 years later, is to be expected in a country town, but in the yuppyfied, gay, dinks suburb of Newtown, there are very few kids like him left. In the 1980s there were still working-class families. Now they are mostly moved out into Housing Commission accommodation, unless, like this particular family, they were not renting but owned a house. In fact, this family has been in Newtown long enough to have had one of the older streets named after them. Probably about 1870. There are very very few families in Newtown that have been there 100 years.
 * --Amandajm 09:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If you want to use statements like this:


 * "One such a row is in Hordern St. between Victoria and Prospect Sts."

&


 * "This doesn't need citation! The FACT is that most of the rows of Federation houses are single storey and provided their own evidence."

Maybe go, or get someone, to drive over there and take a photo of said buildings and post them on this talk page?

Thanks.

IP4240207xx 17:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Some of the points that you have made here are really quite unnecessary.


 * If many single-storey buildings of the Federation period exist in Newtown, and very few two-storey residence of the same period, then it really doesn't need a photo to prove it. The buildings exist.
 * Whatismore, they are quite unlike the Victorian terraces, so no-one with even a slight knowledge of style (say yer effridge real estate salesman) would mistake the period at which they were built.
 * This is not material that is likely to be challenged.


 * Moreover, the quoting of a precise block of terrace houses to illustrate a statement is a perfectly adequate reference. The reference is finite. The reference is a primary source.


 * Do we also need to cite evidence that King Street exists, that the Railway Station exists, that the Hub exists and that Enmore Road actually does branch off King Street? Do we need a citation that the spire of St Stephen's really is a landmark? And that the pubs really are Art Deco? And that many of the King Streets shops really were built in the 19th century? Or can we just presume that these things will go unchallenged?


 * The sort of things that need citing are evidence for the original use of the name Newtown, evidence that there was a courtcase over landownership, evidence for statement of the political reasons for the division of Newtown into two council districts, evidence that Newtown has a greater number of theatres per area than other parts of Sydney.

--Amandajm 15:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: I have just editted out of this talk page a huge wad of material copied from the wiki style manual. Given that he information is dealt with elsewhere, it seemed pointless to have it on this page. The editor placed the information here expressly for my benefit. I have just retained the editors comments with regard to my editting and know where to find the rest when I need to consult it.--Amandajm 13:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Citing sources
I am currently living remote from Newtown, without convenient access to Marrickville Library and the local archives.

I would be really obliged if some "local" did some research on the particular matters that have Fact tags on them.

Meanwhile, here goes with another grouch :-
 * There are editors on Wikipedia whose main contribution is to storm around deleting things that other editors write, and adding Fact tags.
 * It is infinitely more trouble and effort to search for an appropriate reference online, or even at the library, than it is to add a tag.
 * However, there are a few wiki editors who spend their time tracking down sources for interesting, pertinent but unsourced information.

This piece of information was recently deleted from the article:-
 * "At this time the demographic changed through imigration, with an influx of migrants from recent war zones, particularly Vietnam, Lebanon and Palestine."

The person who deleted wrote that Newtown did not receive refugees.

Well, no, Newtown was not a place where refugees were settled by Government policy. The Vietnamese, Lebanese, Palestinian and (I forgot to mention) Iranian people who settled in Newtown at the time were often those of private means. I am certain of my facts. Why? Because, among other things, in the 1980s I was teaching, in a voluntary capacity, English to Newtown's migrants. If Ms Crisp wants to be more useful, she could probably dig up some figures, instead of simply deleting things.


 * it is the responsiblity of those wanting to include information to justify it, I removed detail under WP:CITE. secondly, your comments above are original research. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Churches section
Was full of cruft and POV that sounded like a church member saying it helped the revival of Newtown. It contained no verifiable or reliable sources, simply giving a reference of "see register or minutes of church" is not reliable nor an independent source. If someone wants to readd the info, they will have to provide adequate citations to establish notability. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

--Amandajm 09:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

New Introduction to Article
Is it possible to write a more interesting intro for this article? I was looking at this article for Silver Lake, which sounds like it may have a similar vibe to Newtown:[] Compared to this one, which is strictly factual and doesn't really draw the reader in. --Bruiseviolet (talk) 05:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120321105936/http://www.australiast.uts.edu.au/ARCHIVE/CAM07d.shtml to http://www.australiast.uts.edu.au/ARCHIVE/CAM07d.shtml
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Camdenville
Many early references equate at least part of Newtown and an obsolete suburb name Camdenville, and that name persisted for some time in some sporting clubs. Can anyone clarify? Doug butler (talk) 23:55, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

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