Talk:Nichiren/Archive 5

Revising "Development of Nichiren's teachings" section
I provided a lead for this section.

I have several concerns with the section as a whole. It is titled "Development of Nichiren's teachings" which to me means explaining how his teachings evolved. Right now the narrative IMHO repeats content that is already in the biography section. Instead I think we should be concentrated on the major swings or evolution of his thoughts.

There are also several other problems. There are some inaccuracies. For example, in 1253, it is stated, he denounced all other Buddhist sects. This is wrong. His initial writings were mainly focused on rebuking the Pure Land teachings. Also, some of the citations have to be examined for accuracy and relevancy.

Let's not forget that at the top of this section there's a "Main Article" tag that points to the Nichiren Buddhism article. So this section here can be a shorter summary, I believe.

I am going to concentrate on finishing my review of the biography section which will probably take a week or two. If any editors are free, please feel free to jump in here. BrandenburgG (talk) 11:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Attempts at Execution
I am trying to source each paragraph. A bit more to do.BrandenburgG (talk) 10:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I finished sourcing this section. I think it is pretty solid now. Comments and further editing highly appreciated.BrandenburgG (talk) 11:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Retirement to Minobu
The fallowing paragraph should be removed from the Retirement to Minobu, it is already included in the Gohonzon Section:

"He also inscribed numerous Gohonzon for bestowal upon specific disciples and lay believers. Many of these survive today in the repositories of Nichiren temples such as Taiseki-ji (大石寺) in Fujinomiya, Shizuoka, which has a particularly large collection of scrolls that is publicly aired once a year, along with the dusting of the Dai-Gohonzon (O-mushibarai ceremony) by the High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu in April, as well as the public exposure of the statue of the master in both Mieido and Hoando buildings in November.[citation needed]"

Also all Nichiren temples that have original items from the founder have "airing ceremonies" and showings of Nichiren writings and Mandala Gohonzons. This paragraph should be in the Nichiren Shoshu page.

Gonzalopena25 (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Second banishment and exile
Yesterday I started working on this subsection. It is undersourced. It also relies on hagiography rather than on scholarship. As a result it misses some key points.BrandenburgG (talk) 11:07, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I finished my contributions to this subsection. I invite feedback and additional editing.BrandenburgG (talk) 13:09, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

The term Gohonzon needs to be corrected
A long the article the term Gohonzon is used to reference the Mandala Gohonzon. Nichiren stablished 5 types of Gohonzon of which the Mandala Gohonzon is one of them. To make the article clear and accurate the word Gohonzon should be changed to Mandala Gohonzon. Gonzalopena25 (talk) 22:55, 11 October 2018 (UTC)


 * @Gonzalopena25, I don't have a problem with this idea as long as you can find recognized sources to support your suggestion. There is a series of books published by a group calling itself something like Nichiren Mandala Study Group.  They have a lot of interesting facts but they self-published on Lulu, I believe, which is not recognized by WP.  You may also want to go to "www.books.google.com" and search for "mandala gohonzon."  Your source might pop up quickly.  Please feel free to edit the article as soon as you good sources.BrandenburgG (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

@Gonzalopena25, I see you made some of the edits you suggested here. I'm very happy to have another active editor. I was feeling lonely and it's not ideal to edit alone.

I don't have any objections to the changes you made. In fact, I would like to learn more about the 5 kinds of Gohonzon. But I want you to look for well-regarded academic sources that back you up. There might be editors in the future who claim this is original research. If you back your statements up with a citation it becomes a lot more difficult for an editor to challenge you. BrandenburgG (talk) 09:03, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

The "Mandala Gohonzon" subsection
I added citations to support this subsection. I added two Needs Citation tags.

There is a sentence about Nichiren Shoshu believers and the Dai Gohonzon which IMHO should be moved to the subsection about Minobu. Yes, the current subsection is about the Gohonzon. But the entire section on Nichiren's life is ordered chronologically. To keep this organizational pattern consistent I suggest moving this sentence.BrandenburgG (talk) 10:18, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Return to Kamakura
The subsection is now fully sourced. Feedback and improvements appreciated. IMHO I relied too heavily on one source, Stone 2003. Suggestions for other sources would be appreciated. We should rely on more recent scholarship, however, rather than Anesaki and others from early 20th century.BrandenburgG (talk) 12:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

"Nichiren's Teachings vs. "The Development of Nichiren's Teachings"
I would like to recommend that this section be renamed to "Nichiren's Teachings." this strikes me as a broader topic. I still think we should keep the tag that points to the Nichiren Buddhism article.

I would also like to recommend that this section includes subsections that summarize the key facets of his teachings. I have a sample here, called "The Four Denunciations," one such aspect of Nichiren's teachings. I have a prototype of this subsection in my sandbox. BrandenburgG (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Changing title of subsection to "Nichiren's teachings"
As I suggested above, this subsection's title should be changed to "Nichiren's teachings." I'd like to see the expansion to a good summary of his teachings. There might be some minor overlap with the "Nichiren Buddhism" article but I still think this is essential move here.

I realize there are not too many active editors on this article right now but I still would like to move ahead with the changes. I finished my proposal in my Sandbox and I invite thoughts and comments. I tried very hard to keep intact the work of prior editors. In the draft I provide a structure for an overlay, many more sources, and more narrative.

The weakness of this rewrite is the teachings that I include as either expansions of prior teachings or original teachings might seem arbitrary. I have read versions of this classification elsewhere but I haven't been able to relocate them. I will keep trying even after I post.

I'd like to put it up whole but I'm also open to putting it up incrementally. Feedback requested. BrandenburgG (talk) 11:28, 30 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and published the rewrite. I also added a new subsection "Nichiren and his followers" and elevated the subsubsection "After Nichiren's death" to a subsection.


 * This is a major rewrite and I recognize that there was not active participation by other editors. In case other editors want to partipate at a future date, I am very happy to work with them to improve this rewrite.BrandenburgG (talk) 11:16, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Ordering of lay movements
How should the lay movements be ordered? Right now there is no logic. They can be ordered either alphabetically or by some indication of their influence. This decision can be controversial, indeed.

First of all I added Reiyūkai to the list.

It would be very difficult to measure membership so I would like to suggest the expedient of looking at the number of followers of the respective articles and also the number of monthly views using October 2018 as the indicator. If ranked this way the groups should be ordered as follows:

Soka Gakkai-164, monthly views 10,426 Risshō Kōsei Kai-fewer than 30, monthly views 624 Reiyūkai-fewer than 30, monthly views 391 Kenshōkai-fewer than 30, monthly views 316 Honmon Butsuryū-shū-fewer than 30, monthly views 153 Kempon Hokke-fewer than 30, monthly views 152 Shōshinkai-fewer than 30, monthly views 109

I will make the changes but I am open to a further discussion when other editors jump in. BrandenburgG (talk) 10:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Completion of series of edits
In the past couple of days I added a couple of sources to the discussion on Nichiren's writings.

I think the article is solid and well-referenced now. Outside of minor tweaks I am going to turn my attention to other articles.

I look forward to reading the feedback and future edits by others.BrandenburgG (talk) 11:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Unsupported claims
This paragraph make very strong claims "manipulations of the populace," ""for both political and religious control," and "distorting the religious teachings for their own gain":

"Nichiren criticized other Buddhist schools for what he viewed as manipulations of the populace for both political and religious control. Citing various Buddhist sutras and commentaries, Nichiren argued that these Buddhist schools were distorting the religious teachings for their own gain."

These claims may or may not be true but they are not substantiated by academic sources. My knowledge of the topic is not exhaustive but I have not come across scholarship that goes this far. Last month I tagged the paragraph for lacking citations and in today's edit I deleted the entire paragraph.

I will keep looking for sources that could warrant re-introducing these sentences. Maybe someone else might be able to find supporting sources. BrandenburgG (talk) 13:04, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Nichiren's teachings
I completed an introduction to the N's teachings section. Would appreciate feedback.

I think the section is pretty strong now but I want to review to make sure I'm not leaving out key contributions. Any insights would be welcome! BrandenburgG (talk) 13:17, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Added new sub-sub-subsection "Changing karma to mission"
Added this section based on two articles Stone wrote for RKK's Dharma World and a book review by Habito. All feedback appreciated.

With this new section I believe the article is quite complete and I am going to take a break. BrandenburgG (talk) 12:05, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:22, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
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Nichiren Shu buddhist monk category
I don't think the category "Nichiren Shu Buddhist monks" should be applied to Nichiren himself, since the distinct sect Nichiren Shu didn't exist in his lifetime. Is it OK to remove the category? PeepleLikeYou (talk) 09:34, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra is synonymous to Gohonzon
This is the second most important doctrine of Nichiren and should be highlighted: https://markrogow.blogspot.com/2019/03/absolute-proof-that-nichiren-shoshu.html 2602:304:595F:75F9:D465:69EA:758E:EDE6 (talk) 23:00, 15 September 2019 (UTC) Mark Rogow