Talk:Nicholas von Renys/Archives/2012/April

Untitled
During a series of moves and reverts of Mikołaj of Ryńsk/Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk to Nikolaus von Renys/Talk:Nikolaus von Renys and back, the talk at Talk:Nikolaus von Renys could not be moved back and thus was separted from the article as Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk was write-protected due to an edit by, thus causing Content forking with two talk pages for one article. The orphan content from Talk:Nikolaus von Renys is now merged here, and a redirect is set there, which hopefully will allow a clean move of both to the new name to be determined in a vote. -- Matthead discuß!    O       10:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Please use proper WP:RM procedure if you consider renaming this article. --Lysytalk 14:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
Mikołaj of Ryńsk → Nikolaus von Renys — unsourced Polish POV, German name is sourced Matthead discuß!     O       18:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Mikołaj of Ryńsk → Nicholas von Renys — modified according to talk, new name according to Tannenberg 1410:Disaster for the Teutonic Knights, by Stephen Turnbull, old name is unsourced -- Matthead discuß!     O       23:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .

Survey - Support votes

 * 1) Support as nominator. -- Matthead discuß!     O       23:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. The only English source found so far uses this form. --Lysytalk 23:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Olessi 23:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per nom & Lysy. - Evv 00:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Support per Evv's arguments at the bottom of the page. Nicely done, guys. Scholar.google.com, oddly enough, finds none of these. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually it does, the search for nicolaus renys yields a work of Sven Ekdahl with an interesting title (did he read Wikipedia talk?). One of his works is quoted below -- Matthead discuß!    O       11:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

 * 1) I'd prefer Nicholas of Renys - if we want to follow WP:UE, why stop halfway?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Because WP:V & WP:NOR require that we restrict ourselves to faithfully reflect what our sources use/state ? :-) This has been discussed bellow at "Nicholas von Renys" & "Summary by Lysy". Evv 03:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The following survey was on the original, now obsolete Mikołaj of Ryńsk → Nikolaus von Renys. Please do not modify it. 

Survey - Support votes

 * 1) Support as nominator  Matthead discuß!     O       18:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per Matthead reasoning below, and per the exposure of Google-hit shenanigans there.  Gene Nygaard 01:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

 * 1) Oppose: "Mikołaj z Ryńska" - 12,100 Google hits (no, only 527 results, starting with mirrors of the Polish Wiki article, Matthead), "Nikolaus von Renys" - only 33 Google hits. --Lysytalk 19:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Most common name.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. No further edits should be made to this section.

Strawpoll for possible name combination
Multiple choices (8*4*5=160) for a Frankenstein name, like in a slot machine. Looking forward to Niksz von Ryńska or similar result. Deleted, for simpler support/oppose vote. -- Matthead discuß!    O       23:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Nikolaus von Renys is closely related to the Lizard Union, which was founded by him in 1397 as recorded in German language by the bishopric in Culm, see Talk:Nikolaus von Renys and Talk:Lizard Union for sources, and for a more appropriate version of the article. Apparently it is attempted to portray open German language opposition to the Teutonic Order within Prussia to some secret heroic Polish resistance movement and martyrdom of its leader, without citing any sources except a dubios szlachta coat of Arms that was used by over 200 families with different Polish names, among them Ryński, but no source that it was actually used by a 14th/15th century person called "pl:Mikołaj z Ryńska". -- Matthead discuß!    O       19:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Google counts are always interesting. claimed the following Now, when I use it, the first links yields only 527 results for "Mikołaj z Ryńska". How come? Hanlon's razor suggests why. But then, in the second link for "Nikolaus von Renys", Google is set to Polish language .... okay, Hanlon's razor again. Anyway, apparently some advise in the proper use of Google is needed here. First, the full name should be quoted which reduces the hits to
 * Mikołaj z Ryńska  12,100 Google hits
 * Nikolaus von Renys  only 33 Google hits
 * "Mikołaj z Ryńska" only 93 ... [This would leave out all the common inflection forms. --Lysytalk]
 * "Mikołaj z Ryńska" -wikipedia and only 80 when mirrors of the Polish Wikipedia article are excluded

Okay, this counts the use of the Polish name in Poland, hardly surprising. How about the name that Lysy actually wants to use in the English Wikipedia? Let's see:
 * "Mikołaj of Ryńsk" -wikipedia yields exactly 1 result, from a webpage in Poland that proves its reliability by stating "in 1939(sic!), through the setting up of the Salamander Society by Mikołaj of Ryńsk."


 * [Explanation for Matthead: The relation of "Mikołaj of Ryńsk" to "Mikołaj z Ryńska" is the same as "Nikolaus of Renys" to "Nikolaus von Renys". "Of" is English for German "von" or Polish "z". --Lysytalk]

So, the 12,100 results that Lysy claim quickly melt down to one 1 underwhelming webpage. Hanlon's razor is worn out by some Wiki editors that try to use Google counts to prove their point, e.g. by not excluding the names of streets and hotels etc. to make their point about the proper name of a Polish king or not excluding counts for a propaganda film to decide the name of a battle. -- Matthead discuß!    O       02:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Nikolaus von Renys" -wikipedia 9 in German
 * "Nickel von Renys" -wikipedia 3 in German for the nickname
 * "Nikolaus von Renis" -wikipedia 2 in Italian
 * Mikołaj z Ryńska -wikipedia 11,900 hits for adresses in Poland named after Mikołaj of Ryńsk, as only
 * Mikołaj z Ryńska -wikipedia -ul -ulica +1411 77 hits remain when streets are excluded, and the year of his death is required. Sorry, Lysy, trying to present a high number of Google hits for a Polish name by including Polish addresses named after it is an old trick. It only proves that there are places in Poland named this way, which is helpful for Polish yellow pages, not English Wikipedia. What we require here is solid evidence for the biographical use in English, by respectable sources.  -- Matthead discuß!     O       09:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Mikołaj z Ryńska -wikipedia -ul -ulica the same but without the +1411 yields 965 hits. As for biographical use in English language respectable sources, are you able to list them ? That would help focussing our discussion. --Lysytalk 10:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Stop beating this dead horse. Polish name is used in Poland, so what? As first page shows also addresses again, I had required at least one of the years each bio must include, 1397, 1410 and 1411. Only 15 Polish hits show all three years, as indicator for minimum quality. -- Matthead discuß!    O       10:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Nicholas von Renys
Let's remember Wikipedia's naming conventions: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.

Use English words: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.

Well... all the google searches above, regardless of their particular merits and accuracy, give results in German and Polish, making them irrelevant for the specific purpose of naming this article.

Instead, we should try to find what form do English-language publications and sites give to this knight's name. So far, I have found the following:


 * Tannenberg 1410: Disaster for the Teutonic Knights, by Stephen Turnbull, Osprey Publishing, Oxford, 2003, ISBN 1-84176-561-9, p. 79 & 96 (index):
 * Wirsberg's fellow conspirator, Nicholas von Renys, was beheaded without trial, but [...] A secular knight of Polish descent, otherwise known as Mikolaj Rinski of the clan Rogala...
 * Renys, Nicholas von 79
 * Amazon Excerpt - page 79: "... back' during its hour of peril was dynamite, but von Renys was no ordinary Teutonic Knight. A secular knight of Polish descent, otherwise known as ..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthead (talk • contribs) 10:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

And regarding the Banderia Prutenorum, in Banners from the Battle of Tannenberg we find:
 * Two stories are told of the fate of Nicholaus von Renys...

Matthead mentioned below this site: Chelmno flag in the Banderia Prutenorum Manuscript, where a certain Chrystian Kretowicz quite naturally translates the text using Nicholas:
 * Others say it is not true Nicholas was murdered...
 * These say Nicholas was brave...

Personally, I like Nicholas von Renys: it's simple, it's clear, it's English :-) Best regads, Evv 08:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't "Nicholas of Renys" or "Nicholas of Rynsk" be more English than "von" ? --Lysytalk 10:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As proven above, Stephen Turnbull identifies him as Nicholas von Renys, more than once, and also informs the reader once how Poles call him. Complain to Mr. Turnbull if you want "more English", like the very English Mikołaj of Ryńsk you insist on. -- Matthead discuß!    O       11:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Lysy that of would probably be "more English" than von :-) However, as Matthead mentions, the few English-language citations presented thus far use von; and therefore, following WP:V, the name I'm proposing uses von. Of course, I will have nothing against using of if English-language publications using that form are found. - Best regards, Evv 20:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we should face it, so far we have not seen a single reliable English source, all we have seen is a couple of random translations. Cannot really judge on "English usage" based on two web pages. --Lysytalk 20:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right, Lysy: we haven't found a single really reliable English source (Stephen Turnbull is a respected historian, but he focuses mainly on Japanese military history) . And yet, I believe that for the specific purpose of naming this article, the simple booklet I mention above is better than a thousand Polish, German and Chinese sources. We're not talking about article content here, but only about the article's name in the English Wikipedia. - Best regards, Evv 21:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * How about Mikolaj Rinski of the clan Rogala then ? (just joking) --Lysytalk 21:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * lol At least it would make people start reading the article with a smile in their faces :-) And that's never a bad thing - Evv 21:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We could name the article Nicholas von Renys, and use Nicholas von Renys, also known as Mikolaj Rinski,... for the first line, sourcing it with Turnbull's book. - Best regads, Evv 21:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Banderia Prutenorum calls him Nicolaus dictus Niksz, nacione Swewus
An Italian site sells figures of Teutonic Knights, including one with the banner of Nikolaus von Renis, made after the Banderia Prutenorum record of the Battle of Grunwald flags and events, with Nicolaus' entry on Page 5v


 * Banderium civitatis Culmensis, quod ferebat Nicolaus dictus Niksz, nacione Swewus, vexillifer Culmensis, quem magister Prussie postea, quasi parum fideliter egisset, capite dampnavit; cuius ductores erant Janussius Orzechowsky et Cunradus de Ropkow milites.
 * Habet autem verior assercio aliorum, quod prefatus Nicolaus alias Niksz, miles Swewus et Culmensis banderii vexillifer, non fuit a magistro Prussie Henrico de Plawyen, qui Vlrico de Junigen in prelio magno occiso successerat, ob aliquod crimen perfidie occisus — erat enim miles et heroicus et in armis magni precii — sed cum vidisset sue partis cladem seque miserabiliter omnibus spoliatum et captum, licenciam adeundi Wladislaum Polonie regem et alloquendi illum supliciter optinuit. Qua a clemente rege faciliter optenta peciit sibi banderium, quod gerebat, monstrari. Quo altero die monstrato, ad conspectum illius illo amplexato corruens expiravit ibidetnque rege mandante solo obrutus est9. Sub quo erant terre et [civitatis Culmensis milites et cives].

It has to be noted that the author, Jan Długosz, was a Polish diplomat, and anything but neutral. Decades after the battle, he described the captured banners of the Knights, but the records of the events and persons were based upon hearsay. He renders German names in quite unusual ways (Henrico de Plawyen, Vlrico de Junigen), unlike Polish ones. Anyway, even he calls Nikolaus Nicolaus, and not Mikolaj. The nickname Nickel is rendered as Niksz, though.

Translated in and English by Chrystian Kretowicz, 2 June 2001
 * Banner of Chelm (Culm) town, which was carried into the battle by Nikolaus [von Renis], also known as Niksz, native of Swabia. Some say that he was executed by the Grand Master for lack of courage in the battle. The banner [here a military unit] was led later by Janusz Orzechowski and Conrad von Ropkow. Others say it is not true Nicholas was murdered for cowardice by Grand Master Heinrich von Plawyen, successor to, fallen in battle, Ulrich von Junigen. These say Nicholas was brave and respected for his military skills, but when he saw the total defeat of his side and himself wounded and in rags, finally captured, he asked for and got permission to access King Ladislaus and begged for mercy. He received it from the magnimonious king and then asked to see the banner which he carried in the battle. Next day, the banner was shown to him, he embraced it and died on the spot. The king ordered his burial at the scene. Under that banner served knights and the city-folk from the Land of Chelm and Chelm town. Note: this banner is 3 cubits and one hand long, 3 cubits wide. The tail [schwenkel] runs 3 and 1/4 cubits and tapers to the end. [Editor's note: the flag is about 160 cm × 150 cm, the schwenkel about 162 cm long.]

and in Polish
 * Chorągiew miasta Chełmna, którą niósł Mikołaj zwany Niksz, rodem ze Szwabii, chorąży chełmiński, którego mistrz pruski później ukarał na gardle, jakoby niezbyt wiernie postąpił. Prowadzili tę chorągiew rycerze Janusz Orzechowski i Konrad z Ropkow [z Robakowa]. Jest zaś bliższe prawdy twierdzenie innych, że wspomniany Mikołaj czyli Niksz, rycerz szwabski i chorąży chorągwi chełmińskiej, nie został zabity za jakąś zbrodnię wiarołomstwa przez mistrza pruskiego Henryka v. Plawyen, który nastąpił po Ulryku v. Junigend, zabitym w wielkiej bitwie - był bowiem rycerzem i walecznym i wielce cenionym w potrzebie wojennej - ale gdy ujrzał klęskę swej strony a siebie nędznie odartego ze wszystkiego i pojmanego, uzyskał pozwolenie zbliżenia się do Władysława, króla polskiego i zwrócenia się do niego z błaganiem. Co łacno uzyskawszy od litościwego króla, prosił, by mu pokazano chorągiew, którą nosił. Gdy mu ją pokazano na drugi dzień, ujrzawszy ją i objąwszy upadł i zmarł, i tam też na rozkaz króla został zakopany. Pod tą chorągwią byli [rycerze i mieszczanie ziemi chełmińskiej i miasta Chełmna]. Uwaga! Ta chorągiew ma długości trzy łokcie z dłonią jednej ręki, szerokości za trzy łokcie tylko. Ogon zaś ciągnie się na długość trzech łokci i ćwierci szerokości jednego łokcia bez pół ćwierci, a im niżej tym węziej, w końcu zaś najwęziej.

So, what is the reason for using a present day Polish name for a medieval Knight from Southern Germany, recorded in latin by a Pole and in German by Germans, in the English Wikipedia? -- Matthead discuß!    O       07:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Nikolaus von Renys, Nicolas von Renis
This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/lothar/tannenberg.html

Nr.178


 * ''Another Nikolaus von Renys

''Banners from the Battle of Tannenberg A critical review of Die "Banderia Prutenorum" des Jan Dlugosz - eine Quelle zur Schlacht bei Tannenberg 1410 by Sven Ekdahl. (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1976)''

''by Lothar von Katzenellenbogen and Johannes von Narrenstein © 1995,2002 by Thomas Barnes. All rights reserved Originally published: 24-25 June 1995, KWHS Proceedings (Outlands) Posted: 5 April 2002 Part of the Medieval Heraldry Archive''.

178 ''(Banner with schwenkel, 3 1/4 x 7/8 ells) Barry wavy of four argent and gules, issuant from chief a Latin cross reversed sable. Civitatis Culmensis (City of Kulm [Chelmno]), Nicolaus dictas Niksz (Nikolaus von Renys [Renis] "called Niksz"). The current arms of the city of Chelmno are: Barry wavy of four enarched gules and argent, issuant from the third bar a Latin cross sable (Marian Gumowski, Erby Miast Polskich, Warsaw 1960, p.145). Two stories are told of the fate of Nicholaus von Renys. In the first, he is captured at Tannenberg and, upon seeing his banner in Polish hands, dies on the spot of shame. In the second and more likely story, he fled the battlefield and was summarily executed in Graudenz in 1411. Dlugosz also lists the names Janussius Orzechowsky (Johannes [Hans, Hannos] von Orsichau [Orsechaw]), Conradus de Ropkow, and Henricus de Plauyen (Heinrich von Plauen) in connection with the banner. The first two were knights with th! e army, the last succeded Ulrich von Jungingen as Grand Master of the Order (1410-1413)''.

Nikolaus von Renys identified as Schwabe

An earlier Polish source identified Nikolaus von Renys as Schwabe. That does not have to mean, that he was actually from Schwaben, that means a Germanin general, because besides the Polish calling Germans Nemcy, nemcec (silent, quiet), they call all Germans Schwaben (even as a derogatory term). Their knowledge of calling all Germans Schwaben seems to be derived from the fact, that all the German tribes of eastern Germany Magna Germania, were 1900 years ago by Tacitus classified as Suebi and Suebi (Suevi) lived for some time near the Black Sea, just as Goths.


 * Off-topic comment: As far as I know, it's the Swabian origen of the Hohenstaufen that lead to the widespread use of "Swabian" as synonymous of German.- Evv 00:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If the Polish wikipedia group insist on keeping a Mikolaj of Rynsk, then I suggest we have two article:

1. for the historical Nikolaus von Renys

1. for Mikolaj of Rynsk, a Polish mythological figure, who is loosely based on the historical German Prussian Culmerland noble Nikolaus von Renys and we link those two together.

As to Nikolaus or Nicolas von Renys, Nicolas von Renys has over 500 google results with different stuff, but google: Nikolaus von Renys all reflect the right person.

Labbas 8 January 2007


 * Two points: 1). I guess that a single über-sourced article mentioning both claims would be better than two competing ones. Just attributing everything along the lines of: Historians like Smith, Jones and Bond consider that his origin was Whatever ref ref ref, while others like Phillips think that he was Whatever ref.


 * 2). Are any of all those Google results written in English ? The only one I find searching for "Nikolaus von Renys" is the same one you mention here and I mention above. - Best regards, Evv 00:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Summary by Lysy
Mikolaj of Rynsk/Mikołaj z Ryńska/Nicolas of Renys/Nikolaus von Renys is generally absent from English language sources. Most of the texts about him are either in German or Polish. Generally Polish usage prevails over German on the Internet, and there's virtually no English usage. --Lysytalk 10:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the name you had chosen, "Mikolaj of Rynsk", is absent from English sources. I also agree that one Polish usage prevails; Jan Dlugosz wrote over 500 years ago in his Banderia Prutenorum Nicolaus dictus Niksz, nacione Swewus. If he had known anything about the alleged Polishness, he would have recorded that. Lysy, stop wasting time with insisting on your Polish POV, here and elsewhere on English Wikipedia, trying to push cases that are often simply embarassing. -- Matthead discuß!    O       11:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Lysy is right mentioning that we haven't found much English-language sources: only one booklet and two web sites :-) And yet, being this the English Wikipedia, I really believe that these are the only sources that should be used for the specific purpose of naming the article.


 * The booklet uses Nicholas von Renys, which is simple and easily comprehensible to any English reader (unlike the Polish versions or direct citations of historical documents using Nikolaus or Nicholaus). In this, the booklet follows the common practice of simplifying and modernizing medieval names, for whose original forms we usually have little or no knowledge anyway – remember that in this period people usually spoke in one language but wrote in other, and this without clear orthography rules, assuring that every name was rendered in a colourfull array of different forms :-) Best regards, Evv 20:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I think I would prefer "Nicholas of Renys", still, if we believe that it's important to translate names into English. On the other hand I believe that any English language book on history of medieval Poland would solve the problem. --Lysytalk 21:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope that somebody can find such a book soon :-) As I said in another comment, for me both of and von are ok, but so far von Renys is the only one we can source in an English-language publication (Turnbull). So, per WP:V, it's von the version I'm proposing. - Best regards, Evv 21:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure, there's no hurry. We can wait a couple of days and maybe someone would come up with more sources to support either version. A single source (using both versions in fact) does not seem like a lot, I'm sure you'd agree.--Lysytalk 09:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's pretty lousy, I agree :-) And yet, as little as it is, it's written in English by an historian, and it's the only thing resambling a reliable source we have thus far. In other words, right now it's the only thing that would make us comply with WP:V & WP:NOR.
 * I have no problem waiting a couple of months while we search for better sources (or another editor presents new books), but we should be aware that so far Nicholas von Renys, otherwise known as Mikolaj Rinski is the only thing we have in English, on paper and by an historian. - Best regards, Evv 00:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Format modification
What about modifying the format of this discussion from...


 * Survey - Support votes
 * Survey - Oppose votes

...to somehting along the lines of...


 * Survey - Move to Nikolaus von Renys.
 * Survey - Move to Nicholas von Renys.
 * Survey - Keep at Mikołaj of Ryńsk.

What do you think ? - Best regards, Evv 00:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes please. --Lysytalk 09:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See new strawpoll for names above, in total 160 combinations to choose from. -- Matthead discuß!    O       12:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * lol Matthead. Thank you very much for the effort and the intention :-) The problem is that, per WP:V, we as editors have to confine ourselves to reflect what the sources state; thus we don't get to assamble our preferred name from among the pieces we found in different sources.
 * WP:OR is very clear about it:
 * Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.
 * So, we have to choose only among the full forms used by English-language reliable sources. This is why I'm proposing Nicholas von Renys -Stephen Turnbull may not be ideal, but at least he's an historian and writes in English-, and why I'm not including Nicholas of Renys (or any other form) untill an English-language reliable source using that specific form is found.
 * Again, I propose to modify the survey's format to the three-way form presented above. - Best regards, Evv 00:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PS: I'm struggling to keep my boldness at bay and refrain from substituting Matthead 160 combinations with my new format for the move :-) Evv 21:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

---

Evv, Lysy and Matthead, Nicolas von Renys seems to be agreeable. That is fine with me. Labbas 10 January 2007
 * One little detail: Turnbull names him "Nicholas". Is that still ok for you ? Furthermore, would you agree to modify the format of the survey along the lines I proposed above ? - Best regards, Evv 01:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Nikolaus von Renys was not Mikołaj of Ryńsk
The person we are talking about was Nikolaus von Renys, not Mikołaj of Ryńsk, not a Polish knight.

There were a number of sources given for Nikolaus von Renys (versions: Nickel, Nicolaus, Renis). Even a Polish source Dlugosz, closed to the time identified Nicolaus Renys as Schwabe, that is German. There is absolutely no actual Polish source given for Mikolaj of Rynsk and no English source either. In the beginning this discussion and request for move showed this. Right now this whole thing is so filled with- who knows what, that even I, who posted many of the actual sources for Nikolaus von Renys, can only see a big blurr, when I look at this. How is anyone going to be able to tell what is what here?

I suggest, Matthead, put all this discussion in archive and only post the short necessary info back up, like it was. If it makes the English language speakers more happy to not have the 'German' Nikolaus' it could be Nicola(u)s, even though there is a Saint Nick. Labbas 10 January 2007

Summary again
So far we have found only one English language source, and this is using two forms: "Nicholas von Renys" or "Mikolaj Rinski". The first one is a variant of the German name, and the latter a variant of his Polish name. The same source also states that he was "a secular knight of Polish descent". In lack of other sources I'd rely on Turnbull/Hook for now and use on the two forms it mentions. Why don't we use the Polish form, if he was of Polish descent ? --Lysytalk 01:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Because Stephen Turnbull names him Nicholas von Renys, both throughout page 79 and in page 96 (index). He only mentions that " von Renys was no ordinary Teutonic Knight. A secular knight of Polish descent, otherwise known as Mikolaj Rinski of the clan Rogala, he was one of the joint founders..."


 * That subject " he " is clearly referring to Nicholas von Renys, who happens to be otherwise known as Mikolaj Rinski of the clan Rogala. It's the difference beween actually naming a person and mentioning a fact about that person (in this case, the other name by which he's also known).


 * As I already mentioned in the "Nicholas von Renys" sub-section above, per WP:V we could use Turnbull to source something along the lines of "Nicholas von Renys, also known as Mikolaj RinskiTurnbull, was a..." But WP:NOR -and probably WP:NPOV- wouldn't allow us to use that sentence to actually name the article Mikolaj Rinski. - Best regards, Evv 03:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Evv's rationale make sense to me. Turnbull lists him as "of Polish descent", but Jan Długosz mentions him as a "Swabian". However, this is probably due not to him actually having come from Swabia, but a blanket term for Germans used in Polish at the time (similar to Danube Swabians or Transylvanian Saxons being used regardless of birthplace). Am I correct in this understanding of the situation? Olessi 20:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's exactly how I understand it (indulging in a bit of original research, of course :-) Thank you for mentioning Talk:Nikolaus von Renys, Olessi. - Best regards, Evv 21:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Inserting talk from Talk:Nikolaus von Renys
The article was moved from Mikołaj of Ryńsk to Nikolaus von Renys and back to Mikołaj of Ryńsk, but the connection to the corresponding talk page was broken as the automatic redirect to Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk was intentionally removed by, thus creating a POV fork with two talk pages.

I insert the content here to re-join the talk, and place a redirect at Talk:Nikolaus von Renys. See the history there. -- Matthead discuß!    O       10:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) German name is sourced, see Talk:Lizard_Union
 * 2) Kulmerland was not Polish during his time
 * 3) Graudenz was not Polish during his time
 * 4) Lizard Union was not secret, foundation is documented in records of Bishoric in Culm
 * 5) ... in German language ... ( Bund des Landadels (Eidechsenbund).

Belegtext: '''daz wir eine geselleschaft dirdacht haben in sulcher wyse, das wir und alle gene, di in dese ... geselschaft komen, sullen eynir deme andirn bystehen; ... das czeichen der geselschaft zal zyn eyne eydechse Datierung: 1397 Fundstelle: CulmUB. nr. 413'''

Book sources quoted on website of Battle-re-enactors:
 * "...Die ermuedeten deutschen Streiter wankten bereits gegenueber der polnischen Uebermacht, als der Bannerfuehrer des kulmischen Adels, Nickel von Renys, durch verraeterische Unterdrueckung seines Banners das Zeichen zur Flucht gab. Die dadurch entstandene Verwirung nutzte Witowd, um mit seinen zwischenzeitlich gesammelten Kraeften einzugreifen..." TAUTORAT, Hans-Georg: "Schwarzes Kreuz auf weissem Mantel."; NWZ-Verlag, 2. Ausgabe, Duesseldorf 1980, S. 162 f.
 * "...Die Litauer griffen ebenfalls wieder ein, und in dem bereits kritischen Augenblick unterdrueckte der Bannerfuehrer des kulmerlaendischen Adels, Nickel von Renys, verraeterisch sein Banner, worauf die Flucht allgemein wurde. Insgesamt wohl mehr als 8000 Tote beider Seiten deckten das Schlachtfeld." BENNINGHOVEN, Friedrich: "Unter Kreuz und Adler - Der Deutsche Orden im Mittelalter."; v. Hase & Koehler Verlag, Mainz 1990, S. 158

How about some sources for the Polish claims, other than links to those "herbs" which are used exclusively used by only a few by hundreds families with different names? -- Matthead discuß!    O       12:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Posting factual article here, because of Lysy removal;

Nikolaus "Nickel" von Renys (Nicolas von Renis, Mikołaj z Ryńska) (1360 - May 1411 in Graudenz) was a Prussian Knight from Ryn where the Teutonic Order had erected a castle around 1337.

Together with his brother and cousins from the gentry of Kulmerland, he established a society for mutual support on 24 February 1397 in Kulm, called Lizard Union.

During the Battle of Grunwald in 1410, he carried the banner of the troops of Kulmerland, but lowered it prematurely, which was considered a signal for retreat that contributed to the defeat of the Knights. The Order accused him of cowardice and conspiracy against the Hochmeister Heinrich von Plauen and he was beheaded in Graudenz in May 1411.

Labbas 7 January 2007 -

Mikołaj of Ryńsk Previous Polish Version
Posting text of previous Polish version Mikołaj of Ryńsk here, for whoever wants to read it

Mikołaj of Ryńsk (Nicolas von Renis, Nickel von Renys, Mikołaj z Ryńska), Coat Rogala (1360 - May 1411 in Grudziądz), was a Prussian Knight of Chełmno Land. Together with his brother and cousins on February 24, 1397 he established the Lizard Union, a secret organisation aimed at joining the Lands of Chełmno with the Crown of the Polish Kingdom. During the Battle of Grunwald in 1410, not willing to fight against Poland, the troops of Chełmno Land left the battlefield, for which he was later kept captive by Teutonic Order despite holding a letter, warranting him freedom. In violation with the terms of the Peace of Toruń (1411), which prohibited persecution of traitors after the battle, the Order beheaded him in Grudziądz in May 1411 and had all his male descendants killed.

Mikołaj z Ryńska

Labbas 15 January 2007

Recent edits by 71.159.31.82
71.159.31.82, I thought you've considered Turnbull to be a respectable source, when it suited you ? --Lysytalk 06:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC) -- Hi Lysy, I had already posted the following explanation on Edit summary (copy here: more reliable: Polish Jan Dlugosz and dozens of German sources Nikolaus von Rhenys-only reason for Turnbull is English version Nicolas von Rhenys) That is why he was picked, not by me. Olessi has put the Polish POV of the Mikolaj of Rynsk article back into the Nicolas von Rhenys article, but added the Turnbull assumption versus the Dlugosz record. Greetings Labbas 16 January 2007 ---
 * In other words you are saying, that Turnbull is more reliable as a linguist than a historian. His book was good to claim English usage, but you consider Jan Długosz (1415 - 1480) to be a more reliable historian ? I hope you are not going to remember it when it will be less convenient for your agenda. --Lysytalk 21:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't the claim that Turnbull speaks better English than Długosz? And doesn't he? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

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Please don´t overestimate the quality of the Osprey publications. Turnbull´s interpretation ("secular knight of Polish descent")cannot be a historic source itself. Turnbull´s interpretation is a pure historic speculation as long as T. cannot present & verify his own sources. 80.135.255.142 13:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC) ErzPoet

Rogala Name used for Clan- References - Heraldry Snobbbery and Document Falsification
A Translation from Symon Konarski' s "0 Heraldyce I Heraldycznem Snobizmie" (On Heraldry and Heraldic Snobbery)

O Klusownikach w Heraldycznej Kniei" (Poachers within the Heraldic Woods) Pages 58 -73

by Leonard Suligowski

Intelligent individuals have realized for some time now, that every human weakness is open to Scrutiny...Many authors of "miraculously found authentic documents" lived in prosperity for the rest of their lives... forged documents in order to make the history of their families more interesting and appealing. Paprocki... Mr. Bartoz ..Guilty, we can include Okolski, Stupnicki,1862.. Count Seweryn Uruski, (Notices and Titles of famous Polish Families, Paris/Brussells, 1862).

Kasper Niesiecki was a leader in preserving the integrity of genealogical literature. When Niesiecki decided to publish his scrupulously gathered materials and documents it was not difficult to find knowledgeable and affluent people who would be willing to subsidize his project....

Krzystof Stanislaw Janikowski (died in 1680)was, considering the time, a rather skillful paleographer. The deception was discovered and Janikowski was exposed while he was still alive. Then, there was the priest, Stanislaw Wojenski. He died in 1685 in wealth and prosperity, in 1661 he was the Canon of Krakow, in 1679 the Bishop of Kamienic, and was chosen to lead a special commission in charge of inventory of the Treasury Archives of the Crown at the castle of '''Kracow. There, he planted previously falsified documents.''' The manuscripts, supposedly from the 1400's dealt with certain dignities and supposedly received titles for the family Zadorow. Exclusively all were conceived in the authors imagination. Przybyslaw Dyamentowski, of the clan Drya, nicknamed 'Mutyna" also became famous by engaging in falsehoods. He was born in 1694, and died in 1774.

'''Wojciech Wincenty Wieladko; Przebyslaw Dyamentowski's "copycat", and his successor, produced the largest number of titles... Wieladko was born in 1745 and died in 1822, as an old man in his house (Kamienica) in Warsaw. Besides many others in this group, I can include hypothetical noble titles of the Jezierskis, herb Rogala, Labedzkis, or Szantyrow.''' ... Revision was completed around 1850. Several entries were annulled. New processes of legitimization were requested. As a consequence, today, it would be of no use to look for: Jezierskis, herb Rogala; Labedzkis; Szantyrow and many more in the official documents of titled nobility. And many more

It is not up to me to decide whether the author wrote ...because he was not familiar with the facts or he was counting on the ignorance of the reader.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/k/o/c/Casimir-Koczorowski/FILE/0003text.txt

By the way for comparison of the Family Name (surname) Rogala the genealogy http://familysearch.org shows less than 10 Rogala entrances in Poland, 1800 in Germany with Rogala, Rogalla, Rogalli, Rogal, Rogall, Rogel etc etc spellings. The German phone book today shows 80 Rogala families and 800 Rogalla families.

''I will leave these texts for a while to read only, then remove them and leave website addr. only'' Labbas 17 January 2007 Anyone, who still believes that the Rogala-clan note by Turnbull actually proofs, that Nicjolas von Renys was of the Polish clan of Rogala, thus he was Polish, then please state so and sign here:

--- About S Turnbull's entry: '''It is not up to me to decide whether the author wrote ...because he was not familiar with the facts or...

The fact that Rogala clan claims are worthless is already established by Symon Konarski and translated to English by Leonard Suligowski, therefore not original research. Swabian used for German by Poles is a fact, still known to Polish speakers today (just like Allemagne is the French word for Germany), not original research either.

Culmerland Landadel Nicolaus von Renys was born in (earlier T.O. Komtur Rynne), (Teutonic Order State) Prussia, Rhein,Ryn Eastprussia. Rynne was derived from what is today in English known as Rhine river.

Condensed the temporary posted text and left websites with detailed info Labbas 18 January 2007


 * Large amounts of text really should not be pasted like that; simply mention the important parts instead. I have no opinion on whether von Renys was a German or a Pole or a Swahili. Adding material inferring that the "Rogala clan" is illegitimate to counter Turnbull's writing seems to be original research, just as conjecturing that "Swabian" refers to a blanket term for Germans and not a place of birth is original research as well. Regardless of what someone personally believes, it still would be original research to mention either of those situations in an article.


 * Proper usage of NPOV and citation of sources means that we source what writer A writes, source what writer B writes, and be done with it. Rather than try to discredit Turnbull, it would be better to list published sources that assert von Renys being a German. Once there are citations for him being a German and being a Pole, then the encyclopedia reader can make his own decision.


 * Does anyone know where "von Renys" refers to? Is there a Renys or Renis in Swabia, or is it the German name of pl:Ryńsk? Olessi 18:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * While I can find very little information on Symon Konarski, Leonard Suligowski seems to have a good reputation as a heraldry expert. I have edited the article to mention the discrepancy between published sources according to WP:NPOV. It is against WP's policies to have links to talk pages (like this) from an article, so please avoid them in the future. Renys apparently refers to Ryn, not pl:Ryńsk; is there a source for it being within the komturship of Balga? Giżycko seems rather far from coastal Balga. I also added &#91;citation needed &#93; for "Some Polish versions claim...", since "claim" is a weasel word. Olessi 18:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

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 * WikipediaDE (german) on Ryn states that it was part of Balga, also:  translation of section on Pflegeamt Rhein  ...1326 Teutonic Order sectioned territory around later Kreis Loetzen (now Gizycko) and northern part of Kreis Lyck (now Elk) to komturship Brandenburg (EastPrussia, near Koenigsberg, now something like Uljanowo,Kaliningrad Oblast, Russia)) and larger part of Kreis Lyck with town of Lyck, Kreis Johannesburg and Pflegeamt Rhein (Ryn) to komturship Komturei Balga.  Labbas 22 January 2007

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