Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality/Archive 2

It is somewhat strange that in an article about a scientist the most of the discussion is not on his theory but on his nationality.

But what strikes me most is how fierceful the polish side claims Copernicus as a Pole, though it should be obvious for any sensible person who does not even know more than written in this wikipedia article that Copernicus´ nationality is at least disputable. It seems to me that the reason for this is a kind of inferiority complex of a nation. Perhaps this has to do with the nazi attitude regarding the polish people as inferior. Maybe it dates even back in time when modern civilization reached Poland from the west - not necessarily German culture, but Christianity.


 * Listen pal, why pointing at Poles, while German as hard and fierceful are claiming him as German? Why single out us, and ignore German contributors which were doing the same, huh? Szopen 8 July 2005 10:06 (UTC)

''Szopen, have a look on the German wikipedia and you will find there that Copernicus´ nationality is even not mentioned up to the last paragraph. Then he is described as a "rather" polish astronomer of German descendance. That seems quite balanced to me.''

Probably the Poles have overtaken somewhat of this view unconsciously, but they should not and they need not. It is time to overcome this fear of losses and to have a more relaxed view on national icons. Why can Copernicus not be considered as a German and a Polish astronomer? Germany and Poland share more than they are aware of. (frapowierski)
 * Search the artcile history and look who was inserting and then backing German-Polish astronomer. Also, look at the discussion below. (for my sentences, especially those where I speculate how would answer Copernicus i asked whether he is Pole, or whether he is German. FOr your note, I am Polish.Szopen 8 July 2005 10:08 (UTC)


 * Let the Poles have Copernicus, he was educated by Germans, like almost every other Pole who has done anything of importance. If Copernicus is Polish he is probably from a converted Jewish family; Jews are the only ones in Poland who could ever get any thing done correctly.


 * Now that's a nationalism. First - Copernicus was not educated by Germans (he was educated in Poland and Italy). Secondly you have nazi-like opinions. Belive me that other nations than Germans (and Jews?) can do something really great. Sadi 13:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I just recovered some discussions about Copernicus Nationality - seems to be the most important theme...

maybe you (we all) should remember more the historical connections between ethnics in history before the idea of national states were established in Europe (with all its consequences).

So from the outside i must say, mostly in the direction of some polish friends here, maybe you try a little to hard to make him a polish heroe. Why?
 * Because Germans are trying very hard to prove that he was German hero. Every reaction provokes contra-reaction. During war, They changed all the plates on all his monuments in Poland and Polish resistance was changing them back, in night. Something from that may stay in us...
 * But again, until Poland lost independence, no one doubt he was Pole. Doubts appeared in XIX century only. Szopen 07:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Maybee the solution is, not to speak about "german" or "polish", but only "prussian" or other original therms. And dedicate all power to creativity.

José E, Spain


 * Of course you'd say that, Spain doesn't have any scientists. -- Chaz

Uncles Name: Copernicus Uncles name was Lukasz Watzenrode and he was born in Krakow Poland. He wasnt german and had no von in his name.

Removed quote:

In Padua both, his uncle, the Prince-Bishop and Copernicus had enrolled as student from the ...German Nation (Full name was at that time Holy Roman Empire of German Nation).

Removed quote:

''Poland had parts of Prussia occupied, tried to annex and wanted to have Polish coins in Prussia. The cities of Elbing, Danzig and Thorn did not want to give up their individual sovereign rights and continued coining money. In 1519, 1522, and 1529 Copernicus published Money Reform Memoranda. His 1529 writings stated in part :

" Woe to you, unfortunate Prussiland, that you should have to suffer for such a bad money management!.. If we do not have relief here soon, then Prussia is soon going to have only coins left, which contain nothing but copper. Then all trade with foreign countries would stop. Which foreign tradesman would want to sell his merchandise for mere copper?... Such a break-up of Prussiland is silently observed by the big powers; they let our beloved fatherland, to which we owe everything, to which we owe life itself, from day to day collaps miserably.." (excerpt from Hermann Kesten, Copernicus, describing Prussia during the civil wars leading to the Reformation, transl by user:H.J.).''

I'm really sorry, but this is just another attempt to throw in the Poland-Prussia debate in another guise. The manner in which the quote is presented, as well as the translation (there really is no such thing as Prussiland in English, and fatherland is doubtful at best), are simply unacceptable. Moreover, if this is a translation of someone's Latin-German translation, than I think that fatherland is simply the Latin patria -- VERY different than the context user:H.J. would like us to accept. Again, there has been so much time spent on this, that it's bordering on the ridiculous. Still, as a professional historian, I cannot sit by and allow this blatant misrepresentation. People in Copernicus' time really didn't understand ethnicity and nationality in the same way that you want to believe, Fr. user:H.J.. And, contrary to what you may believe, i don't care if Copernicus is Polish, German, or even Thornisch! Gianfranco is correct about placing the man's accomplishments first. What I do care about is that the debate and the entire issue of nationality are framed within the proper context: that context is one of people with an ideological interest allowing that interest to shape a view of history that is in fact inaccurate. JHK, Tuesday, May 21, 2002

PS: Hermann Kesten's undoubted brilliance as a dramatist and author aside, he was doubtless a man of his time. He was educated at a period when ethnic nationalism permeated the teaching of history, and when it was not only acceptable, but normal, to write history with underlying motives. Today, historians are expected to take the biases and background of the author into consideration. Moreover, we are expected to be more critical of historians who do seem allow their viewpoints to shape their presentation of history. I'm sorry, but all authors are not equal, and some scholarship is better than others. We should try to keep this in mind.

Space Cadet -- please don't start-up the old German-Prussian problem -- I reverted to what we had all worked out a long time ago. JHK

Sorry Ed, I reverted back to an earlier version that reflected huge amounts of work and cooperation in a truly wiki spirit. Much of the discussion seems to have been lost between the old software and the new (or maybe it was archived somewhere, because the talk page was enormous), but this version was deemed acceptable by the largest amount of people involved. You can kind of tell because it's been pretty much left alone until very recently, when user:H.J. started sneaking in her agenda. No offense meant, but you just don't know how hard it was to get it this way -- and if you're wondering, I actually have several strong objections to the way it is, but believe it's best to leave it in what the group found most neutral.JHK
 * PS -- weren't the place-name links in German, but pipelined to the Polish names??


 * After your revert, I changed the birthplace sentence again, to show both variations of the name: Thorn and Torun. And I balanced a parenthesis.