Talk:Nigger Fucker/Archive 1

Untitled
Shel Silverstein did not co-write that song. I don't know where that rumor started, but it keeps cross referencing itself. 65.115.176.43 15:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well just for the record im a new person discussing this article. Who cares if this song is satire or not? The fact of the matter is this song is one of the most offensive and disgusting things i have ever heard or read. I am from Texas and i have an appreciation for country music but the fact that this song is even allowed to be sold in stores is disrespectful to all blacks! If i ever heard anyone even listening to this song in my presence i would stomp there a$$ into the ground. I dont really care if this was meant to be satire or not he should not have put this song out period. It is definitely not funny and i dare somebody to play that song in anyones presence that i know...I just happen to be a black man and all my friends just happen to be white and my fiance is white. This is the year 2008 and if people are still offended by the fact of interracial dating then they are uneducated, close-minded and borderline retarded! The reason DAC does not perform these songs at his concerts is because he would probably never make it back to his tour bus after the concert. I think music like this should be banned from society and if the people who support this type of idealism that this song represents they should speak up and say something in public to a black guy and his white girlfriend the next time they see a Ni**er Fu**er and see what happens to them in real life...That is all i have to say about this song.

Mickale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.201.152.226 (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You would do nothing 2603:6011:3B00:A800:1926:50CA:97C3:D4A9 (talk) 13:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The suggestion that the lyrics are "too racist to be real" is simply wrong, and the assertion made by someone who has never known an actual racist.


 * I shopped all around, and I filled out my order
 * My groceries were bagged by a fat nigger porter
 * The air conditioner was broke and I was ferocious
 * 'Cause it was hot and that nigger was-a-sweatin' on my groceries

and :
 * It's enough to make a man throw up
 * Sure is hard to figure
 * How any decent girl could ever fuck
 * A greasy nigger

Those sentiments are exactly the sort of thing a racist would express, and believe, and take pleasure in saying. Don't kid yourself, that is for real, and if all you can do is laugh at the apparent ridiculousness of it, then you are very innocent. Those words should strike you with fear, as much as laughter.

sorry
sorry i was the one who started the whole shel silverstein thing. but i never said he co-wrote it. i said coe hung out with him and thats how coe got the inspiration to write the humorous x-rated albums (not just that song).


 * The above unsigned entiry "sorry" was mde by anonymous User:152.163.100.139 on 03:19, March 2, 2006 and i have added that name here for ease of tracking the talk page hisory. Catherineyronwode 20:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Notice also that although the idea that the Jewish children's book author Shel Silversein co-authored this racist song was debunked twice on the talk pages -- on February 19 and March 2 2006, the attribution to Silverstein was again entered into the page two months later, on May 3, 2006, by Alsayid. Catherineyronwode 00:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, please. This has already been explained twice previously, both of which you read, and at this point you are simply being inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory.  The well-intentioned attribution was changed without incident before you even raised a stink about it.  Stop with the personal witch-hunt already. --Alsayid 01:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

To Alsayid
I noticed your remark that i should not call refer to an edit on the page Nigger Fucker as "vandalism" without just cause. I thought i had just cause:


 * First you deleted about half the article.


 * Your editorial note explaining the deletion was not accurate. You wrote: (Article cleanup: removing repetition, unsupported claims, and POV; returning focus to song rather than song writer). However, you removed almost all of the information about the song, in effect "sanitizing" it of all content, and the description you left of the song was NOT accurate.


 * The lyrics are not about a "jilted husband" as you claimed. To jilt someone is to leave them at the altar bfore marriage.


 * The lyrics are not about a man being left along to take care of his children as you claimed. The song is not simply a racialized version of "You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille" -- it is a song fusing race-hatred, and sexual jealousy. The children appear in one line; the bulk of the lyrics focus on sex acts and a white man's disgust at  his ex-wife's intimacy with a "greasy nigger."


 * The information that you deleted and "sanitized" out of existence is central to the song, and it is not "POV" or "unsupported claims" or about the "song writer" as you claimed in your edit note.


 * Second, on your next edit, a few minutes later, you suddenly inserted the name of Shel Silverstein, a well known Jewish poet, author and children's book writer, as the "co-author" of the racist song "Nigger Fucker" by David Allan Coe. This literally came out of nowhere. If you did not intend it as vandalism, i must say that it certainly looked like it to me, especially as it was added after you had already "sanitized" the description of the song and had described it falsely.

Your irresponsible action in adding Shel Silvestein to the page caused the editor Entheta, who had originally created the stub, to have to go to the Shel Silverstein talk page to get the information that cleared Silversein of your charge of collaborating in anti-black racism / satire (take your pick).

I reverted the page to the last pre-vandalized version.

You then reverted the article back to your first, half-deleted and "sanitized", version which falsely claimed that the song was abou a "jilted" husband who was left to care for his children.

I have seen your apology for inserting the name of Shel Silverstein. However, for the reason that your current version is simply not an accurate description of the song, i am now going to revert the aticle again. I will not break the 3-reversion rule, but if you revert it again, i am going to seek mediation. Catherineyronwode 20:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just read that long and peristently accusatory comment. Whew!  Unfortunately, you still misunderstand the meaning of vandalism as pertains to Wikipedia.  I ask that you aquaint yourself with the entry on it, and I STRONGLY suggest you refrain from jumping to accuse other editors of racism or "anti-Semitism" in future edits, as that kind of malicious commentary gets us nowhere.  Additionally, the Shel Silverstein co-write attribution did not "literally  come out nowhere."  Far from it.  Indeed, Entheta himself attributed the song to Shel when he originally created the article!  But you lept to the worst possible conclusion instead of assuming good faith, and launched into me personally.  Neither did I "apologize", I thanked Entheta for pointing out what he had discovered when the attribution was changed back before you even took exception to it.  Please don't let your emotions allow you to misrepresent what happened.


 * Some specifics about the article. The word "jilted" will be changed to the more accurate "abandoned" so that's not a problem anymore.  Good call.  Regarding the rest, however, my edit was entirely appropriate.  Nothing was "sanitized."  Bear in mind that what you personally think about the singer (or his guitar) is not relavent to the article.  Here's the most important thing to remember: The focus of the article should be on the song, not the singer. --Alsayid 23:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Alsayid, i am sorry if i have offended you by jumping to the conclusion that your insertion of Shel Silverstin as co-author of the song was vandalism. However, coming as it did two months after the last time the matter had been debunked on this talk page, i felt i was dealing with a persistent anti-Semitic campaign.

If i erred, please forgive me and let us move on to the question of why you keep reverting the page about this song and its contents to a stub.

With your latest revision, you have sanitized the article so much that the words racist or racism no longer appear on the page. There is no mention that the song contists of a long string of sexually explicit lyrics. The entire set of lyrics is here:

http://www.lyricsdir.com/david-allan-coe-nigger-fucker-lyrics.html

You have repeatedly claimed that your goal in returning the page to stub status is to direct the focus of the article to the song iself, but as it stands now, you have made it impossible for anyone to describe the song in any way, because you continue to revert it to shorter and shorter stubs each time it is expanded to normal article length.


 * In my opinion, two points -- what the song is about and what impact its release had upon the public -- are essential to any article describing the song.


 * My questions for you are these:
 * What is you goal in eliminating text of the page that accurately describes the song?
 * What is your goal in removing all mention of the fact that this song has been perceivd as racist by many klisteners and that this fact demonstrably led to the erroneous rumour that somposer David Allan Coe was he same person as the pseudonymous racist songwriter Johnny Rebel?


 * By the way, i speak as someone who likes David Allan Coe's music, has one David Allan Coe song in my itunes cache (not this one), who is opposed to racism, and who does not feel it is "disloyal to DAC" to describe this song accurately with respect to its lyrics and to openly describe what happened to his reputaton as a result of writing and releasing this song. Reverting the page to stub status every few hours will not make the controversy go away. Let's find a way to present it that is accurate and satisfying to all contributors.

And again, i am sorry if i offended you; that was not my intention.

Catherineyronwode 01:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The only way to solve this dispute is to cite some sources, which I don't see in any version. I tried googling but found virtually nothing about this song at all, besides lyrics and a few brief descriptions. Anybody have a print biography of Coe and/or Silverstein? Tuf-Kat 01:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * To Catherine: If that's a genuine apology regarding my editing motives, I'll gladly take it so we can move on to more productive discussion.


 * Regarding stub status, the article has been a stub since its creation. It was a stub today when I first edited it.  Unless we have a good amount of relavent information to add, I imagine that's what it should still be.  If there's more verifiable info to add, I have no problem with it being de-stubbed.  Whether it is or isn't a stub isn't my focus or great concern, the integrity of the entry itself is.


 * If people knowing the lyrics is your concern, I added a link to them on the article page. I actually did this just before checking the talk page, as I agree that this would be useful.  I do have some concerns regarding our ability to copy too large a portion of the lyrics to Wikipedia for copyright reasons, and am not entirely sure we're in the clear linking to them at an unofficial Coe site.  However, I chose the second option as a safer bet unless or until someone can offer a definitive statement on it.


 * In response to your questions, my "goal" has never been to remove anything pertinent to the article. You see, that's the crux of this whole thing.  I want the description to focus on the song, as that is what the article is about.  The singer is still credited at the very beginning, and anyone wanting to learn more about Coe can go to his entry.  The song is still called controversial.  A portion of the lyrics are still included, and now we have a link to the full lyrics.  Focus and NPOV language are essential to a good article, and I always try to be mindful of them no matter the nature of the subject.  If noteable, verifiable info regarding the song and/or how it impacted that person/organization can be dug up, all the better.  By the way, I prefer this type of communication. :) --Alsayid 01:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics and copyright
Copyright always seems to be a murky issue, and I am aware of how sensitive (and serious) the matter is at Wikipedia. My question, then, is can a song like this be copied directly to Wikipedia? If an off-site link to the lyrics is avaiable, is that preferrable, or are there potential problems there as well? I realize several admins will be looking at this, so feel free to comment. --Alsayid 02:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I work in the publishing business and know quite a bit about copyright. The entire lyrics CANNOT be quoted without permission, but four lines an be quoted in the contxt of a scholarly discusson, as was done for the purposes of providing a demonstration of the content of the controversial material. For a direct example of a similar short quote on a controversial issue, see the quote in the "Controversy" subsection on the Mircea Eliade page. For a similar short quote of song lyrics, in a non-controversial vein, see the four lines of "You Never Even Called Me by My Name" in the Catherineyronwode 04:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, a small portion of a copyrighted work can be quoted. How small or large is another matter, considering that we have already quoted a portion of the song.  I'm concerned about how much more, if any, is needed before it becomes gratuitous.


 * On a side note, all other things being equal I'd just as soon see the full lyrics provided, but as you pointed out, that would be infringement. We do have a link to the lyrics, though. --Alsayid 05:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Satire
Coe has said that this is "satire." I think it is material to the above discussion to consider whether it actually can be termed "satire." Consider the following four definitions:


 * sarcasm: witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Jonathan Swift
 * Satire is a literary technique of writing or art which principally ridicules its subject (for example, individuals, organizations, or states) often as an intended means of provoking or preventing change. In Celtic societies, it was thought a bard's satire could have physical effects, similar to a curse. A satirist is one who satirizes.
 * the use of ridicule or scorn, often in a humorous or witty way, to expose vices and follies. 2. a literary example of such ridicule or scorn.
 * A manner of writing that mixes a critical attitude with wit and humor in an effort to improve mankind and human institutions. Ridicule, irony, exaggeration, and several other techniques are almost always present. The satirist may insert serious statements of value or desired behavior, but most often he relies on an implicit moral code, understood by his audience and paid lip service by them. ...

So is this ditty satire? Sunray 06:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * And if this doesn't fall into the dictionary definition of "satire", would "spoof", or "parody", if you will, do? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 03:46, August 30, 2006 (talk • contribs) 03:46, August 30, 2006 (UTC).


 * I must admit that it's difficult to see it as satire from the lyrics as written; perhaps it's just bad satire by someone who doesn't really understand how to do it.
 * Sunray (and the article on Coe) says that Coe himself claims that it's satire, but this article says only that some people think that it is. As no reference is provided for either, could someone find one?
 * On other issues:
 * I have a worry about quoting much from the song, given its content; it can look as though we're either condoning the content or are being controversial for the sake of it (though I'm perfectly aware that neither was actually intended).
 * We mustn't speculate about Coe's views or intentions. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's satire. To me, the lyrics are just too flat out racist to be for real. I interpret it as Coe mimicking a foul mouthed racist. Many country songs are narrated from a characters point of view, and my guess is that this time Coe has invented a racist character for the song. It's not very sophisticated humour, but I must admit I do find it funny. But I agree with Mel Etetis here, that it's not our job on Wikipedia to solve this issue. Let's stick to the facts that the song is controversial and believed by many to be racist, and regarded as satire by others, and that Coe claims it's satire. (Entheta 13:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC))
 * If the only source anyone can find is that Coe said it was satire, then that's all the article can say. Even if we all agreed that it didn't qualify as satirical, putting that in the article would constitute original research, which is verbotten. Tuf-Kat 22:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Coe said it was satire in an interview on the Howard Stern show in 1999. Unfortunately, this is not online. Admittedly, the satirical nature of the song is not easily apparent ; it could easily be misinterpreted to seem like it was expressing outright racism. However, satirising racist attitudes can be rather difficult ; for example, Randy Newman's song "Rednecks", which is intended as a satire on racism, was taken literally by racist types themselves who even adapted it as an anthem of sorts. The unreleased original version of The Beatles' "Get Back", known as "Commonwealth Man", was also intended as a satire on racism, but listeners misinterpreting it - both racist and anti-racist - has caused Paul McCartney to be inaccurately be labeled as racist.
 * There's no reason you can't cite a TV show, AFAIK. Tuf-Kat 03:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Problem # !: We have not yet located a source for Coe saying it is satire. PLEASE, if anyone has such a source, let's cite it. Otherwise, whose word are we taking here?

Problem #2, Even if source is located in which Coe says it is satire, the CONROVERSY does not go away. Some folks simply do not believe it is satire, just like they don;t believe that Mircea Eliade was not an anti-Semite.

Entheta wrote: "To me, the lyrics are just too flat out racist to be for real." This is an interesting concept -- that something can be too accurately reflective of real racism to actually BE racism -- but it fails as a litmus test for what constitutes racsim. Consider this question:


 * Are the lyrics "Some niggers never die, they just smell that way" also "just too flat out racist to be for real" and therefore must they too be satire?

If you said, "yes," you would be wrong, because those lyrics are not from "Nigger Fucker" by David Allan Coe, they were written and sung by the admitted racist Clifford Joseph "Pee Wee" Trahan, a.k.a. Johnny Rebel, from his "For Secregationists Only" album. (Documentation on Trahan's intransigent racism is at: http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2003-06-10/news_feat.html)

Compare:
 * I shopped all around, and I filled out my order
 * My groceries were bagged by a fat nigger porter
 * The air conditioner was broke and I was ferocious
 * 'Cause it was hot and that nigger was-a-sweatin' on my groceries

and :
 * It's enough to make a man throw up
 * Sure is hard to figure
 * How any decent girl could ever fuck
 * A greasy nigger

Both songs relate the tale of a European-American man's reaction to an African American man's sweat (which is why the "fat nigger" is "sweating" in the first set of lyrics and is "a greasy nigger" in the second set.)

In both sets of lyrics the effect upon the white narrator is physical, visceral revulsion -- and in both songs their discomfort rises to ludicrous extremes that are out of proportion to the situation -- a man sweating on one's groceries making one "ferocious", a white woman having sex wth a black man making one want to "throw up".

If you believe that one set of lyrics is "just too flat out racist to be for real" and the other is really racist, how can you demonstrate the difference?

If someone can locate a quote from Coe in which he says the song is satire, that would be of interest -- but i t would not do away with the fact that some people don't believe him. This forms the basis for the use of the term "controversy" to describe the issue.

Catherineyronwode 02:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * But, as Tuf-Kat says, we need citations both for Coe's claim and for other people's beliefs. Our own opinions aren't enough, nor is our feeling (or even knowledge) that some people don't believe that it's satire. (See WP:CITE.) --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 10:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Also without decent research how are we to know that DAC was not satirising Johnny Rebel? It really is too dificult to say. Perhaps if someone knew or could comment on the context in which the song was written, then that would be significant. Because (in my opinion) ultimately it's not the words themselves that determine whether a song like this (or indeed, any other kind of script when satire is in question) is offensive, but rather the situation in which they were written, and the intended meaning at the time.

Who else remembers Chris Morris in Brass Eye saying perhaps the most offensive things ever said on TV about HIV and AIDS, but without a doubt, the context in which they were recieved identified them as extreme satire. 81.170.49.14 01:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

WCAD
This is a worthless puppit maztar and if I knew how to greye for deletion I would. Its a song with no stevey classic by Joseph Taylor, and its Winnerz Circle All Day. Duckmonster 21:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Are we only to have unoffensive things like Lexi Saterfield and honeybadgers in wikipedia then?Stev17 13:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

To the topic poster, keep in mind that wikipedia is not censored.

"Fan following"
My computer was bugging. When removing this header, I meant to write "wu tang clan aint nothin to fuck with". Read this. Entheta 19:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reference : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzMhCxSXY9A — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.133.8 (talk) 07:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

NWA
"NWA" in this article links to an disambiguation page. Please clearify what NWA is meant or remove sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.129.81.146 (talk) 13:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a very well-known hip-hop band, read moar. 68.33.148.172 (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to read moar. But, what the hell is moar exactly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.170.189 (talk) 05:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

YOU MAD BRUH? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.12.244 (talk) 14:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)