Talk:Night in paintings (Eastern art)

Helpful links
Hi folks, here are some helpful links: Ukiyo-e Woodblock printing in Japan. -- RexRowan  Talk  17:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Great, I added a heading. You can do that in "edit" or start a new section by clicking "New section". I love the works you've found so far!


 * I think that in the eastern article there could also be mention of how oriental art, once trade opened up, affected the way that western art depictions of night may have changed - and vice versa. What do you think? I'm going to stay focused on the western art for the moment, but will check in to see how things are going here. If you need anything, let me know.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, sure! Yeah, most painters apart from European ones had perception problems and problems with light. The trade issue is a good idea. People simply brain stormed. -- RexRowan  Talk  17:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, I was reading last night about how Hiroshige impacted the artwork of Parisian artists in the late 19th century. You may enjoy taking a peak at this: Copies by Vincent van Gogh.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm, so what about middle east ones? We are doing art Olympics here. -- RexRowan  Talk  18:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Fun!


 * From Western art history - Western art is the art of the North American, South American, Oceanian and European countries, and art created in the forms accepted by those countries.
 * Eastern art - does not have a section for Islamic art
 * Islamic art due to historical civilizations in Europe and Asia appear in both. I don't have a good answer for that.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Next steps...
Hi, I did a bit of work on this article to get things rolling a bit -
 * I got some info about the first artist, Ma Lin (painter) from his article
 * Then I got some background about the Song Dynasty work from the Chinese art article, which helped explain the artist's approach and the feeling that they sought to evoke
 * The following article (search on Ma Lin) has information about his works within the document - and the featured painting in particular: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/99sp_leni_rubenstein_chinese_art.pdf
 * Checking reliable sites with the following search criteria may be useful, too: Ma-Lin Song-Dynasty painter night

I'll be around, but I'd like to finish up what I started with the 1st article. If anyone would like to get started, maybe this is a place to start.--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Carole, Ma Lin's dad seems to have a night painting. By the way, should I category this article by century or dynasty? Each dynasty has its own style, but each country has different dynasty at the same time... -- RexRowan  Talk  11:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow! That's a very good question. When I looked at the Eastern art article, it seems to me that it was by country, then dynasty - but I wouldn't imagine that we'd want to put all those sections in - it would get cumbersome. I wonder if for simplicity it should be by century, but in the text mention both the country and dynasty or movement. Does that make sense?


 * By the way, you may want to see the comments in the Talk:Night in paintings (Western art) - it looks like I have been providing too much background. Although for the Ma Lin piece, the background was tremendously helpful for understanding the different approaches for eastern vs western art. Maybe that info should be in a general section - maybe titled something like "Eastern and Western art". Hmmm. It would be good if seasoned Visual art project members could chime in on this, though.--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You could add a section on Indian miniatures, which have plenty of night scenes; maybe Persian miniatures too. If you could find sources, also add on the very diffferent subjects in Eastern night painting - very tranquil - and the gentler way they represent night, just dimming things down generally. Also Buddhist hell scenes. The presence of night (outdoors) is normally indicated by including the moon (in both East and West) which should be said. Johnbod (talk) 14:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow, great ideas! What do you think about 1) section headings for this article and 2) providing background of the eastern approach as described in the Ma Lin section, perhaps putting that in a general section such as "Eastern and Western art" or "Eastern art approach"?--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Number of images
Based on the feedback on the Western art article, it might be a good idea to limit the number of images, especially where there's similarity in how night is presented in a series within a section. I'll take a stab at editing the Night in paintings section.

It sounds like it would be especially nice to make room for some of the suggestions from John.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I added two Persian ones and a Indian one, couldn't find any Egyptian ones, to my surprise!-- RexRowan  Talk  15:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I saw, they're gorgeous!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Captions
I started working on the captions, using the following format, pulling some of the info from WP sites or the internet:

artist + title + (Country dynasty or era ) + year + current location (if known)

Examples:
 * Artist unknown, Mohammed Splits the Moon, 16th century (Persion Safavid dynasty), Saxon State Library, Dresden, Germany.
 * Artist unknown, Radha at night, circa 1650 ( Mughal ), Kupferstichkabinett Berlin

Since, as mentioned before there are many countries/areas and dynasties, does that make sense in terms of format?--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Roger!-- RexRowan  Talk  16:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm going to get working on the Western art article for a bit, doing some editing based on John's comments. I'll peak over here from time to time. This is going to be a very beautiful article!--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, no problem. Indeed, it is and thanks to you my dear friend! :D -- RexRowan  Talk  16:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

More images
I hope it's ok I'm bringing the conversations about images back here. That way, others who'd like to weigh in can join the conversation.

I have three thoughts:
 * 1) Check that we're catching the comments from John. I saw, by the way, that you've added many more diverse images that seem to be in keeping with John's thoughts. I'm not sure where there's a Buddhist hellish night image, but I can scope around about.
 * 2) Take a peak at the Eastern art article and see what areas don't seem to be well represented - and see if there are good examples for night images.
 * 3) There's, of course, the issue of ensuring that the images are notable. My first tack at that - if I don't know any better - is to see how much is written about the artist and/or painting here at WP -- or, then, on the web. I think it would also be good to research (google books, etc.) the subject of how night is depicted in Eastern art - and see what paintings arise from that research.

How does that sound? I'll take a few stabs looking around. If there's anyone, though, who can chime in on additional notable paintings or artists, that would be incredible!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding #1 - I added 2 images - one to 13th century and another to the gallery about Buddhist hell. I also added comments about Okabe in the 19th century section. I'm not sure if these are appropriate - but figure that they can be deleted if not.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding #2:
 * 1 Balinese art - I couldn't find anything in commons
 * 2 Buddhist art - I found one more (none hellish image) of the 100 Aspects of the Moon (100 works), which should be very good
 * 3 Bhutanese art
 * 4 Cambodian art
 * 5 Chinese art
 * 6 Indian art
 * 7 Indonesian art
 * 8 Japanese art
 * 9 Korean Art
 * 10 Laotian art
 * 11 Thai art
 * 12 Tibetan art
 * 13 Vietnamese art
 * I'm returning to Western art right now, but hopefully this is helpful!


 * I went through all of them, not much around. -- RexRowan  Talk  20:09, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you find any of these? Sorry if their dupes of what you already have:

Ooops. This is the last of what I found now. I promise.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much Carole, nighty night, back tomorrow. :D -- RexRowan  Talk  20:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, talk to you tomorrow. I hope some of these are new to you.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * By the way, just cause I found them doesn't mean we need to use them - they should still fall under the criteria of notability, furthering the story, etc. I was just trying to ensure that we had a well-rounded capture of the Eastern cultures. It may be that we find that we need to prune, but I thought I'd at least show some more options to compare against. For instance, I'm quite expecting that some of the seasoned team members may come in and decide some are redundant, etc.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I will have a sort out today. Thank you so much for listing them here! :D -- RexRowan  Talk  09:57, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow, the article sure has a great set of images!!
 * What do you think about the following?
 * Updating the captions to include country and, if known, dynasty/period?
 * To be consistent in the two articles, ordering the works chronologically (putting unknown dates for the century at the end of the list)?
 * Checking for areas where there seems to be some duplication and/or a lot of images, such as:
 * Night in paintings (Eastern art) - where the first three works look very similar. Maybe we just need one or two of the first three. Selection criteria could be based upon notability and whether there's much written about the paintings or artists depiction of night.
 * Night in paintings (Eastern art) - same kind of selection criteria. For instance, maybe we don't need both Utagawa Kuniyoshi works and both Kōgyo Tsukioka. There's a lot of Hiroshige, but they all have different aspects that we may want to explore - and I think that we may find a fair amount of info to write about.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will sort them through. Thank you very much Carole for your great suggestions! -- RexRowan  Talk  16:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you! It's coming along nicely!--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Carole, with some of the photos, I get confused between dynasties and places when they don't use the word dynasty. -- RexRowan  Talk  18:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a problem, I'll take a cruise through!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, "cruise" might not have been the right word - but I got the captions updated through the 16th century by looking up the artists name (if there) on Wikipedia - or the name of the work on Google. Do you mind finishing the rest? After lunch, I'd like to get back to the Western article for a bit?--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, done, India doesn't have dynasties right? -- RexRowan  Talk  19:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Nope, I think India had regional kingdoms, empires (Mughal) or, for lack of a better term at the moment, cultures (Hindi, Buddhist)?--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, what I did was adding content using Chinese timeline as a guide as it's one of the biggest influence in Asia. Then other elements can be added accordingly. -- RexRowan  Talk  20:17, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Egypt, Middle East, Africa
An earlier comment about Egypt got me thinking... It doesn't look like these three areas don't fit in the definition of Eastern or Western art. We have quite enough on our plate, but just for curiosity sake, and potential resolution later, what would those get grouped under?--CaroleHenson (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think maybe we mention them in this article as we don't have as much content as the other one does. -- RexRowan  Talk  09:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Image captions and next steps
Hi, I'm starting a new section because the section was getting so long:
 * Images: Regarding determining the dynasties for the Chinese works, are you saying you looked at a timeline rather than the author or painting info? It's probably a safe guess, but what if an artist bridged over two dynasties? I don't know how that works. Do you think it's 100% conclusive that looking at the timeline will yield the same results as checking info about the artist or the work itself?
 * Content: Regarding article content, I thought I'd chime in now to save you from the amount of reediting I needed to do. I had starting putting in background info - but was directed to really focus on the works and how they depict night in paintings. In other words, stay on topic. I think there's going to be some good information out there - let me see if I can find a couple of things to get you started. I'll add it to the list you created, if that's ok.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Earlier comments from John - I bolded for emphasis the items specifically giving suggestions for content for this article:


 * "You could add a section on Indian miniatures, which have plenty of night scenes; maybe Persian miniatures too. If you could find sources, also add on the very diffferent subjects in Eastern night painting - very tranquil - and the gentler way they represent night, just dimming things down generally. Also Buddhist hell scenes. The presence of night (outdoors) is normally indicated by including the moon (in both East and West) which should be said. Johnbod (talk) 14:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)"


 * Also, I read somewhere that hell is considered night (relating to the Buddhist hell scenes). Like I say, I'll start popping over some sources for content on your user page for this article.  I could also just put it in a bibliography section. Let me know if you prefer for me to do it that way.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure!I'm off now, back tomorrow! -- RexRowan  Talk  21:22, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds good! That will give me a bit of time to pull together some more sources for you - which for now I'll post at your page. I'll just get a couple sources started for you to see if you think they'll be helpful.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Grouping of information
Once Rex started adding some content - and I thought about it a bit, I wonder if we should change our strategy for the eastern article and group the information by country - and then by topic. For instance, there are four Chang'e paintings but there in three different places: 16th century, 20th century and the gallery. It might be nice to talk about what she represents once (for all four images) and then discuss the differences between the paintings over time.

There's other cultural threads that don't necessarily cross over into other countries cultures, like Eastern art:
 * Buddha's death / Buddha's hell (although I know that there are other hell depictions - that's already an article)
 * Persian themes: Muhammad's Night Ride", The Ascent of Muhammad, Mohammed Splits the Moon
 * Japanese ukiyo-e, which are often scenic landscapes
 * Chinese moonlight related mythology (Chang'e and Yue-Laou) and other symbols

Basically the imagery, composition content and meanings can vary pretty significantly - and some of the connective thread is lost if the works are split off solely by century.

That's my suggestion. Any votes one way or the other?--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea, these paintings won't be so scattered then. -- RexRowan  Talk  14:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * We can put them in as background infos before the countries categories? -- RexRowan  Talk  14:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I would think that there would be some background - such as a short summary of how Chinese art depicts night in a way that's different than how other cultures / countries of the east depicted night.--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok. Will look around. -- RexRowan  Talk  14:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, the regrouping is done - although some subsections may change a bit.--CaroleHenson (talk) 04:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, it looks so neat! I am very impressed by your organizing skills! Well done and thank you so much! -- RexRowan  Talk  10:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I think it is going to be easier to write now that general themes are grouped together by the relevant countries/culture.--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed! Thanks again! :D -- RexRowan  Talk  14:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

China and Japan
The article is getting quite long -- and the material is heavily weighted towards China and Japan.

Suggestion:
 * 1) Create articles specific to China and Japan with a "main" link to Night in paintings (Eastern art):
 * Night in paintings (China)
 * Night in paintings (Japan)


 * 2) Make the China and Japan sections in the Night in paintings (Eastern art) article about the same length (summarized, less images) - similar to the other country/religion sections.

Are there any opinions one way or the other?--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the see also sections you did on the Chinese fine art can be used here too, a brief discription and then link to the main article. How's that? :D -- RexRowan  Talk  20:28, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure! I'd like to see if anyone else wants to weigh in - we have a number of people who look at the article each day (although I'm not sure how much of that is just prompting from automated editors based on edits being made to the article). But, sure, that makes sense.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Use of ultramarine blue by Eastern artists
The painting Mohammed splits the moon in the Islamic section led me to thinking about the range of blues available for artists in the East. I could well be wrong but the sky in that painting as well as the Prophet's clothing appear to be painted with ultramarine. Ultramarine was expensive in the West, because it was made from ground lapis lazuli from Afghanistan. In Western art, it's often associated with the clothing of the Virgin Mary or with other spiritual figures. In the East, I imagine it was still not abundant, since it's a semi-precious stone, but perhaps it was more common.

It would be interesting if someone knowledgeable about pre-modern Eastern art could comment on the different availability of colors. Just discussing the possible palettes of a few Eastern artists, with reference to what was common in Europe, would be interesting. Roches (talk) 10:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure they did use it. It probably was expensive, but the quantity needed for miniatures was far smaller than for altarpieces. Johnbod (talk) 13:20, 4 May 2015 (UTC)