Talk:Nineteen Eighty-Four/Archive 1

Anthony Burgess should definately receive more credit for A Clockwork Orange. He isn't metioned, only Stanley Kubrick is. I believe the author deserves a little more credit. He can still be attributed to being inspired by 1984 because Burgess wrote twelve years after Orwell, in 1962.

"1984" vs "Nineteen Eighty-Four"
I vote to leave 1984 at Nineteen Eighty-Four so it doesn't get confused with the year article -- I never did like the idea of making all those year articles, anyway.

Or we could figure out a good disambiguation, based on the way most readers would try to look up the book. --Ed Poor

Here's the Cliff Notes (image)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0764585851.01._PE_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg


 * All I know is that dear departed Dr. Harker threatened us with lingering death if we were to ever refer to the book by numerals. Here's a hardbound edition. - user:Montrealais


 * Do a "what links here": we have a selection of redirects to choose from :) I'm not sure if it's words or numbers. -- Tarquin

Whatever you and Tarquin want is fine -- I'm not going to engage in an edit war over it. --Ed Poor

I don't know who your "Dr. Harker" is, but it appears to me that the title of the book in the references I checked is indeed "1984", not "Nineteen Eighty-Four"; what reference do you have to the contrary, other than the picture you referenced (I can just as easily show a picture of my copy, which has "1984" on the cover)? --LDC - I suppose this doesn't help your case any. --KQ


 * I can't get at my copy of the novel, but George Orwell's Essays, Journalism, and Letters, three volumes, edited by his widow and a noted Orwell scholar, refer to the book as Nineteen Eighty-Four as do two of the three standard references I checked. Nonetheless, 1984 is common and universally recognized. You can't trust book designers.  (See E. E. Cummings.  Naturally, Cliff's Notes would use the shorter form.  It doesn't give the full title of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn either. Ortolan88
 * Good point. --KQ

I agree, book covers are not authoritative here; a listing in something like a Library of Congress catalog would be ideal. --LDC


 * FWIW, my university's library's catalogue returns "Nineteen Eighty-Four" even for the term "1984".
 * Having investigated at the Library of Congress, I find that they catalogue all editions of the book under the heading "Nineteen Eighty-Four", even the ones which were printed as "1984"; the only related works catalogued under "1984" are films. user:Montrealais

Cool. The 1984 page then should probably have a link here...I'll go do that. --LDC


 * Already does :) -m

Orwellian page
Anyone want to make a case for a seperate "Orwellian" page? It could include a history of the use of the term, if we can find one. I agree with merging it in here, at least for now. If the discussion of "Orwellian" here becomes long, then it could be moved. -- Sam


 * source of the word "Orwellian"... It's not really the source, is it? The best i could think of was "basis" but I don't particularly like that either.  Anyone have any suggestions?  --User:bgruber
 * "Origin"? pomegranate

bitingly satirical and nightmarish
We need a good review quote or two to show that a lot of people think that 1984 is "bitingly satirical and nightmarish". I think this is the prevailing view, although it probably should be attributed. -- Sam

Crass quotation
In 1982 Crass sang; " Big brother ain't watching you,mate, your fuckin' watching him..."... In these days of jade, davina, et al, were they prescient or what??????????" thank you and good night, you've been a wondeful audience... quercus robur 02:23 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

Webcams

 * With web cameras (webcams) now being commonplace, the privacy of home computer users falls under even greater question.

This is a bad addition; webcams are controlled by the user, the threat to privacy currently comes from spyware and related software. --Sam 12:35, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

political novel or science fiction
I'd say it is not a political novel but a science fiction one. Although dystopias and utopias lie in between, at the very least if you mention one border genre you should do this same with another. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:26, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * It's not a science fiction novel. Science and technology are hardly mentioned, and apart from a few things like the speakwrite, technology is not at a greater level than 1940s Britain. Robin Johnson 14:28, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

IE6; temporary alliances of the three power blocs
In my browser, IE6, there isn't a bullet point in front of "WAR IS PEACE". There should be one - both in the logical and technical sense - and there are bullet points before the 'external linkes'. Curious.

On another level, as I recall from reading the book a long time ago, the three power blocs kept forming temporary alliances with each other (one of the reasons why Winston Smith has to edit all those papers, inspired in real life by the Orwell's horror at the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the subsequent flip-flopping of the West's relationship with Russia); this doesn't seem to be in the article. Also, the nature of Smith's work, as a history-tamperer, could be alluded to. Ashley Pomeroy

Time frame
The time frame for the book is from April 1984 to the spring of 1985, ... Is there a source for this statement? As far as I know, it is unknown if it really is 1984 in the book. "...it was never possible nowadays to pin down any date within a year or two", it says on page 9 of my edition. -- Eugene van der Pijll 14:41, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The reason I put it is because a couple of years ago I went through the entire book and made out a timeline. I managed to construct one baesd on actual dates used the mention of the seasons and how many months had passed between events. -- Bean 19:36, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * But was the year given by anyone else than Winston Smith? He doesn't know what year it actually is. I believe you when you say you've tracked the seasons and months; I don't doubt that the book starts in April and ends in the next spring. But was it 1984 or 1985 or 1986...? Eugene van der Pijll 21:38, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The only incidence I can think of is when Winston is altering info given to him at work about Big Brother. Example: times 17.3.84 bb speech malreported africa rectify (it can be found in Chapter Four of Part I in the book). But I took out the part I wrote because I felt, in the end, it's not incredibly important to the article as a whole. -- Bean 14:38, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * Yep, you are right. Those fragments really show that it is 1984. It's a pity; I rather liked the idea that a book called 1984 was not situated in the year 1984; it would fit the theme of the book, in my opinion... Eugene van der Pijll 21:40, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I've also discovered one other place. In the Appendix aka The Principles of Newspeak. In the year 1984 there was not as yet anyone who used Newspeak as his sole means of communication, either in speech or writing.. But I agree with you when you said that the uncertainy of the year would fit the theme of the book. Bean 15:15, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

1984 and 1941
For many years I was associated with a human rights group that based its operations on the famous 1941 State of the Union speech by President Roosevelt which he called: "the four freedoms." At the same time I was also deeply involved with British and American broadcasting history and the lack of freedoms that existed at that time on the British airwaves. It was in this period of time, which happened to coincide with the year 1984, that I took a new interest in Orwell's work and it suddenly became very obvious how and why Orwell had gained his inspiration for this book. Orwell had written political script for the overseas service of the BBC and this was during the same period of time that Roosevelt made his speech. Because the four ministries in Orwell's book are a reversal of their stated intentions and because Roosevelt outlined four freedoms which match Orwell's ministries (but not in the same order), it becomes very plain, very quickly of what initially motivated Orwell to write this book. Having previously written similar explanations over the years elsewhere, I thought that this information should also be made a part of Wikipedia's fund of knowledge. MPLX/MH 06:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't know enough of whether this is true to put it in the article, but I heard that the Ministry of Truth is based on the BBC. Orwell, when he worked for the BBC, was asked to falsify some report (or something) and quit on the spot. If it's true. Robin Johnson 16:07, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I believe that Malcolm Muggeridge (who was a friend of Eric Blair) may have been one of the sources for what you stated. But which book he stated this in I cannot recall. I do have several books on Blair and when I get some time I will try to look it up. But I agree with you that this is probably the beginning of the idea that emerged into the novel and therefore it should be included. MPLX/MH 16:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

stuff I've wrote on 1984
Hi, I've wrote a bit about 1984 when I was doing a novel study at school. I'll copy and paste what I wrote here so you can add it if you want. ---

READ AND REFLECT PART 1 Summary

Story:

The year is 1984, the 3 super-power nations of Oceania, Eurasia and South-East Asia are in constant warfare, the government controls your every thought through the Thought Police, and everything that makes a man a man has been destroyed. In this world lives a man named Winston, he is in his late forties, has grey hair and smells of rotten cabbage. But this man has a secret that could kill him; you see, this man has bought a journal. This may not seem dangerous, but in this world any sense of individuality is a crime. But not only has he bought a journal but Winston has written in it: “DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER”, (Winston hates Big Brother and the government) this is the ultimate thought crime, denouncing the leader of Oceania’s government, the founder of INGSOC (English socialism) .But now lets begin with the main story.

Winston goes to work at the Ministry of Truth (where they fabricate lies) in the centre of Airstrip 1 (more commonly known as London). There, as he walking down the halls he sees O’Brien, one of the inner party members (Winston is part of the outer party) right when they cross each other Winston sees a glimmer in his eyes. This glimmer leaves him to believe that O’Brien is part of the resistance.

Later that week he starts noticing a young woman (in her early twenties) that always appears to be near him. He fears that she is a spy and because of that he starts planning to kill her. You must understand his surprise when in one of the hallways in the Ministry of Truth she stumbles in front of him, when he is helping her she secretly hands him a note. And this all happens in front of a telescreen! (a camera-TV combination, it spews out propaganda and intakes voice and video. This is used by the thought police to monitor everyone. There are telescreens in every home, office, anywhere were there might be humans.). When he returns to the cubicle Winston reads the note, it says: “I love you.” Winston is extremely shocked. (in this world love is a crime, the only purpose of marriage is to produce kids).

Later in the day during a hate rally, the woman whispers to him that they should meet at the main square at 7:00. When Winston goes there they talk (there are a lot of people there so the telescreens can’t catch them). The woman introduces herself as Julia. They agree to meet later. These meeting continue for a long time. They then find out there is a room to rent where the paroles (people not in the party) live. They rent the room (the paroles are not monitored by the thought police as they are too stupid to be a threat to the government) and meet there from now on. There they discuss there disgust towards the party and do things.

One day O’Brien meets with Winston and tells him to go to his house. Winston goes to the house with Julia. There O’Brien says that he is a member of the resistance. He gives them The Book. In this book is the explanation of the party, country and world. Julia and Winston read this book together in there room.

It turns out that the thought police DO put telescreens in the residences of the paroles as one day the Thought Police burst in and apprehend Julia and Winston. Winston and Julia are locked up in the Ministry of Love; this is where the torturing begins. They are tortured personally by O’Brien. They are tortured until every moral quality in them is destroyed and every bone in there body is broken. They are then released.

Winston now loves and completely believes Big Brother.

The End

--- READ AND REFLECT PART 2

1984 is meant to be a warning. This book is George Orwell’s horrifying prediction of the world to come. A world in which man has lost all its most human qualities, becoming soulless automated machines controlled by a totalitarian government.

In the seventeen hundreds a popular book theme was utopias, this is because of the rapid advancement of science and the improvement of the standard of living. But after the world wars this all changed, after man-kind had witnessed the great amount of destruction it can inflict on itself (the atom bomb for instance) people started fearing the future, people started writing books fearing the future. Among these un-utopia books, 3 stand out, 1984, We and Brave New World.

Ideas: A rise in the standard of living (luxuries making life easier) leaves the people with more free time. The government needs to create jobs to keep the people busy with no free time. More free time lets people pursue education and lets them think about the ruling party/government, thus leading them to revolt against the party. Also to keep the middle class from revolt the party needs to keep the middle class on the edge of survival, not giving them any luxuries, makes them only think about surviving the next day. You need a strong economy to create jobs, but what would everybody produce that does not raise the standard of living? The answer is war. By having the country in constant war time economy in which everybody produces for the war the country can have a strong economy without raising the standard of living. War always results in the destruction of the machine/product so there is a constant need to make more of the product/machine.

A qualities of man CAN be destroyed. A man’s longing for freedom, for dignity, for integrity, for love can be destroyed. In “1984” this is done by excessive torture, in “We” it is done with a brain operation and in “Brave New World” it is done using drugs. These books all assume that man is born with these qualities, if man inherits these qualities then there would be no need to destroy them in these un-utopia worlds as in these worlds children are taught to love the death of the enemy, to betray there parents to completely submit to the government and Big Brother.

History can be changed. The government constantly changes all records to agree with the present. This is done in the “Ministry of Truth” (this is where Winston works). The government has changed history taught in classrooms so that it credits all inventions to itself. For instance Oceania (the county where Winston lives) was at was with East-Asia, then one day it suddenly changed and was at war with Eurasia. That same day the Ministry of Truth changed all documents that referred to the war with East-Asia and made them to look like Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. Within 2 days everybody in the country had accepted that Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia, this was now an undisputed fact.

The government is making a new language “Newspeak” that limits thought. In this language it is impossible to think of, or explain concepts such as freedom. When this language is fully implemented thoughtcrime will be impossible as it will be impossible to think of anything that contradicts the party.

Doublethink: The concept of accepting to 2 contradicting ideas at the same time. Example: 2+2=4 but also 2+2=5 (“if the government says so then it is true”). This is used a lot in the Ministry of Truth. The workers know they are lying when they change the facts but they also accept that this is the truth.

This is seen in modern corporations too. When you work for one company you know that there product is not the best, but you also accept that it is the best.

Also the concept of mobile truth. Your truth changes as you move. For instance the corporation example: when you move to another company you now accept that THERE product is the best even though you had just days before accepted that the competitors product is the best.

Things I like: The characters are incredibly complex, for instance Winston is deeply tortured by the fact that he was so selfish towards his mother and sister when he was little. He once stole the last piece of there food and ran away, when he came back, his mother and sister were gone, killed by the government purges. These people are not perfect by any means, this makes them very lifelike.

1984 has a made-up language to go along with it. It is called Newspeak. It is incredibly complex. I like books with made up languages, (Lord of the Rings) this makes the world of 1984 very realistic.

This book does not have a Hollywood happy ending. In the end Winston says, “I love big brother”. This goes against all the ideas before he was “broken”. I like not-happy endings as there are too many of them, life almost never has happy endings. This is another reason this book is very realistic

The book had many interesting plot twists that kept me riveted to the last 4 words. For instance when it turns out Julia loves Winston and also when it turns out O’Brien is one of the “bad” guys.

And most importantly this book makes me think. Unlike other books this book has ideas that make me think, that stimulate me and change my look of the world.