Talk:Ninja/Archive 2

"There is some speculation of Chinese influence"???????
Such an opinion is not true. You should not write a lie. You should clarify this source of information. If it is not made, this description should delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwg53 (talk • contribs) -It is valid speculation as the appearance of Ninja coincided with Chinese

refugees from the ongoing China civil war in the southern states. Ninja were recruited from

these villages and illustrate the contrast in culture as Ninja initially filled a mercenary

role in warfare. I've heard it speculated on the history channel and other such programs but it

is conjecture since the origens of the Ninja have always been shrouded in mystery. -Dash

Ninja in popular culture
I removed some poorly sourced material, pasted it at Talk:Ninja in popular culture, and changed the section to a See also that points there. I hope no one freaks out. Heroeswithmetaphors (talk) 09:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC) ninjas were monks that kicked ass —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.15.68.139 (talk) 07:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

To administrators, please add the phrase "unconventional warfare"
To administrators, please add the phrase "unconventional warfare" to the list of descriptions as to what the Ninja actually does. Because this phrase along with guerilla warfare both represent an accurate description as to what the Ninjas are trained to do. Gracias!


 * No. Unconventional warfare and relation to ninjas will need to be explained before being applicable anywhere in this article. User5802 (talk) 06:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Changing image of Ninja
I propose that we change the image or picture of the Ninja in the introduction to the picture of the Ninja that is used in the latest Ninja Gaiden video game. It looks much better than the "old school" picture and epitimizes the essence of a Ninja.
 * I would vote against this. The main topic of this subject is the history of the Ninja, not its influence on pop culture, thus the use of the traditional images is far more appropriate.FLJuJitsu23:46 17 Sept 07

I'd also vote against that idea. Even though there is nothing historical or accurate about this article, we don't need to make the article any more worse than it already is.( Aimoto 16:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC))


 * Can you give a link to the picture on the Ninja gaiden video game? User5802 18:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Surely if ninja had existed they would have looked like anyone else around them, because that is the best way to go unnoticed. (Far better than wearing a unique uniform which may as well be a sign saying "I am a ninja!".) Therefore any picture of any kind of traditional ninja dress or stereotypical ninja is inaccurate. Danikat 20:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ninjas generally wore kimonos like everyone else. The black outfits shown in Hollywood movies were not even invented until Shakespeare's time, long after the Ninja were extinct. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

military typically limited exclusively to males?
While ninja are often depicted as male, and nearly all military and related professions were typically limited exclusively to males I have never before read this. There were quite a few female samurai, some of which were legendary warriors. Though females were looked down upon in the pre-Meiji Restoration Japan, it is not true that they could not in military profession.

Not all ninjas were military. The typical military were called shinobi, who were males. The female warriors were kunochi, who generally focused more on stealth and grace than the shinobi did. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

External links should be changed
This article should be accurate and "professional"; there is no reason to have links to someone's website just because they cosplay. It's just someone advertising for their website (well there are a couple of bad links). Cyborg Ninja 22:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ninjas in Popular culture

 * Removed vandalism User5802 08:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Since it is actually proven that Ninjas existed, maybe we should have a section about Ninjas flipping out and killing people in Popular culture. Those events actually exist, even though they happen to stupid people who deserve to die any way. We could then use Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg KjtheDj 20:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Seriously? - Two-Sixteen.11.222.21 17:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, thats not what I said, someone changed it. It looked like Cheeselor6 did that. He seems to be vandalizing the page. KjtheDj 22:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What I originally said is below:

Since it not actually proven that Ninjas existed, maybe we should have a section about Ninjas in Popular culture. Those actually exist, even though they are fictional characters. We could then use Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg KjtheDj 20:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a big enough list of pop-culture examples. For instance, there are a few global ninja movie releases in development: Ninja Gold, Full-Time Ninjas, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stlfilmwire (talk • contribs) 14:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

There is evidence that ninjas existed. There were two clans of them, historically speaking. There is not overwhelming evidence, and what evidence we do have is hard to find because after the war between the Ninja and the Samurai, the Samurai burned all the scrolls leaving any reference to the Ninja. Also, pop-culture rarely represents the true Ninja culture with any sort of accuracy. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 16:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC))
 * Uh, this is an example of the kind of statement that needs citation if A: you were looking to include anything like this info in the article, and B: even if you want people to take what you're saying as believable in a talk page. I know that it's a talk page, but a lot of the stuff that you say makes me think "What?!?!?" and seems to come completely out of left field.  Your comments on this -talk- page make me reaaaally tempted to just tack "Cite/Prove it" comments after each of them, much less any contributions that you may be considering for the article itself, but I'm holding back because you seem truly interested/enthusiastic about the topic, so please, if you want what you say to be believable, cite some proof, definately if it's something you want to add to the article. Tchalvak (talk) 16:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Your right, it does need citation, however I did not ask anyone to add this to the article without sources (uncited material is already enough of a problem), nor am I asking peole to take my facts as law. That would be stupid. I do plan on citing these statements as soon as I can. Thank you for a having a little bit of patients. Unfortunalty, I am running low on free tiem latly, so it is not easy to find time to go through all my sources, but I will get those as soon as possible. It is not suprising that you find what I have been saying to be far left field. Most of what we know of the ninja, even from seemingly reputable sources are based heavily on modern lore rather than historical fact. I am not trying to offend or anger you, as you seem to be one of the few interested in actual cited fact rather than what seems about right. Once again, thank you for your patients and I will get citations up as quickly as possible. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC))

Picture
Can we please find a better picture than the current lo-res screenshot from Ninja Gaiden? Perhaps a historical painting or etching or something from japan? Bonus Onus 06:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I only put the picture up there just to hold us off till' we got a different one. §†SupaSoldier†§ 15:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I have stacks of ninja pictures both from real ninja (or sure looks like it) to videogame pictures in high resolution. Problem: I'm a noob and don't know how to upload pictures. If someone can teach me quickly I'll give all the ninja you want. Toxic Ninja 01:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Image:Ninja1.jpg
 * Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg

Now that SupaSoldier has showed me how to upload, I've droped off these 2 pictures that could be great for the page, feel free to edit, delete or use em. The top one was found on some random site and the second one is from ninja gaiden. Toxic Ninja 23:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither of those are (verifiably) pictures of a real ninja. Need some historic artwork, stat.

I'm forced to agree. Looking at an article that covers historical ninjas reference pictures including a video game character I've never heard of and an individual in cosplay isn't what I expected. How can we expect anyone to take this article seriously with those? - Time Traveller Jesus 21:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ninja prided themselves on not being seen, those are the closes I have to a real ninja. Toxic Ninja 17:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't know what a real ninja looks like. Flingotravels 21:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

i concur with using historical artwork rather than these modern pop-culture clichés.

Ninja typically wore kimonos much like the Japanese do today. The Ninja culture was similar in many ways to that of Japanese citizens. This includes typical clothing. *Image:Ninja1.jpg is Hollywood. That type of outfit was never used by the Ninja people. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

志能備
"The term 志能備, has been traced as far back as Japan's Asuka period (538-710 AD), when Prince Shotoku is alleged to have employed one of his retainers as a ninja" No one even bothered to state what this means or how to say it in English. This is not a Japanese page, you can't just put kanji in here out of nowhere without any sort of explanation of what it means or how to pronounce it.169.232.102.36 07:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)mfiedor

It's pronounced shinobi, but I don't think that's a correct way of writing the term. It translates as shi(志)=will/determination, no(能)=ability, bi(備)=to possess/to be among, but usually shinobi is written as referred to earlier in the article, with the character for nin(忍). I suspect this kanji is just what someone's word processor threw up when they tried to type in 'shinobi' in Japanese, and would need to see a reference that this was an accepted way of writing shinobi.DrHacky 04:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I should remember that Google is my friend. I've found 志能備 used for shinobi on the Japanese wiki page for Ninja, where it gives it as being used by Prince Shotoku to refer to Ootomo no Hosohito, and in some other places. Finding older versions of the English Ninja page showed that the use here was originally better explained in context, but I guess that was lost over the course of various edits.DrHacky 09:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Bendono- Although the manyogana for shinobi may have been penned by Heguri, there seem to be a large number of claims linking first use of the term to Shotoku (at least on google), the most credible one I could find being this one (quote from Ashida Kim's "Secrets of the Ninja"). Is it possible that Heguri is responsible for that particular kanji, while Shotoku coined the term? The Japanese wiki also attributes it to Shotoku (飛鳥時代には、聖徳太子が、大伴細人（おおとものほそひと）を「志能備（しのび）」として使ったと伝えられる. ), so I'm wondering why you've removed that. I appreciate the research you seem to have done though, it makes my efforts seem quite feeble in comparison. --DrHacky 17:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It is certainly possible that Shōtoku used the term as well. However, no historical references were given. I merely replaced it with a solid reference of almost equal antiquity that can be looked up for further details. If you can quote the specific source that Shōtoku uses the term, feel free to re-add it. Bendono 21:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * (飛鳥時代には、聖徳太子が、大伴細人（おおとものほそひと）を「志能備（しのび）」として使ったと伝えられる. )was written on Bansenshukai and it's known as a myth in Japan. Shotokutaishi was the first person to use Ninja is also a myth.--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Shinobi has come to be the typical way of referring to the male or typical warriors of the ninja. Rather by modern culture or historical reason, I am unsure, but that is the basic use for this word today. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 17:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Historical Accuracy???
Is Stephen Hayes just advertising his own books here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.142.53 (talk) 00:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is pretty much total BS ... it needs a major overhaul to get any from the pop culture idea of ninja and back to it's historical accuracy ... I'll get onto asap The biz 21:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Please do not attack the article calling it BS jerk, a lot of this has been researched and has encyclopedic value. :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  21:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, this article is severly lacking in a major area: the acknowledgement that ninja might not have existed. There is VERY little historical evidence that ninja have ever existed – if any actual evidence at all. This is completely contrary to the samurai, as there was no shortage of broken samurai swords and armor-pieces. The "ninja-to" never even existed until the 1970s – when companies began to capitilize in the growth of asian/martial arts novelty. Much of the ninja is based off of modern speculation and fad and with very few pieces of historical fact – as far as historians are concerned, the ninja never existe, or if they did, they existed in such small numbers, that their existience is not capable of being proved. Anubite 01 19:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

And I will believe all of that when you cite your references and resources! :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  01:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, you both seem to be misunderstanding how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Wikipedia does not prove or disprove things, it gathers together and summarizes stuff from different sources WP:NPOV.  Thus, while I'd love to see some more citations from writers/researchers that are writing about how the historical ninja didn't exist the way that modern popular culture says they did (everything that I've been able to find so far has said that ninja existed, and also said that they were almost nothing like the pop culture image of today.  It's hard to find people willing to do quality research on things that they're arguing don't exist.) that would not be a good reason to delete citations from other sources.  Besides, this article is about "Ninja".  And many aspects of ninja are quite easily proven to exist.  They do exist in popular culture.  A number of researchers believe they existed historically in one form or another.  There are people in japan who show tourists how they think ninja lived and existed.  If you're trying to argue that ninja don't exist, and thus this article shouldn't exist, you're pretty obviously wrong.  Trying to show that there has been research into whether historical instances of "ninja" existed, on the other hand, is perfectly valid, but it doesn't negate the citations already provided in the article. Tchalvak 19:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I am aware of WP:NPOV, I was just disagreeing with the fact that the biz was calling this article BS, and that Anubite01 was using information against the discussion, without cited references. :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  20:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)



here is the central problem with ninja studies: ninja are secret killers, so even if there are hundreds of them, if they are good at their job, we would never know. this diagram helps illustrate that dilemma.

Just think about what that means. if any of us saw a ninj, we would not live to tell about it. and if we did, that "ninja" was a very poor example of a ninja. therefore, no appreciabel ninja information will ever be known. --Ghetteaux 04:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * And yet, despite that logic I think that a majority of modern thinkers shall continue to believe in such invisibles as: dinosaurs, air, outer-space, black holes, and snipers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tchalvak (talk • contribs) 06:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

It's best to disregard or delete such malformed comments as left by Ghetteaux, as this person is probably <15 years old and is most likely gisgruntled at the fact that this article conlflicts with his expert Ninja knowledge. Flingotravels 20:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

a lot of this has been researched and has encyclopedic value ... and I guess using very few references makes the article all correct and thoroughly researched, lol ... Hatsumi is a 'martial artist' not a historian, Hayes is another 'martial artist' whose books are so full of misconceptions and outright falsehoods just to appear all ninja-mystical, but only really trying to make a buck selling as much as he can to young minds who don't know better, and Turnbull's works are being reassessed as their accuracy is highly dubious in some of his texts ... so you guys are saying that dodgy/non-reputable sources are ok to prove the existence of ‘ninja’, when good sources don’t exist to prove their non-existence ... I'll have my thesis done by the middle of the year and it's all about the modern misconceptions/falsehoods about ‘ninja’ and the historical realities of ‘shinobi no mono’ and ‘kusa’ (‘person of stealth’ and ‘stealthy scouts’ respectively). Then I’ll have a lot of accurate info to rewrite this article correctly. The biz 13:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

'''Besides, this article is about "Ninja". And many aspects of ninja are quite easily proven to exist. They do exist in popular culture.''' ... lol, that's why I titled this section 'Historical Accuracy???' Where are ninja quite easily proven to exist? In movies, manga, anime and games of course, not in Japanese historical periods though. The biz 13:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Like someone said earlier "The reason there isn't a lot of information is because Ninja were good at their job....and if they weren't we would know more." Also if you read the book The Art of War by Sun Tzu many ancient Japanese strategies included Spies or Stealthy Assassins. So they did exist but there isn't a whole lot of "factual" information about them. §†SupaSoldier†§ 17:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I would like to make known that my previous response was not advocating that this article was completely unsound and totally unfounded, but rather misleading. There is very little on the controversy and debate of the ninja and its origins. For as long as there lacks strong evidence that the ninja existed (I have yet to see any primary source beyond the etemology of the word), there should be an entry here that makes note of the ninja's intangibility and plausible fabrication.

Wikipedia is a place where people come to start their research, I believe. And though we need not college-level thesises and what not here, we should be nonbiased. And only including evidence that supports to existeince of ninjas, when there is plausible thought to the contrary, IS biased. I apologize that I lack any sources to back my earlier claims, but I stated what I did only from passing knowledge that I acquired from several history-buffs that I'm acquainted with. My intent with posting is to clear up the misconception that ninja are merely distorted figures from Japan's history and to create some doubt that they are wholly factual. Think of it like the monster squid. Anubite 01 16:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Anubite, you make a great analogy. ninja, like the Architeuthis, are obscured in hidden reaches, but loom large in the mind. Ghetteaux 02:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Nuts, thebiz, you stole my idea for a thesis when (if) I eventually go back to school and get my PhD in Japanese history. I'd be interested in seeing it when you're done though--one thing that I think has been sorely needed in Japanese studies is a thorough debunking of the ninja myth, though no reputable scholars seem to even want to touch the topic. Masakado 01:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Although I support the fact that ninja did exist(and exists now), I must ask why the following sentence is a prove: Also if you read the book The Art of War by Sun Tzu many ancient Japanese strategies included Spies or Stealthy Assassins.  The Art of War by Sun Tzu is a Chinese book about strategies on war.  It did mentioned and highly rated spies and told the leaders to treat them well, however, it got nothing to do with ninjas and assassins.  At that time, China and Japan are not related, have no political relationship, no trading or anything.  It is highly doubted that Japanese culture started before the end of the next dynasty in China. (Where some historical evidence points to the escaped people ran from China to Japan and destroyed the original people of Japan)  Unless sources could be cited saying the idea of ninja comes from that book, I do not suggest using that as an arguement.  If anyone askes for historical evidence on NON-pop culture, the book: 萬川集海written by Fujibayashi Nagatonokami in AD1676, consist of 22+1 volume(labeled 1~22 and side 1).  These series of book talks about Ninja and Ninjitsu, the writer himself can be tracked by the Iga ryu as one of the 上忍三家(3 families of hi-ninja) of Iga.  I do not consider a written work from 1676 as pop-culture. MythSearchertalk 03:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Just because it was written in 1676 doesn't make it historical proof. The Mansen Shukai (万川集海) is not history; just read the table of contents and you can tell that much. It's a compilation of "ninjutsu" techniques, kind of like a martial arts manual. Considering that the term "ninjutsu" wasn't even really coined until after the Edo period started, that makes it suspect to start with. Remember, specialized martial art "schools" in Japan with their "kata" and "waza" were quite rare pre-Edo, and barring a handful, didn't exist--people trained in overall military matters (horsemanship, spearmanship, riflery, etc) like modern "boot camp" instead of specializing in one "jutsu" exclusively. It wasn't until the peace of the Edo (and hence, the lack of a need for any "ninja" in the first place) that martial arts changed from pure military training to the kind of strict codified martial arts we see today. That doesn't make the Mansen Shukai useless--it's valuable in learning how the Sengoku/Momoyama equivalent of "special ops" would be undertaken, but it doesn't make a single step towards proving the existence of ninja clans training in the mountains and hiring their services out to whatever samurai would take them. Nobody denies that ninja in the form of "regular samurai performing espionage missions" existed; it's the "separate" clans of "ninja" that focused solely on training in "ninjutsu" and hiring themselves out like mercenaries that is highly suspect. Masakado 20:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I did not suggest ninja clans training in the mountains and hiring themselves out in the above. I only claim that they existed not only in the popular culture.  However, what you have stated here can be simply put:  Samurai have clans(families)  In ancient Japan, the same family serves the same general family, this is not pop culture, it is in fact historically proven.  They view their bloodline of their family as the most important thing to carry along.(Heretically rule)  And thus, if ninja is a type of samurai, it is just more likely that they serve as a clan instead of individuals.  No, they do not hire themselves out, in fact they should be loyal to who their fathers are loyal to, unless they became a traitor of their family.  You said nobody denies ninja existed, however, go read the Katana article history, at least 1 editor doubt their existence. MythSearchertalk 04:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Considering the extensive debate that we are having here and considering that it appears that the debate stems from several sources outside of Wikipedia, might I suggest that we have a section that talks about the controversy surrounding their existance which includes citing sources which say that Ninja might not have existed. No, we can no more disprove of ninja existing than we can unrefutably prove their existance, but researchers are fully capable of putting issues into question and if it is a subject as widely talked about and suggested as you guys claim, then there will be an article SOMEWHERE that you can reference. If you can't find such an article, it becomes original research and not worthy of being addressed within the context of this Wikipedia article.--Forgottenlord 14:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Addendum: certainly, I had not heard of this controversy before I read the talk page, so if it actually does exist and is considered a valid contraversy, then it probably should be documented.--Forgottenlord 14:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Now, I'm just some random guy passing by, but weren't ninja weapons/tools originally farming tools? So it would be harder to tell ninja tools from farming tools. Ninja probably weren't anything like pop-culture, but there still could've been outlaws that tried to do assasinations. Besides, this argument seems to me to assume that ninja had to have accepted standards and only did assasintion missions. 75.100.78.249 06:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the old "Japanese martial arts/ninja weapons were farming tools" chestnut is an urban myth. But yes, there are very few reliable sources on ninja, and way too many fake sources, making it rather difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. --Ashenai 06:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What says that shinobi do not exist? I think the constant flow of so-called 'modern ninjas' and all the horribly cheesy movies and games have made people think that shinobi are simply legend. Many historical accounts speak of shinobi. An example of a historical-proven shinobi group would be Oniwabanshu(or it may be reffered to as Oniwaban group).

Also, think about it this way - If modern day special forces can infiltrate well-guarded sites without leaving a trace of themselves or their allegience, then why couldn't some in the Edo period(or earlier) sneak into a mansion or Japanese-style castle without any security systems and only melee weapons and possibly bows(were the best warrior wins a duel, not the one with the fully-automatic assault rifle). I really don't think that shinobi are out of the realm of possibility.

But really, let's say they existed. If they did, then didn't they accomplish their objective of identity concealment and trickery if we are here thinking that they were simply folklore?

Really, all of this 'magic' that is considered either folklore or cheesy Hollywood special effects and stunts, is really technically possible. Not through strength or agility, and no, not through 'magic'. It is possible through simple tricks(blinding or disappearing can be as simple as sand flung into eyes or a distraction that makes the enemy turn away as you jump to cover).

Now, I'm not some shinobi fanboy here, defending shinobi. I simply want this article to be right, because it seems like it is leaning towards "Ninjas don't exist!" more the NPOV.

One last thing - I think we need to find better references. When our references are two books, one from 1981 and the other from 2003, a article off of a site called "How Stuff Works", and an article under the cinema category on the site - we have a problem. 24.56.241.134 21:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this discussion is full of crap. Jesus. I like how the biz tells us about his supposed thesis and expertise when we have no idea who he is or what his credentials are.

By the way, most Japanese schools of swordsmanship have their origins in the Sengoku period, Masakado, so I don't know where you get this "schools of martial arts were rare pre-Edo" nonsense.--63.231.26.82 08:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

How about define what a ninja is. And maybe something about ninjitsu wouldnt go amiss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.43.217 (talk) 21:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm strongly of the opinion that 'ninjas', as they are portrayed in pop-culture and in the many ninjistu books, are fabricated. However, I wasn't as sure about the actual history of Ninjas. However, this site has made me start to believe they didn't exist at all as nobody is providing any serious references! Where are the history books? And no, an Osprey book doesn't count as serious history (give me a break). Pmw2cc (talk) 21:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You guys are missing a few details in all of this. There is some evidence that ninja existed, and even some reliable information on how they existed. You guys are assuming that because it is not easy to find historical evidence they must not have existed. This is not necessarily true. Most of the discussion here shows a lot of pop-culture mixed into your facts. In that time, Japan was ruled by the many Japanese Daiyos. The Ninja was another group of people just like the Japanese. While there were many different Japanese clans, there were only two Ninja clans (I cannot think of the names off the top of my head but I will look for them.). Because the Japanese ruled Japan for obvious reasons, the Ninja were outcasts and considered enemies of the state. The Japanese and the Ninja both had a group of warriors, the Samurai and the Shinobi respectively. The Ninja were not all warriors, just as the Japanese were not all warriors. Also, the Shinobi did not pride themselves on their stealth as much as you guys have claimed. It was well known that the Ninja existed. Eventually things escalated to the point of war between the two cultures. The Samurai had almost every advantage in the book, and in the end it was not much more than a slaughter. To avoid having to deal with the Ninja again, all Ninja were wiped out, women and children included. After the war, the Samurai were ordered to erase all trace of the Ninja culture, sort of a declaration that the Japanese people were citizens of Japan, not the Ninja. One distinct method the Samurai employed to do this is burning all scrolls with any reference to the ninja. Our best historical reference to the Ninja are probably scrolls not found by the Samurai. These scrolls would have been well hidden, so it is logical that we have not found many. I do remember finding several actual reliable proofs of the existence of ninjas in my many years of researching the topic. I cannot think of the exact sources on the top of my head, as I have looked at a lot of different references. I will try to get more specific sources as soon as I can. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC))


 * Uh, most of what you're saying has the telltale signs of Original research, or else you need to take a long, hard look at whatever you've been reading. Cite sources, don't just make claims.  The same applies to when editing the article.  Tchalvak (talk) 07:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I am planning on finding sources to back them up. I just need a little time to go through and find them. Also, most things people have said in this discussion have had next to no citations as evidence. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 15:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC))
 * That's true, it's a talk page, no-one has to cite what they write on this part, but whereas a lot of the stuff that has been said before is useful discussion to solidify the main topic, the stuff that you're saying are things that I've never heard of before and seems misinformed, yet you seem to actually believe them unlike people who are just trolling, so I'm suggesting you find some sources to support your claims, because they're completely unbelievable otherwise. After all, that's the main problem with the article itself: claims made by people who come along and put in unsourced original research.  Tchalvak (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone mentioned earlier in this discussion that the pop-culture version of ninjas is a ninja too, even if it is not historically accurate, and pointed out that this is simply the "ninja" page. Perhaps we should split this article into two articles, "Historical Ninja" and "Pop-Culture Ninja." (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC))
 * There is one, though it could probably be beneficial to have it be more blatantly visible. Tchalvak (talk) 16:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, until you said that I had not noticed that. Perhaps we should make the link more obvious on this page and remove the other pop-culutre material. That information belongs in the pop-culture ninja page. Is there any disagreement on that?

Look, given the amount of time that has passed on this complaint about accuracy without action, I'm planning to add some text to the effect of, "The historical record of Ninjas is extremely uncertain, due to a lack of reliable records about Ninja organization, training, timelines, and methods. Even the actual historical existence of Ninjas is uncertain. The historical contents of this article are, therefore, highly speculative." Pmw2cc (talk) 14:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, not surprisingly somebody, Ohnoitsjamie, reverted my edit. I don't wish to engage in a revert war but my original complaint stands unanswered. Please bring the discussion here Ohnoitsjamie. Pmw2cc (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Raises hand Meekly* Kay umm... I may have a half-decent reference that could be used to reinforce the facts in the article or just completely re-write the article, I dunno, I'm just trying to be helpful.  I really am curious as to WEATHER OR NOT NINJAS EXIST!  That's why I came to wikipedia, and well, upon not being able to find the answer here, with the current article the way it is, I started looking around by myself.

http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/archives/ninja.php

The person writing the essay sites examples from some ancient texts, and well, it's not the word of God, but it's something, maybe. Dr. Ransom (talk) 1:47 AM, April 7nth, 2009 (UTC)

Etymology section needs adding to
It needs this bit added to the end of the Etymology section, from the Ninjutsu article, because it details another meaning of 'nin': "Although the popular view is that ninjutsu is the art of secrecy or stealth, actual practitioners consider it to mean the art of enduring - enduring all of life's hardships. The word nin carries both these meanings."

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.12.195.70 (talk) 22:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

Oniwaban (お庭番) is another name for Shinobi that might be included. Generalklagg 01:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank You for the information Generalklagg, I have added it to the Etymology Section of the Article. :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  21:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There's also suppa, rappa and mitsumono for ninja, and nokizaru for female ninja, from some manga glossaries. Japanese wiki also gives toppa, ukagami and kusa among others, while the Lone Wolf and Cub movies often refer to them as Iga-mono (=men of Iga). DrHacky 09:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Should shinobi be written as 忍, as the article currently shows, or as 忍び, as used on the Japanese wiki page? Similarly they have 忍の者 as 忍びの者. Is 忍=shinobi correct usage? DrHacky 09:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Protection
Someone got through the vandal protection(66.198.185.107 13:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Yeah, I noticed that! The Vandalism was still there after it had been reverted! :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  19:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I removed all traces of Vandalism on the article. :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  19:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The vandalism is still there. And it is protected, so someone needs to remove it.

Strange line
"Ninjas were banned in Japan in the 1600s," from the looks of it this is vandalism, sure most of the things ninjas do (kill, steal, destroy) are illegal but I don't think ninjas in particular are "banned." I'm removing this until someone can find a citation. Toxic Ninja 03:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Great thinking Toxic. I don't believe this is true, but if a cited reference is given then it will be put back. :^) §†SupaSoldier†§  06:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like it is based on the idea of 'outlawed samurai' popularized in several anime series'; it was supposed to have taken place in the Edo period (17th century). 24.129.122.147 22:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ninjas were not people bent on killing, stealing, and destroying. That is pop-culture speaking. They were a civilization just like the Japanese, only they lived in Mountains because the Japanese ruled the island. The Ninja were eventually declared enemies of the state and were, in a sense, banned from any sort of trade in Japanese stores and such, but I will try and find some good citation for that. Citation or not however, it is still poorly worded and should be modified. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC))


 * You keep on saying stuff that pretty obviously has no basis in any kind of literature. The historical concept of a ninja is a -subset- of Japanese culture, just like ninja were themselves, not something seperate and "in Mountains" somewhere.  "Banned from any sort of trade in Japanese stores"?  What kind of happy rainbow-land are you envisioning while the rest of us are talking about militaristic feudal japan?  Cite or don't make this kind of assertion.  Tchalvak (talk) 07:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Whats to say that they did not live in mountains and were never "banned" from stores. These claims need citations as well. Being "banned" from stores was just a little bit before the war (one of the escalating causes of the war). And, yes, I am planning on finding sources. It has been a few months since I have looked at many of my sources, so I will need to go back through them to find the right ones. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 15:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC))


 * I think the proper word is "exiled." But none of that matters until a citation is found.Toxic Ninja (talk) 08:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Image suggestion
How about using the two images on the right with the accompanying captions? I agree with User:Bottlecapninja that having a poor quality photo of someone cosplaying (or whatever the verb may be) is not very, shall I say, encyclopedic. The video game image, I think, makes for a decent replacement of that and might be placed in the "Modern Costume" section. As for the main image to be placed at the top of the article, just looking around a bit, I thought the upper one might be decent, since it is an image of a ninja in the original sense (or at least more so than the video game one).

-Nameneko 03:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This image still doesn't seem extremely accurate in terms of what the common ninja would have looked like, but in my attempts to find a better one, I have come up disappointingly short. Perhaps we should use a picture of tools and weapons commonly used by ninja. Those haven't been quite as twisted by pop-culture. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Perhaps a citation upon the existence of this debate should be mentioned as a modern day argument, but should not be mentioned as a serious article. If you rely want to do that go to Uncyclopedia. -Aryeonos —Preceding undated comment added 06:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC).

Ninja vs. Pirate
Should we add some information on the great ninja vs. pirate debate? Eyeball kid 04:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC) slady

Please, No. (Edit: Someone edited my post, DIDN'T THEY?) Cronus Zephyr 01:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Not even a small mention? Just a reference to the whole pop-culture debate? It does exist, therefore, it makes sence to at the very least mention it. At least one short sentence. 75.100.78.249 06:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think the "debate" is significant enough to be worth mentioning. This isn't exactly AYBABTU. I don't think it has ever been mentioned in the mainstream press, for instance, or even on major news blogs like Slashdot. If you can find sources to support its notability, though, please do. :) --Ashenai 06:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to hear the Ninja vs. pirate debate User5802 06:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it should be in this article but it is worth mentioning that the NVP debate has in fact been mentioned in the mainstream press, assuming you count Wired and NPR. aeonite (talk) 18:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Absolutely not. Leushenko (talk) 12:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

While I agree whole-heartedly that this debate should not be mentioned in the article, I am curious what it is. In my years of researching Ninja I can honestly say I have never heard of this debate. If you could give me a little insight to what sounds like a disturbing interpretation of pop-culture, it would be appreciated. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Fact-of-the-matter: if you look up pirates vs. ninjas on YouTube, you will find countless videos debating which is superior. Probably not worth much time, but some of them are fun. Cadwaladr (talk) 23:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

intro paragraph
"Since the art of stealth killing leaves no witness, the truth about the ninja will likely remain hidden." This sounds like a tagline to a video game, not an encyclopedia article. Anyone else think it should be changed? Jodamn 03:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I second that. MythSearchertalk 07:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The intro paragraph still is not very accurate. Ninja were not trained for stealth. Ninja was a society who's warriors usually relied on stealth simply because the raw numbers in the Samurai ranks made any other method of war both pointless and suicidal, but there is much more to the Ninja culture than just the stealth that the Shinobi and Kunochi often used. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 21:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Fix this page!
Looks like someone has destroyed this page. Could we get this back to it's fromer self?

Chipmunkchewer 19:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)Chipmunkchewer


 * Vandalism seems to be fixed now --h2g2bob (talk) 23:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Scott Turbeville is . . . legendary?
Who is this guy? The only place he's cited on the web is this article. And I've never heard of him in rl. I also find it really hard to believe that anyone legendary -- aside from Mark Twain -- wears white suits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.57.131.22 (talk) 17:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

What about Tom Wolfe? Pmw2cc (talk) 22:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
I edited these lines, they seem to me to be vandalism-

"A blood ninja is a ninja who seeks to wreak vengence on someone usually through death." -This seems like ninja-fanboy guff. If "blood ninja" do exist, then the line should be rewritten to a more appropriate tone.

"Also a small ring called a wadgeobo worn on a ninja's finger called a shobo would be used for hand-to-hand combat." -Google had no hits for "wadgeobo", it doesn't look Japanese, and it doesn't fit the sentence. If it is legit, it should be rewritten.

And I think this page should be locked again, it shows 50 edits in the past week, mostly vandals and reverts.DrHacky 17:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I've just requested this page for semi-protection due to vandalism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection. Yay me. --DrHacky 16:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Uhhhhh
You do realize this article is nonsense right? It doesn't site any reputable sources and is filled with made up junk. I could go through and erase the whole thing because insourced claims can be unilaterally erased. 82.81.53.232 21:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I fail to see why an article sourced from a dictionary is nonsense and not reputable. The intro needs some reference, but is mainly just common sense, you can pretty much get that much out of any good Japanese dictionary.  The Etymology part got a little unref stuff, but still, most art just directly from a dictionary.  Other parts, well, I agree with your point of them being poorly ref, but still, I fail to see why you can just erase the whole thing.  Any sections from 2~7? maybe, other parts? no. MythSearchertalk 13:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In an article like this one common sense is quite likely heavily clouded with pop-culture. On a topic where people know more from pop-culture than they do from actual historical facts, common sense should never be used as a reference. Also, a dictionary ussually tells you the definition of a word, and not it's historical background. There are a lot of words in every language that have a different connotation and denotation. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 22:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Ninja toe
One of the weapons that helped the ninja was the trusty sword. The thing that is really interesting is they did not always have to kill their appoint when facing them. All they had to do was make a single cut because the sword was poisoned. their for giving the appoint a slow and painful death. The ninja toe was also shorter then the katana for closer combat. The blade is also supposed to be stronger and thicker so that it can with stand hard blows when used single handedly. other weapon and Ninja history coming soon. Shinobi Koga Ninjutsu Sensei.
 * ...do you mean a ninja tō? A "ninja toe" is...the toe of a ninja.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 17:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Where are you getting your information? That is a much different understanding than I have. I am not saying it is wrong (it very well could be right.), but I would like to know where your information comes from. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 22:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Chinese Ninja
User:212.51.199.173 have added that Ninjas originate from China. Reverting. --Kakurady 23:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Guest: This is not true. Ninja originated in Japan but their creation may have been influensed by china. This is like saying that islamic terrorists are ninja which is of course not true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

+The origen of the Ninja is unknown. Chinese influence is speculation.

Even the creation is not influensed by China. Ninja originated and created in central of Japan. It's the result of guerrilla war. --Kogakureninjin (talk) 14:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

"...in an enemy country"
Parisbynight has taken issue with the wording "enemy country." I think that it is referring to other feudal territories or fiefdoms as countries, following the Japanese usage of the word "kuni", which usually translates as "country" but is also used for "fiefdom". This section then doesn't need a fact check, but perhaps a rewording if others find it confusing, although I must say I didn't have a problem with it. --DrHacky 05:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have been bold and reworded the sentence to address the concerns mentioned above and removed the tag. Trugster | Talk 15:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Please include a "dispelling myths" or "myths" section in this article
I actually read some of the books cited in the sources (two of them actually), and you do not include the fact the ninja were about using their weapons only as a last resort. The Ninja were not warriors; they were spies. Ninjutsu, their martial art, was geared more towards escaping from someone, than actually overcomming them in battle. Makes perfect sense to me; if I am inside a castle, all alone, completely surrounded by guards ready adn willing to kill me, I'm going to want to be trained in an art that will let me get the hell away from them if I ever get caught, which of course, if you were a good ninja, it wouldn't happen. Still, as a "just in case" scenario it makes more sense to train someone to be able to run away and escape from a place if things went bad. If you can't escape, naturally you hara kiri yourself so no one knows who you work for.

I was dissapointed with the emphasis on weaponry, and how the article seems to cater to the popular Hollywood image, both here, and in Japan. Even the Japanese themselves use the more exiting, popular image. One of these days I would love to see a movie where real ninja tactics are used. Personally, I like real ninja better; they gathered information by manipulating people, but, without the people ever thinking, or realizing, they were being manipulated. Personally I wish I could do that; as a corporate spy, I could make a lot of money that way. They would use girl ninja (kunoichi) to seduce and.... uh.... extract information from a given lord.

However, emphasis and point made; violence and actual breaking and entering were only used as a last resort. Has anyone who typed or contributed to this article read "The Art of War?"

Espionage tactics of the orient call for using as little resources as possible, taking as little risks as possible, and being as EFFICIENT as possible. What is a more efficient way to gather information, having a hot chick screw the brains out of your intended target, during pillow talk getting him to spill his guts, or, breaking and entering?

The ninja did carry out assasinations, but, again, such tactics were done only as a last resort. I ask whoever wrote this to please reconsider catering to the popular image. The Ninja were skilled at breaking into a place and not being caught, but they would not pull that kind of stuff just to be macho. Have any of you ever taken Karate, or Judo? Remember sensei's lesson? "only use this as a last resort, when you have exhausted all others...."

That lesson doesn't just have to do with ethics, there is a practical reason; the most efficient wayt to not get hurt, is to not get into a fight in the first place. The Asian martial arts, all of them, are all about efficiency. The Ninja were no different. If, through Kunoichi's vagina, they could gather information, that was the most efficient way to do it.

Violence is avoided, not so much because of ethics, but for practical reasons. Use breaking and entering, and you risk the lives of "soldier" ninja you could be using, for example, for espionage jobs requiring disguise. The Ninja were, very much, followers of the teachings of "The Art of War." In a conflict, the so-called "art of fighting without fighting," that is, winning a conflict by using your head, was the best way to win.

Real Ninja were all about chess matches. With the ninja, everything was a chess match with them; they gathered information, conducted espionage, they did all these things, but only rarely did they ever have to employ breaking and entering.

Please consider re-reading two of the sources and putting this stuff in.

Reply:Ha you must not like the old movies. Try shinobi no mono.

Section on weapons
I believe this article really needs a section with a list of the most important weapons of the ninja (shuriken and so on).

ICE77 -- 84.223.76.36 12:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The article is actually almost stub-rate. And the category is called "Ninjas". Oh lawd. At least I did the popular culture article right (except roughly one million totally campy movies in the 1980s). Maybe even this one should be divided (separate for the videogames?). --HanzoHattori 19:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Ninja are an ancient crew of subversives
The actual origin of the so called ninja is as decietful and reprobative acrobats and rapists. Even today this is their primary specialization. The current Master Assassin is Masaaki Hatsumi and he knows this though he does not publicly aknowledge it. His reasons are quite obvious (deviousness and reprehensibility of character.) Some of his apprentices are quite aware of these facts and keep quiet about it. All of this has always been known to the ninja and is taught only verbally from master to apprentice to keep from being found out.

As with most reprobates, the assassins accuse their victims as a primary part of their deceptions and deviance.

Boyceryan 04:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Awesome troll. --HanzoHattori 19:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

+He's got style. -Dash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.123.214.254 (talk) 06:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

G.I. Joe
Can you please add the two ninjas in the G.I. Joe animated series and comic book to the "In Popular Culture" sections. Their names were "Storm Shadow" and "Snake Eyes". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Efrainf (talk • contribs) 17:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_in_popular_culture#G.I._Joe --HanzoHattori 19:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Daimyos were ninjas?
"There are a few people and groups of people regarded as having been potential historical ninja from approximately the same time period. It is rumored that some of the higher-ranking daimyos and shoguns were in fact ninja, and exploited their role as ninja-hunters to deflect suspicion and obscure their participation in the 'dishonorable' ninja methods and training."

This doesn't have any citation and seems kind of, uh, silly. There were rumors? From who? Who was rumored to be a ninja and what evidence was there to back it up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.39.174.1 (talk) 18:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

+Daimyos were generals and provisional lords. They rarely ever got their hands dirty. -Dash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.123.214.254 (talk) 06:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Good Internet source

 * http://home.earthlink.net/~ninja80/id1.html --HanzoHattori 08:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please modify the link of Iga Ninja Museum, of External links. The current URL is http://iganinja.jp/en/index.html --61.214.234.106 (talk) 15:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"Category:Ninjas"
I guess most of the people here agree the category name is wrong? How about we change it AGAIN(!) back to "ninja"?

I'm asking, because I have no idea, how to do this. If you can help, please tell me on my talk page.

Why I want to do this:


 * 1) The main article is "ninja", not "ninjas". There's also article AND category of "samurai", not "samurais".
 * 2) The category name was originally "ninja". It was then (years ago) changed to "ninjas", then soon decided to be changed back to "ninja", and recently, against the claer MAJORITY(!) of votes, changed into "ninjas" again - because nominator heard "ninjas" in the French-US movie Taxi 2 (I'm not making this up).
 * 3) Any ninja expert (or even amatour in the good sense of this word) will use "ninja".
 * 4) Even in the popular use, "ninja" is more popular almost 10-fold(!) more popular word than "ninjas".

Thanks. --HanzoHattori 08:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree; "ninjas" is abominable grammar, and you're right on all points. I suppose a request for comment would be the way to go, to get a consensus to back up the change.  Making the change is more difficult, by editing all articles in the categories ("ninjas" and "fictional ninjas").  -- AvatarMN 10:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

NOTE : Doing a wiki query of NINJA and NINJAS results in the same page - probably a good thing otherwise every singular name could also have a plural name page GrandPoohBah 31-Oct-2007 —Preceding comment was added at 00:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Citations are terrible
OK cleaned up a few citations, but I know nothing about historical ninjas so I didn't try to do more than reformat. Well, except one. A person's personal homepage describing the etymology of their online persona does not count as a reliable source under WP:RS. Removed that one. I mean seriously you guys. Wellspring (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. The writing and citations on this page are really sad for a page that is part of 4 different projects. Slavlin (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * WikiProject for the Correction of Japanese Related Articles - a WikiProject that is based aruond Correcting Japanese Related Articles. Akira-otomo (talk) 17:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Still looks bad. Added "refimprove", statements such as "The assassination, espionage, and infiltration tasks of the ninja led to the development of specialized technology in concealable weapons and infiltration tools." or "Ninja also employed a variety of weapons and tricks using gunpowder. Smoke bombs and firecrackers were widely used to aid an escape or create a diversion for an attack. They used timed fuses to delay explosions" really needs sources. User5802 (talk) 07:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: Source Citations
Many of the topics in sections 2-5 are discussed at varying lengths in the rather fancifully-titled "Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan", by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook (Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1973). While I can't vouch for the veracity of the sections relating to "ninja" in the book, the rest of the covered material is meticuluously sourced and more accurate than is the norm in martial arts-related books. At any rate, this is my first foray into any kind of contribution here at Wikipedia, and given the spirited nature of the discussion, I thought I'd toss this out to the general public instead of having the gall to go wading through an article edit. TalosLBM (talk) 05:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Power Rangers: Ninja Storm
Why was it deleted the frist time I added it?Abomasnow (talk) 11:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * On that topic why do we even have the Ninjas In Popular Culture section at all? The topic is covered well in its own article, and it, in my opinion, just seems to water down the value of the main article to have any kind of listing of popular culture icons in it. What do you guys think? --Popoi (talk) 18:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that the main article -really- needs to keep it's own "Ninjas in Popular Culture" section because otherwise any attempt at keeping only historical information will get obliterated as people add pop culture interpretation into the core of the article. A blatantly visible Pop culture section keeps that division clearer. Tchalvak (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I am a big fan of Power Rangers: Ninja Storm, but has almost no historic fact if any. It is a great show, but has no business in a historical article. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 22:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Edit:"Angry Ninjitsu Practitioner!" Power rangers Get the F outta here what are you 5yr's old? power rangers and show's like it are just crap and have no bearing on what a real "Ninja" is like most of this wiki and it's fallacies !! the whole wiki here in has no bearing of what a REAL ninja is and nor will ANY of you know for real Ninjitsu is an Art not Shared with Commoner's such as yourselves or Stephen Fake Hayes... ok Ninjitsu and the Ninja has an always will be a secret clan passed on from father to son. and not for white devil's to know or learn.what white devils do know is only stolen and that is all.and this wiki making ninja out to be no more than Hired assassins ?? Samurai where but mere slaves to a master. ninja free spirits! so learn a lot more before you post Useless and crap information about NINJA! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.175.38 (talk) 21:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah... We know this page is in serious need of validity. We are trying to fix it. The fact that the secrets of the ninja may not be in our possession does not mean that we don't know anything about them. They are a historical society, and thus some knowledge is known about them. Also nothing you just said is a suprise to any of us. We know this, and we are pretty well aware that Stephen Hayes is not a cultural expert like he was portrayed to be. Basically, we know the page needs help. We are working on fixing it. If you want to help, then provide acurate information with good citation to be added. If all you want to do is troll, go elsewhere. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.158.36.86 (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Evaluation
We need to evaluate this page bit by bit. In my opinion, we should have a number of people who are very knowledgeable on the subject step up to do this. They should each go through the entire article and leave a conclusion on each section, with all a list of all accurate and inaccurate details found. Perhaps a full scale overhaul on this article is unnecessary as well. There a lot of good things on this page, but they are very confused with all the garbage around them. Any ideas on how to fix the article? (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 22:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC))
 * In short, add citations from reputable sources. Delete blatantly un-sourced material.  Seriously, when I first came upon the article, I ended up ordering a book on the topic simply to have something to cite.  The more we have citations from worthwhile sources, the less of a problem the content will become. Tchalvak (talk) 08:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It is hard to disagree on that. I will look at all the information on this page, and try and find at least one dependable source for each fact (After of course going back and posting citations for anything I have said in discussion.). I encourage others to do the same. Also Tchalvak, what book did you order? I'm just curious. (Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC))
 * This one --> Turnbull, Stephen (February 2003). Ninja AD 1460-1650. Osprey Publishing. ISBN 1-84176-525-2.  I don't recommend it if you're looking for depth, because it was so short, (I ordered it online and either missed or just wasn't able to tell from the description that it was so thin). Tchalvak (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Speculation and Conjecture
In the history of Japan, a ninja (忍者, ninja?) was someone specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war. The methods used by ninja included assassination, espionage, and a variety of martial arts.

In the Japanese culture, they were usually trained for dangerous missions.[citation needed]Their exact origins are still unknown. Their roles may have included sabotage, espionage, scouting and assassination missions as a way to destabilize and cause social chaos in enemy territory or against an opposing ruler, perhaps in the service of their feudal rulers (daimyo, shogun), or an underground ninja organization waging guerilla warfare.[citation needed]

Seriously someone needs to get some citations, that whole first phrase sounds like it was ripped from Ultimate Power....I was half expecting to see "and the flip out and kill everyone" thrown in there somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.193.93.2 (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

etymology of 忍者
is wrong. it's translation is 'one who bears', and probably is more reflective of the origins of the ninja profession than its preferred methodology. my guess, based solely on the techniques described in the article and on my knowledge of the chinese writing, is that ninja got their origins as protectors of their village during warring states periods in japan, making them 'those who bear' the burden of protecting and dying. anyway, this whole article reeks of nonsense and misrepresentation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.85.210 (talk) 01:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Ninja History link suggestion
Lost History-Ninja LoreTokarski21 (talk) 17:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Response to Lost History-Ninja Lore There are many errors on "Lost History-Ninja Lore"--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

First use
According to Oxford English Dictionary, the word ninja was first used in print in English language by Ian Fleming in his novel You Only Live Twice:

"The men..are now learning to be ninja or ‘stealers-in’."

Tavilis (talk) 14:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture
Is there really none other avaible? :) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Stephen K. Hayes
I'd like to add Stephen K. Hayes to the references list, especially since someone mentions his book in the article. I have some info to add from the book, but I can't 'cause the page is protected. Anyways, the info for the book is Title: The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art. Stephen K. Hayes. Rutland, Vermont; Tokyo, Japan: The Charles E. Tuttle Company Inc. 1981. ISBN: 0-8048 1374-4. Sorry for lack of proper formatting. Tavish 05:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Specialized weapons and tactics
There is this part:

"The shuriken is a weapon that was barely ever used for throwing. It would be stuck into a wall or the ground to be used as a distraction. Sometimes they would be dipped in poison, but this usually backfired if the user cut himself accidentally.

Many ninja disguised themselves as farmers so their weapons (the kama) could be used as weapons and farming implements, their shuriken were also coated with poison so when in direct combat with another the ninja could throw the shuriken and the injury would seem minor but if left untreated (depending on the strength of the poison) it could be fatal."

So, the ninja were clumsy with shuriken, but it's okay if they're disguised as farmers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.148.130 (talk) 21:37, 3 September 2008 (UTC) It should be noted that the shuriken were not actually weapons on their own but made from coins washers and other circular items. And not always was poison the case but actually Tetini from rust, when a shuriken would be left in the ground or mud then retrieved for later use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryeonos (talk • contribs) 06:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Wikipedia
I compared to the Japanese wikipedia Ninja page and found this English version of Ninja page is mostly myths. How about just translationg from the Japanese wikipedia page?--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

For serious researchers, here're some references listed on Japanese wikipedia.--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 15:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC) o 正忍記 o 忍術応義伝 o 忍秘伝 o 万川集海 o 川村家文書 o 旧事諮問録 o 徳川宗家文書 o 新見伊賀守正路日記 o 江戸城お庭番（中公新書） o 忍者（新人物往来社） o 忍者の生活（雄山閣）#
 * Ninjutsusho
 * Historical records
 * Modern books
 * If you could post the Japanese version, ideally the original and the translation, as a sub pages here it would help immensely in disspelling some of the myths in this and some related articles. --Nate1481 07:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok but it'll take long time and my English isn't good enough to translate all the Japanese so I hope if someone correct my sentences.--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 09:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

忍者（にんじゃ）とは、鎌倉時代から江戸時代の日本で、大名や領主に仕え諜報活動や暗殺を仕事としていたとされる、個人ないし集団の名称. その名は日本国内にとどまらず、世界的にも良く知られている.
 * Ninja is the name of indivisuals or groups who involved espionage and assassination for their lords or Daimyo from Kamaura period to Edo period.The name is well known outside of Japan.

1.Overview

領主に仕えての隠密行動を主体とする集団. 武士や足軽といった身分の集団とはまた別の立場にあった.
 * The groups which mainly take secret activity for the lords. They were different from Bushi or Ashigaru. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harada 3nosuke (talk • contribs) 09:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Plural: ninjae
In the last years it has been more and more common in the Internet to see people using "ninjae" as a plural of "ninja". While it is clearly a neologism used more or less as a joke (using a latin-like plural with a japanese word), i think it could be worth mentioning. --Lo&#39;oris (talk) 12:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

'Elite' warriors
My impression was that historical ninja were actually used on missions with a high mortality possibility where the sender wanted to be able to claim not to be involved so could not sent his own samurai. This would include 'dishonourable' actions such as assassinations or attacks on those protected by influence. In both cases they were needed to be expendable and cheaply equiped not well equiped, that would be traceable, and well trained, that would take a long time to replace and be expensive, both of which as is commonly promoted in fiction. --Nate1481 10:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

A ninja was, from what I understand. A peasant who, was very smart, probably craftsmen farmers and the like who developed special techniques to carry out whatever objective. but in there day life they would be your ordinary farmer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryeonos (talk • contribs) 06:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Wolf Fighting Style?
Is there a Wolf Fighting Style? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.28.175 (talk) 21:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

That is entirely irrelevant. Under any Ninja Ryu that I know of [i]no[/i] there might be some technique or something that references or alludes to a wolf but no official fighting styles that I would know of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryeonos (talk • contribs) 06:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

+Chinese 'Shaolin Monks' associated their fighting styles with animals and no, there was no wolf. -Dash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.123.214.254 (talk) 06:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Touch the Clouds
Chief Touch the Clouds of the Native American tribe at the Minneconjou Teton Laktoa received a Ninja training in Japan. This is very interesting material, it really is! Please search for it in educational books, archives (such as at Cheyenne River Agency). Thanks in advance,

145.99.106.218 (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You have a source for this? Because it sounds kind of weird. Xavius, the Satyr Lord (talk) 14:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(to be added in a separate section at the bottom) Self-styled modern groups
Among others:
 * Death squad-type armed groups active under Indonesian rule in East Timor, which terrorized populations supporting independence and were allegedly controlled by the Indonesian military, in some cases called themselves "Ninja". The name seems to have been borrowed from the movies rather than being directly influenced by the Japanese model. The "ninja" gangs were also active elsewhere in Indonesia.
 * The Angolan special police forces are a specialized paramilitary police force officially referred to as the Emergency Police, but popularly known as “Ninjas”.
 * Rebels in the Pool Region of the Republic of the Congo also called themselves "Ninja".
 * Red Berets, a Serb paramilitary group of Dragan Vasiljković based in Knin, Croatia, called themselves "Kninjas".

What is the adjective for ninja-related things? You should include that in the article, if there is one. 71.215.135.80 (talk) 22:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Ninjas, Category:Fictional ninjas
Shouldn't these categories use ninja instead of ninjas? --JadziaLover (talk 15:08, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say the plural ninjas is fairly common

Jutsu vs. jitsu
The page currently states "ninjutsu" is an erroneous transcription of 忍術, yet the rest of the page consistently spells it like that. So does the page Ninjutsu and (in kana) the Japanese pages on ninja and ninjutsu and the Daijirin dictionary. The edit was done ages ago by a shortlived IP user: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/12.109.20.242 with no reference. I can guess where "jitsu" comes from but it's just that: a guess. I'm reverting that edit to match the rest of WP but it'd be nice if someone could shed some light on this. Boksha (talk) 19:29, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

well there is bujutsu and ninjutsu but I've never heard from any reliable source or any of my sensei (Reliable Source in my case, as well as books) of jutsu or jitsu on its own. Usually "Jutsu" is referenced with a prefix like- toiri-no-Jutsu, which would translate to "the art of infiltration" Jutsu from what I understand would be like saying "The art of-" but is a suffix in japanese. While these forms of Bujutsu were taught in "Ryu" Or schools, essentialy. The idea behind Ryu and Bujutsu is much more complex but you can get the idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryeonos (talk • contribs) 06:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)