Talk:Ninjutsu/Archive 2

Trying to change this article unsuccessfully
I've added an introduction to this article, to the effect that ninjitsu is a modern set of martial arts techniques which claim to be derived from the practices of historical ninjas, but might not be. However someone keeps coming along and replacing it with their version, which has no references and which seems to have no connection to the small amount that is known about historical ninjas. I'm going to request some help from a moderator. --Apeloverage 06:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I also added a reference to a balanced well-investigated essay about Mr. Fujita Seiko and the Koga Ryu by Mr. Don Roley, a reputable investigator and practitioner in the Bujinkan who lives and trains in Japan. That reference was removed. That essay would have assisted those attempting to learn about ninjutsu from this set of pages to have a more balanced view of the history of ninjutsu. I am reluctant, therefore, to continue doing the work needed to add more of the requested supporting documentation for these pages. I was intending to supply documentation about the various historical sources of information about ninjutsu that were published during the Tokugawa Shogunate. --Orovalleydude (talk) 06:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Origins & other inaccuracies
The origin of ninjutsu as depicted in this article is completely incorrect, and there are a number of inaccuracies elsewhere in the article. I'm currently (unsuccessfully) trying to persuade a high ranking ninjutsu sensei to rewrite it. Don't expect any valid authorities on ninjutsu to make any effort to contribute or correct this article. 74.100.35.184 03:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good luck _> MonstaPro:Talk:Contrib. 13:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to propose the addition of information on the Fuma-ryu school of Ninjutsu. This article is very biased towards the Bujinkan schools, and it would be good to have other schools represented --Nevla 14:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Please remove offensive sentence in the begining of the Ninjustsu page
"There they mixed with a varied lot of people including the descendants of refugees who had fled China. Later, the skills were developed over 300 years to create ninjutsu." -- Japanese created ninjitsu and not the lower level Chinese.

off the top of my heaf i do bekive that gyoko ryu (one of the oldest schools of the 9 traditions in the bujinkan) was said to have been started by a chinese woman.Razor romance 15:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Togakure is the first and oldest school of ninjutsu. It is the school from which all the others are based. That much is certain. I was taught that Togakure was a japanese guy who had studied (or perhaps infiltrated) martial arts in china and upon his return sought to develop a new combat system to counter the strict, honorable and extremely powerful samurai. But there's so much misinformation and disinformation about these origins. With his togakure school, he had many novel and taboo ideas like ambidextrous training, escapist and stealth tactics, subversion, disguise, the unspeakable sin of attacking from behind, assassination and especially the bewildering, cunning and purely efficient fighting style ninjutsu is still famous for.and people play hocky with detached penises.

The Gyoku Ryu you mention adapted a newer, stylized version of Togakure ninjutsu focused on somewhat circular movements and koshijutsu - harming muscles and organs. It counters the aggressive, direct-line style of the equally stylized Koto-ryu's Koppojutsu - bonebreaking. I have no idea which came first. The original togakure style is the best known and taught all over the world. Variants like Gyoku-ryu and Koto-ryu can only be taught by Soke Hatsumi-sama or his apprentices.

Scary Monster 03:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Gyokko Ryu is not ninjutsu per se (although you can clearly see Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu written in densho by Takamatsu Toshitsugu - Hatsumi's The Way of the Ninja does include photos of said documents). I wouldn't call it a variant of Togakure Ryu, baring in mind that it has been stated that Togakure Ryu is a (maybe not so) distant branch of Gyokko Ryu. According to the Bujinkan, Gyokko Ryu was founded in the Hogen era (circa 1156-1159) making it in fact older than the Togakure school. Plus, the story of Daisuke Nishina (who later adopted Togakure as his last name) I've read in more than one publications does not have him going to China, while I do remember reading he was from a samurai family himself. Gyokko Ryu has been the training theme of the year quite a few times (most recently in 2005), so I wouldn't really go as far as saying that it can only be taught by Hatsumi Sensei. Also note that the core of Bujinkan training is based on Gyokko Ryu.--Enudei 06:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please remove the end of the Ninjustsu page
At the end of the Ninjutsu page there is a comment made that is very opinionated and would offend people who were reading it. I myself was just looking through martial arts and wanted to read the history of ninjutsu but the last sentence is totally uncalled for. Ninjutsu as far as I know it is a very good martial art and most people that go through it do it for discipline, not just to be a "ninja". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.225.174.76 (talk) 04:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

That part is there to mention very famous douchebags who noisily and deceitfully claim to be able to train people in ninjutsu. It's not offensive or opinionated, it's vindicating. I agree that those guys deserve no mention anywhere, but they will never, ever be denounced or contested by Hatsumi or even any qualified instructor. The Bujinkan Brotherhood has many motives for ignoring those childish braggarts. The most important of which is they are not taken seriously. Scary Monster 03:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Should ninpo really redirect here?
I'm just a beginner but my understanding is that the terms "ninpo" and "ninjutsu" are not equivalent. Harry Metcalfe 18:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Ninpo refers mostly to the entire school or path. Ninjutsu refers more to the martial aspect. In my opinion it's okay to use "ninjutsu" to title this topic since it's more familiar and there's no english equivalent for either word. The distinction is one of the countless obstacles all translators face when dealing with Japanese. Japanese is notorious for its resistance to translation.

Scary Monster 02:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu
I really think we should get clear if it's Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu, i see people use both things everywhere!! Maybe both things exist and they're 2 different things, then please tell me!

the corect spelling is Ninjutsu.Razor romance 14:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Ashida Kim Spells it Ninjitsu and even defends this spelling on his official website (first question in FAQ on official website. However, the commonly accepted spelling is Ninjutsu. 59.92.144.144 17:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That's because he's the biggest BS artist that exists in all the various Ninjutsu arts. Ninjutsu is the spelling. Ninjitsu is the pronunciation. This is where this trivial argument stems from. Anyone spelling it as "Ninjitsu" is immediately questionable on this basis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.47.228 (talk) 08:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The Romanization of the characters 忍術 are "nin" and "jutsu." (Sometimes zyutu, but this Romanization is lesser known, and possibly useless unless you're Japanese or a scholar of the language...) Nin, means endurance, forbearance, patience, or self-restraint. "Jutsu" means skill, or technique. The transliteration can only BE "jutsu," because "jitsu" is a completely different character, 実, which means "truth." It is "jutsu," and it can only ever BE "jutsu," and anyone who argues otherwise obviously does not know what they're talking about and should learn Japanese first before coming on WikiPedia to talk about the language.210.133.127.14 (talk) 01:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Verified Japanese origins
Removed:

"Brian McCarthy (Bujinkan Brian Dojo BBD) studied under Masaaki Hatsumiand continues to teach from his Dublin base all around Europe, but has since split from the larger Bujinkan clan."

As there is no use adding people who have only trained with Hatsumi about 8 times otherwise the list would be too long and pointless. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.101.137.114 (talk) 11:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Agreed. The only ninjutsu student of special note is Stephen Hayes who is the first (and to my knowledge) the only non-japanese to ever achieve an apprenticeship with a Soke of this art.

Scary Monster 02:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Doron Navon in many Bujinkan peoples minds was an incredibly influential teacher of Hatsumi's teachings who also served his apprenticeship to Soke. So I wouldn't go as far as saying that Stephen Hayes was the ONLY student of special note...

Verified origens should consist of people that have done "contributions" to the art of ninjutsu in itself. This goes beyond being a black belt, having a few classes with Hatsumi, or being a suspected practitioner of the art. Having a list of all the students that Hatsumi has ever had is just not reasonable.

Removed: the strongest jutsu that the fuuma clan used was rasengan

Ben Jones and Benjamin Cole are both said to be students of Hatsumi's, each co-authoring (and/or translating) a book with Hatsumi. Helping translate a book is not founding or establishing a new organisation or style.

Tenmon - Astral Projection
I notice the revert on this and did some googling. There are no good sources that include astral projection in Tenmon other than Wikipedia mirrors. []. RichMac (Talk) 07:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Verified, unverified origins
This section is pretty weaselly. They're not very verified without citations. RichMac (Talk) 07:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy
The initial paragraphs need to be rewritten for neutrality. There is no historical basis for the existance of "ninja clans", or any more formal training than modern burglars get. They were called shinobi, not ninja, and generally became "invisible" by dressing in servant's garb. The bulk of ninja mythology was invented for Kabuki theater. For example, the black "ninja" outfit is actually the uniform used by Kabuki, Bunraku and Noh stagehands to indicate that they should be ignored. A hidden ninja character would wear one to show the audience that he was, in fact, invisible. The modern concept of 'ninja' is a pop culture construct with no more basis in reality than the modern concept of 'zombies'.

- The above comment is spot on. To this should be added a thriving Japanese pulp fiction genre which emerged out of Osaka in the 1800s, which had these black clad (kabuki inspired) ninja as stock characters and started to place them in the popular consciousness. Bit like fast drawing cowboys. Mostly the invention of writers and journalists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.200.59.6 (talk) 07:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Ninjutsu, not the true style.
Ninjutsu isn't the real style of the 'Ninja' Warrior and is in fact Ninjukai Taijutsu that is the true martial art of the 'Ninja' adopted by the Samurai warriors of feudal Japan. Ninjutsu is only about 20years old. So is blasphemous to say it is the true martial art of the 'Ninja'. So it would be wrong to say it is, in this article.

TheEnierlater

This may be correct. However, many styles have been changed and renamed in the many years since their origin. Also, many styles of martial arts branch from the original. An example of this would be the many ryus branching from Ninjutsu and the many new programs being created to support these styles. So it may be true that Ninjukai Taijutsu was the original name used, but Ninjutsu also seems to have it's rightful place as the title. Perhaps it would be more convenient if the article stated that Ninjukai Taijutsu was the original title used. 169.244.206.212 (talk) 14:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Richard Van Donk wrote information in this article about himself?
How interesting that in this revision of the ninjutsu article a "Master V" included the glorifying statement that "Richard Van Donk who was one of the first Foreigners to take the Godan test from Soke Hatsumi in the early 1980s encouraged Hatsumi to do videos of his teachings and helped him distribute them worldwide thereby growing the Ninjutsu art. Richard has been graded to 15th dan from Hatsumi."

Interesting also that Van Donk claims to be the rightful inheritor and "Soke" to the DeCuerdas Escrima system.See Van Donk's claims. Have you ever heard of a "soke" of an escrima system?

Personal opinion: More likely than not what's going on here is Van Donk studied under an old Filipino man. Watched him die, and then took the name he used for his art and created a story about being the next "Soke" of a Filipino martial art. This would have be done for self-glorifying reasons after seeing there is no one around who is going to question him. Well guess what, it's being questioned. Is there really any doubt when a Master V posts glorifying statements on Wikipedia about Richard Van Donk? In reality this man appears to be a video salesman, exploiting Filipinos and Japanese men, who wants to be able to run around telling people he's a 14th or 15th Dan. //end of personal opinion

If Van Donk's claims are fraudulent then this would be evidence towards discrediting the Bujinkan. This would mean the Bujinkan ranks individuals up to 15th Dan who steal a man's work, use a deceased man's name for self promotion and falsely claim to inherit a system that was another's life and blood. This would be disgusting and Van Donk's actions may possibly be construed as illegal (depending on how the use of Tenio's name effects the family of the deceased.) User5802 07:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Van Donk is indeed a pathetic joke when it comes to Ninjutsu. Selling DVDs to people claiming that you can become a black belt in Ninjutsu if you just watch the whole series is total rubbish. It took me 7 years to get to Black belt which anyone knows anything about Ninjutsu is mearly the beginning of you learning. Our green belts would give him a hiding —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.104.210 (talk) 21:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is BIASED
I am very disappointed in the BIASED opinions of this article. Saying that the Japanese hold the true Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu practice. The Art of the Ninja is a concept and can be held by anyone. Also there is no claiming who or what is authentic this is also VERY biased and opinion based. This art can also be competitive and is dependent upon the person not the system (WHY NOT use a fighting art to fight) There are too many wrongs written within this article and it needs to be overhauled in an unbiased and opinionated way. All sides of the spectrum need to be more thoroughly explained and included.

Remove titles
Titles should be removed from the article per Nate1481's |Nate1481 edit. They don't belong in this encyclopedia. See Jimmy Carter or George W. Bush for examples. Nowhere does the title "President XXX" get used. Even in the article on Pope Benedict XVI, which uses the title form in the article title, only the opening sentence, and a caption on an image of the papal arms uses the title form of his name. (strike bad example - Benedict isn't strictly the Pope's name!) When writing about individuals in the english Wikipedia, we simply use their name.--Paleorthid (talk) 18:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "... professional titles (such as "Doctor" or "Professor") should not be used before the name in the initial sentence or in other uses of the person's name. Verifiable facts about how the person attained such titles should be included in the article text instead." WP:NAMES. This guideline is specific to biographical articles, however non-biographical references to the individual are expected to also conform to this style guideline. --Paleorthid (talk) 17:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Schools of Ninjutsu
This section is almost an open invertation for adverts, much of the info is controversial or unsourced. Should it be heavily edited? or simply removed? --Nate1481(t/c) 10:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a problem in that all the sources that seem to back up the claims of Junichi Kawakami are not truely independent sources. One source was a student of Kawakami and another from an organization that he was a member and supporter of. There were some pretty inflametory claims made that were not backed up by independent sources written by people with no connection with him. Kidotai (talk) 12:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Masaaki Hatsumi, Shoto Tanemura, etc. legitimacy questions
EXPOSING THE BIGGEST FRAUDS IN MARTIAL ARTS HISTORY (Masaaki Hatsumi and Shoto Tanemura)

It has become quite aparant that the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi being directly related to authentic Ninja History are unproven in Japan. He has never been able to prove his claims. The Koryu  states that Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan are not historic practitioners of Ninjutsu. The Koryu states it has seen the documents in question and that there is no proof that Masaaki Hatsumi has any Ninjutsu lineage. The Iga Ninja Museum in Japan  states under its FAQ section that there is only one legitimate person that has inherited authentic Ninjutsu (Jinichi Kawakami), and it's not Masaaki Hatsumi. Masaaki Hatsumi and his claims are not even mentioned and it is obvious they don't consider them relevant. Much of the confusion seems to stem from the belief that Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Toshitsugu Takamatsu, was recognized in Japan as having authentic Ninjutsu roots. This simply is not true. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried to prove he was connected to Ninjutsu but failed in proving this. Evidence of this unproven lineage can be seen by the Koryu and Iga Ninja Museum's unwillingnes to validate Toshitsugu Takamatsu's claims. If Toshitsuge Takamatsu claims were never proven in Japan, how can Masaaki Hatsumi claim to be teaching authentic Ninjutsu? Why do people keep insisting that his lineage is verified? It obviously is not. I think that the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and all other schools stemming from Masaaki Hatsumi should be listed under the "unverified origins section" of the Ninjutsu schools page. There is no proof whatsoever that any of these schools have direct ties to original Ninjutsu. Keita52 (talk) 17:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

So, to sum it up; the Koryu and the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum in Japan have both denounced Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to authentic Ninjutsu. Masaaki Hatsumi has never had his claim verified in Japan. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried but failed to have his claim to authentic Ninjutsu verified in Japan. Wal852 (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

As stated in "Rekishi Dokuhon" (History Magazine, 08/1960) Masaaki Hatsumi said he was Ueno Takashi's student at age 24, and until age 29 only sometimes wrote letters to Toshitsugu Takamatsu who was then Ueno Takashi's teacher.  Following this in the "Bugeicyo(11/1963)" Hatsumi states he only trains with Takamatsu once every three months on weekends.  The "Bugeicyo (11/1963)" editor states that Masaaki Hatsumi's ideas and lineage are only his ideas and have no proof to support them  In the more recent "Shinobino Sengokushi"(Heisei 08/2004) Hatsumi states he trained with Toshitsugu Takamatsu for 15years and became master of 9systems at age 27.  08/2004> Toshitsugu Takamatsu died in 1972. This would make the year Masaaki Hatsumi started training with Toshitsugu Takamatsu 1957(and his dates and age don't match at all). This completely contradicts Masaaki Hatsumi's statements from the "Rekishi Dokuhon 08/1960" and the "Bugeicyo 11/1963." Furthermore, in the "Bugeicyo 11/1963" Hatsumi stated he only went to see Takamatsu once every three months for training by train only on the weekend (2days, leaving Friday night and getting home by Monday morning).......this would be impossible at this time (1963) because Toshitsugu Takamatsu was a restaurant owner who lived in Nara and Masaaki Hatsumi lived in Chiba....during that time there was no train from Chiba to Nara that could cover that distance in the time-frame stated.(Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)).

In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base. Anyone interested in the validity of his statements should do research by contacting these establishments:


 * Nagano City Board of Education (Nagano is where Togakushi (Togakure) village is located). Ask them if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.
 * Noda-City Board of Education (Masaaki Hatsumi's hometown). Ask them if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.
 * Iga-Ninja Museum (Iga Ninja Museum is the only "Public" Ninja Museum in Japan. Half the establishment is set up for tourism but the other half is actually a "Public Museum." They must be held accountable for their information. Other "so-called" Ninja museums in Japan are "Private" establishments that aren't held accountable to anyone.......such as the Togakushi (Togakure) museum that has ties to Masaaki Hatsumi). Ask the Iga-Ninja Museum if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

Don't be surprised if they don't recognize Masaaki Hatsumi's name. Few Japanese do. (Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC))


 * Would some of this detail be better placed on the Bujinkan article? --Nate1481(t/c) 09:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It is kind of funny to see the new names show up at about the same time, saying the same thing- most of it wrong.

First of all, the latest comments about there being no direct train line that could cover the distance in time...have you never heard of the overnight trains that used to run? You could catch a train from the Tokyo area and wake up the next morning just about anywhere in Japan. Is this a lack of research into the matter, or was it left out on purpose?

Actually, there were only local trains at this time from Chiba to Nara (1963 and before). It would take a very, very long time. Saying "you could take a train anywhere from Tokyo and wake up the next morning just about anywhere in Japan (in 1963)" shows you don't have knowledge about transportation in Japan. I think the bullet train started to run in 64 and only from Tokyo to Osaka. Even nowadays it can take a very long time. Not all stations have bullet trains. You can be on one side of Tokyo and to even get to the airport it takes over 3hours by bus or train. Sure, the bullet train is fast, but you have to be at a station where it stops. (Jb54387 (talk) 21:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC))

The first link given is not "The Koryu." It is Koryu Books, an American publisher. They do not say that Mr. Hatsumi's claims have never been validated. They are saying that they don't want to deal with ninjutsu since it does not meet their definition of koryu. And they are talking about Kawakami Junichi as well.

The Ueno museum is a tourist trap that has Mr. Kawakami as a supporter. I am sure that the guy who wants to promote Mr. Kawakami will say that it is the standard for ninjutsu, but it really is just set up to pull in tourist dollars to the city that built in. Heiichiro Okuse used to be associated with it and he wrote many well- received books on ninjutsu, but that was long before Mr. Kawakami came along. It is not an objecdtive source. Authors like Yumio Nawa are objective sources, and none of them have confirmed Mr. Kawakami's claims, but at least two seem to have confirmed Mr. Hatsumi's claims.

Koizumi Shizuo interviewed Takamatsu Toshitsugu and did a series of articles in Tokyo Sports Newspaper between August 29 and September 19, 1963. In the article of September 13th, the dates given for Mr Hatsumi's training under Mr Takamatsu is pretty much confirmed as Mr Hatsumi has stated it. Again, these were articles based on part with interviews with Mr Takamatsu. So if he said that to an independent source that he made Mr Hatsumi his succesor in Showa year 33, then we can pretty much throw out the accusations that Mr Hatsumi only started training with him later.

The fact of the matter is that Mr Hatsumi has been accepted by a lot more sources or greater status and objectivity than Mr. Kawakami. He has received culture awards and been featured in serious books about ninjutsu history- not things like airline inflight magazines. This section seems to have been taken over by someone seeking to build up one group by tearing down the group in Japan that really seems to be held up as the standard of historical ninjutsu. Kidotai (talk) 23:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Quick question: Which objective sources?
 * My opinions aside, none of the schools listed seem to have provided anything approaching an independent reliable source for there claims and sources of at least equal quality to anything provided have been given questioning them. So, right now, the article needs to include the claims made (with a source) and note that they are debated.(with a source), and just to clarify link to Koryu.com directly contradicts some of the claims given, as they include those stating that any style of ninjutsu is directly descended from related to historic Japaneses martial arts. Also a publisher of books on Koryu martial arts, (that states it has consulted other organizations) seems relatively independent, as they could quiet easily cash in on the appetite for ninja books but have decided not to as it dosen't fall in their remit of Koryu arts. --Nate1481(t/c) 08:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The independent source for the personal training of Masaaki Hatsumi under Toshitsugu Takamatsu is in the form of a series of articles written by Koizumi Shizuo interviewing Takamatsu and printed in the Tokyo Sports Newspaper in September of 1963. If Takamatsu said that Hatsumi trained with him from age 27, and it is reported by a reporter that interviewed him, that seems to best source on the matter. Kidotai (talk) 09:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that Hatsumi has blown the amount of time he spent with Takamatsu way out of proportion. That is irrelevant anyway, because Takamatsu was never known to be related to Ninjutsu. He tried but his claims were rejected. The supposed "Ninjutsu" stemming from Takamatsu and Hatsumi is based soley on "their" words. In Japan they aren't believed. Their is absolutely no evidence to support their claims.(Hpsft1 (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC))

No, Hatsumi did not blow the time he spent with Takamatsu way out of proportion. There is physical evidence and independent witnesses to his relationship. These attacks do not happen on Japanese sites- only on this English one by someone with an agenda.

To try to paint Hatsumi as blowing his time with Takamatsu out of proportion, an article he wrote in 2004 for Rekishi Dokuhon was sited. And it was said that his reputation in Japan was bad and very well known. But if that is the case, why did the editors of Rekishi Dokuhon accept his article? For that matter, how about all the otherbooks and authors that have been put forward so far writing about the Togakure ryu? With all of them, how can anyone say that no one in Japan takes Hatsumi seriously?

24 hours ago I posted the names of a few authors who wrote about the Togakure ryu and placed their reputation on the line by saying it was a historical school. Somehow I doubt that anyone has gone out and read the books before posting here that there is no evidence. I think people in Japan consider Yumio Nawa a respectable scholar. For that matter, why was Watatani Kiyoshi worthy of mention in his 1963 comment that he knew of no supporting evidence for Hatsumi's claims, but when he reveresed himself in 1978 after Nama, Koyama and others started looking into the claims and publishing their findings, he lost his status as a reliable source as far as you are concerned?

If Hatsumi's reputation was so poor, and there was no supporting evidence to his claims and the claims of his teacher, why would the society for cultural promotion give him an award like they did and risk their reputation? Is Hatsumi famous for some other cultural skill such as karaoke? I would really like someone who says that Takamatsu tried to get his claims accepted but was rejected to give a reference of him doing so.

Some folks may not have seen proof of Takamatsu's claims, but the question is did they ever look in the first place. Some authors and scholars I listed did bother to ask, look and they say the sources check out. Kidotai (talk) 08:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Masaaki Hatsumi was given a cultural award. No arguement there. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It is a reward related to spreading Japanese culture. That is it. This seems fitting because almost all of his students are non-Japanese. He brings a lot of foreigners into the country. He has traveled to a lot of foreign countries. It is interesting that he has almost no Japanese students. Why is that? And don't give me the arguement that Japanese are no longer interested in the martial arts.........there are plenty of Japanese who still study them. They don't go to him because he is running around "acting" like he is a ninja. The keyword being "acting." He graduated college with a degree in theatre so I'm sure he knows how to do that. In the end he simply doesn't have any proof that his "Ninjutsu" is authentic. It seems to be a huge misunderstanding in the community OUTSIDE of Japan. You should go to Japan and visit the dojos of other traditional Japanese martial arts. Ask them what they think of Hatsumi. Ask them if there is any verifiable proof to his claims (they probably won't say much). Why isn't this news all over Japan? Simple. People aren't interested in it. They think he is just pleasing the foreigners by acting like a "ninja." It is known by martial artists in Japan that his claims are false. Japanese culture is what you would call a "silent culture." They tend to ignore and outcast people who do outlandish and absurd things. That is what has happend here. He is simply ignored. No one in Japan is interested in him. (Hpsft1 (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC))

First of all, Japanese do consider martial arts as part of their culture. So what other part of Japanese culture was Hatsumi supposed to have done to get the award?

The ratio of Japanese to non-Japanese students has a lot more to do with the way some foriegn students have marketed the art while Hatsumi runs no advertisements for his classes. The total number of Japanese studying with him is higher than many schools in Japan. So are all the schools with only a few dozen Japanese students frauds as well.

You thought it worthy of note that Watatani stated in 1963 that there was no proof, now that you know that he reversed himself you are saying that the lack of sources denoucening Hatsumi is due to a lack of interest and ignoring him. Sounds like an excuse.

And can you prove that the Iga Ueno museum ever examinied Hatsumi's claims? It has as a supporter a man trying to establish himself as the sole voice of ninjutsu in Japan and is itself a tourist trap. It is not an unbiased source. Can you prove they did any examination of any claims by anyone?

Asking people to go ask various sources is not a form of scholarship. We know that the city of Noda has had Hatsumi give demonstrations, why would they do that if their board of education rejected his claims? I am not saying they even looked at the claims, but they obviously don't seem to have problems if they allow him to make demos. Saying that people should check with them and other groups is just a form of trying to cast doubt and not scholarship. Kidotai (talk) 22:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I have been looking up some of the sources, more specifically the koryu.com site. When David Dimarzio first started talking about it here, he claimed that they were denouncing the Bujinkan. I noticed that they were talking about all ninjutsu groups, and that means the Banke group as well. And I posted it in regards to that group as well, which seems to irritate David. But a more careful reading seems to show that they just don't want to deal with ninjutsu. They never said they looked at anyone's claims, nor say they are qualified to do so. They merely say they don't consider ninjutsu (all ninjutsu) to be historical and don't cover it.

Well, that is their opinion. Without knowing why they feel that way, it is hard to say it is a good choice or not. They may just not want to deal with the matter.

For that matter, there are a lot of people who have never bothered to look into something that give opinions. Watatani Kiyoshi was one who said in 1963 that there was no proof to Hatsumi's claims. But when proof started to come out, he changed what he wrote in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.

It seems to me that instead of trying to find groups that make opinions but don't give why they have negative opinions, we should be looking at sources that say they have looked over the materials and facts and see if they reject or accept the claims. If an independent group says that someone is legit because they have examined the sources, that should count more than someone who never says anything about examining the materiels.

Of course, independent historians, authors and organizations should be the only sources. The Bujinkan can point to a lot of these in the form of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, Yumio Nawa, The society to promote Japanese culture and many others. Groups like the Banke Shinnobiden group can't seem to point to a truely indepent source that will take them seriously.Kidotai (talk) 10:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

'SERIOUSLY' like this video? Your claiming that the main actor in this video(Masaaki Hatsumi) who mentions several times Togakure Ryu Bujinkan Ninjutsu during the show, that Ninjutsu came from planets beyond the stars, who is fighting with power ranger type actors............is practicing authentic Ninjutsu? Obviously this is absurd. The guy is an actor that graduated from College with a degree in theatre. In Japan he is seen as an actor. Here is the video:  Taishiro487 (talk) 01:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Takamatsu studied ninjutsu with a close relation of his father, as Takamatsu was fragile child. When his body was strong, his father and grandfather taught him Jujutsu. The "Iga-ryu museum" is a theme park. 220.253.39.213 (talk) 10:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Karl Friday is a well-respected Japanese Historian. He states, "It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the Bugei ryuha daijiten, Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games")..." (Source: (Friday, Karl Dr. "Re: Ninja and Ninjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List. May 19th, 1999.) Also, take a look at the webpage this information is on  It shows many problems with the lineage of Toshitsugu Takamatsu and Masaaki Hatsumi.

Most people in Japan that study this stuff seem to already know that Toshitsugu Takamatsu and Masaaki Hatsumi are not connected to "authentic Ninjutsu." In the above document it states Toshitsugu made up his Ninjutsu from childhood games he played. Thus, since Toshitsugu Takamatsu was Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan fall under this category.Aruku85 (talk) 22:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Verification on an art that has shinobi as it's cornerstone is a contradiction in terms. The real question that should be asked is "which has been known about publicly the longest?", in which case the answer would be Bujinkan with Genbukan and Jinenkan as close runners-up. Any so-called "authentic" styles that have come out over the past few years are subject to much scrutiny since if they had been known about when Bujinkan was originally launched during the 80's Ninja Boom with Doran Navon and Stephen Hayes, then where were these organizations to step up and talk about these people taking credit for what was rightfully and "verified" as theirs (and don't kid us with "they were hiding")? Sure seems to have taken them a while to get their asses in gear. Not very ninja-like of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.47.228 (talk) 08:15, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Ninjutsu
Ninjutsu was created by 村八分 sorry I do not know the English word. The 村八分 started their own village in Iga. These people met yamabushi in the mountains. Yamabushi is warrior monk that did not live in city or village. The 村八分 learnt how to fight from the yamabushi, and created ninjutsu from farming lifestyle, as way to survive. At some time, some of these people moved to Koga and created their own form. The reason is not known. Moreover, at some time more people moved to different areas, and other clan was started, such as Fuma and Negoro. There is no samurai relation, or foreign influence on ninjutsu. It is from 村八分 protecting their families. Ninjutsu is not taught in schools, or to people that want to learn. It is family lineage, or relation to family. Due to their blood line, these type of people remain in rural due to Japanese culture. However, I have no hate for these people, because my wife is from 村八分 family. 220.253.39.213 (talk) 10:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

A dictionary translates the above word as "ostracized" or "exile". It is unclear from the above text, however, if this was self-imposed exile (chosen seclusion, hermits), or if they were banned by the society of the time (e.g. ronins, criminals, etc). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.78.213 (talk) 15:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could at least supply the reading in either kana or Romaji so that people can actually read this. Basically what the person above is saying is that Ninjitsu or whatever the ninja used was something outcasts developed in the mountains? I hate to say it but that sounds like the biggest crock. No offense to the Japanese people, I love the culture and all, but I find attempts at trying to isolate certain arts as being "uniquely Japanese" to be complete BS. The Japanese trademark is taking something and making something new. There is absolutely nothing in Japan that wasn't brought in from other Asian countries. The indigenous people are the Ainu, and they're almost wiped out. Shinto may have derived from the Ainu. Buddhism comes from India. The shamisen evolved from the sanxian. The koto is the Japanese version of a zither that exists all over Asia. I'm supposed to believe the "wagon" is this instrument completely thought up in Japan, even though the prototype has existed in other parts of Asia for ages. Tempura and kompeito come from Portugal. The juban women wear under their kimono is a pretty recent invention. Hey, did you know that the little っ used in Japanese to symbolize a glottal stop between Kana characters is a DUTCH innovation? Because the Japanese didn't have a symbol to represent this? Do you know why there are Japanese castles? Because they couldn't get the traditional Chinese imperial city model of a square city with the emperor's palace at the top to work in the mountainous regions of Japan. Nara and Kyoto are in effect, failed attempts to create the imperial capital according to Chinese Feng Shui. So, don't get me wrong, I LOVE Japan and the culture, but please don't try and feed me the "uniquely Japanese" bullshit. Perhaps the ninja refined fighting techniques to suit their needs, thus creating something new, but please. Those fighting techniques had to come from somewhere else. The Japanese are people formed from people that came from China and Korea, when you get right down to it. Sorry if I insult any right-wing Uyoku out there... Gomen, ne?210.133.127.14 (talk) 01:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Murahachibu is the romanization, referring to entire villages in exile, typically due to some linkage with buraku activities. Whether or not the Iga villages were murahachibu I cannot ascertain, this might just be an arrived conclusion.  The part about yamabushi is worth looking into though, there is good evidence that so-called shinobi practices relate to yamabushi ideals, and the Kii area is also a favorite spot for yamabushi roaming.  It would be no surprise to me if there was some kind of influence.  However, the specific details in the first post are probably speculative.  As for "uniqueness", well that has little to do with the article.  Overwhelming foreign influence is undeniable, but it appears to me that there is still as appreciable an amount of "uniqueness" to Japan as there is in other countries of the formal Sinosphere.  Of course, when you state things like "Ninjitsu", "indigenous people are the Ainu", "Shinto may have derived from the Ainu", "wagon", "imperial capital according to Chinese Feng Shui", "ninja refined fighting techniques", "Japanese are people formed from people that came from China and Korea", it shows a very surface understanding of these matters, and I will not push the point further. ~  A Morozov  &#9001;talk&#9002; 06:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Page no longer really talks about the art in any detail...
In the last month this article has changed almost beyond recognition. It seems to have turned into a row about whose version of Ninjutsu is the most historically accurate and is a large advert for different dojos and websites.

It needs a thorough review by some knowledgable individuals, that allows for the inclusion of different schools without it turning into a slagging match.

I agree with you! I am eventually moving to Japan, and would like to study Ninjutsu & Ninpo, but hot damn, get the info objective and unbiased! 76.170.118.217 (talk) 06:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with these statements. Ninjutsu is not totally about the lineage. Of course it's important, and it is most definitely popular. It is fine for the lineage and history of the art to be discussed and listed in accuracy but there should be more contribution on behalf of the art itself, including the ryus and what they specialized in. Each of the nine main Ninjutsu ryus specialized in a form of the art. During Ninjutsu classes nowadays, a Sensei takes time once in a while to sit and discuss these important facts and articles of history with the students. Contribution to this article based on not only accurate history, vocabulary, and the art itself are strongly encouraged by myself. I'm sure many others would agree. 169.244.206.212 (talk) 14:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Schools of Ninjutsu Section
Quite frankly it's a mess. It's trying to take over the article and leading to edit wars, I think NO SCHOOL regardless of linage claims/proof or abilities, age or prominence should be directly listed. Just a sentence saying there are several and link to the article; there the web of origins can be discussed in more detail and all sides presented with sources without confusing this article and it can get back to discussing general concepts and possibly be promoted which is never going to happen with a section dedicated to advert wars. --Nate1481(t/c) 10:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Nate. NJMauthor (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * More input please I am going to be go ahead unless someone opposed this. --Nate1481(t/c) 11:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me, that section is a mess.--Will Decay (talk) 06:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Created Schools of Ninjutsu still needs lots of work and the seciton may be too short but its better than it was. --Nate1481(t/c) 09:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Historic or modern?
Are there any sources verifying that there even was an historical "ninjutsu" (That is, a distinct martial art used by historical ninjas)? It is more than possible different clans, or even different individuals within a clan, used utterly distinct fighting styles. It is also possible historical ninjas didn't use a unique fighting style, but rather used existing martial arts of the time, such as the ones used by samurai of the time. Finally, it is possible historical ninjas didn't use any formal martial arts, but rather improvised during fights, assuming they were caught in face-to-face combat.

There is, however, undeniably, a modern martial art called "ninjutsu". I'm not talking about the thousands of schools that popped up during the 80s, often teaching other known martial arts, but calling it "ninjutsu". I'm talking about the modern art involving 8-way movement, counter-throws, and pressure point strikes, independently demonstrated by seemingly unrelated martial artist, showing a clear common-basis in the fighting style they use. I did hear from one person practicing modern ninjutsu, that the art originates from the 20s, when a single martial artist took 3 separate disciplines, each calling themselves "ninjutsu" and combined them into a single martial art. I don't exactly remember the details, and it's not a verifiable source, but I do think it's a claim worth looking into.

I think information about the true origins of modern ninjitsu, its mutations, and/or some details on the "look and feel" of its techniques, would be far more interesting than sketchy information on an historical martial art that may or may not have even existed, and was probably not called "ninjutsu" even if it did.

87.69.78.213 (talk) 15:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I got a good laugh.
The "competition" section is just about the funniest thing I've ever read. Someone might want to fix / remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.78.162.70 (talk) 00:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Fine, I'll just do it myself then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.78.162.70 (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah that was pretty funny.User5802 (talk) 10:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Removing Unsourced and Poorly Sourced Material
1. The text:

Ninjutsu was developed by groups of people mainly from the Iga Province and Kōka, Shiga of Japan. Throughout history the shinobi have been seen as assassins, scouts and spies. They are mainly noted for their use of stealth and deception. They have been associated in the public imagination with activities that are considered criminal by modern standards.

was removed by me from

Ninjutsu was developed by groups of people mainly from the Iga Province and Kōka, Shiga of Japan. Throughout history the shinobi have been seen as assassins, scouts and spies. They are mainly noted for their use of stealth and deception. They have been associated in the public imagination with activities that are considered criminal by modern standards. Throughout history many different schools (ryū) have taught their unique versions of ninjutsu. An example of these is the Togakure-ryū. This ryū was developed after a defeated samurai warrior called Daisuke Togakure escaped to the region of Iga. Later he came in contact with the warrior-monk Kain Doshi who taught him a new way of viewing life and the means of survival (ninjutsu).

The reason I did so was because the source clearly applies ONLY to what follows "An example of this is..." As that is what the Hayes source applies to. User:AWWWalker mistook that for being a fully-sourced paragraph and reverted my deletion of the unsourced portion of the paragraph.

I will challenge this source later, but for now we should leave the sourced material in and remove the former portion, which is unsourced.

I would also like the sentencee "A female ninja is called a kunoichi (especially in fictions)." removed from the beginning of the article, as it is both poorly worded and unsourced. NJMauthor (talk) 16:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Sources by Stephen Hayes, Ashida Kim and Hatsumi are not valid sources on any martial art practiced before the year 1900. If you disagree, please list why below. Thank you. NJMauthor (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Your opinion is a pure original research. We select the authors opinions not yours. Please read again WP:NOR.
 * And about the first paragraph and the history of Iga, Koga and Ninjutsu, we can easily confirm by searching "Hayes, Stephen. iga koga" with google book. AWWWalker (talk) 17:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Original Research? I haven't put my claims into the article. I'm asking for any reasons why the sources are considered valid before I argue against them to have them removed. You are allowed to replace invalid sources with valid sources on wikipedia, and when the time comes and consensus is reached that will happen.

As for right now, we're only removing UNsourced material and original research. NJMauthor (talk) 19:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, Awwtalker, you undid all my grammatical/syntax fixes too. Jeez, full revert? Come on man! If you don't have the time to sort through... NJMauthor (talk) 19:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. You haven't put your claims into the article. Then you should explain why the sources aren't considered valid. It's your task not for us. We already presented the reliable sources in ordinary way. We don't know why you have suspicion about the soures.AWWWalker (talk) 08:24, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The reason I have suspicion of the sources is because there is no source from within... I'd say 300 years of when Ninjas were supposed to have existed that refers to ninjas practicing a distinct martial art. There is also no source that documents the descent of a "ninja" art to the modern day, in the form of lineage charts or historical records you see in Chinese and other Japanese martial arts.

Therefore anyone claiming to practice or teach ninjutsu as a decendant style of an ancient style practiced by the ninjas either A: has access to a source that the rest of the observational world does not, B: is working off of some unverifiable form of hearsay, or C: is making it up.

"A", of course, is perfectly fine if they can show the world that source. But I'm not seeing it anywhere.

If I write a book which claims that egyptian papyri contain the genetic code for godzilla, and then am unable to produce said papyri because they were "stolen by a secret Magi order hell-bent on preserving the ancient secrets", I am not going to be considered a valid source myself.

I am not debating the existence of ninjutsu, it's impossible to disprove. But I am debating whether or not the sources contain information related to such an art, or if the sources instead contain a hodgepodge of material from karate, traditional jujitsu, aikido, and various traditional japanese martial arts that don't claim descent from the ninja. As for the so-called other ninja arts associated with ninjutsu (smoke bombs, chi fireballs, bear claws, levitation, etc) Those "skills" are conveniently pulled from legends told about the ninja several centuries later.

Do you know of any primary or secondary sources from around the time period that refer to ninjutsu? NJMauthor (talk) 17:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How earnest you say your opinion, it's only a pure original research. We select the authors opinions not yours. Please take us some reliable soureces, that offer proofs and support what you say.AWWWalker (talk) 18:16, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Once again, I am not putting my claims in the article nor am I prepared to stick them in should no one oppose my previous posting.

Second, I don't need proof because you can't prove a negative and for encyclopedia purposes, occam's razor comes into play. The sources are not scholarly works, do not cite sources that the Average Man would consider valid, they do not have primary or secondary sources documenting their claims throughout history.

It is as you say "We select the authors opinions" that is, on wikipedia, we are invited to evaluate the credibility of sources.

I am asking you, sir, (and anyone else who wants to contribute) for your opinion on the validity of these sources. We are far from the stage in which we will consider removing them, this is the discussion phase. So please don't put up walls just yet. NJMauthor (talk) 18:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello? NJMauthor (talk) 16:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that you've already gone ahead and removed the entire reference section without discussion, which I've restored. The validity of these sources are not up the editor unless it violates WP:FRINGE or WP:COPYVIO.  The degree of reliability is a different matter, where we must strive to replace poor sources with better secondary ones.  Removing entire sections is not a helpful solution.  The POV, unless proven unscholarly, is not up to the editors.  We simply include everything relevant in the sources provided, with cited, opposing views if they exist.  Regardless of what you or I or anyone think about the sources, there is no justification for removal unless proven false by another source. ~  A Morozov  &#9001;talk&#9002; 01:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Will you be willing to actually stick around to help establish reliability, unlike the above posters? If so, we can finally put this matter to rest. NJMauthor (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Renovations
Hello, I will add some concise information on ninjutsu practices in the next few days. This will include some historical espionage, survival and escape methods, and a brief mention of weapons. The sections on ninjutsu as a combat martial art, along with modern claims and controversies will be left for future editors. ~ A Morozov  &#9001;talk&#9002; 09:12, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

"Kick Ass Moves?"
A picture in the article reads: "Masaaki Hatsumi demonstrating his techniques on Mind, Body & Kick Ass Moves." Is this some kind of joke?210.133.127.14 (talk) 01:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

``Mind, Body & Kick Ass Moves`` is just the title of a BBC program on Eastern martial arts. ~ A Morozov  &#9001;talk&#9002; 06:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

missing section of ninja/ninjitsu healing
a major missing subject are healing techniques which are not covered and should be added, lil 5 rangs sr 69.121.221.97 (talk) 15:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Hatsumi and Hayes
Would anyone be willing to participate in a talk page investigation (note: this is not OR, because it is not being inserted into the article) into the validity of Hatsumi and Hayes as reliable sources on Ninjutsu? NJMauthor (talk) 20:34, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Central Intelligence Agency Comment on Ninjutsu
I am a CIA Operative who has been asked to deliver comments on Ninjutsu to the general world because we have many recruits coming from the various organizations that teach this art. Essentially, Ninjutsu, Ninpo, Budo Taijutsu, Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan, et cetera, are not very good martial art forms. They preform about as well as Tae Kwon Do, Ed Parker's American Kempo Karate, Aikido, Capoeria, Monkey Style Kung Fu, Drunken Monkey Kung Fu, and a few others I could mention. Recent information indicates that the Japanese Intelligence Community supported Dr. Maasaki Hatsumi in supporting a hoax that the Ninja phenomenon has a legitimate nine-hundred year history and applicability to modern fighting. Sadly, the primary defensive postures of Ninjutsu, Ichimonji no Kamae and Doko no Kamae, are not fast enough to defend against modern karate offense, which is both fast and which can follow one attack with others in sequences of six attacks or more. Sadly, Japan did fool the West as well as much of the world with the Budo Taijutsu material. Japan was motivated to do this because the whole world is imitating Japanese Karate for military and intelligence use. In a similar way, Brazilian Jujutsu was started by a Japanese immigrant to Brazil who had ties to Japanese Intelligence, and the Gracie family is now aware of some very lethal defenses for manuevers like double-leg and single-leg takedowns, for example. The Gracies are researching other grappling methods with Americans who are exploring wrestling and grappling in a style called SOFT. My management will contact Wikipedia employees to verify that my information here is correct and permitted (and not a 'leak' of intelligence information). People interested in joining U.S. Government agencies such as the CIA should investigate Karate training, in any of the 591 styles practiced in the United States, or better yet, contact us early about your curiosity about Government work and we can tell you about our no-commitment pledge program as well as give recommendations about how you should train to get ready for Government service. Espionage lifestyles are the best around, even though the work and life are nothing like you would expect (the life is closer to Austin Powers than James Bond!) For the world's intelligence communities, I'll list some of my common code names here: "h" (United Kingdom), "667" (Russia), "Leviathan" (France), "Mr. Taco" (China), as well as "g" and "Zero" (International). If anyone wants to add comments this post, please do so, especially if you're in the intelligence community somewhere in the world and have no handier way of getting in touch with me. I will be checking this area periodically following 12 August 2010 as my schedule permits, but not indefinately. I don't mind if anyone tries to flame me with their comments, but please leave these remarks for others, since repeating myself is a nuisance. Have a good day and thanks for reading. Protect America, someone has to. - "Montgomery", "Priest". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.97.159.47 (talk) 22:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads-up, Mr. Taco. ~ A Morozov  &#9001;talk&#9002; 05:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Wrong source?
Source #2 has nothing to do with the claim it is supposed to be supporting... Instead, it's an author of a website saying they don't believe Ninjutsu is a valid Koryu art. ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.42.226 (talk) 17:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

the first ninja, were farmers they didnt call themself ninja's, they just had the desire to fight back attacks from government, government being (the shogun and his samurai), these farmers used weapons that farmers use to work the "land", swords were illegle,, only after successfully defeating the government or shogun, thus gainning the respect and admiration of the "people". the shogun had to recognize them as a sovereign power. so in between the people and the shogun and stories of valor the name ninja was born. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.76.232.10 (talk) 14:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Is The Bracer Even Real?
Tactical Strike Brace is only in Batman movie, should it be on the ninjutsu page? 陳鬼 (talk) 09:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Remove it if you feel it is not appropriate and unreferenced.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 15:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

more schools
there are more modern schools of ninjutsu then the ones noted. jissen ninpo budo taijutsu is a good one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.80.5 (talk) 03:46, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Ninja≠User of Kama or Sai.
I mean no offensive comment to anyone, but I am a student in the To-Shin Do League, and noticed several errors in this article before I edited them. For example, this article stated at one time that ninja used sai and kama. Neither of these were used, as both are Okinawan, not Japanese. The writer also stated that the deeds done by ninja were dishonorable. This is debatable, as many people also say that ninja were of the samurai class, and all samurai had to follow bushido. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shinobi 224 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, wow
Someone vandalized this whole page, without discussion, without even edit comment, and no one does anything?

I'm disappointed, you guys. Be more vigilant sometimes, okay? --194.145.185.229 (talk) 16:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments
1. Ninjutsu was developed by groups of people mainly from the Iga Province and Kōka, Shiga of Japan.

This sentence doesn't sound good. I propose using "Iga and Shiga provinces" which flows much better.

2. Shuriken appears under two categories in the "Weapons and equipment" section.

ICE77 (talk) 04:43, 27 March 2012 (UTC)