Talk:Nipo Strongheart

advise on possible pictures
So there are a few possibilities that I know of and certainly open to more finds if people find them…:


 * , probably the earliest available image of him before his first tour for the YMCA group. Because of scanning the balance is not right but the picture seems... mmm "photogenic" ? An attractive picture. I mostly like this one the best - better even if it could be rescanned nicely hoping the original was ok. Problem is copyright - seems pretty tightly exclusive? See
 * This photo is from The New York Times in 1917. This is before 1923, and is in the public domain. We hope (talk) 00:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Cool - we are a go! --Smkolins (talk) 00:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Template:PD-US Tacking a copy of the PD-1923 license here too. :) We hope (talk) 00:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)


 * , my guess is after returning from the tour. Copyright just at the bottom. Exclusive.
 * , 1929 about near the end of his main touring days, so "at his peak", but again copyright seems exclusive.
 * - image seems a bit washed out and the website doesn't seem to say anything about copyright anywhere but I'd like a better solution than assuming.

Any thoughts? --Smkolins (talk) 23:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


 * That was quick - and off we go to more refinement! --Smkolins (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Ideas for lede changes
Hi, thinking of picking up this page as a copy edit project. I think the information needs some work on clarity and grammar. Proposing to work through the article piece by piece. I am not an expert in all wiki policies but I do have to write professionally so feel like I might be able to help out a bit.

First change proposal relates to the lede.

Currently lede is:


 * "Nipo T. Strongheart (born May 15, 1891 in White Swan, Washington, died December 31, 1966 in Hollywood, California) was a Yakama Nation Native American lecturer-performer in the Lyceum and Chautauqua movements as well as a technical advisor to Hollywood films about Native Americans who helped reform stereotypes and topics in light of Native concerns. He helped form the National Congress of American Indians and was important in the development of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 signed by President Calvin Coolidge in 1924.[1]"

I propose:


 * "Nipo T. Strongheart (born May 15, 1891 in White Swan, Washington, died December 31, 1966 in Hollywood, California) was a Yakama Nation Native American lecturer-performer and technical advisor to Hollywood films. His work helped reform stereotypes about Native Americans [and topics in light of Native concerns - not sure what this means - can we expand/clarify?? ]. He helped form the National Congress of American Indians and was important in the development of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 signed by President Calvin Coolidge in 1924.[1]"

Reason for changes:

First sentence is too long and gets unwieldy with too many conjunctions. Also, the bit about him reforming topics in light of Native American concerns is unclear (what topics? what concerns?). Hoping for further input here from any editor. TheDucksNuts (talk) 01:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * How about:

"Nipo T. Strongheart (born May 15, 1891 in White Swan, Washington, died December 31, 1966 in Hollywood, California) was a Yakama Nation Native American lecturer-performer and technical advisor to Hollywood films. After some childhood experiences as a performer and some time in military service he began a life-long action across several careers advocating for Native American concerns and sharing Native American culture. He started out as a performer-lecturer in the Lyceum and Chautauqua circuits of fairs where he was known for informing attendees on Native American culture and advocating for policy changes and respect for Native peoples. This culminated with helping the National Congress of American Indians form and was important in the development of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 signed by President Calvin Coolidge. When he was involved in film production he helped reform stereotypes about Native Americans, as a technical advisor, like not all use feathered headdresses, bows and arrows, totem-poles or hunted buffalo - he often managed to translate movie scripts into the actual language of the Indians portrayed and matched wardrobe and props as well. In a few cases he was able to drastically revise the substance of the movie project.

How's that? --Smkolins (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

BTW note the article is up for Good Article review so at some point in the next days or months (loose timeline!) it will get "graded" on a much more specific level. --Smkolins (talk) 02:10, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Copy-editing etc
--Boson (talk) 12:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I notice some citations are flagged as having an accessdate without the required URL. --Boson (talk) 00:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Northwest" needs explaining (possibly Wikilink).
 * Though it is linked, a brief parenthetical/appositional explanation of Chautauqua might be appropriate.
 * I think the article would benefit from a more concise, encyclopedic style. For instance, I don't think we need a blow-by-blow account of his tours, including each high school where he spoke, etc. As a copy-editor, though, one is somewhat reluctant to condense on the scale necessary.
 * : missing urls - that is because I accessed the LA Times through university resources and there is no public url to their stuff. Is there a normal way of handling this?
 * : northwest addressed, partly by renaming
 * : for the Chautauqua/Lyceum… I refer to it in the context of fairs and performances but certainly more could be said… added some bits with cites.
 * : as for the blow-by-blow… Well this might be one of the big things hinted as something of a change. I had wondered about it. A simple version could be to say "he traveled widely" except that there is only some discussion among non-newspaper references, (it is my understanding one of the scholars listed is working on biography) yet it is a big part of who he was and what he did for quite some years, and how he engaged in the work he thought was so important and related also to his support for the citizenship act. I also thought it could be a valuable addition because people often come to wikipedia for the citations and this would be a way such could more easily be found. Is it really distracting to say it? --Smkolins (talk) 18:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I see some synergy developing that will change the article for the better so… go for it. (sigh) I'll help from the edges where I can. --Smkolins (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

requested clarification
, about "after the group failed to find opportunities with Indians in 1945." - yes page 12 of History in Hollywood by Nipo T. Strongheart refers to this fact. He details that the producers sent teams to try to arrange for Indian cooperation with the movie and failed (in fact they had been tasked to higher 8 or 10 Indians). Strongheart was then hired and succeeded (and hired 50.) Is that what you want to know? I'm not used to syntax to ask questions - I'm used to people talking on talk pages about it. --Smkolins (talk) 02:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * My problem was that the source says something like
 * "In 1945 [the] producer for Universal Pictures was in preparation for a picture based on the History of the Oregon Trial, called CANYON PASSAGE . . ."
 * and the Wikipedia article had
 * ". . .in the R. G. Springsteen production of Oregon Trail Scouts after the group failed to find opportunities with Indians in 1945." But (at first glance at least) Oregon Trails Scouts seems to have been produced by Republic Pictures, which is described as independent.

So there is an apparent discrepancy with regard to the name of the film and the name of the studio, which I wasn't clear about.
 * --Boson (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm - in my mind I have a memory that the project was renamed but I don't have that at my finger tips. Have to do some more work on that. Maybe I read it one of the sources and then forgot to link it. --Smkolins (talk) 00:08, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmmm - might have jumped the gun on the p12 connection. That (about hiring 100 after others failed in 1945) refers to the 1946 Canyon Passage mention a couple lines earlier in the article. It is NOT about Oregon Trail Scouts - that movie is mentioned because of other citations. The Oregon Trail connection was one of the later ones I had come across in citations - maybe I split the sentence structures. In any case the citations are destinct - just a matter of moving the " after the group failed to find opportunities with Indians in 1945" and its citation to the Canyon Passage part a couple lines up.--Smkolins (talk) 01:21, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

"appeared himself with other Yakama chiefs."
this alternation is more than I believe the source supports. Nipo could just have been an off-stage producer and not "on stage" with the Yakama chiefs. That's how I read the sources. I'd suggest just that the premiere had extra weight because it had actual Yakama chiefs invited to the premier, not that Nipo was on stage with them. --Smkolins (talk) 02:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I have changed this a bit. --Boson (talk) 16:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

revision on cemetery
Hi, while two sources (one weak and probably dependent on the other, old) say he was buried in Satus Pointe Cemetery I've found a more recent citation saying he was burried in Smohalla cemetery. Here's the cite:

--Smkolins (talk) 02:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

clarification on "descution"
About "He said that one of the 'grievances against white culture was the wanton and ruthless descution of animals essential to man's sustenance.'" I beleive the word was broken - it should be "destruction" but will check. --Smkolins (talk) 10:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * If it's in the original source, we should at least add "[sic]", but it might be better to paraphrase the whole statement using indirect speech. --Boson (talk) 11:47, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The word is indeed "destruction": "…greatest grievances against the whites in the early days was the wanton and ruthless destruction of animals essential to man's sustenance." is the actual quote of that section.--Smkolins (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

not "naming names" as much
About "…Strongheart was able to continue though not 'naming names' as much.[4]:p65[not in citation given]" Perhaps the confusion is that "naming names" is in quotes. No it isn't a quote - but it is a colloquialism, which was the intent. And the actual pages for the citation should be pages 76-79. Apologies. --Smkolins (talk) 13:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

self-determination
about "…something largely achieved with Native American self-determination"

I don't know how much to expand on "largely" as that is why it is wikilinked. I suppose that self-detemrination could be expanded upon….--Smkolins (talk) 13:34, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Identity
Is this all about the same person? One source names a "George Strongheart". Why is this thought to be the same person? One source names a Chief Strongheart who was allegedly the son of Chief Running Elk and grandson of Chief Standing Rock. But we are told Nipo Strongheart didn't grow up with his family and had a non-Indian father (and wasn't adopted till later). So why should Roosevelt have carried him around on his back (as the source states)? I haven't looked into this properly yet,but it looks a little strange. --Boson (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So the next question really is: which sources should be discounted completely, what can be treated as fact, and how should potentially deceptive claims be dealt with? Should we discuss what the newspapers wrote at all, should we treat it as propaganda, or should we disregard it? Can we use the autobiograhical sources at all? --Boson (talk) 21:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The Muntz PhD and other sources - and the flavor of some of the coverage - makes it plain the claimed heritage in the newspapers was almost completely fiction. Almost all of them refer to being descended from chiefs. The closest he actually came to any such relationship was his first marriage which was, apparently, to a real chief's daughter but not Yakama. The Muntz source in particular describes some times where he tried to dissuade the use of such information. I'd also presume it is part of why the Yakama and he were estranged but I don't have a source saying so though the Fisher source seems to differ with Muntz about a cynicism in her work about it all (and in my reading Muntz goes back and forth about being cynical.) I've only tried to use the newspaper to state the fact of being somewhere, reports of how the presentations was written up afterwards (usually along the lines of changing the views of the audience), or where echoed in some other better source and Fisher and Muntz do mention the performance lectures.

As for other "Strongheart"s - I recall coming across a couple. Almost all sources name him as Nipo Strongheart (a unique name from all I've read) but these also occur after his public career and George Strongheart (as noted in the article) only once at the beginning of that public career, matches his mainstream "white" name of George  Mitchell, matches his claim of seeking military service in 1917 and matches the history of being in the Wild West shows. However there were other Stronghearts - one was a Lakota who may well be descended from a chief but who was arrested and in a prison in a town at the time he - this Strongheart - toured there (it's also mentioned in the PhD.) There is also a Strongheart in the 1970s in Alask I ran across. I didn't want to get into it but it was that Lakota Strongheart who went to Wisconsin and had a camp named after him that he is asking about in his 1954 article. The one mention of a Strongheart that I feel least certain of is the actor in the Indiana movie which is why I used the cautious language. Basically the publicity used elements of his personal history and freely and carelessly mixed with with made up things and things about other people. But I never ran across another Strongheart Indian actor. Rather than get into it I mostly used the newspaper clippings to say the least thing and avoided almost all of the other information. So for example - Roosevelt. The element of truth was seeking to volunteer in 1917 for the Rough Rider rebirth attempted but nothing beyond that. This is why I referred to the yellow journalism of the day. --Smkolins (talk) 00:06, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I had overlooked the connection with his "mainstream" name George. It seems likely that he was meant, but it's still really conjecture, so it might be best to remove the beginning of that section and start with "For the period of WWI, he was employed by the YMCA . . .". It doesn't really add a lot. It might also be appropriate to give more weight to the invented background, so that anyone following the references is aware that some sources are not true. For the time being, it's probably best to continue with the copy-editing and sort out any other issues later. --Boson (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a big deal to me - I was surprised to see George used but I've also seen cases where Indians use combinations of names for convenience. Both the Muntz and Fisher sources speak to the invented history but take different approaches on it. Muntz, as I say, reviews it as a basis for the troubled relationship between Indian and white but into the details that even Strongheart tried to set it right in an extended exchange but wraps it all up in a sense of melodramatic failure and cynicism while Fisher suggests this is natural to public personas of the day and even an authentic Indian cultural norm of being mischievous (Fisher's analysis - letting the white man have the image to distract while he is about the serious business of changing hearts by his stories both about nobility in the Indian cultures and about how badly they were treated.) Both may easily be true but are a complex matter to render easily. But a section speaking to the "booster" (Muntz' term) nature of the biographies is fine but probably best where the article speaks of having tried to overcome the nature of the publicity and then cite Fisher about his rationale about why Strongheart did it. --Smkolins (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW there are a couple newspaper mentions of Strongheart earning a law degree and being a professor at USC in the 1930s. Unfortunately I can find no other reference to this. Perhaps Fisher will find it for his biography and if so and when published then it could be dwelt on in the article.--Smkolins (talk) 10:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

continuing work
While CE edits continue I wanted to mention a content related source for progress of the article - it was mentioned above but towards the end of the review. See though I'm not sure if the focus should be tight on that chapter or more narrow or broad… the pages so far cite other than the chapter. --Smkolins (talk) 13:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

unwrapped citations
Hi,

Just a comment how this worked for me about unwrapped citations. When creating citations I tend to use copy and paste from Wikipedia:Citation templates which naturally keeps things readable while editing. I'm aware there are other editing formulations and new wysiwyg tools trying to integrate reference management technology into the system. But they don't work well in my situation or at all - I'm on a Mac and use Safari. My minority situation seems to create several structural problems from the majority usages. I wish platform neutrality were more the spirit of the age. --Smkolins (talk) 13:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)