Talk:No Country for Old Men/Archive 4

Addition to synopsis
It seems to me that the description of the car accident scene towards the end of the third act should include a reference to Shigurh's bribe to the young boys to remain quiet. The moment is noteworthy as Shigurh's only interaction with characters in the film in which he is not firmly in control, and that the scene (it seems to me) should thus be understood with reference to that. I tried adding a reference to this in this edit, but the edit was reverted by another editor. I thought I might solicit opinions as to whether or not we can find room in the synopsis for what seems to me to be an important point. Best, CCS81 (talk) 04:54, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for considering this. I don't agree, for a couple reasons. Despite what you say, there are other times in the movie when Chigurh is vulnerable ("not in control" is a misnomer). In fact, this is the second time he sustains a serious injury. So it's not unique and it's not essential to an understanding of the rest of the movie or article. Also, I take note of the fact that many editors have made suggestions for the plot summary and this hasn't been one of them. If you look back a couple years, there was mention of this but at that time the summary was longer. When it was cut back to conform to the guidelines, this detail was removed. On balance, I don't think your case is very strong, but maybe you have more to say about it. --Ring Cinema (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well it entails interpretation, but this detail of the boys is significant insofar as it marks Chigurh's final moment on-screen. The boys receive much more camera time than his damaged vehicle, which is only onscreen for a second, but nonetheless is included in the current plot synopsis while the boys are not.  Furthermore, despite Chigurh's having been injured earlier, the interaction with the boys in unique (and hence I argue significant) in that Chigurh does not kill them or deliberate upon killing them as he does with nearly every other character, but rather pleads with them.  I argue that this moment is central to the scene, much more so than the damaged vehicle that is mentioned in our current synopsis.  Also, some of the changes that you reinstated for precision I argue are superfluous: e.g., is "local hospital" really necessary instead of "hospital"?  Hence I'm going to take another stab at adding the point about the boys, worded economically, and see if any other editors want to weigh in.  Cheers, CCS81 (talk) 13:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your thoughts. Personally, I am unconvinced. For one thing, screen time comparisons of inanimate objects and minor characters isn't a sensible way to determine the importance of the characters. Clearly the vehicle and its condition has to be mentioned while the boys do not, and it seems that a lot of editors agree with that assessment. There is definitely something to think about where the boys are concerned, if you're into that kind of thing, but it doesn't seem to rise to the level of real difference in an understanding of the film or Chigurh. As usual, Chigurh plays on ignorance as a species of innocence to escape a conventional accounting. Maybe you can cash that out, though, in a persuasive way. I certainly agree that, were the plot summary 20% longer, the boys would have to be included. (Is "local hospital" necessary? Well, it is if you want to tell the reader that he wasn't taken to a US hospital, for example.) That other change, though, about removing her from harm's way, is good usage.) --Ring Cinema (talk) 08:43, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well if I'm alone in seeing the boys as the crux of the scene, then so be it. But it seems to me that the point of that final Chigurh scene is that Chigurh's relationship with the young is quite different than his relationship with the old, insofar as he is vulnerable to them and treats them with respect and humility.  It's the only interaction in the film win which he meets other characters on their terms, not his own, and certainly the only scene in which he gives anyone anything other than death.  I don't see how it is the case that he 'plays on ignorance as a species of innocence' in his 'usual' way here, and you would probably have to say more to convince me that this interaction is 'usual' by the standards set in the film.  The state of his car, conversely, seems only incidental and insignificant to his character or the plot, as its destruction is a vehicle (no pun intended) to lead to his interaction with the boys.  Furthermore, I don't see why comparing the screen time between the car (just a few frames) and the boys (multiple shots and settings) is not sensible, as you say; in fact, screen time is really the only way to measure significance in an abstract film like this.  Their status as inanimate objects and minor characters does not seem to me to make them disanalogous, furthermore, since we're talking about a plot summary in which inanimate objects and minor characters compete for space as equals.  But if you think it's clear that the vehicle and its condition has to be mentioned while the boys do not, I don't think I can argue you out of that, since it seems to hinge on interpretation and clearly we interpret that final scene differently.  Since no other editors have weighed in, we can't really know one way or the other who has the strength of numbers on her side, can we?  Oh well.  (Also, to 'send' one 'out of harms way' is idiomatic and hence figurative, and thus fundamentally imprecise.  But maybe that's in line with what you're saying in your parenthetical note.  I'm not quite sure.)  Cheers, CCS81 (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So you are insisting that the scene of a car crash could be included in a way that excludes the vehicle and includes the witnesses or bystanders? I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. As for your interpretive ideas, you are welcome to them, although to my taste they are reductive, inventive, dubious and not very meticulous. Since you are insisting that Chigurh is the way you think he is, my conclusion is that you are talking about yourself on some level. Thanks again for your interest in improving the article. --Ring Cinema (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Ring, your prose is admirably economical, but your arguments are downright bizarre. How I went from talking about to Chigurh to talking about myself I'll never know, precisely because you lack the skills to enlighten me on the subject.  Where the reduction, invention, dubiousness, and lack of meticulousness come in I imagine will remain shrouded in mystery as well, as you've failed to cite any evidence whatsoever to support your claims against me (aside from the bit about the car, which is a straw man representation of my argument.)  But as Wittgenstein put it, the limits of one's language marks the limits of one's world, so it seems that in darkness we shall both remain.  Cheers to you, CCS81 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC
Given that the vocal editors are clearly divided on some key issues regarding the plot summary, I would say that an RfC is warranted. I will post one sometime in the next few days, after everyone has had time to focus their thoughts and hone in on some key areas that need improvement. If anyone has any suggestions for wording the RfC or otherwise, please speak up! Best, CCS81 (talk) 04:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * My proposal for the wording of the RfC is as follows. Please post any feedback.  "RfC: How can we improve the style and content of the 'Plot' section?" CCS81 (talk) 04:50, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine with me, but Ring Cinema might object that it presupposes the plot summary needs improving, I suppose. Popcornduff (talk) 11:40, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * We'll see if Ring has any feedback on it. I wanted to phrase it in a neutral way that is not unfaithful to anyone's perspective.  Maybe this is better: "RfC: How, if at all, can we improve the style and content of the 'Plot' section?" CCS81 (talk) 17:31, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * That would be an unmanageable mess and the plot summary worse for it. Remember, both of you were completely mistaken about the ending, right? Totally got it wrong and would have changed the article. That wasn't enough for you? How obvious does it have to be for you to realize that maybe you are in a discussion with someone who knows the subject better than you? Are you really trying to improve the article? --Ring Cinema (talk) 21:45, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ring, given your professed interest in improving the article, you should welcome such a proposal! Since we can't seem to see eye to eye on our own, let's take advantage of this rich network of editors to help us address our concerns regarding the copy.  The article will certainly be better for the diversified attention, and if things are really as you say regarding the article's current situation, then you have nothing to worry about.  (Also, since you asked, I have not been given any evidence that I am in a discussion with such a person, but I eagerly await such evidence.)  Cheers, CCS81 (talk) 22:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, I'm not really sure to what this "completely mistaken about the ending" is referring. In fact, I thought we were right and you were wrong.  Hence the need for the RfC to clarify this and other points.  If you are confused as to how RfCs are helpful for articles with disputed content, please see WP:RFC.  Cheers, CCS81 (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Plot section
Yo. Here are some examples of the unnecessary or confusing details in the current plot summary. (I know lots of editors have worked on this, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.)


 * Chigurh is introduced as "a ruthless hitman". In the same paragraph, Chigurh "ruthlessly slaughters" Mexicans. So you've told us that he's ruthless and apparently also does things ruthlessly. It's weak to describe Chigurh as ruthless but omit one of the major early indicators of this trait: that he kills his employers.
 * The summary specifies that the vent cover has been removed with a dime. The dime is a reference to how Chigurh removed the vent earlier in the film, which isn't mentioned in our plot summary. If you don't mention the dime in the earlier scene, mentioning it here has no meaning or value. There's no connection to be drawn.
 * "Chigurh leaves the house, alone" - if you don't specify that Chigurh leaves the house alone, the reader will not wonder if anyone was with him. You don't need to specify this.
 * "he is injured in a car accident and limps away from his damaged vehicle." We don't need to specify that the car is damaged. It's not important to the plot and the reader can assume it anyway.
 * "Then he woke up." We don't need to mention that Bell woke up from the dream. We know he woke up and we know that's the end of the dream because we don't describe anything after it.

There are bigger structural problems. For example, it's fine for Wikipedia plot summaries to be written out of sequence, but there's no advantage to writing "He has already strangled a sheriff's deputy" etc when we can just describe that scene as it happens in the film. That's simpler to read and understand. Popcornduff (talk) 00:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * There aren't bigger structural problems, but I appreciate your suggestions. Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 14:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * "Alone": I understand why it's there, given the context. Seems all right but it's not much either way.
 * "Damaged vehicle": we have it right since if the vehicle wasn't damaged, why would he leave it? Other motives suggest themselves if the car still operated. So it's a clarifying detail.
 * "woke up": He did wake up, though. We're not in his dream at the end of the movie. --Ring Cinema (talk) 14:33, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that there are bigger structural problems and cast a vote in support of the changes proposed by Popcornduff. Ring, you will want to read WP:OWN.  CCS81 (talk) 17:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * There are many, many editors who have contributed to this article over a long period of time. Popcorn's example of a structural problem is sorely lacking. As written, it's perfectly clear and well above average. Of course, I am interested in improving the article, which is the reason I immediately accepted his good suggestions. Are you interested in improving the article, CCS81? It seems more likely that you are engaging in some kind of ad hominem time wasting, since you never mentioned any of Popcorn's issues and he never mentioned any of yours. Have you ever accepted anyone else's ideas? That you apparently have not speaks for itself. I'd like to suggest that we do our best to improve the article, which is what I've been doing all along. --Ring Cinema (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * What is the utility of explaining Chigurh's escape from custody after it happens? Non-linear summarising useful in some articles but not here. Consider again my version: "West Texas in June 1980 is desolate, expansive country, and Ed Tom Bell laments the increasing violence in a region where he, like his father and grandfather before him, has risen to the office of sheriff. Anton Chigurh, a ruthless hitman, strangles a sheriff's deputy to escape custody and steals a car by using a captive bolt pistol to kill the driver." Is this not the simplest solution? What is the downside of this?
 * There are other criticisms I could make of the wordiness and unnecessary complexity of the current revision, but getting into nitpicking arguments rarely persuades anyone in my experience. Oh well. Popcornduff (talk) 20:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The three main characters are taken one paragraph at a time. It's a little bit obvious, isn't it? Particularly after you noticed it wasn't strictly chronological. After looking at it again, I suppose someone reading it for the first time might observe that the summary becomes strictly chronological at the point where the main characters directly interact. Good idea! Oh well. I am interested in improving the article, as you know, so please mention anything from your high degree of discernment and understanding. I agree, nitpicking wouldn't really go too far in the service of the article. I notice that some of your main criticisms weren't really that great, so your general criticism pales in that light. Thanks for your attention to the article. --Ring Cinema (talk) 22:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks (not) for the barbed praise, but listen: good prose contains no unnecessary words and detail. You seem to admit that the word "alone" doesn't make much difference to the prose - so delete it, and apply the same rigour to the rest. Popcornduff (talk) 22:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I think you recognize why the word is there. It serves its purpose. --Ring Cinema (talk) 00:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I presume (since you haven't explained) that you think it's important to clarify that Chigurh was alone. But be honest with yourself: if the word wasn't there, would the reader wonder if Chigurh had someone with him? The answer is no. The word adds no information. Popcornduff (talk) 00:57, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe you're not being honest with yourself in admitting that my comments have been spot on. Look at what I said. --Ring Cinema (talk) 02:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Ring, your mention of ad hominem arguments is hilarious, given that it's the only type of argument you've shown yourself to be capable of mounting. You need to get some other editors into the conversation, lest you continue to violate WP:OWN.  Popcornduff has introduced several improvements to the prose in the article, which you revert categorically and without proper justification.  Get some other editors to back you up, or stop maintaining a stranglehold on the article.  CCS81 (talk) 05:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you are mistaken about almost everything. Look again at my responses above and you will see that I have tried to respond substantively to Popcorn's proposals. In no case did I reject a proposal because of its source. Have you done that, CCS? Have you accepted any of my ideas? Perhaps you can correct me, but I get the feeling you haven't. Some of Popcorn's suggestions have been acted on, so it's not right to say that I'm categorically opposed to alterations. My standard is that the changes should be good ones and, when suggested, I am happy to see them implemented. You, on the other hand, CCS, have offered no substantive responses to my posts. Instead, you have twice now mistakenly made accusations about me, probably because I didn't agree with you last month. Perhaps, to get yourself back on track, you can make a substantive comment next. Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 14:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Gladly:

A quick scan of good articles on films will show you that actor names need not be included in the summary (American Graffiti, Beetlejuice, Reservoir Dogs, etc.), as they are listed below in the 'cast' section. These should be removed from the synopsis given that length is a concern. Ring, in your response, you need not thank me for my interest in the article, mention my right to an opinion, or speculate wildly (and offensively) on my inner life. Please focus your response only on the points above. Cheers, CCS81 (talk) 15:44, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Non-linear narrations should be avoided, and Chigurh appears earlier than presented here; so Chigurh should be mentioned in the first paragraph. Move the sentence introducing character via strangulation to the first.
 * 2) To understand Chigurh, we should be told that he kills his employers.
 * 3) The mention of the dime in the air duct is confusing, minor, and unnecessary. This detail should be cut.
 * 4) "Alone" is superfluous in the sentence on Chigurh leaving the house.
 * 5) "Sending" one "out of harms way" is idiomatic, and hence imprecise for an encyclopedia article.
 * 6) "Car accident" and "damaged vehicle" are redundant. I still maintain that this space would be good to address the boys Chigurh interacts with after the wreck, but I won't push that point here.
 * 7) "Then he woke up" is a limp and unnecessary end to the summary. It would be a stronger, and shorter, read if the summary ended with the summary of the dreams.
 * Yep. Popcornduff (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

1. A poor idea that would degrade the excellent organization of the article.

2. That is a good idea that was removed to make the word count.

3. The story is told with small details sometimes and this is an example.

4. Already discussed and you add nothing new. I would like you to explain why the function of this word isn't worthwhile.

5. I already endorsed this change, as you know.

6. Not redundant, and this is so very obvious. How many different kinds of car accidents can you list that don't involve damage to the driver's vehicle? On the other hand, there are many ways to explain this incident. Maybe you would like to review the many drafts over the last two years to get an idea of what was rejected.

7. Actually, this is exactly how the movie ends, so, if you don't like it, I would suggest you take it up with the Coen brothers. And, as already mentioned, we wouldn't want to give the impression that the film ends in his dream. Making the summary less faithful to the film seems like a bad idea on its face. --Ring Cinema (talk) 14:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * 1. You haven't explained why the idea is "poor" or why the current article organization is "excellent".


 * 2. Wordcount is not the debate here. My version of the summary is actually shorter than the current version, leaving ample room for extra detail, where appropriate. (For the record, I agree with CCS81 that the boys who sell the shirt to Chigurh are worth mentioning, too.)


 * 3. Your "story is told in the small details" argument is vague, but I think we agree on this one. Mentioning the dime is OK as long as we mention it both times (as the article does now). This is because it leads the reader to understand that Chigurh unscrewed the vent later in the story. We could just spell it out instead - delete both mentions of the dime, and outright say that Chigurh unscrewed the vent - but that might be a little dubious because it borders on original research and isn't what the film explicitly shows us.


 * 4. I have already explained twice why this word is useless and your counter-arguments have been mysterious to say the least: "Seems all right but it's not much either way" and " It serves its purpose". What purpose? The burden is on you to defend its inclusion, because you have two editors here who can't see what you're seeing.


 * 6. The damaged car detail is redundant because we don't need it to explain why he leaves his car. Try to look at it from the perspective of someone reading this sentence without this information. "As he drives through town, he is injured in a car accident and limps away from the vehicle." Will the reader stop and say: "Wait, this doesn't make sense, why did he get out of his car?" No. They can easily presume the car was damaged or he is unable to drive because of his injuries.


 * 7. Removing "then he woke up" does not give the impression that the film "ends in his dream", because we were never "in" the dream in the first place: "Bell shares two dreams with his wife." We know at the point the scene begins that he has already woken and is explaining the dreams to his wife. Popcornduff (talk) 16:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Res ipsa loquitur. The summary is clear this way and reflects the story. A summary can be hung on chronology or character or setting or whatever. All have been used to good effect. As I'm sure you can see, this summary is particularly well organized, combining methods very skillfully.
 * The judgment was made to leave this out to include something else. In other words, what is now in the summary is more important than what is not in the summary. So, you see, to state the obvious, including this item instead of what is now in the summary would be to include something of less significance, not more. That would be bad, not good. And in my opinion, this is pretty far down the list of the next thing I'd include if there was space, so it's a pretty easy call.
 * No, it's not at all vague. It's easy to understand and obvious. It's not impressive to not get easy things.
 * You haven't explained anything about it at all. You just said you want to remove it. Given the way the word is being used, what is wrong with that use?
 * So it's actually not redundant since it explains why he leaves his car, as you say. Should we explain that? Well, yeah, we might want to at least imply that he didn't drive away because of the vehicle. However, it's not so obvious how to handle Chigurh's exit from the film, which is why it has been redrafted so many times.
 * Again, this is EXACTLY the same ending as the film. EXACTLY. If you don't like the ending of the summary, you are actually talking about your feelings about the ending of the film itself. I'm trying to think of a reason that you wouldn't want the summary to accurately state the ending of the film. I can't think of a good one. --Ring Cinema (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * From the numeration in your previous response, since it has shifted:
 * Give evidence that these have "been used to good effect." The summary is clumsily organized to this degree and would be better suited by the use of chronology.  In service of this point, I note the article's demotion from good article status.
 * The judgment was made hastily. Two editors have now judged this judgment to be incorrect.  One editor has judged it to be correct.  Therefore, unless this one editor can find more editors to back their judgment, the new judgment now stands that this is more important than what is in the summary.
 * Speaking of vague, I have no idea what "It's not impressive to not get easy things" is supposed to imply. You have not given evidence to demonstrate that the wording is not vague, but have merely stated that it isn't.
 * I too am confused as to why we are retaining "alone".
 * I wasn't aware that "sending" one "out of harms way" was a removal that you endorsed. You weren't clear on your point previously.  I will change it.
 * Given the shared frustration with its current wording, it seems that the current draft is unacceptable, and the passage on Chigurh's exit needs more work.
 * I asked you to frame your responses without speculation regarding my, or anyone's, unstated inner thoughts, or unsubstantiated claims about what one is "actually" talking about or "actually" thinks. Your insistence on arguing your point relative to such "actual" state of affairs in the minds of your interlocutors is lazy, offensive, and simply false, and makes you insufferable to deal with.  You need to find better ways to argue your points.  Cheers, CCS81 (talk) 18:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * This is well known so I'm sure you have your own examples in mind. Perhaps the obvious example is the one before you. The characters are introduced separately until they meet. I'm sure you can't improve on that if you want the summary to be clear.
 * No, it wasn't made hastily. Maybe you'd like to review the edits on the plot summary from the last few years or take a look in the talk pages of all the ink spilled about the plot section. It would be nice to include this item but something more important would have to go.
 * It's quite basic and well understood by those who would think they are ready to edit a plot summary to realize that details are sometimes important plot points.
 * The word doesn't serve its purpose? Why not?
 * I think it would be hard to improve it. Your previous attempt was a failure.
 * Why are you engaged in name-calling? You and Popcorn made a clear error -- that is for sure. I tried to imagine the source of the mistake. I'm aware that it's not pleasant to encounter thoughtful resistance and an expectation that the article shouldn't be changed except to improve it. You don't like it, but I want to keep mistakes out of the article. --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I hesitate to contribute even more to this ridiculous debate, but Ring Cinema's (slightly unhinged) tirade about the ending in the RfC discussion below bothered me. I'll try to explain it one more time, so at least anyone else who might read this can understand where CCS81 and I are coming from.

"Then he woke up" is not how the film ends. It doesn't end with Bell waking up. The film ends some time after Bell has woken up. The last scene is Bell sitting in his house recounting dreams he had after having woken up from the dreams. So we know the dreams are already finished and now he is awake, because he's sitting right there, telling us about them.

It's fine to summarise the dreams he describes, but unnecessary to state "then he woke up" afterwards because that information is self-evident. It's already happened. The sentence is not only redundant but, well - not to put too fine a point on it - sounds kind of dumb. Popcornduff (talk) 10:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, in light of certain recent events, it seems I have another opportunity to rewrite the plot section and address the concerns CCS81 have.
 * I note that a previous editor questioned the utility of mentioning that Chigurh raises his feet to avoid getting Wells's blood on them. I'm sympathetic to that, and it's usually the kind of detail I omit. But I think in this case, it's important, because it's a clue to Carla Jean's fate - Chigurh checks his boots after he leaves the house.
 * Same story with the dime - seemingly not worth mentioning, until the dime by the air duct appears again later in the story.
 * I think the summary can still be tweaked and refined, so suggestions are welcome. Popcornduff (talk) 16:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Now for another kettle of fish...

I see no reason why the Themes and analysis of No Country for Old Men (film) article should exist. Right now, it consists of:


 * A flowery, muddled plot synopsis ("What ensues is a chase that tests the moral sense of everybody involved: Moss, in increasingly desperate straits begins to sense that the rugged toughness that saw him through the Vietnam War might not be enough"). Does Wikipedia need two summaries of this film's plot? One summary has caused anguish enough...
 * A meagre four paragraphs discussing the film's themes. This too is poorly written, with long sentences and a style closer to an essay than an encyclopaedic entry ("Characters, too, resist sharp definition"). Apart from the poor style, this isn't enough content to justify a separate article.

I propose we merge what useful content there is in the "Themes and analysis" article into the main No Country for Old Men (film) article. Thoughts? Popcornduff (talk) 16:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * That seems good to me, although I don't have strong feelings on the subject. CCS81 (talk) 16:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 *  Strongly Oppose Support delete or minimal merge per CCS81's 17:57 August 10 comments- This has been discussed before, fairly recently, and consensus was no one wants this cluttering the main article. Please read the archived discussion: Mmyers1976 (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Additional Comment - The Themes and Analysis article was once quite a bit longer. It read like a a film school student's thesis, one that would get a C at best because it was nothing but really long quotes, a total copyright violation issue. I opened a deletion discussion because of this, and that was roundly shot down, even though one other person acknowledged it was a copyright problem. I looked into fixing it, but it was a daunting endeavor, and no one else seemed to be interested in fixing it, so I nominated it for copyright violation review, and all the copyright violations were slashed, leaving the husk of an article you see now. I wouldn't oppose an outright deletion, but I know several other people would, so my only concern is that it doesn't get put back in the article, where last time it was there it kept growing and growing and became a mess. Those who saw that before don't wan it to happen again. So that's a little history on this article. Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I did check out the history of the page and the previous discussion, but your account of the history is useful. Thanks.


 * The previous merge proposal was back in 2013, when the Themes page was extraordinarily long. The Themes page is now rather short, especially discounting the lead and plot summary. Such a small amount of content doesn't justify a separate article, and the merged content would probably amount to two or three additional paragraphs in the film article after being copy-edited.


 * If, after we merge the articles, someone does take it upon themselves to greatly expand the section again - and assuming the expansion is justified - it can be moved back a separate article. Right now, there's no need for two. Popcornduff (talk) 15:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I defintely agree with you that what is there doesn't merit its own article. I'm not sure what is there even merits being a section within this article. First, it's a very incomplete analysis at best, and the only way to make it a complete analysis would be to include all the other stuff that, even if paraphrased, would make it so unwieldy that it would probably have to get spun off again. Second, I'm always a bit uneasy about literary analysis in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are supposed to be sources for facts, and literary analysis is by its very nature opinion. Sure, it's published opinion, but it is opinion nonetheless, and I always have to wonder, when I see it included in an article "why this opinion, why not other published opinions that are out there?" When Wikipedia editors add literary analysis into an article, it's likely they are going to add the analysis that they agree with, that resonates with them, and really the only people who are going to take the time to write sections or articles like "Themes and Analysis" are going to be the hardcore fans of a particular film. Even knowing these are good faith edits, there is an unavoidable POV issue. I think these kinds of articles/sections are best avoided in the interests of building an encyclopedia with a fundamental principle of Neutral Point of View, though I recognize this may not be a majority opinion here. At any rate, I've said my peace, and whichever way consensus goes on your proposal, I'll respect that; if the consensus is to merge what there is, I'll just watch to make sure it doesn't grow and get out of hand again. Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I definitely vote yes to merge. The content here can be compressed down even further and it just seems superfluous to have another page. Cuba46 (talk) 06:49, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Support: I agree with Mmyers's points above, and assuming the Analysis article itself can't be deleted, I think the best way to keep it under control is to merge it and trim it down seriously. CCS81 (talk) 15:47, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I am sorry if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse here, I really don't mean to be tiresome, but Popcornduff made a good point that the previous merger proposal was made in 2013, when "Themes and Analysis" was a much different article, and since CCS81 also seems to favor deletion and I don't think anyone else here really seems to find the article in its current shape necessary to keep, maybe it is a good time to point out that the last deletion proposal for "Themes and Analysis" was also made in 2013 when it was a very different article. Perhaps instead of merging it, there might now be consensus for deleting it outright. It's not particularly good or useful, and there was a demonstrated lack of interest in making it better after the copyright violations were removed. A case could be made that it violates What Wikipedia is not: Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal, points 6 and 7. Point 6 reads: "Textbooks and annotated texts. Wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference, not a textbook. The purpose of Wikipedia is to present facts, not to teach subject matter." Point 7 says Wikipedia is not a scientific journal or research paper, and the Themes and Analysis section reads like a literary criticism journal article. As I said previously, literary analysis is opinion, albeit published opinion, not facts. Even the extant themes and analysis text sounds like it is trying to teach the reader how to interpret No Country for Old Men. Maybe it should just be deleted? Mmyers1976 (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't apologize for beating that horse! I think you make good points, and share your concern about that article.  I think a few sentences, perhaps a paragraph, of the types of themes which critics have identified in their reviews would be sufficient for covering the contents of the entire Themes and Analysis article, and thus could fit very easily and minimally into this main article.  (And at this point, there is very little in that article other than some uncited claims in the lead [what is all this about Nietzsche?], a redundant synopsis, and a few stray paragraphs in the subsections.)  This would then qualify as a merge, rather than a deletion, which might solve the problem you perceive without having to relist the article for deletion.  But with all that said, I would definitely vote in favor of deletion if those were the terms which we decided.  CCS81 (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I combined merge and delete might be appropriate. We can move what content we like to this article, then delete the Themes page. There's not much use keeping it even as a redirect IMO. Popcornduff (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Technically a merge is different from a deletion, and in fact an alternative to deletion (see WP:DP), so I wanted to get clear on which approach we would take in addressing the problem of the Themes and Analysis article. This will help us mount a better case for a move, whichever route we take, when we do attempt to make it.  I think we're agreed that an effective merge would entail trimming out most of everything in that article, since it's mostly redundant with the main article or uncited and hence potentially WP:OR.  But I do think we should call it a merge for strategic reasons, particularly since a deletion was previously rejected, and also because I think a very brief summary of its points would be acceptable (but not necessary) in a good article.  CCS81 (talk) 21:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I actually nominated this article for deletion on July 24, but it seems that an editor, User:2601:646:101:CB81:9001:A352:A84B:8514, took it upon themselves to delete my nomination, even though that's clearly against policy. I vote to delete it.TheLastAmigo (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, it's been a week since I nominated this and it seems the consensus is to merge and/or delete the other article. Shall I just be bold and do that, or does anyone have any last-minute concerns? Popcornduff (talk) 07:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I was really the only person with any major concerns about your proposal, and now I feel my concerns have been adequately addressed, so I say go for it, merge away! Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur! CCS81 (talk) 16:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I say go for it.TheLastAmigo (talk) 00:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Walt Disney?!?!
This is a very violent film. We might have a troll who came on this page to say that Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures distributed the film. Under what sources does it say that this family oriented film distributor released this modern western thriller? - Theironminer (talk) 01:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC) Theironminer (talk) 01:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

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Chigurh checking his shoes
I believe it would be better to replace the line about Chigurh checking his shoes after leaving Carla-Jean's house with "it is implied Carla-Jean is killed", since, without context, it just seems like a random gesture and is unnecessary, as it only shows up in a few scenes. Thoughts? Orthacanthus (talk) 03:02, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. That would be personal interpretation. Just give the reader the same information the viewer has. Popcornduff (talk) 11:47, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Unpacking the supposed "implications" would qualify as original research.  We need to stick with the facts.  CCS81 (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:OR and the reasons given by Popcornduff. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:04, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

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Comedians?
In Bardem's Oscar acceptance speech, this article follows the cited source in claiming that he dismissed his family and the whole acting profession of Spain as “comedians”. The person who wrote that is guilty of a mistranslation.

The word “comicos” in Spanish includes comedians but also has the wider sense of actors, players and performers. If you look at the Academy's own site, you will see that their official translation of the word is “performers”;

Renfrew Road (talk) 09:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Good catch. I removed the entire quote as it was unnecessary. Popcornduff (talk) 14:52, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Neo-noir?
On what authority is the film given this description? Does it emanate from the directors themselves or from stable academic criticism, rather than from transient journalism, PR floss, or uninformed amateur comment? Does the phrase have any real meaning? Would the article still work without it? Renfrew Road (talk) 08:24, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Neo-noir is pretty well defined, and commonly used, in critical circles and film art studies. Most of top critical reviews linked call it a neo-noir so I'd think it's fair to say it in the lede. Perhaps the sourcing could be better though. Capeo (talk) 19:23, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking further in the article I’m not finding much to support neo-noir in the lede. The genre section doesn’t really touch on it. Later this evening I’ll see if I can find some better sourcing. Capeo (talk) 19:53, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

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Cast
I removed a lot of unnecessary character details from the cast section, information that is already found in the plot. I also changed some names to match the closing credits and added columns. You're free to revert my changes, obviously, but a discussion of the matter is preferable. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 22:22, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Detailed quotes from named critics should not appear in the lead without being in the article body
... not really much else to say on the matter. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 00:05, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Theme: controversy arising from lost, mislaid, or abandoned property
I would like to add to the "Themes and analysis" section: The film depicts the grey areas, consequences, and realism in resolving mislaid property; the resulting feud from the protagonist's finders, keepers approach is a central plot device. Requiring a precise citation for this obvious insertion for pure rule's sake, in this case prevents us from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, and hence justifies the policy: Ignore all rules. This is not a bureaucracy and the rules are not the purpose of the community. That the movie depicts controversy arising from the possession of property is an obvious claim requiring no citation; it is no way exceptional or even controversial.

The law and realism in dealing with found property is an obvious thematic issue. The resulting cat-and-mouse dynamics was a mechanism that continually reiterated this original moral choice throughout the entire movie. According to common law regarding lost, mislaid, and abandoned property, the general principle that: A finder of property acquires no rights in mislaid property, is entitled to possession of lost property against everyone except the true owner, and is entitled to keep abandoned property, also applies specifically to the case of death. But there is the clever uncertainty in if the true owner is still alive, upon which of the two hitmen is their true representative. Then the dilemma of forfeiting it to a government that provided no real protection to an impoverished land. Furthermore, this takes place amid the colliding cultural and legal mores across an international border, and a frontier that is functionally devoid of proper civil recourse. This central moral dilemma was deliberately written into the plot to make this a powerful multi-Academy Award winning movie. On the one hand, many viewers can strongly resonate with a reality that it is futile to try to return lost coins or a hundred dollar bill found in a parking lot to its true owner; but then there is the law. On the other hand, if you find $10 million in cash, you'd expect there has to be an actively desperate owner—and there is also good cause to believe it was stolen. The protagonist could have given the money up to make the chase end, but he stands his ground to his ultimate death. As connecting as it was, this is not a new literary theme, finders, keepers is the subject of the bestseller Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea and is actually the cause of the legendarily senseless Hatfield-McCoy feud. Does a lawless property feud in rural America also resonate because it sounds so familiar? Now what do you do when you fuel a hope that the true owner is deceased?

In this article's thematic section, contending sources for obvious themes is a rabbit hole; literary criticism and rhetorical analysis are heavily philosophical. No matter what, there is no objective answer. Some will say art is up to the individual viewer to decide meaning, in such case authorial intent is irrelevant and is impossible to truly know anyway. What the author believes now, may not be what he or she meant when the work was made. Just look no farther than interpreting your own childhood diary. Under that philosophy, it is a fool's errand to look to the web to prove meaning or obtain citation authority, and yet we already have. There are many approaches to literary theory—and what a critic writes is really a reflection of the philosophy they applied. I'm not a fan of the illusion of a proper reference for rule's sake.

Would anyone like to raise substantial controversy for the merits of this proposed addition while justifying the non-contorvery of this section's prior exiting poorly sourced content? 24.180.38.84 (talk) 03:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTESSAY. Popcornduff (talk) 02:02, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Pithy. Did you de-bloat your reply down to one word with the Hemingway app? My proposed addition is a patently obvious statement and is not an essay: The film depicts uncertainty, consequences, and realism in resolving mislaid property; the resulting feud from the protagonist's finders, keepers approach is a central plot device. An "essay-like" response to an absurd demand—such as for a citation for the fact that most people have five digits on each hand—does not relegate the original obvious statement to essay status. Would it be less objectionable to sidestep any contention with a link to the topics in a "See also section?" That is, allow readers to think further to themselves on the issues? 24.180.38.84 (talk) 03:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you have any sources that you can cite to verify your proposed additions? WP:IGNORE applies in several circumstances, but I don't think it applies here in regards to excluding a reliable citation. – Rhain  ☔ 06:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * As obvious as it may seem, the article for hand nonetheless requires citations for the claim that human hands usually have five fingers. We would also require citations for observations about No Country for Old Men. Popcornduff (talk) 07:03, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * IP, the others are right. Such content needs to be verifiable per WP:V. Only content that has been written about No Country for Old Men outside Wikipedia can be summarized here. It does not matter how much you think this fits or even if the whole Wikipedia community can agree on that. It needs to be elsewhere first to be sourced here. Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 13:35, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Well again, it seems you are misunderstanding rules and their purpose. For some of you, an extremist belief is coming out that violates our policy in spirit and in letter—verbatim. Discretion is everything here. If the whole Wikipedia community could agree on something, there would be power to fix it. After all, it is community agreement that has created our policy, to which we here apply. I quote the rules:
 * Sometimes editors will insist on citations for material simply because they dislike it or prefer some other material, not because the material in any way needs verification. For example, an editor may demand a citation for the fact that most people have five digits on each hand (yes, this really happened). Another may decide that the color of the sky is actually aqua rather than blue, pull out an assortment of verifiable spectrographic analyses and color charts to demonstrate that this position is actually correct, and follow that with a demand that other editors provide equivalent reliable sources for the original statement that the sky is in fact blue. While there are cases where this kind of pedantic insistence is useful and necessary, often it is simply disruptive, and can be countered simply by pointing out that there is no need to verify statements that are patently obvious. If the alternate proposition merits inclusion in the article under other policies and guidelines it should of course be included, but it should in no way be given greater prominence because it is sourced.
 * The policies exist to curtail blatant cases of abuse, as well as setup boundaries to contain disputes; as such there are opposing rules for each side. If there weren't abusive instances of applying a rule, such as to dispute obvious claims, there wouldn't be rules on it. We are not outside of discretion here to make the proposed change. Does anyone have an issue with the proposed changes based upon its merits? 24.180.38.84 (talk) 03:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You need to source your edits. That is not extremist to say so. WP:SECONDARY says, "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." See American Beauty (1999 film), Tender Mercies, and Mulholland Drive (film) as examples of this. Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 16:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I respect the thought you have given, but at the same time, please let's be real here. Popcornduff just stated above that "the article for hand nonetheless requires citations for the claim that human hands usually have five fingers" which is a verbatim example of abusing the rules. It is a little disingenuous to deny that is a very hardline position—even extremist if you will. You could forcefully construe a statement that "the sky is blue" or "humans have five fingers per hand" as evaluative, and yet it would also be an egregious case-proven violation of a different set of policies. As an extremely honest question, how is describing the obvious visual presentation of the movie any different than the visual presentation of the sky—which would be okay? It is not my ambition to make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim. We can stay out of blatant abuse there, while addressing the issue with discretion. I would like to post that the film shows a contention that arouse over the possession of found property. If any source is need, I'd like to cite the film and quote explicit passages of dialogue. If that simply cannot do, I would then like to add a wikilink to lost, mislaid, and abandoned property in a "See also section" for the reader's relevant exploration. May I add the latter while I find a reliable source that must exist somewhere for the former?


 * Erik, I deeply commend what you have done for Wikipedia and your expertise on film. For transparency however, we should disclose that it appears you authored the guidelines for the film project. I presume you are an expert at interpreting them, and may even have a bias in preserving them. Guidelines help projects get polished to a stylistic consistency, but are not policy. As such, they can vary widely between projects and are just that, guidelines. Is this really a guidelines issue? 24.180.38.84 (talk) 03:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Time to let this go, I think. Popcornduff (talk) 00:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Coin toss / "Blame"
I proposed an edit that reverted another change that inserted "blame" terminology into the plot, regarding the coin toss option Chigurh gives to Carla Jean. It was declined within 2 hours, for lack of "consensus", yet the edit to insert "blame" was accepted without any consensus at all.

Furthermore, the wording on this particular section was vigorously discussed previously, and the consensus was to avoid any interpretive bias, which this "blame" terminology reintroduces. 73.159.229.5 (talk) 11:30, 19 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I invited the editor that undid my change to this talk page. He declined. Given it has pertinence here, I'm copying over what transpired:

You hastily removed my pending edit on No Country for Old Men in two hours. You are invited to join the talk section I created to discuss this removal. 73.159.229.5 (talk) 07:50, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

@73.159.229.5: I haven't watched the film and I haven't either been involved in any of the discussions on its talk page. I reverted your edit only because there is a hidden message in the section implying that one may have to be careful of what one adds. I reverted your edit only because I couldn't find a consensus on the talk page. Given that you have started a discussion already, I hope other editors will respond there but given my lack of knowledge I opt out of it. --Tamravidhir (talk) 07:57, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

The hidden message is to avoid ADDING interpretation, in particular whether the character was killed or not. What I did was to REMOVE interpretation that was added after a later date. Since you have not watched the film, and have taken no interest in digging into the details of this edit, and my initial edit was placed into a "pending" queue anyways, I request that you undo your removal of my edit. If you do not, I will, and if you insist on removing things hastily that you have no desire to look into or discussing on the talk page, I will file a dispute resolution and look for administrative sanction. Hasty editors that undo the work of others is discouraging to part-time contributors. 73.159.229.5 (talk) 11:35, 20 September 2019 (UTC) 73.159.229.5 (talk) 16:45, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thematic links to Greek Tragedy
Perhaps an editor of this article may find the following of interest.

Karen Rosenbecker in “American Furies: Justice in Cormac McCarthy’s No Country for Old Men and the Oresteia Trilogy" details a number of thematic correspondences between the Oresteia of Aeschylus and the novel No Country for Old Men.

With respect to the film, I submit the following: Anton Chigurh’s continual mindfulness for signs of blood on his footwear recalls Aeschylus’ Agamemnon, when Cassandra envisions a “house of many horrors. . . slaughterhouse of men—its floor darkening the foot!” (ἀνδροσφαγεῖον καὶ πεδορραντήριον, l. 1092) Kakostratos (talk) 20:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Inaccuracy?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. "Chigurh hides behind the door after retrieving the money. " Hadn't the Mexicans taken the money when they killed Moss? 50.72.32.218 (talk) 00:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 9 April 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. Clear, solid consensus with reasonable analysis. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 16:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

– The film is the clear primary topic, both in terms of page views (|No_Country_for_Old_Men consistently 6–8 times as many over 5 years despite not being located at the base name) and long-term significance (the film is considered one of the Coen brothers' best as well as one of the best of the decade, while the novel received mixed reviews compared to McCarthy's other work). Note that Disambiguation states Being the original source of the name is also not determinative. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 12:31, 9 April 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * No Country for Old Men (film) → No Country for Old Men
 * No Country for Old Men → No Country for Old Men (novel)
 * Support. The film is the primary topic here. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:22, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Per nom. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:17, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination, Rreagan007 and ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ. Similar to other instances such as Talk:Forrest Gump (disambiguation), Talk:One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (novel)/Archive 1 or Talk:Gone with the Wind (novel) in which books upon which Best Picture Oscar winners were based had initially been primary over the film versions. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Support the film is the p/t.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 08:44, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. BilledMammal (talk) 08:56, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:27, 12 April 2022 (UTC)