Talk:Noble Group

Name origin
So did they really name themselves after Clavell's novel Noble House? jni (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

request edit
My name is Timothy Ferdinand and I am a consultant who works on contract for Noble Group Holdings Limited assisting with public relations and investor relations. I have included citations for all changes suggested below, in the form of notes in square brackets in the text and have then listed the sources at the end of this entry. I apologise if this is the wrong way to provide citations, but I have never used this function before.

Please find below some suggested updates to Noble Group Limited’s Wikipedia page following the company’s successful restructuring on 20 December 2018. As you will see below, following the restructuring, there is now a new company established under the name Noble Group Holdings Limited (“NGHL”) and Noble Group Limited has commenced a liquidation process. Would your recommendation be to establish a new page for the new entity, and link back to this page?

There are a few points on the current page which I would also suggest amending, as they are no longer factually accurate.

Bond ratings:

"As of March 2018, Noble’s bonds are rated D by Moody’s and S&P after the company defaulted on its bond interest and principal payment."

I would suggest that this line is deleted as following the completion of the restructuring and commencement of the liquidation of Noble Group Limited, it is no longer relevant. The bonds of NGHL are not rated by any ratings agency.

2018:

"Noble Group defaulted on both its bond interest and bond principal payment. One of its main shareholders (Goldilocks) is suing the company and its managers for financial misrepresentation"

I would suggest removing the second part of the existing entry for 2018, as this is no longer factually accurate. Goldilocks and Noble Group agreed to terminate all legal proceedings against each other in June 2018. [1]

In addition, I would suggest adding the following to make this section accurate and up to date:

Following the completion of the restructuring on 20 December 2018, Noble Group Limited, which no longer has any material business or assets commenced a liquidation process on 8 February 2019. Noble Group Holdings Limited, having acquired substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited is not in default in respect of any of its debts, following the restructuring, and now operates the business with new committed trade and hedging facilities of $800 million. [2][3][4]

Overview:

I would also suggest that the overview is updated to reflect the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018. Please see suggested wording below:

Noble Group Limited was a commodities trader across a range of industrial and energy products. The company was incorporated in Bermuda and was listed in Singapore. Noble is in financial distress after defaulting on its financial obligations. Noble Group Holdings Limited, which is incorporated in Bermuda, took over substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited on 20 December 2018 following the restructuring of Noble Group Limited pursuant to two schemes of arrangement (approved in late 2018 by the courts in London, UK and Hamilton, Bermuda, respectively). The shares of Noble Group Holdings Limited are unlisted. Noble Group Holdings Limited has a fully restructured balance sheet and committed trade and hedging facilities of $800 million. The shares of Noble Group Limited ceased trading on the Singapore Exchange on 16 November 2018 and Noble Group Limited no longer has any material assets. [5][6]

Business Activities

Following the restructuring, Noble Group Holdings Limited carries on a business as an independent energy products and industrial raw materials supply chain manager. It taps into a regional network in Asia and around the world to facilitate the marketing, processing, financing and transportation of essential raw materials between producers and users, situated predominantly in Asia. [7]

Please also find the updated information for the fact box, following the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018.

Native name

來寶集團

Type

Private

Traded as

n/a

Industry

Conglomerate

Founded

1986; 33 years ago

Founder

Richard Samuel Elman

Headquarters

Hong Kong

Key people

William James Randall (CEO), Paul Brough (Chairman), Paul Jackaman (CFO)

Products

Energy, Metals, Minerals, Logistics

Revenue

n/a

Number of employees

n/a

Website

www.thisisnoble.com

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/b8a27878-7423-11e8-aa31-31da4279a601 [2] https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-noble-group-debt/noble-group-completes-3-5-billion-restructuring-to-emerge-as-smaller-unlisted-firm-idUKKCN1OJ082 [3] https://www.straitstimes.com/business/companies-markets/noble-group-sets-aside-us800m-in-new-money-debt-for-new-noble-as [4] http://www.thisisnoble.com/images/documents/announcements/red/red_announcement_20181220.pdf [5] https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-noble-group-debt/noble-group-completes-3-5-billion-restructuring-to-emerge-as-smaller-unlisted-firm-idUKKCN1OJ082 [6] http://www.thisisnoble.com/images/documents/announcements/red/red_announcement_20181220.pdf [7] https://www.bloomberg.com/profiles/companies/3494856Z:LN-noble-group-holdings-ltd

Please would other users review my suggestions and would the editors please implement necessary and appropriate changes as they deem fit.

Thank you

Timothy Ferdinand (talk) 19:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Reply 2-MAY-2019
Your edit request could not be reviewed because the request was (A) not formatted correctly and (B) contained text which was insufficiently paraphrased from the source material.
 * With regards to (A) formatting:
 * 1) The citation style used in the edit request does not match the style used by a majority of sources in the existing article. (See WP:CITEVAR.)
 * With regards to (B) insufficiently paraphrased text:
 * 1) Submitted text ought to be written using an editor's own words and phrasing. (See WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE.)

In the collapsed section below titled Request edit examples, I have illustrated two which identify the issues in formatting. The first example shows how the formatting of the edit request was submitted; the second shows how requests should be formatted in the future.

URL STYLE 1. 2. 3.
 * The Sun's diameter is 864,337.3 miles,[1] while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles.[2] The Sun's temperature is 5,778 degrees Kelvin.[3]

In the example above there are three URL's provided with the claim statements, but these URL's have not been placed using Citation Style 1, which is the style predominantly used by the Noble Group article. Any requested edit of yours which may be implemented will need to have its associated references formatted in the style already used by the majority of sources in the article – in this case, CS1. Using CS1, the WikiFormatted text should resemble the following:

CS1 Which displays as:
 * The Sun's diameter is 864,337.3 miles, while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles. The Sun's temperature is 5,778 degrees Kelvin.
 * The Sun's diameter is 864,337.3 miles,[1] while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles.[2] The Sun's temperature is 5,778 degrees Kelvin.[3]

References

^ Sjöblad, Tristan. . Academic Press, 2018, p. 1. ^ Harinath, Paramjit. , Science, 51(78):46. ^ Uemura, Shū. . Academic Press, 2018, p. 2. 

In the example above the references have been formatted according to Citation Style 1, which shows the author, the source's name, date, etc. Although the Noble Group article uses both CS1 and plain ref tag references, the majority of these are in CS1 — thus, anything added should also be CS1. As Wikipedia is a volunteer project, edit requests such yours are generally expected to have this formatting done before the request is submitted for review.

Kindly rewrite your edit request so that it aligns more with the second example shown in the collapsed section above, taking care to write the text using your own words and phrasing. Feel free to re-submit that edit request at your earliest convenience. If you have any questions about this formatting please don't hesitate to ask myself or another editor. Regards, Spintendo  21:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Request edit
Further to the helpful suggestions from the editor (for which thank you), please find below my amended suggested updates to Noble Group Limited’s Wikipedia page following the company’s successful restructuring on 20 December 2018. As you will see below, following the restructuring, there is now a new company established under the name Noble Group Holdings Limited (“NGHL”) and Noble Group Limited has commenced a liquidation process. Would your recommendation be to establish a new page for the new entity, and link back to this page?

SUGGESTED DELETIONS

There are a few points on the current page which I would also suggest amending, as they are no longer factually accurate.

I would suggest deleting the section headed "Bond ratings", which states "As of March 2018, Noble’s bonds are rated D by Moody’s and S&P after the company defaulted on its bond interest and principal payment." Following the completion of the restructuring and commencement of the liquidation of Noble Group Limited, the section is no longer relevant. The bonds of NGHL are not rated by any ratings agency. To back up this contention please see the provisional liquidator's website at www.nglliquidation.com, by way of evidence that Noble Group Limited is indeed in liquidation as justification for the suggested deletion.

Under the heading "2018" I would suggest you delete the following sentence:

"One of its main shareholders (Goldilocks) is suing the company and its managers for financial misrepresentation"

This is no longer a factually accurate statement. Goldilocks and Noble Group agreed to terminate all legal proceedings against each other in June 2018. Again to demonstrate that this is true, please see the report in the Financial Times newspaper which can be viewed at www.ft.com/content/b8a27878-7423-11e8-aa31-31da4279a601

SUGGESTED ADDITIONS

In addition to deleting these two sentences/sections referred to above, I would suggest adding the following wording to the section under the heading "2018" to make the section accurate and up to date:

"Noble Group Limited completed its restructuring on 20 December 2018 and at that time substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited were transferred to Noble Group Holdings Limited under the terms of the restructuring. Following the restructuring, Noble Group Holdings Limited is not in default in respect of any of its debts and now operates the business with new committed trade and hedging finance facilities of $800 million.   "

I would also suggest adding a new subheading and text to cover events in 2019 as follows:

"2019

As Noble Group Limited no longer holds any material business or assets following the restructuring, it commenced a liquidation process on 8 February 2019.

On 30 April 2019 Noble Group Holdings Limited announced its results for the first quarter of 2019, reporting positive operating income of $87 million and net profit of $30 million. "

UPDATING THE FIRST SECTION

I would also suggest that the overview at the beginning of the article needs to be updated to reflect the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018. Please see suggested wording below to replace the current sentence starting "Noble Group Limited (SGX:CGP)":

"Noble Group Limited was a commodities trader across a range of industrial and energy products. The company was incorporated in Bermuda and was listed in Singapore. Noble Group Limited got into financial distress after defaulting on its financial obligations and undertook a restructuring in the second half of 2018. The restructuring of Noble Group Limited was undertaken pursuant to two schemes of arrangement (approved in late 2018 by the courts in London, UK and Hamilton, Bermuda, respectively). As part of the restructuring, the shares of Noble Group Limited ceased trading on the Singapore Exchange on 16 November 2018.

Upon the completion of the restructuring on 20 December 2018, Noble Group Holdings Limited, which is incorporated in Bermuda, took over substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited. The shares of Noble Group Holdings Limited are unlisted. Noble Group Holdings Limited carries on a business as an independent energy products and industrial raw materials supply chain manager. It taps into a regional network in Asia and around the world to facilitate the marketing, processing, financing and transportation of essential raw materials between producers and users, situated predominantly in Asia. "

Please also find below the updated information for the fact box, following the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018.

Native name

來寶集團

Type

Private

Traded as

n/a

Industry

Conglomerate

Founded

1986; 33 years ago

Founder

Richard Samuel Elman

Headquarters

Hong Kong

Key people

William James Randall (CEO), Paul Brough (Chairman), Paul Jackaman (CFO)

Products

Energy, Metals, Minerals, Logistics

Revenue

n/a

Number of employees

n/a

Website

www.thisisnoble.com

Timothy Ferdinand (talk) 07:56, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Reply 21-MAY-2019

 * Thank you for reformatting the references in your request. That was most helpful.
 * Unfortunately, your edit request still cannot be reviewed because it is unclear which references are connected to which claim statements in the text of your proposal. When proposing edit requests, it is important to highlight in the text, through the use of ref tags, which specific sources are doing the referencing for each claim. The point of these inline ref tags is to allow the reviewer and readers to check that the material is sourced; that point will be lost if those ref tags are not clearly placed.
 * In the section of text below marked Examples, I've shown two: the first shows how your edit request was submitted, and the second shows how requests should be submitted in the future.

 The Sun's diameter is 864,337.3 miles, while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles. The Sun's temperature is 5,778 degrees Kelvin.

References

1. Sjöblad, Tristan. The Sun. Academic Press, 2018, p. 1. 2. Harinath, Paramjit. "Size of the Moon", Science, 51(78):46. 3. Uemura, Shū. The Sun's Heat. Academic Press, 2018, p. 2.

In the first example above there are three references provided, but all three of the ref tags for those references have been bundled at the end of the paragraph. Your edit request similarly places all of the ref tags at the end of the paragraphs which you wish to add to the article. But this is an incorrect way of displaying the references. Unless all three of the sources in the example above collectively verify all of the claims in these paragraphs, each individual claim will need to be referenced by its own individual source, as shown in the next example below:

 The Sun's diameter is 864,337.3 miles,[1] while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles.[2] The Sun's temperature is 5,778 degrees Kelvin.<sup id="nbFoot03a" class="reference">[3]

References

<li id="noteFoot01a" >^ Sjöblad, Tristan. The Sun. Academic Press, 2018, p. 1.</li> <li id="noteFoot02a" >^ Harinath, Paramjit. "Size of the Moon", Science, 51(78):46.</li> <li id="noteFoot03a" >^ Uemura, Shū. The Sun's Heat. Academic Press, 2018, p. 2.</li> </ol>

Regards, Spintendo  07:51, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * In the second example above, the links between the provided references and their claim statement ref tags are perfectly clear. Each reference clearly verifies its own claim in the paragraph.
 * Kindly reformulate your edit request so that it aligns more with the second example above, and feel free to re-submit that edit request at your earliest convenience.
 * With regards to your question about the article's name, it would seem that the change from Noble Group to Noble Group Holdings Limited is a variation which can be simply explained in the lead section and need not involve changing the name of the article.

request edit
Thanks again for your extremely helpful advice. So, I have tried to follow your instructions and hope that the version below is acceptable.

SUGGESTED DELETIONS

There are a few points on the current page which I would also suggest amending, as they are no longer factually accurate.

I would suggest deleting the section headed "Bond ratings", which states "As of March 2018, Noble’s bonds are rated D by Moody’s and S&P after the company defaulted on its bond interest and principal payment." Following the completion of the restructuring and commencement of the liquidation of Noble Group Limited, the section is no longer relevant. The bonds of NGHL are not rated by any ratings agency. To back up this contention please see the provisional liquidator's website at www.nglliquidation.com, by way of evidence that Noble Group Limited is indeed in liquidation as justification for the suggested deletion.

Under the heading "2018" I would suggest you delete the following sentence:

"One of its main shareholders (Goldilocks) is suing the company and its managers for financial misrepresentation"

This is no longer a factually accurate statement. Goldilocks and Noble Group agreed to terminate all legal proceedings against each other in June 2018. Again to demonstrate that this is true, please see the report in the Financial Times newspaper which can be viewed at www.ft.com/content/b8a27878-7423-11e8-aa31-31da4279a601

SUGGESTED ADDITIONS

In addition to deleting these two sentences/sections referred to above, I would suggest adding the following wording to the section under the heading "2018" to make the section accurate and up to date:

"Noble Group Limited completed its restructuring on 20 December 2018 and at that time substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited were transferred to Noble Group Holdings Limited under the terms of the restructuring . Following the restructuring, Noble Group Holdings Limited is not in default in respect of any of its debts and now operates the business with new committed trade and hedging finance facilities of $800 million ."

I would also suggest adding a new subheading and text to cover events in 2019 as follows:

"2019

As Noble Group Limited no longer holds any material business or assets following the restructuring, it commenced a liquidation process on 8 February 2019.

On 30 April 2019 Noble Group Holdings Limited announced its results for the first quarter of 2019, reporting positive operating income of $87 million and net profit of $30 million ."

UPDATING THE FIRST SECTION

I would also suggest that the overview at the beginning of the article needs to be updated to reflect the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018. Please see suggested wording below to replace the current sentence starting "Noble Group Limited (SGX:CGP)":

"Noble Group Limited was a commodities trader across a range of industrial and energy products. The company was incorporated in Bermuda and was listed in Singapore . Noble Group Limited got into financial distress after defaulting on its financial obligations and undertook a restructuring in the second half of 2018 . The restructuring of Noble Group Limited was undertaken pursuant to two schemes of arrangement (approved in late 2018 by the courts in London, UK and Hamilton, Bermuda, respectively). As part of the restructuring, the shares of Noble Group Limited ceased trading on the Singapore Exchange on 16 November 2018 &.

Upon the completion of the restructuring on 20 December 2018, Noble Group Holdings Limited, which is incorporated in Bermuda, took over substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited. The shares of Noble Group Holdings Limited are unlisted. Noble Group Holdings Limited carries on a business as an independent energy products and industrial raw materials supply chain manager. It taps into a regional network in Asia and around the world to facilitate the marketing, processing, financing and transportation of essential raw materials between producers and users, situated predominantly in Asia ."

Please also find below the updated information for the fact box, following the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018.

Native name

來寶集團

Type

Private

Traded as

n/a

Industry

Conglomerate

Founded

1986; 33 years ago

Founder

Richard Samuel Elman

Headquarters

Hong Kong

Key people

William James Randall (CEO), Paul Brough (Chairman), Paul Jackaman (CFO)

Products

Energy, Metals, Minerals, Logistics

Revenue

n/a

Number of employees

n/a

Website

www.thisisnoble.com

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothy Ferdinand (talk • contribs) 09:08, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The pdf's do not have page numbers affixed to them, and ref note #8 (which is listed twice) references an ampersand. Please have a second look at the references used in your request, with an eye towards replacing those which originate from the subject company (5 out of 10) in favor of WP:SECONDARY sources. The infobox information is also missing references. Also remember to  Spintendo  09:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Request edit
Again, many thanks to spintendo for the helpful advice, hopefully this time the suggested edits will be acceptable. I understand that you prefer "secondary sources" for all the non-infobox references, but for the profit in 1Q2019 I am unable to find any third party sources as it was only reported on Bloomberg screens not the Bloomberg website, so there is no third party source accessable via the internet. In any event, it seems to that in the case of a company's financial results, the company itself would be a better source. As a consequence, I have been forced to leave that reference unchanged, but have done my best to replace the other company source references with third party references.

I would suggest deleting the section headed "Bond ratings", which states "As of March 2018, Noble’s bonds are rated D by Moody’s and S&P after the company defaulted on its bond interest and principal payment." Following the completion of the restructuring and commencement of the liquidation of Noble Group Limited, the section is no longer relevant. The bonds of Noble Group Holdings Limited (the new company which took over the business and assets of Noble Group Limited under the terms of the restructuring) are not rated by any ratings agency. To back up this contention please see the provisional liquidator's website at www.nglliquidation.com, by way of evidence that Noble Group Limited is indeed in liquidation as justification for the suggested deletion.

Under the heading "2018" I would suggest you delete the following sentence:

"One of its main shareholders (Goldilocks) is suing the company and its managers for financial misrepresentation"

This is no longer a factually accurate statement. Goldilocks and Noble Group agreed to terminate all legal proceedings against each other in June 2018. Again to demonstrate that this is true, please see the report in the Financial Times newspaper which can be viewed at www.ft.com/content/b8a27878-7423-11e8-aa31-31da4279a601

SUGGESTED ADDITIONS

In addition to deleting these two sentences/sections referred to above, I would suggest adding the following wording to the section under the heading "2018" to make the section accurate and up to date:

"Noble Group Limited completed its restructuring on 20 December 2018 and at that time substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited were transferred to Noble Group Holdings Limited under the terms of the restructuring . Following the restructuring, Noble Group Holdings Limited is not in default in respect of any of its debts and now operates the business with new committed trade and hedging finance facilities of $800 million ."

I would also suggest adding a new subheading and text to cover events in 2019 as follows:

"2019

As Noble Group Limited no longer holds any material business or assets following the restructuring, it commenced a liquidation process on 8 February 2019.

On 30 April 2019 Noble Group Holdings Limited announced its results for the first quarter of 2019, reporting positive operating income of $87 million and net profit of $30 million ."

UPDATING THE FIRST SECTION

I would also suggest that the overview at the beginning of the article needs to be updated to reflect the completion of the restructuring process in December 2018. Please see suggested wording below to replace the current sentence starting "Noble Group Limited (SGX:CGP)":

"Noble Group Limited was a commodities trader across a range of industrial and energy products. The company was incorporated in Bermuda and was listed in Singapore . Noble Group Limited got into financial distress after defaulting on its financial obligations and undertook a restructuring in the second half of 2018 . The restructuring of Noble Group Limited was undertaken pursuant to two schemes of arrangement (approved in late 2018 by the courts in London, UK and Hamilton, Bermuda, respectively). As part of the restructuring, the shares of Noble Group Limited ceased trading on the Singapore Exchange on 16 November 2018.

Upon the completion of the restructuring on 20 December 2018, Noble Group Holdings Limited, which is incorporated in Bermuda, took over substantially all of the business and assets of Noble Group Limited. The shares of Noble Group Holdings Limited are unlisted. Noble Group Holdings Limited carries on a business as an independent energy products and industrial raw materials supply chain manager. It taps into a regional network in Asia and around the world to facilitate the marketing, processing, financing and transportation of essential raw materials between producers and users, situated predominantly in Asia ."

INFOBOX

I see that someone else has already made updates to the infobox, the only item to delete (as its out of date and refers to Noble Group Limited which is in Liquidation) - see above - is the "Revenue". Please replace "US$46 million" with "N/A" or delete this line completely because Noble Group Holdings Limited has not yet published full year revenue having only taken over the business on 20 December 2018.

Thanks again

Timothy Ferdinand (talk) 04:58, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Reply 28-MAY-2019
Some points about this request: Regards, Spintendo  09:02, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) While I understand the desire to have only updated information in the article, it's actually better that older items be listed along with information which updates them. That is because items are not deleted in Wikipedia when they are "no longer relevant". Newer events always occur in the timespans of a company's history. These never events do not replace older events, rather, they are added to the history. To that end, the fact that bonds and assets are "no longer rated" does not negate the existence of earlier bonds and assets which were previously rated. To improve your request, I would suggest that information be worded to cover both state of affairs: when the bonds were rated "D", and when the assets were no longer rated.
 * 2) The same can be said for the Goldilocks lawsuit. The existing claim should be replaced by a newer claim which covers what the lawsuit was, that it was eventually dropped, and for what reason.
 * 3) The statement "Following the restructuring, Noble Group Holdings Limited is not in default in respect of any of its debts and now operates the business with new committed trade and hedging finance facilities of $800 million" is written using Wikipedia's voice, when it should be attributed inline to whichever sources are making those claims.
 * 4) The claim "As Noble Group Limited no longer holds any material business or assets following the restructuring, it commenced a liquidation process on 8 February 2019" might be viewed as a non-sequitur by those readers uninformed on the topics of "material business" or "liquidation" who may wonder what it is, about no longer holding business or assets after restucturing, which makes it a prerequisite for liquidation processes to take place.
 * 5) Finally, the phrasing Noble Group Holdings Limited carries on [sic] a business.... and It taps into a regional network in Asia and around the world to facilitate the marketing, processing, ..... is confusing in the case of the former and overtly promotional in tone, in the case of the latter. These should be reworded or dropped altogether.

Confusion between Noble Group Ltd and Noble Group Holdings Ltd
These are not the same company. One is being liquidated. The other one is the result of a restructuring process. Name, shareholders, activities, etc are different. I suspect the confusion is driven by PR to whitewash what happened. A new page should be created on Noble Group Holdings Ltd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.63.146.138 (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME applies. Regardless of which entity is being reported in the past or currently, the news have been reporting them as Noble Group. I have updated the article to reflect this change, and it should address your concern. robertsky (talk) 15:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

was former CEO Yusuf Alireza fired or did he resign?
Initial reports from Noble Group were that Yusuf Alireza resigned for "family reasons". Then in a lawsuit launched by Alireza himself against Noble Group Ltd's founder, Richard Elman, the writ claims he had been fired. From the Financial Times that quotes the writ source: "The former chief executive claims that later the same month Mr Elman gave him oral notice of termination on the “apparent basis that there were irreconcilable differences between [the two men] as to how the company should be run in future”. If the writ written by Yusuf Alireza's lawyers recognises he was terminated, the matter is closed. Yusuf Alireza was indeed terminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archb56 (talk • contribs)
 * I am unable to verify the content which is behind a paywall. Another news sources? robertsky (talk) 16:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Clean the FT cookies, google the title of the piece, and enter the FT from Google. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archb56 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * hrmph. that's indeed inconvenient. I have updated the article. robertsky (talk) 15:54, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@ 118.200.149.105 (talk) 06:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)