Talk:Noblesse in Scotland

Stub classification
I have classified this article as a stub due to its level of detail and added fact. I might leave a note at Wikiproject Scotland and the Scottish Wikipedians page. Capitalistroadster 00:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

gentleman & esquire
While i'm not 100% confident about the system in Scotland, isn't a gentlemen who is granted arms the same thing as an esquire? In that sense the lowest rank of the noblesse is always esquire rather than gentleman. On the continent if you are noble (lacking a higher dignity) that equals esquire, and i'm pretty sure Scotland follows the same system. It seems strange to have the status of a noble and yet rank below an esquire since an esquire is an armigerous gentleman. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 08:40, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * No, this is a confusion, over both the position in Scotland and the position of a foreign noble as equalling esquire. A recent court case confirms that the rank of a person bearing arms is in the dignity of a gentleman. That gentleman and esquire are different ranks can be seen in Innes of Learner's (1956) Scots Heraldry, p.29, where the helmets for different ranks of armigers are described, from gentlemen to royalty. This book is cited in that court case and its writer is said to be authoritative in the same. So, no not every Scottish armiger is an esquire.  It would be necessary to inspect the type of helmet on their grant or matriculation of arms to infer their rank. As to continental nobles having the rank of esquire, this is another minor confusion; one that is down to the conflation of nobility with the peerage in the English language.  Because in common speech peers are confused with nobles, every time the word nobleman appears it is presumed to refer to the peerage.  Some writers in English stating that continental nobles are recognised in the rank of esquire in the UK are saying this using nobles in the sense of peers.  The UK Crown does not recognise foreign noble titles, but accords the holders of the same the rank of esquire.  This does not mean that foreign nobles are not recognised socially; it is only offially that they are recognised in the rank of esquire.  So there are some foreign nobles in the non-peerage sense, i.e. the untitled nobility, who may be of the rank of gentleman rather than esquire. Editor8888 (talk) 10:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank-you for your clarification of the Scottish situation 121.73.7.84 (talk) 11:00, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * p.s. you might want to check the article. I've made edits to clarify the areas I am knowledgeable about, however there is other information which may or may not be correct. I'm not informed enough in those details to know for sure. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 11:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * This now reads correctly to me. Thanks for your hard work on the edits.  It flows much better now. Editor8888 (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that the Lord Lyon no longer includes the so called nobility clause in new grants of arms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.98.83.218 (talk) 14:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Title
I think the title should read Noblesse (Scotland) rather than just Noblesse. The noblesse exist throughout Europe, not just in Scotland. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 08:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

plagiarism
The original version of the article appears to have been plagiarised from this site (or some other unreliable source): http://factforge.net/resource/dbpedia/Noblesse. This may be why the article is full of errors and misconceptions. The term noblesse refers more specifically to the untitled nobility rather than to the titled nobility.

I have removed this reference from the article because it does not reference the claim it follows. The claim is lifted from the plagiarised site and the Burke's homepage link has been randomly added to create the perception of legitimacy

I have limited the article's discussion to specifically Scottish dignities. Baronets are an English invention. Baronets and knights may be able to apply for noble status in Scotland but baronets and knights are not noble just because they're baronets and knights. In the British system these dignities in and of themselves do not connote nobility. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 10:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * With Wikipedia it is hard to tell which is the first source; many external website's copy Wikipedia's content, so this may be the other way round.

Note, though, that while baronets and knights are not noble per se, unless also amigerous in Scotland, they do exist in the country, so should really be mentioned. There are the baronets of Nova Scotia, in Canada, and Ulster, in Northern Irelands, some of whom were Scottish. Editor8888 (talk) 12:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it's best to avoid mentioning knights and baronets as this may reinforce the common misconception that these are specifically noble ranks. Nobility in Scotland comes from being armigerous - which is the point the article needs to emphasize - so it's best not to confuse the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.7.84 (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 01:23, 30 April 2016 (UTC)