Talk:Nodar Kumaritashvili/Archive 1

References from the IOC website
I was hoping to find good references on prior deaths on the IOC's website. If you take a look at the official page of the 1964 games there's not a single mention of Milne or Skrzypeski and in fact the IOC's summary includes
 * For the first time, a bobsleigh track that used artificial ice was built for the Games and as a result the bobsleigh conditions became more controllable and the competition lost much of its danger.

Classy. Pichpich (talk) 22:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Life and career.Section Father? head of the Georgian Luge Federation??
"His father, Selix, is the head of the Georgian Luge Federation.[5]" The reference given makes no mention of this in any way. Vandalism or has a reference gone missing? --220.101.28.25 (talk) 09:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry my error, must hav clicked weong reference, though somone from Portugal changed the name to Felix! --220.101.28.25 (talk) 09:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Is the name change correct? Or is this another act of vandalism? You should consider registering an account as it seems you make frequent contributions. saumaun (talk) 09:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

---Reuters lists the father's name as Selix, and lists him as "the head of the Georgian Luge Federation". HuntClubJoe (talk) 11:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Immediacy of Death
Based on the footage, it would appear that his head and neck hit the metal beam at 88mph. In all likelihood, he died instantly, which is supported by the fact that he required immediate traumatic CPR, which is almost never successful. Although speculative, medically this is sound and would like to know what people think about this going into the article. This is my medical opinion as a physician/paramedic.GG The Fly (talk) 02:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that's probably what happened -- The back of the head isn't designed to hit hard objects at that speed. However, we have to wait until we have a reliable source to cite before adding it. -- Flyguy649 talk 03:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed as well. The fact that his brain decelerated at such an incredible rate also means his life would have been severely shortened had he survived the initial crash. What a shame that he died so close to reaching his goal. saumaun (talk) 08:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Please wait till a reliable third-party source confirms the exact cause of death before inserting it into the article. Thanks. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoops, didn't see that Flyguy649 already mentioned this point. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 09:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course. No edits until there's a reference to support it! saumaun (talk) 08:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! GG The Fly (talk) 14:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Life and career
Perhaps interested editors can do a bit of research and fill out the "Life and career" section. It looks pretty thin at the moment. Presumably there will soon be obituaries published in newspapers that can be consulted. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:03, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing
Thanks to whoever changed that "The Death of Nodar Kumaritashvili happened in 2010. He was a non-notable person who gained notability upon his death." part. That was just a weird edit. Also thanks for locking the page. - OneInfo —Preceding unsigned comment added by OneInfo (talk • contribs) 23:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There's was just too much uninformed/abusive editing going on. If there are any factual errors, new developments, or other edits that need to be made while the page is protected, use Template:editprotected to request them here and an administrator will make the changes. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

non-notable
He is non-notable except for his death. The article should be renamed "Death of Nodar Kumarshvili". Revenge No (talk) 22:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * He is/was/would have been an Olympic athlete. Any athlete who is good enough to qualify for the Olympics, is notable enough for an article, imo. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 23:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * See WP:ATHLETE. Specifically no. 2: People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships. Pretty clear IMHO. Jarkeld (talk) 23:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, technically, did he compete? He died in training. Tarc (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * He was notable as a luger before becoming an Olympic athlete. Kolindigo (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * He qualified via the Luge World Cup, considered to be the highest level of competition of that particular sport. Jarkeld (talk) 23:31, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * He was notable as an athlete prior to his death, demonstrated by his selection for membership of an Olympic team based on his previous elite sporting achievements. See WP:ATHLETE. -- The Anome (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting that the article existed before his accident. Andjam (talk) 11:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible reference for birth date/place
The NBC 2010 Olympic site has a profile page for him here which gives the date and place of birth. There is a "citation needed" after this information in our article (first line of "Life and career" section), if this source is considered reliable enough for this information, could someone add this in. Thanks.163.1.147.64 (talk) 08:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have added the ref to the sentence. Many thanks for bringing this here - Dumelow (talk) 13:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for making the edit :) 163.1.147.64 (talk) 13:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Protection template message
WP:BLP shouldn't apply. Kolindigo (talk) 00:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BLP rules are normally extended to cover the very recently deceased. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, BLP does not cover deceased persons. "WP:BLP" makes this clear. Nonetheless, material in such biographical articles is subject to all other Wikipedia policies, including policies requiring information to be properly sourced to reliable, published third-party references. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 14:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The policy itself doesn't apply, but the stricter rules about sourcing etc are normally extended (as a courtesy) to cover the recently deceased - mainly to stop the article being overrun by a flood of rumours. However, I think we are actually saying the same thing here - anything in the article should be sourced properly. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Glad we agree that rumour has no place in the article and that all information must be properly sourced. I'm not being difficult :-), but is this "courtesy extension" mentioned in any policy? As far as I am aware, this matter has been discussed several times over at BLP and the consensus has always been that biographical articles about deceased persons are covered by other policies but not by BLP. The justification for BLP (that contentious material should not remain in articles about living persons as it may be defamatory) doesn't apply to deceased persons. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 09:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

video(s) of death
I have no objection to a video showing his death, although more than one is excessive, but I think a template should be placed beside the link to warn viewers of graphic content, instead of just typing out a warning, we should create a universal template for such videos. NorthernThunder (talk) 07:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Please note that only official news websites may be linked to. External links to media-hosting websites where videos have been uploaded in breach of copyright must be avoided (and deleted on sight), to comply with WP:EL. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 08:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC) (updated 15:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC))

Death
Is this report confirmed? This is the only place I am seeing it.

No, it's not confirmed. We're waiting for official word. --  Denelson83  20:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

It has now been confirmed. http://yle.fi/urheilu/suurtapahtumat/vancouver_2010/lajit/kelkkailu/2010/02/vancouverin_kelkkailuturma_vaati_urheilijan_hengen_1441965.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.97.40 (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There are conflicting reports and no official word. The decent thing to do is to wait for that. Pichpich (talk) 20:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with Pichpich. The death has been confirmed, full stop.  The Toxic Mite  't 20:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * True, it has now been officially confirmed. But none of the current references shows that. Pichpich (talk) 20:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This is being reported in numerous reliable news sources, unfortunately it is true that he has died. Further edit warring will result in full protection of the page. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relax Beeblebrox. The edit warring died three hours ago when the death was indeed reported by IOC officials... Pichpich (talk) 23:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm perfectly calm, and I did decline the protection request, but there is often vandalism or other disruptive editing on the pages of recently deceased persons, and I want to make it clear that it will not be tolerated. Not directed at anyone in particular, just a general notice. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:30, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Yesterday I added one word to the wiki which I felt was a key word and which has since been deleted. Now that the page is protected I cannot add this important word. This was in the "Accident and Death" section and currently reads "...striking a steel support beam". In my opinion, the sentence should read "...striking an unprotected steel support beam". This is key to the entry, because had there been adequate protection there may not have been any need to write this wiki! Anyone with editing rights...please add back the word 'unprotected'!Bdoberst (talk) 21:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we all appreciate the sentiment, but we must to stick to known facts. Adding the word unprotected casts an aspersion on the designers of the luge track, the organizers of the competition, and possibly other persons. We do not yet know whether such an aspersion is justified. Until a full investigation has been carried out into the death and has been reported in reliable third-party sources, we do not know whether "protection" (i.e., padding) of such support beams is standard in luge runs around the world or whether padding would have made any difference in the circumstances. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 15:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Olympic categories
It appears that Kumaritashvili has been removed from the categories Lugers at the 2010 Winter Olympics and Olympic lugers of Georgia. Should he be included, because he was registered to compete and his death occurred at the Olympics? Or shouldn't he be included, because he hasn't started at an Olympic event? 94.212.31.237 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It may seem a bit disrespectful, but the fact of the matter is that he died before the games started, so he does not belong in those categories. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no strong feelings on the matter either way, but I suppose the issue that requires resolution is whether the categories in question are limited to sportspersons who have actually competed in the Olympics, or is being registered to participate sufficient? You may want to initiate a discussion on the WikiProject Olympics talk page. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 16:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the on-screen graphic for the Georgian team during the Opening Ceremonies indicated that the country had 8 representatives, and this reportedly included Kumaritashvili. He was a member of the Georgian Olympic team.  This would lead me to leave the categories.  Then again, team alternates, like Rhonda Faehn, are often included in the "representatives" count but don't have the categories for their year listed, either.  I dunno - just food for thought - Georgia seems to have still considered him very much a member of their team. -Etoile (talk) 18:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The graphic is probably neither here nor there. It could be that a technician omitted to update the graphic that had been prepared in advance. I think this is a matter for the good folks who manage WikiProject Olympics to decide, with inputs from other editors. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Page Vandalism
As this is a currently-breaking news story, need to block 68.163.157.63 from vandalism immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.146.170.237 (talk) 06:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * They've been warned twice, hopefully they have had their 'fun' and will go away. —220.101.28.25 (talk) 07:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No such luck, they vandalled another article and are on final warning! 220.101.28.25 (talk) 07:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Lock it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erocifellerskank (talk • contribs) 20:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Lock it! Idiots keep vandalising the page! 70.81.190.27 (talk) 20:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The current vandal-vs-good edit ratio is such that protection is probably not merited. If it gets worse report at WP:RPP. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * 2 IPs changed Kumaritashvilis' date of birth, his fathers name, and the speed he crashed at without edit summaries or new references so I reverted the lot. The date was definitely wrong according to the NBC Olympic site. The fathers name differs between references (as discussed below). The speed may come down to conversion factors, though I imagine the kilometer figure would be the most accurate? (Canada is metric?). Just FYI, otherwise I agree with Beeblebrox. —220.101.28.25 (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

MM-DD or DD-MM?
I notice the lead uses MM-DD, but the last sentence of the article notes it 13 February. hbdragon88 (talk) 07:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure whether there is any particular convention in Georgia. If so, use that convention. Otherwise, any consistent format is fine. Suggest sticking to MM-DD since that appears to be the original format. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixed it —220.101.28.25 (talk) 04:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Photographs
Have we got any photographs of the Georgian team at Opening Ceremonies (with their black armbands and scarves) that do not have a giant black spot? It looks like the photographer's finger is obscuring part of the picture. -Etoile (talk) 18:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No free ones at the moment. The current image was uploaded to Flickr under a free licence. You may want to do a Flickr search, and if you see any suitable images that do not look like copyright violations from other websites but are not tagged as CC-BY-2.0 or CC-BY-SA-2.0, try leaving the uploaders messages to request that the licences be changed to one of the aforementioned. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried re-cropping the image to minimize the black spot, it looks a bit better anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, that looks miles better. Thanks a lot! — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Father's name
The article currently states that Nodar's father's name is "Selix". The following ref (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/winter-olympics/7229591/Winter-Olympics-2010-Georgia-mourns-loss-of-luger-Nodar-Kumaritashvili.html) gives "Dato" which I think is the Georgian diminutive for David. The Telegraph gives his cousin and coach's name as "Felix". Is "Selix" even a Georgian name? Perhaps it is a misspelling of "Felix". Greenshed (talk) 10:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Wall Street Journal states: "Mr. Kumaritashvili's coach, Felix Kumaritashvili, who is a cousin of his father Dato and the head of the Georgian Luge Association, ...". That would mean that Nodar Kumaritashvili's coach Selix/Felix, and not his father, is the head of the Georgian Luge Federation. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 10:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, but Felix, not Selix ბრუტ (talk) 11:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Wall Street Journal gives his name as both David (in the image caption) and Dato (in the article text) here. Itar-Tass says David here, naming Felix as Nodar's first cousin once removed and head coach of the Georgian Luge team.  AFP says Dato here (also naming Felix as Nodar's "coach and cousin").  The Toronto Star gives Dato here and Selix here.  Reuters gives Selix here, here (as cited in the article), and here.  Yahoo Sports says Felix here.  While I rather suspect David/Dato is correct, I think we should just remove the whole sentence (both his father's name and the claim that he heads the Georgian Luge Federation) entirely until there's more something more authoritative; it doesn't add enough to the article to justify the uncertainty. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 12:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Oops I should have read this before editing. Feel free to revert what I wrote.--T. Anthony (talk) 12:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * What does it mean that "his father had been a luger in his own right"? That's lame grammar. Please reword. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.56.22.126 (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't claim to be the best at grammar, but on checking it the sentence seems to be grammatically fine. It indicates his father was also a luger. What you mean is it's not written with the clarity you would like. I might work on that.--T. Anthony (talk) 04:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The sentence is perfectly grammatical. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 06:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The question is, does "in his own right" add anything to the sentence? Apart from confusion of course. it may be grammatically correct. That does not make it good grammar.119.12.93.85 (talk) 12:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted (20 mins ago) some changes by IPs w/o edit summaries that 'changed' his fathers name. On checking there are discrepancies (as discussed above by Korath) even within one of the references, one WSJ uses "Dato" and "David" the name. The second WP reference only uses Dato. A third MG says Dato. Any more references to clear this up?. 220.101.28.25 (talk) 03:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

WSJ article
"Speed and Commerce Skewed Track's Design" (Wall Street Journal) is a long and interesting (and alarming) article. But I know so little about this sport that I don't want to attempt to summarize its content.

If that disappears, here you go, freshly archived by WebCite:


 * Crawford, David; Albergotti, Reed; Johnson, Ian. "Speed and commerce skewed track's design." Wall Street Journal, 2010-02-17. URL:online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704804204575069753617335586.html. Accessed: 2010-02-17. (Archived by WebCite® at www.webcitation.org/5nc4sGwLK)

-- Hoary (talk) 16:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Date formats
The footnotes currently use inconsistent date formats. Someone may want to go through all the footnotes and change the dates in them to the "February 22, 2010" format, since this appears to be the first-chosen format (and there is no other more appropriate format in the circumstances). — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Summer Olympics deaths?
Have there been any deaths in the preparation for the summer Olympics? May want to note them with the winter Olympic deaths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.231.87 (talk) 00:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that would be straying a bit too far from the main subject of the article. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 04:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Removal of external links
[Copied from User talk:Jacklee.] Hi Jacklee,

I'm curious as to why you removed the video I posted - Georgia Blames Olympics for Luger Kumaritashvili’s Death. This is a freely available video, there is no copyright infringement, and above all it was highly relevant.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.103.102.62 (talk) 15:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It wasn't removed by me but by BLGM5. You'll have to ask him. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 04:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I had a look at the link to the video report from VJ Movement that you added. It is certainly relevant to the article, but I'm not sure whether it can be said that there was no copyright infringement. The report appears to include official IOC footage. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 09:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Force of Impact
I want to calculate a value for the force of impact felt by Mr. Kumaritashvili when he hit the beam, to compare it with survivable forces for my Physics class. I can get that value if I knew how much time it took for the beam to slow him from 89 mph to a stop. Has that time actually been measured? Does anyone know a good guess for that time? Is it on the order of 0.01 seconds, or 0.001 seconds? Inkan1969 (talk) 14:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't this question a bit much considering the man has only died very recently? Don't forget, anyone in the world can see what you write here! If you must ask try the Science Reference Desk. They may not answer as per my comment. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 03:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Now, now, 220.101.28.25, WP:DONTBITE. But, Inkan1969, the Science Reference Desk does seem like a good place to raise your question. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I was a bit wasn't I? No offense meant! I may have had a very long or late night editing (a bad habit of mine). (But it was a bit soon for such a question, imho.) --220.101.28.25 (talk) 08:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

International Luge Federation (FIL) Final Report to IOC
I have added a section on the final accident report. I have also added a lot of quotes from it, but I am not sure if this may infringe copyright. The last large paragraph quoted in particuler is verbatim. To me this seem 'fair dealing' for this purpose, plus it is freely available from their website. If not, please adjust, rewrite, delete or revert as necessary. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 04:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this message. I think you've quoted too much from report. It may not amount to a copyright infringement (I don't know how long the full report is), but I don't think it is a good idea to have a separate subsection called "Selected report quotes". You should summarize the FIL's report in the section "Final Report", and perhaps add one or two short and very pertinent quotes only. Also, "Final Report" seems slightly misleading as I'm sure there will be a number of different reports arising out of the fatal accident, such as the coroner's report. It may be better to rename the section "Official reports about the accident". — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 04:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback, was about to 'ping' you (as №1 article editor) anyway! I have altered the section title as per your comment. And deleted some quotes that are covered in the last main quote. Will see about deleting, condensing, summarising more if I have time. You are naturally welcome to adjust or re-write as needed per wp:sofixit. ;-) Regards, --220.101.28.25 (talk) 06:23, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 06:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Removed section
I moved the whole following section here:


 * ===VANOC scandal===


 * On Feb 6th, 2011, The Globeandmail published that "VANOC feared injury ‘or worse’ year before luger's fatal crash". In an email sent from International Luge Federation (IFL) president Joseph Fendth, to the luge track’s designer, of which John Furlong, president of VANOC received a copy, it was noted that the Whistler sliding track was recording historic sled speeds that were nearly 20 kilometres an hour faster than the track designer had projected.


 * “Most of the athletes were able to cope with these extremely high speeds,” he wrote to IBG Designs in Germany. “Nevertheless, overstepping this limit would be an absolute unreasonable demand for the athletes. ... This causes me great worry.”


 * After being copied on Mr. Fendt’s letter, Mr. Furlong asked the Vancouver Organizing Committee’s “legal guys” to look at the situation.


 * “So after my usual seven second delay on this — While I am inclined to ignore this as not our deal — embedded in this note (cryptic as it may be) is a warning that the track is, in their view, too fast and someone could get badly hurt. ” Mr. Furlong wrote, in an e-mail obtained by the CBC. “An athlete gets badly injured or worse, and I think the case could be made that we were warned and did nothing. That said, I’m not sure where the way out is on this. Our legal guys should review at least.”


 * The answer came back from Tim Gayda, vice-president for sport: “I don’t believe there is anything to do.”


 * This was in obvious contradiction with what Mr. Furlong subsequently said after the death of the Georgian luger: "It’s not something I am prepared for, or anything I ever thought I would need to prepare for."

Verifiability certainly applies here, and there should be a citation to a reliable source at the end of every one of those quotes. mentioning "Globeandmail" [sic] at the beginning of the section does not meet the citation requirements. -- Donald Albury 23:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I find the whole blurb to read like original research. The sources are valid, but the original author pieced together the different quotes to derive his personal conclusion...i.e., "this was in obvious contradiction". --Madchester (talk) 01:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)