Talk:Normani

Stand alone article
If Cabello and Jauregui can have their stand alone articles then so should Kordei. She is just as notable if not more notable than the said members with articles. This article needs to stay in tact and I need help coming up with reliable sources. Welcome tothenew  millennium  22:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Continued recreation
, while I appreciate your enthusiasm for working on this topic, the newest version is nearly identical to the pre-redirect version. While I have no issues with this article being recreated, please send it through the Draft / AFC process so that it can be reviewed by other editors to ensure it has overcome the issues presented in the deletion discussion. Primefac (talk) 11:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Update: there is a draft at Draft:Normani Kordei. Primefac (talk) 11:40, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to question why this article is still being redirected, so I'll add my voice to questioning it. While there's not a great deal of depth to it, I'm seeing at least two secondary sources in the linked Draft that specifically cover the subject, which is the criteria for notability for Wikipedia. (Digital Spy isn't the best source but two articles on Billboard are solid, and one of those deals with her Dancing With the Stars appearance that happened after the AfD, meaning it's a source added beyond the decision of that AfD). Very quick glances at Google show 3.2M followers on Instagram and articles on People, Eonline, Us Magazine and The Mirror about various celebrity minutia...and many of these articles are AFTER that AfD closed. I recommend involved editors apply better sourcing and review the criteria for this article's independent existence.

The members of this music group are new to notability quick makes it reasonable to question such status, but it's contemporary and subject to change so Wikipedia should likewise adapt to said changes. -Markeer 23:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 September 2017
I'm asking in favor for Normani Kordei's page to be active and published for the Following reasons.

She was a finalist on Dancing with the Stars and placed third on the competition show. She has been featured in movies and tv shows. She has released her own music and dance videos. She lots of citable information regarding her mother's cancer and her family being Cancer ambassadors and legal troubles. She has lots of coverage of her history with gymnastics and has competed at an elite level. She is currently working on future projects that are still in the process of being released. She has been linked to notable celebrities She has made massive media coverage over cyber bullying and lots of citation of her talking about in articles, magazines, new papers, talk shows and news reports. Please take all my comments into consideration asking politely. Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 01:29, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello Welcometothenewmillenium. I cannot override the result of the discussion at Articles for deletion/Normani Kordei which was only six months ago. However if you think that discussion reached the wrong conclusion, or if things have changed in the last six months, then I suggest you keep working on the draft at Draft:Normani Kordei until you think it meets our standards for inclusion. Then you can open a Deletion review to see what other people think. Also pinging User:Lankiveil who closed the AfD in case they wish to comment. Regards &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * This is similar to a request I got a couple of days ago on my talk page. I'll make the same offer here; if you can provide some of the better quality sources that demonstrate this person's notability (that is, they're independent, substantial, and mostly about Normani Kordei and not some other topic), I'll be happy to restore the article for you to work on.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC).
 * , for what it's worth, I copy/pasted the article into the draft space, so if/when the draft becomes acceptable a straight-up histmerge will be the only thing necessary to preserve attribution. As near as I can tell there isn't anything that's deleted. Primefac (talk) 12:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I don't have any problem at all with any admin withdrawing the page protection, if some sources can be produced that demonstrate that the concerns from the AFD can be addressed.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC).

Picture
I was hoping someone could upload an image to the artist article. I would but I'm not good at uploading pictures. I'm looking for help from other users to do so. I'm giving anyone permission to do so. I want her to have a profile image to make her stand out even more! Please upload a good one and one that is in high quality! Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 19:40, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-Protect Normani Kordei's page
I think this article has reached enough covered to have stand alone article not only that but has enough information for the article to be protected. To ensure her article stays in tact I'm placing this requesting for her page to be protected!Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 00:39, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Padlock-dash2.svg Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Requests for page protection. Articles are semi-protected if there is a lot of vandalism from unregistered users. Having enough information is not a reason for semi-protection. Gulumeemee (talk) 01:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Seconded. There has been no vandalism (other than some questionable additions by you), and thus there's no reason to protect it. Primefac (talk) 02:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

What are the questionable edits that I have made are you stating that I'm the only one vandalizing or participating in the source?Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 18:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Just the occasional bit of unsourced information. Primefac (talk) 18:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

In future references I will make sure that my edits are more precise and my citation are linked correctly .. I would however look into other edits made by other users as well.Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I've noticed multiple counts of vandalism to Kordei's page. I'm in favor of requesting another semi-protection for her page!Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 23:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There was one vandal edit between now and 17 Dec. That is not sufficient vandalism. Primefac (talk) 00:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I took your advice of posting a request in Requests for page protection ... and created a discussion page for it too! Articles for Semi-Protection/Normani Kordei/Dinah Jane Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 10:49, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dancing with the Stars
I am of the opinion that the table of how well Kordei did on DWTS is rather trivial and somewhat undue, given the relatively small size of the page. If someone wants to know the minutiae of how she did they should check out the main season page. If there is no consensus against it I will be removing the table. Primefac (talk) 23:15, 22 December 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no need to remove a table showing an article progress work on a show. The table helps let people know what they did on the show and her progress. It is shown on other past contestants on the same show and isn't necessary to remove. She and her partner made it very far on the show and just like The X Factor table is inside the group Fifth Harmony's page showing how far they made it on the show. It's showing the same progress on her page as well. Having said both Normani herself and as a group Fifth Harmony both placed third place on their respected shows. There should be no further arguments against this! Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 04:52, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * But I do want to discuss it further. Visually, the table takes up almost 1/2 of the total content, much of the information lacks context, and it gives a bit of undue emphasis on the show itself. Primefac (talk) 12:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * My question in return to you is ... Are you concerned about the sized of the table and fear/worry that it's absorbing much of her page? What is it in the table that you feel lacks context or makes it seem undone in your opinion? I am willing to compromise with you but I'm also looking for answers and reasoning as to why you feel that way? If your worried about Kordei not having enough information outside the show Dancing with the Stars ... then let's find and come up with more sources in other areas that she is notable and famous and elaborate on those pieces of information? In my opinion I disagree with the fact that the table hurts her page or doesn't express, highlight or detail the show in any way. I feel like it enhances her page, has well thought out description and detailed progress of her on the show and the show it self. Her professional dancing partner has the exact same table and there's no controversy over it. Maybe if and when she becomes even more famous than she already is and has so much coverage covering other areas. That the table wouldn't be necessary and we can subtract it?

Plus also on a side note I just want to point out only in my opinion ... I feel as though this here artist Normani Kordei is the most debatable article out of all the members and past members of the group. Her page has been reverted several times even after she gained notability. Extremely underrated in my opinion because credit is not due to her in my opinion. When creating or posting information about Ms. Hamilton we have to fight and talked about it because we feel as though some people have a problem with or are bothered by it? I know that I'm leading off from the topic of conversation but it's still something to think about as well. That's all I just laid about my thoughts and opinion on stuff. You can choose to agree or disagree I just want to hear your thoughts on other auto-confirmed users as well!Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 09:34, 12 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I also believe the table should be removed. I put as examples Zendaya and Kim Kardashian, both were removed because were trivial. If you want to know the performances, click that other article. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 01:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

She's not famous like Zendaya or Kim Kardashian also that's a bad reason from a WikiUser to use as a response. To compare other notable people to other notable people. This article is not about Zendaya or Kim Kardashian. This article is about Normani we are focusing on Normani and only Normani! What difference does it make if her table stays or leaves. She was a contestant on Dancing with the Stars that is factual. She did make it to the finale and land in third place there's another known fact. Dancing with the Stars was one of the highlights of her career. It is not bad to mention and keep the table or not. Here's my thoughts once again when her career starts to boom and blow up which I am certain it will. Then we can talk about and argue whether or not to keep the table or not.Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Her career started with Fifth Harmony, then she went solo, released a track, went on DWTS, and did other stuff. The way the article is currently (with the collapsed table) gives a chronological order of events and it avoids having an unnecessarily huge table on the page. I was under the impression that with the collapsed table everyone gets what they want - you get your table and we don't have to worry about it being half the size of the article. Hell, it's been like that for over a month, and you've edited the page a dozen times since then. Primefac (talk) 11:28, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I've seen this article from a tablet and a smartphone and the table appears in full between paragraphs, not collapsed. Mainly the reason why I think it should be removed. Those DWTS seasons have articles for any reader that wants to see more. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 06:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth I'm seeing some valid reasons on both sides of this debate, but there's a 2:1 consensus to remove the table. I'd say unless there is other opposition, it should be removed. Primefac (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Normani Kordei. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141024135454/http://www.girlscoutsrv.org/2013/12/09/an-exclusive-fifth-harmony-concert-for-girl-scouts/ to http://www.girlscoutsrv.org/2013/12/09/an-exclusive-fifth-harmony-concert-for-girl-scouts/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:16, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Chart
She now has a profile in 7/10 of them so I added it. BB US/Can and UK Official Charts will most likely create it in the next days. I don't think the fields are a problem now. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 23:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * That's fine. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 12:30, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

BMI?
, your edit summary makes it sound like you agree with me. I guess my question is, if Normani won the award while being part of Fifth Harmony, should it really be considered "her" award? I mean, sure, I know that the entire cast of a film receives an Oscar trophy when the film wins, but we don't list it on (for example) Trevante Rhode's awards. I would think the same would apply here - Fifth Harmony won the award, so even though she got a bit of shiny to take home she didn't do it by herself. Primefac (talk) 17:31, 10 May 2018 (UTC)


 * She didn't win the award as a performer, she won as composer, just like each member of the group. They five are credited as composers for that song, and they are all on the list of winners. The BMI/ASCAP awards are for composers and publishers, not performers. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Normani Career
Normani is not apart of the girl group Fifth Harmony anymore. They announced their indefinite hiatus and released their finale music video Don't Say You Love Me. These are all signs that the group is not performing anymore. She is officially a solo singer! We are currently focusing on her solo projects as Normani the singer not Normani the girl from Fifth Harmony! It's an indefinite hiatus but indefinite which means they are not performing for a very, very, very long time ... I think highlighting the years 2012-2018 which are all the years she was apart of Fifth Harmony. It's her journey through X Factor and Fifth Harmony put together. Throughout all of those years it was from 2012-2018. That's why I made those edits because those are the correct highlight year margin.Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 04:38, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * We don't need to have dates for the various activities she's done. Yes, I know OTHERSTUFF says you can't compare one article to another, but I am comparing this article to hundreds of articles that I have worked on over the years, and the vast majority of them simply break down a career by the notable titles (not dates). The lead should take care of the "formerly of Fifth Harmony", and the section ends with "they're on hiatus" so it also is clear that she's not actively working with them. Primefac (talk) 11:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Awards
The awards list (seen in this version) was recently split out into List of awards and nominations received by Normani. There are nine awards, and to me the awards table as shown is not even close enough to "hefty" to justify a new page (unlike the discography, which is awkward enough that I fully support its existence). I say just merge it all back in (i.e. restore the old version) until there's a larger body of content. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

She has won five awards and has been nominated for eleven. These are big awards she has been nominated and received. Now if you look closely at articles Camila Cabello awards list and Lauren Jauregui awards list. Both articles had less awards starting out than Normani currently has right now. With Jauregui only receiving 8 nominations and Cabello starting out with only 4 awards and one pending at the beginning. My advice is look through these articles history and see the progress made on those before you start judging. The article is fine where it is at and needs to stay in tact.Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The list will look clunky on the page and is long enough to justify its existance. It will also take up a significant portion of the main page if merged which will be ridiculous given that her awards list is not the main priority. And it's only going to get longer from here. DanielleTH  (Say hi!) 02:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I second that too! I am too taking a vote now in opposing to merge the awards to main article page. She has received enough awards and is best to leave as is. If she is pending more awards and it is going to be sloppy if we merge then I am with DanielleTH  on this. Welcometothenewmillenium (talk) 07:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge. Unnecessary table for the bio article at this point; there's enough material for a standalone list article. Lapadite (talk) 19:22, 24 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Withdrawn. At the time I wrote this out, there were only 9 awards listed, which is a pittance for an article of this size (check out the old version of the page listed in my opening statement). With the increase in awards, though, I have no issue with the new content fork. Primefac (talk) 11:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Occupations in lead
, is there at least one reliable music source besides AllMusic's bio section that considers her notable as a songwriter? Lapadite (talk) 03:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Why do you need so many sources? You didn't have a source for "singer and dancer" before. She's clearly a songwriter. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 11:22, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm requesting just one other reliable music source that considers her a songwriter to support this. AllMusic's bio section alone is in my view not enough to support the notability of another occupation in the lead intro. AM's bio section has a history of sporadic content errors (which can be submitted for corrections) and sometimes listing off occupations per mere credits. The WP:ONUS is on you to provid requested info to support disputed content. If there's no other reliable music source that supports the inclusion of this occupation in the lead intro, then i'll remove it. If you want to seek a consensus please open an WP:RfC. Lapadite (talk) 01:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Request for comment: songwriter in lead intro
Should the lead intro sentence include "songwriter" as an occupation this new solo artist is notable for? RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 01:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC). Lapadite (talk) 16:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * No, don't include. Per majority of reliable sources, artist is notable for being part of the girl group Fifth Harmony, singing and dancing, for which she's received significant media attention. The lead intro should be restricted to occupation(s) the subject is/was notable for as per majority of reliable sources (and supported in the body of the article) (e.g., MOS:BEGIN, MOS:LEADBIO). found two sources that call her a songwriter and cited them to support the occupation in the lead intro: AllMusic's bio section, and a Forbes article. She is a new solo artist who has yet to release her debut album, and is known per majority of sources as singer and dancer formerly from Fifth Harmony. Songwriter is not (yet at least) a notable occupation. Moreover, us going by co-writing credits on a few singles since the group disbanded is WP:OR. The question is whether the two sources (a minority of sources) is enough to list the occupation in the lead intro, indicating that the artist is already notable for it. Lapadite (talk) 16:57, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I would say no. Lapadite, I agree with your interpretation of policy. This section seems especially relevant: avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. (See also the footnote at the end of that paragraph.) However, I think we're fighting an uphill battle on this - the lead sentence of basically any article about a pop singer seems to contain "songwriter", even if they just have a few co-writing credits scattered through their discography. I even got some pushback for trying to remove "music video director" and "record executive" from the lead sentence of Charli XCX a little while back. Colin M (talk) 21:27, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think we should leave "songwriter" there. She is a songwriter. There are two, (and probably more out there), sources calling her a songwriter. Not to mention the fact that she literally writes songs. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 21:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It is a fact that Hitler was a painter, and I'm sure I can find more than two sources that say so. That doesn't mean I should edit the lead of Adolf Hitler to read "Adolf Hitler was a German politician, painter, and leader of the Nazi Party". It's not a question of truth or verifiability, it's a question of WP:DUE weight. Colin M (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That's not really that relevant to this situation. Most musical artists who are songwriters have it in their lead. I don't see why Normani is any different. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 21:51, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In many cases it is appropriate - e.g. Songwriting is a big part of Lana Del Rey's public image. In their review of Norman Fucking Rockwell, Pitchfork called her "one of America's greatest living songwriters". So heck yeah we should call her a songwriter in the lead sentence of her article. In other cases, occupations (including "songwriter") are included inappropriately in the leads of other artists' articles. That's not a reason to make the same mistake here. Colin M (talk) 22:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Another question, how is she any more of a singer than a songwriter? She's had a hand in writing all of her solo promotional/singles. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 22:08, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * "It's not a question of truth or verifiability, it's a question of WP:DUE weight" - precisely, . WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't a valid argument, outside of using vetted featured articles as a guide. The existence of other articles that disregard WP's policies & guidelines because some fans want any credit presented as a notable occupation in the lead intro doesn't justify other articles following suit. WP:DUE is policy, the MoS is WP guideline., any subjective discussion we could have on how she or any artist may be more of a x than a y, or z number of credits determining anything, is our WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. The question is whether this new artist is notable for this occupation as per majority of reliable sources, who have regarded her notability to be as a singer and dancer (in the group and as a solo artist right now). Virtually all her media attention and article writeups has been for her dancing and singing. Lapadite (talk) 00:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Include - If she is labeled a songwriter in multiple reliable sources, then we describe her as such in the lead. I don't think there is any question as to whether or not she is a songwriter.  Meatsgains (talk) 00:51, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - A recent Billboard article from today exemplifies her notability according to how majority of sources regard her: as a singer and dancer/performer (the latter of which has garnered the bulk of media attention). The vast majority of sources do not write about her as a songwriter. Lapadite (talk) 17:54, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Include - Since Kordei has co-written every song she has released as a solo artist and also the sources correctly noting her as a songwriter. Literally why does this need discussion; because she is a really good dancer and people focus on that a little bit more? Laughable.--NØ 16:32, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: also, a slippery slope: "Model" has now also been added to the lead intro; now a laundry list of occupations, half of which artist is not notable for. This happens when fans are used to being allowed to dismiss policies like WP:DUE and the MoS for the lead and add in any & all occupations an artist has been associated with in any capacity, as opposed to noting the main occupations an artist is primarily notable for as per majority of sources and supporting this notability in the body of the article. Lapadite (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Include At 23, she has co-written at least 3 songs with articles - it seems enough. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , lead intros per WP's policies & guidelines (some of which were noted above), not an arbitrary number of co-writing credits. Lapadite (talk) 04:18, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * She has recorded the same amount of songs she has written. So shall we remove singer from the lead as well? No. And you don't have to attack every person who disagrees with you. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 04:22, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Lapadite is asserting that the writing is an "Incidental and non-noteworthy role[s] (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability)", which seems unlikely. And if this were the case just now, it probably won't be in a year's time. Johnbod (talk) 12:13, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read WP:AGF and don't call mere comments on content an "attack" because it challenges what you want. Second, since when do WP policies and guidelines say we determine lead intro content per our own arbitrary lines for co-credits or against majority of reliable sources (WP:DUE)? Because I distinctly recall WP's PAG (including the Manual of Style) stating the opposite. Do read and please don't disregard MOS:BEGIN, MOS:LEADBIO and particularly this section Colin M pointed out. And as was noted before, other stuff existing on WP isn't an argument for inclusion. Fans of artists have been accustomed to disregarding WP PAG for the lead intro and including any occupation they want to highlight that the artist is somehow associated with: artist signed a fashion modeling contract or modeled for a day, they're notable for modeling; artist has co-writing credits (regardless if it's among a dozen other names), they're notable for songwriting; artist strummed a guitar in a performance, they're a notable guitarist or musician; artist was in a film or TV episode, they're a notable actor; artist has a vocal producer credit, they're a notable music producer; artist is an executive producer on a project, they're a notable film producer; etc etc. That is not what the lead intro is for. It's not an arbitrary number of credits that determines whether a role an artist has received a credit for is an occupation for which an artist is *notable*. You can state all their credits in the body of the article; but fans are keen on noting it in the lead intro. Lapadite (talk) 19:59, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * My god, you're stubborn. Just forget it at this point. If you insist that she isn't notable for it, then remove it. I'm done. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 22:24, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * No. It is often logically impossible to prove a claim that's in the negative form, e.g. "Mr Brown has never read the Bible." In this RfC, the side that proclaims that the subject is not known as a singer songwriter does not have to prove it: citing sources that do not mention Normani as such proves nothings since there might be numerous others that do. It's the side that claims she is known as a singer songwriter that has to come up with sources denoting her as such. Moreover, the citation must be specific! Airy, generic statements such as "there are sources that say so" just won't do. I have searched online and could not find significant coverage of subject in sources listing her as a "singer songwriter." And I only need to be shown the error of my ways to change my mind. -The Gnome (talk) 12:41, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * No, shouldn’t be included To keep this article in line with Wikipedia’s reliability rules it should not be included in the lead. As stated above she hasn’t technically written any songs as a solo artist yet so she can not be notable as a songwriter yet. Keep it as is Pedestrianswimmer (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No, for reasons given by, , and . 203.10.55.11 (talk) 22:49, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No. Too soon, not enough sources. In particular, we'll know she's notable for the add-on occupation when we have in-depth coverage of her songwriting in multiple, independent, reliable sources (WP:GNG). Passing mention/labeling isn't in-depth. And AllMusic is a WP:UGC site, anyway, not a source. So that leaves only trivial coverage in Forbes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Nationality
Normani is American. She was born in America. The first sentence of this article literally says "Normani is an American singer...". So explain to me how she is African-American? Billiekhalidfan (talk) 23:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Assuming this isn't a rhetorical question, I would direct you to the article African Americans. Colin M (talk) 17:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)