Talk:Norrie May-Welby/Archive 1

Omitted data that changes the notability of this article
Significant data was omitted from this article, and these omissions inflated the notability of the subject. That data includes information on Alex MacFarlane, the first Australian to obtain an 'X' sex marker on a passport, due to an indeterminate sex recorded on Alex's birth certificate, and also on Councillor Tony Briffa JP, who publicly states possession of a birth certificate that is "silent" on the matter of sex. Nsw2042 (talk) 02:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

In considering notability, it may be that the subject is notable for being popularly perceived to be the first Western person to be officially "genderless" or of "indeterminate sex", even though it is clear that this is not actually the case.

In addition to data on Australia, the NZ Department of Internal Affairs states: "A person’s sex can be recorded as indeterminate at the time of birth if it cannot be ascertained that the person is either male or female, and there are a number of people so recorded. However it is not possible to go from a specified gender to indeterminate at a later stage under section 28". http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/Files/GeninfoDeclarationsofFamilyCourt/$file/GeninfoDeclarationsofFamilyCourt.pdf See also 28 (3) (a) (ii) of the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 1995 http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1995/0016/latest/whole.html#DLM359377 Nsw2042 (talk) 04:12, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination - "too short"
I have nominated this article for the "Did You Know" spot on the Main Page, however, apparently it is too short (needs to be at least 1500 words): --Mais oui! (talk) 07:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Template_talk:Did_you_know
 * I fixed it. If we can get an admin to come in and re-review it, we should be good to go. I'm working on that right now. Silver  seren C 19:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow...
... I'm surprised there isn't a super-long discussion thread on what pronoun to use. Where I would expect an edit war, there isn't. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 10:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You would expect so, but not really. The sources clearly use zie and hir more prominantly than any other gender-neutral pronoun and, for now, those two are the most widely used ones, so that's why they're used in the article. But, don't worry, i'm sure we'll get someone who feels differently at some point and i'll have to boot them out of the article. Silver  seren C 19:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You just had to get them started, didn't you? :P Silver  seren C 20:45, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. :) 24.189.90.68 (talk) 00:28, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't care enough to edit war, but this is grating to read. It's like you replaced every adjective with marklar. Surely there's a way it can be rewritten to sound more natural? &mdash;dgies tc 06:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur. Reading 'zie' all the time - I felt like I was reading a German/Gothic parody article.  Hir is bad, but zie is a disaster.  Toby Douglass (talk) 08:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that we cannot use any male or female pronouns, because this person isn't either of those anymore, legally so. One method would be to rewrite the article so no pronouns are used whatsoever, but that would be a long and tiring process. If you feel up to it, go ahead and try, but it will take a while. Do you have any other alternative gender neutral pronouns that you feel would be easier to read? Silver  seren C 08:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I gave it a shot. It's not that heard really. Feel free if you can think of more natural wordings.  &mdash;dgies tc 14:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm impressed. Nice job. Silver  seren C 17:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Birthdate
An extract of Welby's change of name certificate shows Welby was born on 23 May 1961. Photos of the extract were published online in the Sydney Morning Herald (see here: http://images.smh.com.au/2010/03/11/1214985/200-certificate-200x0.jpg), along with a short video on the story. I've amended the birthdate accordingly. Neuterz (talk) 14:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, sorry about that. Silver  seren C 19:05, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The court case to establish a right to sex not specified was lost ( Human Rights Comission Australia ) so the NSW Attourney generals discision to disalow that apalation stands and the designator on the certificate of recognition likewise stands.

Several Intersex individuals prior to welby have hsuccessfuly had sex not specified on their birth certificate and other cardinal Documents. Alexane Macfarlane being the notable first. Historic catagories catagorising human beings as other than male or female have existed for centuries.

The claim to first is unsustainable after the loss of the case in the Human Rights comission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ginavampire (talk • contribs) 11:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Another thing..
Welby didn't move to New South Wales when aged 7. Welby grew up in Perth, Western Australia, and didn't move to New South Wales until the 1990s. Neuterz (talk) 15:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not what the sources say. If you want it change, then you need to find a reliable source that says that. Silver  seren C 19:05, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, you did, never mind then. Silver  seren C 19:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The first?
I understood that certain South or Southeast Asian countries had introduced a gender marker for the third genders recognized in their cultures, which would mean that Welby isn't the first to be legally neither a man nor a woman. True? - 70.29.146.202 (talk) 06:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but they were not legally recognized by the government as such. Culturally is not the same thing as legally. Silver  seren C 08:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, see Lhamana. As far as I know the Mexican government nor the New Mexico state ever did legally have a "third" gender. Neuterz (talk) 02:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * A 2010 article about the subject makes reference to an earlier case of an individual receiving an 'indeterminate' passport, and subsequent research shows a peer-reviewed source and evidence of a published policy dating from that earlier case. Nsw2042 (talk) 03:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Real name?
I'd wondered whether Norrie May-Welby was his birth name, or an identity zie adopted on becoming genderless. Somebody's mentioned a change of name certificate - is this correct? In any case it would be nice if we can find out this person's original name. Possibly even the name she adopted on the previous sex change. -- Smjg (talk) 21:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is finding a reliable source that states hir real name. I haven't been able to find one so far. Silver  seren C 22:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You'll have to look up old copies of The West Australian newspaper from the late 1980s. Norrie was involved in a court case in Perth over cheque fraud in which hir birthname was mentioned a number of times in the reports. A clue here is that Norrie is also a Scottish male first name. Neuterz (talk) 03:48, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Source not valid
When you state that "This comes three years after Australia's foreign minister, Alexander Downer, had secretly and without consultation reversed a policy whereby trans people could obtain a passport stating their "intended sex." The source that you have indicated does not state Alexander Downer at all. This is an invalid and unproven point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.31.58.101 (talk) 23:59, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

'Redistribution of Capital'
New to wikipedia editing, so apologies if I've made any mistakes, but Norrie explicitly states in interviews that hir name is spelled "Norrie mAy-Welby". Lower-case 'm', upper-case 'A', as in 'mAy'. This can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy7QrZuJ1Jw (When asked why this is, ze replies 'Redistribution of capital'). I'm unaware of how to change the spelling of the name at the top of the page. Would appreciate if someone could assist in that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yellowbird21 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Birth certificate authority vs. place of birth
I'm puzzled that Norrie's place of birth (Scotland) is an entirely different country than one that has issued a birth certificate (Australia). I don't see how that could be, and wanted to acknowledge this article as relevant but decided to pose the question on |WP Third gender Talk page

PårWöet (talk) 15:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi there, the answer is already in the article text: a "registered details certificate". Trankuility (talk) 22:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Assigned vs Identified
OK, two things: (1) the current wording states that Norrie "identified as male at birth", however, the terminology I've heard is that people are *assigned* a gender rather than "identifying at birth". Does anyone know if Norrie has specified this? I can't find clarification in any of the sources. (2) Is it worth putting links to gender identity or similar down the bottom of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knittea (talk • contribs) 12:59, 6 June 2016 (UTC)