Talk:Northeast Philadelphia

Ethnic groups?

 * ...a section of the city of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania predominantly populated by those of Italian, Polish, Russian, Eastern European Jewish and Irish Catholic descent.

I'm sure there are also plenty of WASPs, German-Americans and Western European Jews living in the Northeast. Since the area is so vast, might it be better to avoid listing ethnic groups, especially which ones predominate, in the opening sentence? -- Pas tri cide!   Non-absorbing 16:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You're probably right. I think that the author just wanted to avoid saying "the Northeast is predominantly white." Which it is. If you think there's a better way to write that sentence, why not go for it?  Coemgenus 02:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, hell with it, I just did it myself. What do you think? Coemgenus 02:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Near Northeast?
I lived near the Roosevelt Mall for 26 years. Not once did I hear the the term "Near Northeast". Never. I went to Northeast High School, not Near Northeast High School. When did that term come into use? RockinRob 03:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm from Juniata Park myself, and I've never heard the term "Near Northeast." I've only ever heard it referred to as the "Lower Northeast." J-Red 22:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)Outtaherephils


 * From Juniata as well... I've only regularly heard "Northeast Philly" and "The Greater Northeast" or "Far Northeast" in normal usage. I usually take these to mean Fishtown to about Mayfair as "the Northeast" and areas beyond Mayfair, such as Torresdale and Burholme as the "Greater Northeast" - Anonymous reader  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.36.4.195 (talk) 05:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Fishtown, Kensington, (19125, 19134) are NOT part of NE Philly. They are considered part of the "River Wards". NE Philadelphia ends at the Tacony Creek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankford_Creek Centerone (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Gimbels
Hey, Remember Gimbels Department Store? In huge letters beneath its name, on the front wall, it said,"Greater Northeast", and that's how I remember it. When I was very young I took that to mean that the Northeast was better than the rest of Philly. Come to think of it, it was the best back then (1960s through the 80s)

Changes
'''Make a note to monitor changes to recreation and culture. Someone seems to hate the recent Fox Chase expansion plans into Burlholme Park and keeps making edits to that point'''


 * do not live in the Northeast, but work there. The news media refer to the areas as "Near Northeast" and "Lower Northesast" interchangably. I'm sure everyoe is familiar with term "Far Northeast", but only those not in the Northeast hear "Near Northeast" regularly, ut it does exhist. I believ it is used to describe the area from Rhawn to Cottman and sometime as far down as Oxford Circle. User:Heybiff

POV
The Raj Bhakta "Save the Northeast" campaign seems like advertisement for Raj's campaign - 68.32.34.152 00:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think just deleting the one sentence about Bhatka's campiagn strategy, along with the characterization "moderate" should suffice to remove the POV. --Coemgenus 01:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

GA passed

 * 1. Well written? Pass
 * 2. Factually accurate? Pass
 * 3. Broad in coverage? Pass
 * 4. Neutral point of view? Pass
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images? Pass

It has pretty much what is needed for such an article. Throughly well written and easy to read. It would need more book references to expand the article but as of now it has enough references. Lincher 18:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Parkwood
Hope no one minds, I started to flesh-out the area for Parkwood...Appreciate any and all help Shoessss 15:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Full Incorporation Date
The city fully incorporated the entire county in 1950, not 1854. This included major areas of the Northeast, including Bustleton, Rhawnhurst, Foxchase, Somerton, etc. The 1854 date may have validity for other sections of the Northeast, but I believe they were in the lower Northeast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjlemi (talk • contribs)


 * In 1854, all municipalities in Philadelphia County were merged into the City of Philadelphia. I think what you are talking about in 1950 was the City Charter, which consolidated the city and county offices and made the County of Philadelphia a legal nullity.  But the all townships, boroughs, and districts in Philadelphia County other than the City of Philadelphia ceased to exist in 1854. Coemgenus 19:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Book reference
Here is a book reference for the Northeast, unfortunately only one page, but relevant to more sections of the article than the inline citations I have added to the text.


 * The Weigley book is a good one. Unfortunately, most Philadelphia histories focus on Center City, with a little bit of South Philly and Germantown.  I'll see what I can find, but there's not much out there.  Coemgenus 16:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You have done quite a bit to improve the inline citations, and probably enough for GA status. Too bad we only have a week, when I have house guests for much of that week. Maybe I can find another book source or two, if I am quick about it. --DThomsen8 (talk) 17:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A week is a guideline rather than a carved-in-stone rule. If editors are willing to work on the article, I have no problem with extending the hold to a timeframe that suits you better. It would obviously be unfair to demand that a Wikipedia editor place my arbitrary timeframe over their real life. GaryColemanFan (talk) 20:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a new book being shipped that should work to fill in the remaining tags.  Should be here by the end of the week.  Coemgenus 14:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

2011 earthquake
In May 2011, a 1.7 magnitude earthquake hit the area, resulting in a rumbling boom and shaking buildings. It was the second one in the Philadelphia area that month.(see: "Earthquake caused boom in N.E. Philly", "News Video: USGS: Earthquake Hit NE Philly")

Lower, Far, Old
Great article, I think. Just a few comments:

In the "Geography" section is this:


 * The demarcation line between [the Lower Northeast and the Far Northeast] is typically given as Cottman Avenue.

The footnote to that has a link to an archived webpage, but the linked page doesn't come up — not on my computer, anyway. The statement is contradicted by the article's map, in which the dividing line appears to be Pennypack Creek (i.e., farther north). To me, the creek seems like the correct divider, but I think part of this has to do with when one was born and/or where one grew up.

Here's what I mean: The article says that Bridesburg, Port Richmond, and Fishtown are sometimes said to be part of the Northeast, though they lie south of Frankford/Tacony Creek (which the article names as the Northeast's southern border). Indeed, the article's map highlights "Kensington," south of the creek, as part of the Northeast; that, I'd guess, roughly corresponds to the aforenamed Bridesburg, Port Richmond, and Fishtown.

It's certainly not unreasonable to think of that "Kensington" section as part of the Northeast. In the first place, it is located where the Delaware River swings to the northeast (above Spring Garden Street); it would likely have seemed a "northeast" part of the city to the inhabitants of the original, colonial section (downtown, near the river). Geographically, it's the root of the northeast wing of the city's territory. (By "northeast wing," I mean all three sections that are hightlighted in the map, i.e., basically everything east of Front Street once the river bends and Front Street keeps going straight northward.) This is reflected in, at least, two things: (1) "Northeast Catholic High School," which is the full name of "North Catholic," which is (was) sited just below Frankford/Tacony creek, in that "Kensington" section. (2) The comment of 05:14 10 June 2008 in the present talk page's section headed "Near Northeast?" The comment, which was posted without an editor-name, is this:


 * [I'm from] Juniata as well... I've only regularly heard "Northeast Philly" and "The Greater Northeast" or "Far Northeast" in normal usage. I usually take these to mean Fishtown to about Mayfair as "the Northeast" and areas beyond Mayfair, such as Torresdale and Burholme as the "Greater Northeast"

That's not an unreasonable view; but as you see, it includes that "Kensington" area as part of the northeast. I don't know the birth year of the person who posted that, but I myself was born in 1953 and grew up near Northeast High School. That, as you know, is on Cottman Avenue (on the north side); it's in the area that the Wikipedia map shows as the lower (or "Near") northeast. Interestingly, as Wikipedia reports, the school used to be at, of all places, 8th and Lehigh — i.e., seven blocks west of Front Street — where it still had the word "northeast" in its name (Northeast Manual Training School).

My point is this:

That "Kensington" section seems to be "Old Northeast Philadelphia" (my coinage), rather as Ohio, Illinois, and so on used to be "the northwest territory" of the U.S. (Note the year that "Northeast Catholic" opened in that "Kensington" section:  1926.)  Similarly:  to someone who lived in Oxford Circle and who came of age before, say, 1950, everything above Cottman Avenue might seem "the Far Northeast." That, in fact, is how the Wikipedia text defines that section. On the other hand, the Wikipedia map comports with my sense, i.e., the sense of a person who was born in 1953 and grew up near Cottman. To me and, apparently, whoever drew up that map, the "far" northeast, i.e., the "new" part (obviously not new any more), is, say, above Pennypack Creek.

In other words:

What is "the northeast" and what is the upper or far northeast seem steadily to have moved northward, through the twentieth century, as the city's northeast wing was steadily developed, farther and farther away from center city.108.36.209.26 (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, first, the map is wrong as it highlights Kensington as part of NE Philly which it is simply not. You make a lot of assumptions and speculations here, which while I don't have a particular problem with your logic, arn't exactly appropriate to how such encyclopedic entries are built. If you want to justify such statements (you can't coin things yourself) find historical and verifiable references from reliable sources. I've spoken with people who were born at many different years and would disagree with some of what you said, of course, what they say and what you say is irrelevant to the entry unless we can show it in documented sources. Centerone (talk) 08:06, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I wasn't suggesting any changes should be made on the basis of my speculations. I was presenting a possible explanation for the variation — evidenced in the article and on the present page — in the understanding of the terms "Northeast," "Lower Northeast," and "Far Northeast"; more important, I was pointing out the related fact (which you don't address) that the article's text and map effectively disagree on the border between the lower and far northeast.


 * The article's present footnotes 2 and 3 include links to archived webpages that supposedly bear on these questions but that do not come up on my computer. I see that the article that is linked in footnote 3 is entitled "Boundaries have evolved with the times" — my very point.  Until fairly recently, I myself never considered the possibility that "Kensington" is part of the northeast; but as I said above, geography and the historical names of some schools accord with the fact that some persons evidently think it such.  Because I have no access to those footnote-links, your statement that it isn't is, for me, only an assertion.


 * I placed my comments on the present page simply because I thought they might be helpful to editors who have a particular interest in editing the article, editors who might be inclined to examine records and such that might bear on these questions. To say it again, I realize the comments in themselves are not the basis for revisions; that's why I made none.108.36.209.26 (talk) 20:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * PS I'd guess the reason that you, I, and, probably, others tend — or have tended — not to think of Kensington as part of "the northeast" is that its streets and homes are not like those of the areas above it.  I don't know any of these areas in detail; but basically, I think of Kensington as being laid out like the city's "central lozenge" (another of my coinages), by which I mean the vertical row of areas that the Wikipedia map identifies as Olney/Oak Lane, North Philadelphia, Center City, and South Philadelphia (in short:  the area of which Broad Street is the spine).  Kensington's row homes do not have the lawns that the Wikipedia article identifies as characteristic of the northeast; its streets are an extension of the central lozenge's grid, though they are canted to match the river's northeast bend.  (If you'll check Google Maps, you'll see that, with the exception of a short stretch of Wyoming Avenue, alongside Juniata Park, nothing of the city's street grid survives east or north of Frankford/Tacony Creek, which the Wikipedia article identifies as the point at which the northeast begins.  Below the creek, on the other hand, virtually all of the cross streets survive, even though, as I say, they're at about forty-five degrees to the grid's main section.)  That notwithstanding, there are evidently persons for whom Kensington is part of the northeast.108.36.209.26 (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * PPS It just occurred to me to check the website of the Northeast Times, which, as you know, is the Northeast's freely-distributed newspaper.  I wanted to see whether the site included a map of the area in which the paper is distributed.  I haven't found anything like that, but I did find two articles that have to do with persons from "Kensington."  One is about an independent filmmaker from Port Richmond; the other is about a Kensington community group centered on the area around Kensington Avenue and Somerset Street.  That's pretty far down.  There's also an article about an environmental problem in Fishtown — around Aramingo Avenue, between Cumberland and York.  That's even farther down — though an EPA man who is quoted in the article does seem to use the term "the Northeast" as if it is something different from "this area" (i.e., the Fishtown area that is the subject of the article).  I also saw an article about bars or pubs or something in "the riverwards," which seem to be the "Kensington" area we're discussing.  (The article is written by a resident of Fishtown.)  Here are the links:


 * "Port Richmond native's film 'Swooped' to screen at the Troc" Northeast Times, March 14, 2012.
 * "Taking back the block" Northeast Times, March 14, 2012.
 * "Fishtown lead levels may require precautions" Northeast Times, March 14, 2012.
 * "Where to celebrate St. Patrick's Day in the riverwards" Northeast Times, March 14, 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.36.209.26 (talk) 02:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Attack of the biased, Irish-motivated Anonymous Editor
A while ago there was an IP based editor who kept inserting unreferenced statements in regards to the Irish in regards to their demographics and history of the Northeast. Several editors continued to revert his edits, and ask for clarification. If not a discussion here, there were certainly notes on it in the edit reverts. Well, it seems like over time the editor has come back, and while it seems like these unreferenced claims have been added to the article over time.. at very least they were balanced by other edits. Well, it looks like he is back with a vengance.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.226.216.220 and has recently added four categories (one of which doesn't exist) to this article. In addition, he's clearly made repeated edits related to the Irish to numerous other articles as you can see from his contributions above. The main problem I believe, apart from being unreferenced, is that the edits attribute an undue weight to the topic. Centerone (talk) 03:47, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * He's at it again. I encouraged him to discuss it on the talk page, but we'll see. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

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