Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 4

Lunxhery
Actually when a government relocates a specific population from another place as part of a policy of Albanization, the specific group is called 'settlers'. It's the very definition of the word: They were "employed as sheperds" and settled there to create a buffer zone between two regions.

By the way, about Lunxhery it appears that this became a "traditionally Albanian-speaking area" due to the policies of the post-wwii regime "Due to the departures of the filogrek and to the policy of Albanisation undertaken by the Albanian state since its creation, the sense of national [185] belonging in Lunxhëri was, until recently, quite clear: not only are the Lunxhots ethnically and nationally Albanian, as opposed to the Greeks and Vlachs, they are even supposed to be the only true Albanians of the area,". in another part: "people recall today how well the Greek officers were treated by the Greek-speaking and aristocratic Lunxhots who had lived in Istanbul or in the United States." Thus, it appears that this region wasn't clearly "traditionally Albanian speaking" per De Rapper, although the officially view presented by the local regime in 60s was diferrent.Alexikoua (talk) 14:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


 * (yes my post is much but what you have inferred deserves in depth discussion). First let’s get the spelling right. Its Lunxhëri not Lunxhery. Also i do have access to the same book. Second using the word settlers is POV pushing. The source does not use that word. De Rapper says they where" Muslim Albanian villagers" and they were resettled there by the Albanian government. The wording in the article should resemble that. Your comment that "They were "employed as sheperds" and settled there to create a buffer zone between two regions." is correct. However we do not infer that they were "settlers" if the source has not used that word. This is so it is in line with neutrality Wikipedia polices and the sentence not being POV. As you have often reminded me in the past, and now i am starting to do the same with you, we do not place our own interpretation on the source especially when certain terms may be have loaded meanings that are absent in the source. De Rapper calls them "villagers" and we should stick with that. No POV pushing, please.


 * Separate to the Lunxhots identity, regarding their speech, their mother tongue De Rapper has pointed that they were Albanian speaking even in a historic sense. He does this in a series of sentences. He states on pages 182-183using Hobhouse (remember that guy) as a reference:


 * "Apart from religion, ethno-national affiliation appears to be of great relevance today. It is clear that, in this border area, it has always been important to identify oneself with one or other of the national groups. It is also well-known that, in this part of the Balkans, and back into the Ottoman times, the ethnonyms ‘Greek’ and ‘Orthodox Christian’ were largely synonymous, so that it was difficult to be Orthodox and to claim not to be Greek. Lunxhëri is an illustration of that ambiguity or contradiction. By the beginning of the nineteenth century and later on, the British, French and Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri, most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants. As one traveller reported Hobhouse 1813: Every appearance announced to us that we were now in a more populous country. (...) the plain was every where cultivated, and not only on the side of Argyro-castro [Gjirokastër]... but also on the hills which we were traversing, many villages were to be seen. The dress of the peasants was now changed from the loose woollen brogues of the Greeks, to the cotton kamisa, or kilt of the Albanian, and in saluting Vasilly they no longer spoke Greek. Indeed you should be informed, that a notion prevails amongst the people of the country, that Albania, properly so called, or at least, the native country of the Albanians, begins from the town of Delvinaki; but never being able, as I have before hinted, to learn where the line of boundary is to be traced, I shall content myself with noticing the distinction in the above cursory manner. In this place [Qestorat, in Lunxhëri] everything was on a very different footing from what it had been in the Greek villages. We experienced a great deal of kindness and attention from our host; but saw nothing in his face (though he was a Christian) of the cringing, downcast, timid look of the Greek peasant. His cottage was neatly plastered, and white-washed, and contained a stable and small ware-room below, and two floored chambers above, quite in a different style from what we had seen in Lower Albania. It might certainly be called comfortable; and in it we passed a better night than any since our departure from Ioannina."


 * So your comments that "By the way, about Lunxhery it appears that this became a "traditionally Albanian-speaking area" due to the policies of the post-wwii regime " is not corroborated by De Rapper or his citing of the data. On page 183, which i urge to to look at he goes into how people in the region who spoke Albanian but where Chrsitian adopted a Greek identity. You also state that "Due to the departures of the filogrek and to the policy of Albanisation undertaken by the Albanian state since its creation, the sense of national [185] belonging in Lunxhëri was, until recently, quite clear: not only are the Lunxhots ethnically and nationally Albanian, as opposed to the Greeks and Vlachs, they are even supposed to be the only true Albanians of the area,".


 * National belonging and them being Albanian speaking are two different things regarding the Orthodox. Don't conflate the two and nor does De Rapper in how you have done.


 * "in another part: "people recall today how well the Greek officers were treated by the Greek-speaking and aristocratic Lunxhots who had lived in Istanbul or in the United States.""


 * De Rapper goes into how people adopted a Greek identity in the area while still being Albanian speaking (see pages 183-184). In fact even from his fieldwork amongst the Lunxhots, they themselves started to De Rapper that (p.184.)"At the same time, it seems certain that most of the women spoke only Albanian, and no Greek, just as, in the first decades of twentieth century, Pogoni women spoke Greek and no Albanian (Winnifrith 2002). Greek was, however, used in church services all over Lunxhëri, and an old woman from the village of Këllëz recalled that ‘we, the women, did not understand what the priest was saying’. It is also suggested, in the memories of the kurbet, that young men leaving Lunxhëri for Istanbul spoke only Albanian and would learn Greek and Turkish in Istanbul." Of course the upper echelons of Lunxhot society was Greek speaking due to their learning Greek from the church and thier migling when migrating with the Greek community (as per De Rapper).


 * Hence what you have stated: "Thus, it appears that this region wasn't clearly "traditionally Albanian speaking" per De Rapper, although the officially view presented by the local regime in 60s was different." does not suffice. The Lunxhots were between Helleniisation and Albanisation. What is beyond doubt (just like the Souliots) is that they spoke and regarding the Lunxhots still speak Albanian. Regarding their identity, that different and have stated that.


 * "pointy edits by cherry picking specific parts of De_Rapper (the epulsion of the pro-Greek element in 30s etc. as it states, and intermarriages with the Greek minority))"


 * Regarding your reason for the change also, the Albanian government did not expel the pro-Greek Orthodox Albanian speaking element. Don't apply a POV pushing interpretation on the source when that does not exist within. Elements within the Lunxhot community where intimidating each to choose sides separate to the Albanian government. De rapper states of page 184-185 regarding the era and matter you are partially referring to):


 * "These fluid identities were to be crystallised at the time of the creation of the Albanian state (1913) and during the process of Albanisation that followed. Lunxhëri was actually included in the definition of Northern Epirus as a land of Hellenism that should have been given to the Greek state in 1913, and many families left the area, and Albania, during and after the First World War, to avoid becoming citizens of the new Albanian state. These people are called in Albanian propaganda filogrek and seem to have been powerful enough at some times to force pro-Albanian families to leave Lunxhëri. It the interwar period for instance, the village of Selckë is said to have been ‘full of filogrek’ and an informant told me the story of her husband’s father, who secretly left the village one night with his wife, after a cousin told him that his pro-Albanian commitment did not please a powerful pro-Greek family. They left for America, while the pro-Greek family eventually left for Greece. Their house is now occupied by a Vlach family. It must be noted that the development of those national feelings did not automatically follow the linguistic border between Greek and Albanian. The stress on language as a criterion of national identification was probably stronger in the minds of nationalist activists and members of the international commission for the drawing of the border than among the local population. As T. J. Winnifrith reports from the notes of a British archaeologist in 1924: On 24 January Clarke left [Hllomo, in Albanian Pogon] for Labovë. He noted that then as now he was crossing ''a linguistic border from an area where Greek is spoken to one where it was merely understood. But he also said that there was little difference between the architecture of Labovë and of the villages he had previously visited, and that both in Labovë and farther north at Saraganishtë [sic for Saraqinishtë] there was a certain amountof pro-Greek feeling (Winnifrith 2002)."


 * "Due to the departures of the filogrek and to the policy of Albanisation undertaken by the Albanian state since its creation, the sense of national belonging in Lunxhëri was, until recently, quite clear: not only are the Lunxhots ethnically and nationally Albanian, as opposed to the Greeks and Vlachs, they are even supposed to be the only true Albanians of the area, as opposed to the Muslims of Labëria who are seen as having abandoned their religion to become ‘Turks’ and, in so doing, have betrayed. The slightest variation from this discourse was suspected of being filogrek. It must be noted that when people leave the question of national identity aside, for instance to tell their family histories, things become much less clear: shifts from one national identity to another are not rare, and they do not seem to be a problem as far as the individual or familial level is concerned. Several families thus acknowledge a Greek origin a few generations ago, others recognise branches that ‘became’ Greek just by crossing the border, and so on. This is for instance the case of an informant from Qestorat, who, although being definitely Albanian as far as national identity is concerned, and very critical vis-à-vis the Greeks, tells the story of his father, arrived from Athens in 1942 and who ‘learned Albanian here, by himself’. In fact, the ‘exclusive Albanianness’ is still dominant as a discourse, emigration and the loosening of state control have brought radical changes in the sense of belonging. To claim a Greek origin or Greek familial connections is not a problem anymore as far as the state is concerned, and it is even considered a positive feature as far as emigration to Greece is concerned. Most of the Lunxhots in Greece present themselves as Northern Epirotes, and any evidence of Greek nationality, kombësi greke, is looked for as a positive feature in the context of migration."


 * First of all then the section in the article is discussing post world war two. You have just identified a gap in the article that has nothing to do with the time period that the section is discussing. As the sentences which you changed read now are:


 * Although the Greek minority had some limited rights, during that period a number of Muslim Cham Albanians, that were expelled from Greece after World War II, were given new homes in the area, diluting the local Greek element.[54] Moreover, during this period a number of new settlements, consisting of Muslim Albanian settlers, were created as a buffer zone between the recognized 'minority zone' and traditionally Orthodox regions of unclear ethnic consciousness


 * So i have not cherry picked. If anything you have reverted the edits because they where precise. Please come up with a sentence about the 1930s. I have given you the section from the book and please consult the book for more. Do not conflate time period in a section which deals in a post World War setting. But good on you for identifying a gap. Also please read the edits i have proposed. They deal precisely with a big gap in the article, (which now you’re even starting to detect, when you actually look at things in depth) that of the Orthodox Albanian speakers and issues pertaining the identity matter. All the best. Resnjari (talk) 15:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


 * You appear to agree that they were "employed by the state and settled there to create a buffer zone" but nevertheless avoid to use this wording. Also this part "recognized 'minority zone' inhabited by ethnic Greeks and Orthodox Albanian speaking regions of unclear ethnic consciousness" in light of the full picture given by De_Rapper (the non-Orthodox Albanian population groups, Helleno-Vlachs, intermariages with ethnic Greeks), although I have some concerns, should slightly change to "recognized Greek 'minority zone' and regions traditionally viewed as Albanian speaking, but of unclear ethnic consciousness".

It's important to add the epithet "traditionally", per De_Rapper's description of local demographics.Alexikoua (talk) 20:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

resettlement policy
As part of this policy of resettlement it appears that Lunxhery wasn't the only case. A peer reviewed thesis of the Panteion University [] offers some detail about this process of Albanization: a few thousands were "employed by the state and settled" (it's called "settlers" in plain English, and "έποικοι" in the thesis written in Greek) in Himara, and new villages were created, like in the case outside of Saranda (pages 213-216).Alexikoua (talk) 08:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Enver created a few villages. Bulo, Asim Zeneli in the area described as a buffer zone. Andon Poci a pure Vlach village up north amongst Muslim villagers. Spile or Spilio in the Himara region. Chams where resettled in three villages around Saranda on the fringe of the Albanian speaking zone. Kallevretakis gives the whole list of new and old villages and their demographic composition. Enver refrained from settling people in Greek speaking villages. Remember what is termed Greek is subject to interpretation. Enver settled the Vlachs in Lunxheri in the 1960s. Today you have a case according to De Rapper of two peoples who think of themselves as Greeks yet loathe each other (the irony). One would assume that the resettlement of the Vlachs in Lunxheri would be of one Greek population coming in to the other. So even the issue of colonization, would we say Enver brought in Greeks (the Vlachs) and settled them in Lunxheri (which the majority population thinks of its self as Greek. Who or what is a colonist in this context? De Rapper wrote in English and this in English Wikipedia. The Greek source goes in and resettlement policy also must go in, but as the author is Greek the word settlers can also be interpreted as POV pushing by some, so be aware of that too. De Rapper who interviewed the Lunxhots found they did not use the word nor did he in his his fieldwork and literature. The rest that you have said i will put into the article about them being state employees. Anyway you say the source uses it for Himara, and that is where the word settlers should be. Come up with a sentence for the Himara area and Saranda area with in line citation (quote villages too. We must be precise as possible.

Resnjari (talk) 12:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to say, if we say that "regions traditionally viewed as Albanian speaking", that is an issue because many travelers and even recent academics passing through the region all state the issue that Lunxheri has been a Albanian speaking region on the basis they encountered the Albanian language. By saying it was viewed, its casting doubt on all those people who came across the Albanian language in region. In the late 19th century as De Rapper discusses, these people were subject to Hellenisation. Due to the Albanian national movement and later upon becoming part of the Albanian state, Nitiskaos says that Orthodox Albanian speakers became confused about their identity, and after WW2 the Albanian government tried to reverse Helenisation with counter Albanianisation (stressing of the Albanian language as a primary factor in identity construction. banning religion etc, etc). Its why in my proposals i try to cater for this process of identity fluidity about the Orhtodox, i also if you have read my proposals proposed a section about the Orthodox Albanians in current times and their identity issues and linguistic shift which is occurring now post communist era, not before. Even when they espoused a Greek identity these populations where still mainly monolingual Albanian speakers, with only thee men and higher part of society knowing Greek. Resnjari (talk) 12:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

For the word "settlers to be used, i am going to need the inline citation/s (as not all can access the source etc, or read Greek and so on). I know this is a nuisance for you to do, but i have done so with my material. This is to offset future POV issues and other farcical matters. All the best. Looking forward to porposals and so on. Also since we are on about the Orthodox, the bits that i have arealy done for the Orthodox Albanain speakers. Should they go or do you need more time to check things. Resnjari (talk) 13:14, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry to tell, but the rest of your proposals are in general a weird product of wp:synth, thus I suggest you reevaluate them and be careful how to interpret the references in order to avoid serious wp:or issues. Off course the amount of the proposed data should be severely trimmed. I believe this isn't a tough job since several proposed parts are recycled over and over (Vlachs paragraph, the so-called fluid identity of the Albanian populations through space and time and the pejorative terminology). Repeating the same info doesn't offer any encyclopedic value.


 * Actually, no. The new section was meant to cater for the post communist era which is different (and much change has occurred in these regions). Those views are recorded from 1992 onwards and are (though the same in a way) but different from earlier ones. The current Albanian state line is that all have no religious differences and so and everyone is peachy pie with each other. However, that is not the case and it is not recycling and borne out in the literature. It shows that those views after all the attempts of the Albanian government to forge a united Albanian identity based being irreligious and Rilindja principles is a facade. And that is needed to clarify this article which talks about the up and down numbers of the Greek minority. A reader at the moment might ask, why do these numbers vary, and who are these Orthodox Albanians? Are they part of these fluctuating numbers and so on (The section is titled "The Northern Epirote issue at present", which is basically inferring that there is an Northern Epirus question. In order for there not to be POV overtones or POV pushing, all communities regarding their identities must be covered, especially if they are calling themselves "Northern Epriote" regarding the present). "Repeating the same info doesn't offer any encyclopedic value." Its not repetition. Its looking at the matter within its time and context. So in that way yes it is repetitious, but different also.Resnjari (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Full version of Dimitropoulos [].Alexikoua (talk) 14:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the source. Come up with a sentence though and do the inline citation for it. All proposals i had in mind, i did the work on, those that you have in mind you come up with the wording and then we work on it. Otherwise its not fair me doing all the work here. It takes a lot of time and energy. All the best. Resnjari (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Zog&LoN
Moreover, in general most parts are just recycling already existing text, for example a proposed addition:

The Albanian government was concerned that within Greek schools, students could be influenced by a majority of teachers who were in favour of the “Pan-Epirot movement. The Albanian state thus was opposed to Greek schools in Albanian-speaking settlements and only allowed them in line with League of Nations agreements within Greek speaking areas in southern Albania.


 * and the existing version:

The Albanian state viewed Greek education as a potential threat to its territorial integrity.[35] Greek schools were either closed or forcibly converted to Albanian schools and teachers were expelled from the country... With the intervention of the League of Nations in 1935, a limited number of schools, and only of those inside the officially recognized zone, were reopened..

It appears that the proposal need to take into account the current version first, in order to avoid repetition. In the above case for example the L. of Nations intervention is already described in detail, while the proposed offers only general views (not to mention that it completely ignores the fact that L.o.N. decisions was against Albania for the elimination of Greek education). I'm looking forward to examine each of your proposals.Alexikoua (talk) 14:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The proposal sentence was in reference to the early mid 20s. I'll need to clarify it as per Clayer. The UN decisions came latter when Zog became more draconian and closed everything down out of spite. Also "integrity" issues does not explain why the Albanian government held those views. "Integrity" can be interpreted many ways as it is now. There is source which clarifies it and i have given it. Sentence then can be reworked but must must include these new elements also. Otherwise the reader will think the Albanian government was doing those things for the sake of doing them, which was not the case and POV pushing an agenda. It had its reasons and they are recorded whether ones agrees with them or not. In the Cham Albanian article we were very concise and also need to be for this article (no selective standards). On certain things, there will be some more explanation due to the nature of certain matters. Resnjari (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Educational rights were limited to a specific minority zone which consisted of a certain number of villages. But in fact no precise educational regulations were ever implemented before LoN's decision 'after' the full ban of Greek education. Also the recognized "minority zone" did not coincide with the Greek-speaking communities, since there were communities outside the zone. For example in the main cities in southern Albanial (Gjir., Saranda, Delvine), without school. Thus, about your proposal, apart from a small part the rest is already in the current version. An updated proposal:

The Albanian state viewed Greek education as a potential threat to its territorial integrity,[35] while most of the teaching staff was considered suspicious and in favour for the Northern Epirus movement. Greek schools were either closed or forcibly converted to Albanian schools and teachers were expelled from the country... With the intervention of the League of Nations in 1935, a limited number of schools, and only of those inside the officially recognized zone (i.e. not all the Greek-speaking communities), were reopened..
 * As for the Cham article, you need to post your concerns there.Alexikoua (talk) 19:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

No, no, the Cham article is excellent. My point is we were very detailed (as i recall you wanted to be detailed on certain points, i on others and was all for it) in how went about the Cham article and the same level of detail regarding certain matters here that are controversial would need to be detailed in order to avoid issues of POV or POV pushing. No selectiveness about being detailed in one article and not the next. Beyond that, all good.Resnjari (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I've read a detailed account about Greek education during the interwar period (Manta's thesis)[], it appears that in the early mid 20s there was no action at all about the issue. About the population outside the recognized zone:

''Πιο συγκεκριμένα, στο προστατευτικό νομικό πλαίσιο της μειονότητας συμπεριλήφθηκαν μόνο οι Έλληνες που κατοικούσαν στις περιφέρειες Αργυροκάστρου και Αγίων Σαράντα και σε τρία από τα χωριά της Χιμάρας (Χιμάρα, ∆ρυμάδες και Παλάσσα), ενώ αποκλείστηκαν αυθαίρετα όσοι κατοικούσαν στην περιοχή της Κορυτσάς και στα υπόλοιπα τέσσερα χωριά της Χιμάρας Βούνο, Πήλιουρι, Κηπαρό και Κούδεσι 18, αλλά και όσοι κατοικούσαν στα μεγάλα αστικά κέντρα της ‘μειονοτικής ζώνης’, δηλαδή στο Αργυρόκαστρο, τους Άγιους Σαράντα και την Πρεμετή, πόλεις με μικτό βέβαια πληθυσμό αλλά εμφανή τον ελληνικό τους χαρακτήρα την εποχή εκείνη. Αυτό πρακτικά σήμαινε ότι για ένα μεγάλο τμήμα του ελληνικού στοιχείου της Αλβανίας δεν αναγνωρίζονταν ούτε τα στοιχειώδη εκείνα δικαιώματα που προέβλεπαν οι διεθνείς συνθήκες, ούτε βέβαια το δικαίωμα της εκπαίδευσης στη μητρική γλώσσα, που κυρίως μας ενδιαφέρει εδώ.''Alexikoua (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * For example there are detailed descriptions how education was banned in the Greek-speaking community of Saranda (p.54):

''Ήδη από τις αρχές του σχολικού έτους 1925-26 ξεκίνησαν οι προσπάθειες για το άνοιγμα ενός σχολείου στους Άγιους Σαράντα, τους οποίους μάλιστα οι ελληνικές αρχές, σε αντίθεση με τις αλβανικές, δεν συγκατέλεγαν μεταξύ των ‘αλβανόφωνων κοινοτήτων’, καθώς ο ελληνικός χαρακτήρας της πόλης ήταν πασιφανής. Σε ό,τι αφορούσε το ελληνικό σχολείο της πόλης, η Επιτροπή επί των Εκπαιδευτικών σχεδίαζε να το οργανώσει σε διδασκαλείο, τοποθετώντας σε αυτό υψηλού επιπέδου και ικανό διδασκαλικό προσωπικό, ώστε να αποτελέσει σημαντικό πόλο έλξης για τα παιδιά της περιοχής, αλλά και παράδειγμα οργάνωσης και λειτουργίας σχολείου και για τις μικρότερες κοινότητες. Τις μεγαλύτερες ελπίδες για την επιτυχία των προσπαθειών της φαίνεται ότι στήριζε η Επιτροπή στην επιμονή του ελληνικού στοιχείου της πόλης, στην πλειοψηφία τους ευκατάστατοι έμποροι που θα ήταν διατεθειμένοι να προσφέρουν ακόμη και το κτίριο για τη λειτουργία του, αλλά και στην παρουσία και τη δραστηριοποίηση εκεί του ελληνικού υποπροξενείου 58. Όλες οι προσπάθειες ωστόσο αποδείχθηκαν μάταιες και ελληνικό κοινοτικό σχολείο δεν λειτούργησε στην πόλη όχι μόνο το σχολικό έτος 1925-26, αλλά ούτε και τα επόμενα χρόνια.''

Thus, it's more than obvious that the ban of education concerned the areas outside the 'minority zone' and not, generally speaking, the non-Greek-speaking settlements. Manta offers also information about the fruitless efforts in Gjirokastra, Permet & Korce. Alexikoua (talk) 20:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with you wholly and you have have identified another gap in the article and the section will require an needed expansion. The first Manta paragraph (giving more details regarding Greek speaking settlements) is in line with Clayer and the second is additional information about the cities and will need a new sentence about the mid 1920s. What i meant was the early 20s with Clayer in an earlier comment. My typo and to many things to attend to (i do these edits after i have worked on my thesis project in the early hours of the morning). By the way this is what Clayer says:


 * Clayer, Nathalie (2012). “Education and the integration of the Province of Gjirokastër in interwar Albania”. In Kera, Gentiana, & Enriketa Pandelejmoni (eds). Albania: family, society and culture in the 20th century. LIT Verlag. p. 98. “Southern Albania, and particularly the Prefecture of Gjirokastër, was a sensitive region from this point of view, since the most wide—spread educational network there at the end of the Ottoman rule was that of the ‘Greek schools’, serving the Orthodox Christian population. Since the Albanian government recognised the rights of minorities as a member of the League of Nations in October 1921, these Greek schools were legalized, but only in Greek-speaking villages, and could continue to function or reopen (those that had been closed during the Italian occupation of 1916-1920). From the point of view of the state, the existence of Greek schools (of varied status and with private or publicly financed teachers)’ represented a problem for the integration of the ‘Greek-speaking minority’ and more generally for the integration of the Orthodox Christians. They were the only non-Albanian schools remaining in the region after Albanian state schools (henceforth for Muslims and Christians alike) had replaced the ‘Ottoman schools’ in Muslim villages and the ‘Greek schools’ in Christian villages, while Aromanian (Kostelanik 1996) and Italian schools had been closed.”


 * Good wording with your proposal: (your bits are in bold, and i added a few sentences in bold and italics):

The Albanian state viewed Greek education as a potential threat to its territorial integrity,[35] while most of the teaching staff was considered suspicious and in favour for the Northern Epirus movement.(Austin source) In October 1921, the Albanian government recognised minority rights and legalised Greek schools only in Greek speaking settlements located within the "recognised minority zone". (Clayer+Manta) 'Within the rest of the country, Greek schools were either closed or forcibly converted to Albanian schools and teachers were expelled from the country. (Clayer + Manta) During the mid 1920s, attempts at opening Greek schools and teacher training collages in urban areas with sizable Greek populations were meet with difficulties which resulted in an absence of urban Greek schools in coming years.' (Manta, 2nd para) With the intervention of the League of Nations in 1935, a limited number of schools, and only of those inside the officially recognized zone (i.e. not all the Greek-speaking communities), were reopened..


 * On a separate note, the bits that i proposed pertaining to Orthodox Albanians (the new section, and a few sentences about their identity issues in prior times (good to go ?). We need this section and other sentences because it is they that form a substantial part of the population in the region and it is they who are the "kingmakers" regarding demographics of being Albanian or Greek of both. They form a large part of the Northern Epirus question. Resnjari (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above proposal is fine to me. I'm going to look into the rest which appear somewhat more complicated.Alexikoua (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Alexikoua, before add the bit, are both paragraphs (that you cited from Manda) on page 54 or just the second one. If the first is from another page, which is it ?Resnjari (talk) 15:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph is from p. 30. As for the 2nd paragraph I've provided, since there are additional detailed stories about the prohibition of Greek education in the rest of the urban centers (Delvina, Gjirokaster, Korce, Premet), Manta offers a summary of this on p. 52:




 * Thank you and its done. Read up on the other material also and additions. All the bestResnjari (talk) 09:54, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for posting the link to the full text of Δημητρόπουλος. It looks like it has a lot of interesting material. One thing: you describe it above as "peer reviewed", which implies that it has been published by an academic journal. But as far as I can tell, it is an unpublished doctoral thesis. Of course, doctoral dissertations have to be accepted by their academic committees, but that is not considered "peer review". --Macrakis (talk) 22:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Though not published in a journal, it is a published thesis available in the digital archive of the University (per policy "Source material must have been published, the definition of which for our purposes is "made available to the public in some form""). Thus, there is no issue about its reliability at all, seeing that the academic committee (Sarris etc.) consists of experts on the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Winnifrith & Nitsiakos
''Two scholars who have spent much time travelling through Southern Albania, Tom Winnifrith in the 1990s and Vassilis Nitsiakos in the 2000s have reached similar conclusions regarding the Orthodox Greek speaking minority in Albania. The Greek minority in Albania is located compactly, within the wider Gjirokastër and Sarandë regions with some villages in the Himarë area amongst some Albanian speaking settlements.[48][49][50] ''

I fail to see why this part can be considered enough for the geographic definition of the Greek speaking area. If in the above districts we have "compact" Greek populations, why the supposed non-compact (or less compact) parts appear to be not worth to mention? At least Winnifrith (who is widely regarded as a most impartial observer [] (p. 2) by neutral scholars) supports the idea than in the 20s the border should have been delinated further north (based on ethnographic criteria) including also Tepelene. Winnifrith also states that in Korce and Berat regions (in and around the city) Greek-speaking communities are also found:


 * p.: 133: “Perhaps the American compromise (i.e. river Vjose) would have been the best solution. It would still have led many Albanian-speakers and some Albanian sympathizers in Greece, and some Greek-speakers and rather more Greek sympathizers in Korce area...''


 * p.: 29: "Berat was the seat of a Greek bishopric... and today Vlach- and even Greek-speakers can be found in the town and the villages near by.Alexikoua (talk) 22:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I wrote it that way because that is the conclusion both scholars have reached regarding people who identify as Ellines and speak and have spoken Greek in the past (and as a mother tongue). Winnifrith is regarded as an impartial observer by some and pro-Greek by others. Within Gjirokaster province, Greeks inhabit the Dropull valley(Frashtan and Lugar have undergone various linguistic/identity shifts during the twentieth century according to Baltsiotis to Greek. Grapsh was Albanian speaking until some point in the 19th century, <Baltsitois) and the Pogoni municipality (except for Selcka, which is Orthodox Albanian speaking). In the Saranda region they inhabit a large number of villages very compactly. (Kallivratkis gives a very detailed analysis of the matter in a peer reviewed publication, compare villages and see them on google maps). The only part that i would add to my sentence which i should have is the two villages (Biovizhda and Vllaho-Psilotere. This last village due to their proximity to each other was combined for administration purposes, so some books say 3 villages sometimes. Nitisakos mentions these villages and devotes a chapter them as he visited them)) of Permet municipality. Two villages of Vlore municipality (Narta and Zvernec, though these fall outside the area defined as Northern Epirus -what do we do with these, add or don't add?) are cited by Winnifrith.


 * Nitsiakos (On the border. 2010.) does state on pp. 129-130 that: The Greek minority of Albania is found in the southern part of the country and it mostly constitutes a compact group of people. Apart from the cities (Gjirokastër, Sarandë), whose population is mixed, the villages of these two areas, which are officially recognized as minority areas, are in the vast majority of their population Greek and their historical presence in this geographical space, has led to an identification of the group with this place.


 * Winnifrith in his book (Badlands, Borderlands. 2002) on pp. 24-25 states: But in spite of the efforts of Greek schools and churches near Vlorë, Berat and Korçë, Greek speech only really exists today in the extreme south-west of Albania near Butrint and along the border as far as Kakavia, in three villages along the coast near Himarë, and in the Drinos valley near Gjirokastër. Even in these areas there are pockets of Albania speech, and almost all Greek-speakers are bilingual. Emigration to Greece has in the past ten years both emptied certain villages and increased the number of Greek-speakers. Pro-Greek feelings may have existed at other opportune times among people who spoke Albanian at home, but were Orthodox in religion and spoke Greek in commercial dealing or at church.


 * So yes, he does cite Greek speakers in Berat, however he does not state if they are part of that group that has been historically and only Greek speaking (or identifying as Greek also) and so o. Both scholars have more or less reached similar conclusions about where the Greek minority resides (in both a historic and linguistic sense). Both scholars are impartial. There is no way that either Nitsiakos or Winnifrith could be labeled pro-Albanian. Thus my sentences deal with the current day position of the minority within the region defined as Northern Epirus. Within the article it states as it stands "According to the 20th century definition, Northern Epirus stretches from the Ceraunian Mountains north of Himara southward to the Greek border, and from the Ionian coast to Lake Prespa." Berat is way north of that line and why i did not include it. If we do include Berat however, how do we define Northern Eprius then, does it go all the way to the Shkumbin river, or do we follow the line of claim by the Greek state since 1912-1913 ? If we define Northern Epirus as being all the way to the Shkumbin river (we would need to cite that and why that is) and more stuff would need to be included. This article states that is about the political/geographical term within the definitions of the 1912-1913 line of claim. Winnifrith allows himself wider scope by encompassing the region as forming a compact geographical-cultural zone that extends to the Shkumbini and wider than just the political concept of Northern Epirus. I was merely following the article's definition of Northern Epirus and based my sentences as such. Regarding the others and their linguistic and identity issues, its why throughout the article i have proposed sentences regarding the Orthodox Albanians and their fluctuating identity issues and about the Vlachs too (a very big gap exists in the article about that).


 * My reworded proposal is thus:


 * Two scholars who have spent much time travelling through Southern Albania, Tom Winnifrith in the 1990s and Vassilis Nitsiakos in the 2000s have reached similar conclusions regarding the Orthodox Greek speaking minority in Albania. The Greek minority in Albania is located compactly, within the wider Gjirokastër and Sarandë regions with some villages in the Himarë area amongst some Albanian speaking settlements and two villages near the border within Përmet municipality.

We can have as an addition to the sentence proposal: '''Outside the area defined as Northern Epirus, two coastal Greek speaking villages exist near Vlore (Narta and Zvernec) and some Greek speakers scattered within the Berat region. Some Greek speakers are also found in the Korça region.''' (Winnifrith source)


 * As for p: 133, of Winnifrith that deals with the post WW1 era, important, though for that section, not for discussing the post communist era or recent times.

Resnjari (talk) 07:59, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I would prefer more simple approach. The fact that a solid zone Greek speech exists in Sarande-Gjirokaster-(+Permet border) is generally accepted, not only by Winnifrith-Nitsiakos. Off course this doesn't mean that Greek speaking settlements in Albania aren't found eslewhere (Vlore, Berat). Why Greek speakers of Korce shouldn't be part of this paragraph? (per Winnifrith p. 133 "some Greek-speakers... in Korce area)Alexikoua (talk) 20:39, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Greek settlements in Berat, i have not come across any in literature. You would definitely need to cite that. There are Vlach and Orthodox Albanian villages around Berat and also Korca that speak Greek and or refer to themselves as Greek. That is different and why i have proposed the sections throughout the article that cater for them regarding such matters. The reason why i have used Winnifrith and Nitsiakos is they unlike others have traveled extensively throughout Southern Albania, whereas others have either done extensive work in a limited areas (Kallivretakis only focuses on the Gjirokaster, Saranda and Himara area.) or citing other research. I have added Korca to the additional sentence.Resnjari (talk) 06:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Some minor but necessary adjustments will be the placement of Korce region within the defined area as Northern Epirus. Also the geographic distribution isn't something accepted only by Nitsiakos-Winnifrith, there are several others that agree in general with this, like Kalivretakis (although he is focused in Saranda-Gjirokaster region), Dimitropoulos & Hammond. In the case of Premet, the exact number of of Greek-speaking villages is debated (Dimitropoulos mentions 5: 2 of them were part of the recognized zone). Thus instead of 'two' it's better not to be precise in the number. A slightly modified proposal:

''The Greek minority in Albania is located compactly, within the wider Gjirokastër and Sarandë regions and in a number of some villages in the Himarë area amongst some Albanian speaking settlements. Greek speaking settlements are also found within Përmet municipality, near the border, and in the Korca region (Winnifrith). Outside the area defined as Northern Epirus, two coastal Greek speaking villages exist near Vlore and some Greek speakers scattered within the Berat region.''Alexikoua (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe the above part is fine for the demographics section.Alexikoua (talk) 16:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

A slight retweeking of the above proposal. Winnifrith not state nor name that there are any Greek speaking villages in the Korca region, just some speakers of Greek, like in the Berat region. Dimitropoulos does give additional settlements as having Greeks in the Permet region. However that does not make them outright Greek settlements. It’s similar to Kallivretakis who lists Orthodox Albanian villages like Lukova, who have small numbers of Greeks there. Zhepa and Dracova fall into that category. And Nitsiakos does points out that Vllaho Psillotere has a few old Muslim Albanian families (pp. 249-263). However that does not make Vllaho-Psilotere a Albanian village on that basis. However the above bit regarding Permet as you have in the sentence is ok. I looked into the Korca, Berat Greek speakers matter and came across a peer reviewed article from the Nationalities Papers journal (Berxholli Arqile, Sejfi Protopapa, & Kristaq Prifti. "The Greek minority in the Albanian Republic: A demographic study." Nationalities Papers. 22. (2). 1994: 427-434. . It gives numbers of Greek speakers in the Berat (49 people, on page 430) and Korca (158 people, on page 430) region and gives the reason for those speakers being in those regions due to internal population movements (employment opportunities and marriage etc):

(p. 430): "Another factor contributing to the lower rate of increase in the Greek minority is the internal movement of the ethnic Greeks. The women who marry non-Greeks outside the minority areas often give up their Greek nationality. The same thing can be said about the ethnic Greeks, especially those with university training, who would be employed outside their villages. In particular, those working in large cities like Tirana very often would not declare their Greek nationality."

(p. 431): "As can be seen from Table I, the preponderant number of Greek nationals, 57,602, live in southern Albania, south of the Shkumbin River. Only 1,156 ethnic Greeks reside outside of this region, principally in the cities of Tirana, Durres and Elbasan. Thus, in southern Albania, with an area of 13,000 square kilometers and a population of 1,377,810, the Greek minority makes up 4.18 percent of the overall population. But the highest concentration of the Greek minority is located in an area of I ,000 square kilometers in the enclaves of Pogon, Dropull and Vurg, specifically, the townships of Lower Dropull, Upper Dropull and Pogon, in the district of Gjirokastra; the townships of Vergo, Finiq, Aliko, Mesopotam and the city of Delvina in the district of Delvina; and the townships of Livadhja, Dhiver and the city of Saranda, in the district of Saranda. This concentration has a total population of 53,986 ethnic Greeks. In turn, these enclaves are within the districts of Gjirokastra, Delvina and Saranda, with an area of 2,234 square kilometers which contains a total of 56,452 ethnic Greeks, or 36.6 percent of the general population of 154,141 in the region."

Now yes you will say, but there are lots of Greek speakers. The mass identity and linguistic shift to Greek has occurred amongst Orthodox Albanians especially in the 2000s and today (i have proposed a series of sentences and a section to cater for that issue). The Greek speakers that Winnifrith encountered deal with mainly these previous internal migratory flows within Albania (and he does not cite all of them, unlike the demographic study). The new Greek speakers are the ones cited by Nitsiakos, Kretsi, Gogonas etc. Thus the section should have a few additional details:

'''The Greek minority in Albania is located compactly, within the wider Gjirokastër and Sarandë regions and in a number of some villages in the Himarë area amongst some Albanian speaking settlements.(Winnifrith, Nitsiakos, Kallivretkis) Greek speaking settlements are also found within Përmet municipality, near the border.(Dimitropoulos + Nitsiakos) Some Greek speakers are also located within the wider Korçë,(Winnifrith) Përmet and Tepelenë regions arising from internal population movements of Greeks within Albania during the communist era.(demographic study article, with inline citation) Outside the area defined as Northern Epirus, two coastal Greek speaking villages exist near Vlorë. (Winnifrith, Dimitropoulos and Hammond -i have a personal copy, i'll find the page number). While, due to internal population movements of Greeks within Albania during the communist era, some Greek speakers are also dispersed within the wider Berat, Durrës, Kavajë, Peqin, Elbasan and Tirana regions.(Winnifrith + demographic study article, with inline citation)'''

Resnjari (talk) 09:42, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually this part: "Some Greek speakers are also located within the wider Korçë,(Winnifrith) ... arising from internal population movements of Greeks within Albania during the communist era.", is in clear disagreement with Winnifrith, who clearly states that Greek speakers were present in the 20s in Korce region, the time of the final delination of the border and of the U.S. proposal Winnifrith describes in this part of his work. Stalinist-era internal movements can be mentioned in the existing paragraph about the regime's resettlement policy.Alexikoua (talk) 14:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * About the figures you present above they coincide with that of the census conducted by the local regime in 1989 (Korce: 158, total 58,758). I fail to see what makes this census reliable since it has been universally rejected as biased by the international historiography, including even pro-Albanian authors such as Pettifer []p. 7:

In contrast, Albanian governments use a much lower figure of 58,000 which rests on the unrevised definition of “minority” adopted during the communist period. Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well.Alexikoua (talk) 15:09, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the assessment regarding the 1989 census. The study however mentions where those Greek speakers where/are within the wider area of southern Albania. Other studies only give vague references, if at all. If we remove the demographic study, then citing the Greek presence in other places would also have to be removed, as it is that one that mentions their widespread location, regardless of the numbers, it still gives numbers, regional localities and reasons for the move. Pettifer offers other reasons. I have made the adjustments as such.:

'''The Greek minority in Albania is located compactly, within the wider Gjirokastër and Sarandë regions and in a number of some villages in the Himarë area amongst some Albanian speaking settlements.(Winnifrith, Nitsiakos, Kallivretkis) Greek speaking settlements are also found within Përmet municipality, near the border.(Dimitropoulos + Nitsiakos) Some Greek speakers are also located within the wider Korçë region.(Winnifrith) Due to forced and non-forced internal population movements of Greeks within Albania during the communist era,(Pettifer) some Greek speakers are also located within the wider Përmet and Tepelenë regions.(demographic study article, with inline citation) Outside the area defined as Northern Epirus, two coastal Greek speaking villages exist near Vlorë. (Winnifrith, Dimitropoulos and Hammond pp.131-132). While, due to forced and non-forced internal population movements of Greeks within Albania during the communist era,(Pettifer) some Greek speakers are also dispersed within the wider Berat,(Winnifrith) Durrës, Kavajë, Peqin, Elbasan and Tirana regions.(demographic study article, with inline citation)''' Resnjari (talk) 05:51, 9 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Fine, it's a go.Alexikoua (talk) 20:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

All done ! Select other bits that you want to discuss from my proposals, or the bits you think are a go. From my angle, the stuff on the Orthodox Albanian speakers regarding these sentences and sections:

During the interwar period, some Orthodox Albanians espousing either pro-Greek sentiments and or with a Greek national consciousness emigrated from Albania and resettled in Greece.[43] Pro-Greek feelings amongst Orthodox Albanians were strong within the region of Gjirokastër.[44]<;ref name= Moskos1977./.> Some Orthodox Albanians who migrated to the Americas during this time also espoused a Greek national consciousness.

During this time, some Orthodox Albanians managed to flee Albania and resettle in Greece where they espoused a Greek national consciousness, while referring to themselves as Arvanites.

Some Orthodox Albanian villages near the Albanian-Greek border were also viewed by the communist regime with suspicion and being Grecophile.

And the section titled: ==.Orthodox Albanians, Albanian Muslims and Vlachs.==

What improvements are needed or are they a go? (See them in whole with inline citations in the above area where i posted them). All the best. Resnjari (talk) 07:16, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


 * No, they are not a "go", because they don't make sense. People that espouse a Greek national identity are Greek, people that espouse an Albanian national identity are Albanian.  There is no such thing as Albanians that espouse a Greek national identity.  It makes no sense. Athenean (talk) 07:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Athenean, in case you have missed out on the intense discussion had in here, there are a few issues with what you say. One people in Albania who call themselves Ellines and speak Greek as a mother tongue are identified by peer reviewed scholars who have done fieldwork in the region as existing within the wider Gjirokaster and Saranda regions and a few settlements in the Himara, Permet and Vlora areas. If you have a issue with that, you can find or email academics such as Winnifrith, Nitsiakos, Kallivretakis, Dimitropoulos and so on and vent your frustrations with them for publishing their data (as according to you they make no "sense" and having those conclusions regarding the matter). "There is no such thing as Albanians that espouse a Greek national identity.'" Athenean, you do realise that you are contradicted by peer reviewed material, much of it by Greek academics themselves. Orthodox Albanians or Orthodox Albanian speakers have been in a state of having either dual national affiliations shifting from one to the other since the middle of the nineteenth century. Please stick to peer reviewed material regarding the matter. When you call into question peer reviewed material, you must provide peer reviewed material that shows why they are wrong. Personal sentiments or beliefs about something making "sense" does not count here unless you have credible data to back yourself up as per wikipedia guidelines and policy.Resnjari (talk) 07:33, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Look regarding Himara there are a sizable cluster of settlements. Yes Kallivretkatis and Nitsiakos does count Old Qeparo, which is separate from bigger Qepraro. There is Spilio also which is mixed. The Albanian government counts Spilio alongside Palasa and Old Qeparo under bigger Qeparo officially. Not all little hamlets are counted on their own. Its why Winnifrith gives a number of 3. He is counting them officially as fully fledged settlements. Not every single hamlet. Its the same with Greece and especially Thesprotia. There are many little hamlets that are not counted in their own right. For example the hamlet of Kodra is attached to the village of Mazarakia. My preference is that within the sentence there is the line "in a few settlements". Athenean objects to that. Greeks do not inhabit all the villages in the Himara area, nor are they compactly next to each other. Every one or two villages is an Albanian speaking one. Greeks are a majority in Palassa, Dhermi and Himara (its two village quarters: Fshat and Shen Mehill). In small settlements they are majority in Upper Qeparo. They also inhabit Spilio which has a lot of Orthodox Albanians and Muslim Albanians also. Orthodox Albanians inhabit Kudhes, Pilur, Lower Qeparo, Illias and Vuno. In settlement terms, Albanians are one more and Greeks one less. If you want we can have 4 then in the sentance. Greeks are a majority in 4 settlements as the sentence also talks about majority (Grreek villages are bigger than the Albanian ones). But there needs to be added clarification. Otherwise as it stands in the article now, it appears that Greeks inhabit the whole of the Himara region which is definitely not the case.Resnjari (talk) 06:51, 11 July 2015 (UTC)


 * In general when a group forms an overall majority in a region this doesn't mean it's the only group there. Either 3 or 4 or 3 1/2 Greek settlements, this goes into too much detail, but if your are eager to add a specific number it's ok ("majority" is enough to mention for me)..Alexikoua (talk) 13:10, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I prefer it that way because the region is a sensitive topic for both sides, more so than the Greek speaking villages that are compact. Its also important too the paragraph wont have both sides saying POV this or POV that. Like i said before for some things in this article, some more detail is better than less, due to the nature of the topic. Better sometimes overdo it than under do it. Anyway, regarding the proposed edits, have a look at them (and other editors too) and offer commentary for more work or discussion or if they are ok to put them in the article.Resnjari (talk) 13:20, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Athenean, don't delete peer reviewed material for reasons like being "irrelevant" again
Athenean

Well i waited and no one bothered to reply regarding all these proposals, so i have now i gone strictly by the policy (e.g. BOLD, revert, discuss cycle). The additions i made are needed in the article to clarify certain matters. One, past and eventual views of the Greek speaking population/state toward Albanian speakers, which ties into identity issues etc, explanation of how the terms Turk and Arvanites were used. As it already states in the article that Albanians were called Turks and because Wikipedia says it does not promote racism, clarification is needed. Also, the region is part of Albania and the article states clearly that Greeks are found in the southern Gjirokaster/ Saranda and Himara regions. Yet the article talks about the Northern Epirus region encompassing the Permet, Kolonja, Korca and Devoll regions. Who resides there and what role did those populations play regarding the Northern Epirus issue? How are these issues as you say "not again with the massive irrelevant additions, please stop this" irrelevant? Northern Epirus is both a political concept borne after Albania's independence and a geographical term that is intertwined with Southern Albania (as Winnifrith pointed out). There is little in the article, if at all about Orthodox Albanians and their identity issues (yet the literature talks about that as being fundamental to the Northern Eprius subject matter and question). I am catering to that with peer reviewed material (by Greek academics too). The rest of my peer reviewed edits have languished long enough anyway. Like i said on the Administrators board, you can not block edits for the sake of some information being uncomfortable to you. Wikipedia does not work that way. I remind all that all sources used are peer reviewed and where possible i have placed online web links for all to check and read themselves.Resnjari (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * You're just not getting it. Just because something it sourced, doesn't mean it's relevant.  Please familiarize yourself with WP:RELEVANT.  The stuff about the τουρκαλβανοι being a pejorative term is completely off-topic with regards to this article.  Your other additions, while more relevant are WP:COPYVIO violations, which can get you in a lot of trouble.  I will refer them to the COPYVIO noticeboard, but the rest is out. Athenean (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Your not getting it. There are numerous issues with this article that wither it does not discuss or has POV racism issues. Fine about the Tourkoalvanoi stuff, however not fine about the word Turk on its own. It already states in the article "while all Muslims (including Muslim Albanians) were considered "Turks"." Why were they called Turks. Yes it is due to the millet system. But during the nineteenth century the word Turks also had acquired pejorative connotations towards Balkan Muslims and Albanians too (a time period which the article talks about). That needs to be covered, otherwise it is POV pushing and racist as Wikipedia states it does not promote racism. Many of you may not realise the gravity of that word, but i am pointing it out, the same way as peer reviewed literature has too.Resnjari (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above proposals face serious issues as already noted (especially cherry picking & undue). However, I can name one by one the problematic issues in detail for every proposed line. Especially the obsession to repeat the pejorative terminology (and how this developed through space and time) is completely undue.Alexikoua (talk) 20:26, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Cherry picking is your interpretation. There is nothing in the article that caters to the issues of Orthodox Albanian speakers and the issue of Northern Epirus, yet as the literature points out they formed to a large degree a significant element to those matters. The region is after all also in Albania, and the article stipulates that Greek lives in the Gjrokaster, Saranda and Himara regions. What about people who lived in the other regions and their impact upon Northern Epirus ? "Especially the obsession to repeat the pejorative terminology (and how this developed through space and time) is completely undue." Not so. Peer reviewed material specifically states that the word Turk acquired pejorative connotation from the middle of the nineteenth century onwards. My additions dealt with that matter in the area discussing that time period. It must be noted that the word Turk had additional meaning otherwise the article is promoting racism. Turk was a millet word and a word that had other connotations regarding Albanians.Resnjari (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * For example this addition [] is unacceptable since the reference deals with both Greek&Albanian speakers (of Greek consciousness). For an unexplained reason Resnjari mentions only the Albanian speaking element.Alexikoua (talk) 20:37, 23 July 2015 (UTC)'

I only concentrated on the Albanian element and as Athenean has done, he expanded upon it. I have no qualms about that as i stated on his talk page. I case everyone missed it, i did place all my edits in the proposed edits section of the talk page. Its been many weeks now and no one bothered to comment. How long was i going to wait ? Anyway i preferred to go about it through good will by making those proposals and waiting for everyone to read them and make comment. No one did. Well, now i went by the policy BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and things are finally being discussed.Resnjari (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * In the same edit [] the addition "Some Orthodox Albanian villages near the Albanian-Greek border were also viewed by the communist regime with suspicion and of having pro-Greek sentiments" in fact deals with one village. This can't be taken as a representative view for the entire region. Seems we have clear wp:synth and wp:or.Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Look, Enver, viewed numerous villages with suspicion. If you want to add De Rapper regarding Lunxheri, that is fine. Enver did establish a buffer zone after all. He viewed Orthodox Albanian speaking population in the region with suspicion. Why the buffer zone otherwise. De Rapper says as such and Kretsi gives an example to that effect.Resnjari (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The fact is that this reference deals with one village. However, the concept of the buffer zone is already stated (Lunxheri). Thus I don't see a reason to recycle the same info.Alexikoua (talk) 21:56, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * We already have settlements of "unclear ethnic consciousness," and we end up with settlements "viewed with suspicion and of having pro-Greek sentiments.". Something is repeating right?Alexikoua (talk) 22:01, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah ok. The sentence can be changed slightly then to something like. Certain Orthodox Albanian villages along the Albanian-Greek border were also viewed by the communist regime with suspicion due to having pro-Greek sentiments.


 * I understand its one village, however Kretsi devotes a whole study to the matter. Mursi was targeted because of that very issue and Kretsi devotes the bulk of her fieldwork and thus most of the book chapter to the issue. There is little in Albanian literature regarding this and in Greek literature it mainly deals with Greek speaking villages of the Gjirokaster/Saranda and Himara regions and their issues with the regime. This need to be added into the article due to an absence of it in other literature on the matter.Resnjari (talk) 22:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Per Kalivretakis, Mursi is a mixed village (Al. Christians, Muslims and Greeks). Moreover, does somewhere Kretsi claim that the case of Mursi was not an isolated one? The current part "certain villages..." means exactly this.Alexikoua (talk) 09:41, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Its mixed, however it is a village with an Albanian Orthodox plurality (Like Vlaho-Psillotere which has a few old Muslim Albanian familes [3] is a mixed village with a Greek plurality). Some Albanian Muslims from nearby villages came during Enver's era (Mursi was agricultural centre in the area) and some Greeks are there due to intermarriage from neighboring Greek villages. Kretsi does not claim this for other villages as she only chosse Mursi. However how do we cater for it as a sentence in the article. It is a important study regarding those matters. Could we have something then like There was also the example of the Orthodox Albanian settlement Mursi.Resnjari (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2015 (UTC)