Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 6

Post 1992 -Orthodox Albanians etc section proposal
Ok i added the orphaned sentence to a section which is needed for the article to explanation the current day situation amongst the other population groups that inhabit the region as defined in the article. Their concepts of identity and/or fluidity are important for the reader understanding the post 1992 situation. Read the inlines in whole, come up with sentences if you feel parts of this need to be contracted etc or expanded.Resnjari (talk) 01:23, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

==.Orthodox Albanians, Albanian Muslims and Vlachs.==
 * For an unexplained reason the head includes all population groups apart from Greeks, who are primarily associated with the use of the term. I don’t know if the following text will be placed as a separate section, but this title needs to change for a neutral representation of Northern Epirus.Alexikoua (talk) 20:21, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It is a momentary working title with no definite implications. After the section and wording to it are resolved, this title stuff can discussed as well to reflect the content.Resnjari (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

'''Throughout the duration of the Communist regime, national Albanian identity was constructed as being irreligious and based upon a common unitary Albanian nationality. This widely spread ideal is still present, though it is challenged by religious differentiation between Muslims and Christians which exists at a local level.


 * I fail to see the importance of the above addition: In fact it’s nothing that deals with N.E. exclusively. Nevertheless all necessary info about atheist communist era and modern religious freedom is already mentioned.Alexikoua (talk) 20:21, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless I won't disagree if we follow exactly what's stated in the inline: A dogma of national unity against religious heterogeneity is part of a common Albanian national rhetoric. (then follows bellow part about Orthodox consiparcy theories).Alexikoua (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The first sentence regarding communism and identity i thought is needed in the article, as it was under communism that Albanian identity amongst Albanian speakers was constructed as transcending religious differences and espoused at a national level. And Albanian speakers of both religions are a significant population in the region defined within this article. So far there is nothing in the Northern Epirus article about this. A addition to the first sentence after the words: national Albanian identity amongst Albanian speakers, to clarify that point. Its also need as this sentences and and or section will be overall about Albanian speakers. (Note:Two sources and inlines will be provided for this next week from two books that i will access at university).


 * So what happened during the communist era is important and has implications for the conclusions that De Rapper in his fieldwork related much later (and other scholars) in a post-communist environment about identity etc. The whole paragraph of De Rapper that i based the sentence on was a summary of what he said that encompasses his analysis. Full inline is at on document page 3 (note i have access to the book so i placed the proper page number where is document is located at. De Rapper after publishing in a book, often then puts his stuff out for free and its a copy that has no page numbers):


 * "It is common in Albania to say that all Albanians, whether Christian or Muslim, are brothers, and that their only religion is their common Albanian nationality. The dogma of national unity as against religious differentiation is at the core of the most widely-spread Albanian national rhetoric. However, this rhetoric is challenged when local society is underpinned by, and conceptualised in terms of, religious differentiation. This is the case in mixed areas, where Muslims and Christians live in separate villages (or in separate neighbourhoods), and both have strong identities as religious communities – as in Devoll. In this specific context, religion cannot consist of just being Albanian. On the contrary, people are very well aware of their belonging to a specific religious community, and national identity is rarely thought of outside the basic opposition between Muslims and Christians. For instance, both Muslims and Christians claim a Christian origin for the whole nation, and Christians enjoy a higher prestige as representatives of the ‘real’ or ‘authentic’ Albanian nation. Although many declare that religion does not matter, the way people talk and behave inside local society clearly shows that they have to be Christian or Muslim in order to be Albanian, and that it is better to be Christian than Muslim."


 * Also, place a sentence proposal here for the dogma stuff so we can work on it.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Hence within the post-communist era, amongst Orthodox Albanians there are varying views regarding their identity and their relationship with Muslim Albanians, Greeks and Greece. With the fall of communism and migration to Greece there has been a tendency amongst a majority of Orthodox Albanians to identify as “Northern Epirote” which is understood to be synonymous with Greek identity.


 * This part is fine, but needs the following addition for a distinction among all Orthodox communities in Albania today: A general public view in Albania labels all local Orthodox people, irrespective of ethnicity, as potentially "unfaithful" to the Albanian nation, and linked with conspiracy scenarios in favor of Greek expansion. Since we are talking about Orthodox vs Muslim, the Aromanian pro-Greek claims below should be placed next to this part.Alexikoua (talk) 20:21, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, ok sounds good. Also, place a sentence proposal here for the unfaithful stuff so we can work on it.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Apart from identifying as Shqiptarë or Albanians, they also use as self-appellations the terms Arvanitë (a word also used by Orthodox Albanophones in Greece), Minoritarë (a word meaning minority used in Albania as a synonym for the Greek minority) or even Grekoman (meaning a person with Grecophile sentiments).


 * I fail to see how the cases of Devol, Lunxheri, Mursi are considered a general reality for all such communities in N.E. In fact no author claims that this is a general rule, not to mention that all 3 regions/villages are only a small fraction of N.E. and they self-identify under different names.Alexikoua (talk) 20:21, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I added this because these are self appellations that there recorded by scholars conducting fieldwork. These terms are not used as a general rule, though they have been noted as being used. Some kind of addition (or follow on) to the Northern Epirote sentence of identification would be needed. For example something like: Other terms also noted and used by some Orthodox Albanians for themselves are Minoritarë (a word meaning minority used in Albania as a synonym for the Greek minority), Grekoman (meaning a person with pro-Greek sentiments) and also Arvanitë (a word also used by Orthodox Albanophones in Greece). This is needed as it relates to issues of identity affiliations/fluidity and terminology around it.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

In Albania, many Orthodox Albanians often stress that they have Greek origins and some have tried unsuccessfully to change their names into Greek forms.


 * You don’t believe that the claim of one individual is a general fact in N.E.? The author doesn’t claim that anyway.Alexikoua (talk) 20:35, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Nitsiakos gives a more generalised analysis on page 315 regarding claims of Greek origins. Next week i will have the inline when i go to uni. The whole page is not coming up on google books. Some shortening of the sentence then for it to end at Greek origins and leave out the name change stuff.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

When in Greece, some Orthodox Albanians are members of Northern Epirote associations that advocate for Greek interests and rights in Albania. Some Orthodox Albanians also advocate for wider recognition of the Greek minority zone to encompass their settlements as they feel they are Greek.
 * Quite reasonable since we already mentioned above that “a majority of Orthodox Albanians to identify as “Northern Epirote” which is understood to be synonymous with Greek identity”. Also note that the cases here are about one individual (Petros) and one village (Mursi), not about the population in general. Thus, it doesn’t reflect the reality in the region in general.Alexikoua (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that's why i went with "some". I do think we need to mention this. I am not sure about what how you would change the wording of the sentence, but whatever number of Orthodox Albanians, it has been noted that they have been active in these organisations. If you know of any wp:reliable and wp:secondary that could expand on the matter that would be good (Greek source or other).Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Amongst the wider Albanian population and some in the Albanian Orthodox community hold the view that individuals claiming Greek identity are doing so to access benefits of Greek citizenship such as jobs, education and old age pensions.
 * I fail to see how the “newcomers” in Himara per Gregoric can become “the wider Albanian population”. Also per remaining references (Kretsi, Nitsiakos) the cases of Zepo and Mursi aren’t mentioned as representative ones in N.E., in fact the population of 2+ villages mentioned is a very tiny fraction of the entire population of NE.20:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok instead of wider Albanian population, it can say "Amongst parts of the Albanian population" and the scrapping of "and some in the Albanian Orthodox community". Just because some people in Himara are "newcomers" does not mean that they are not representative of such views of parts of the Albanian population. Also Kretsi has this to say:


 * "La grande majorité des Albanaises et des Albanais qui immigrent en Grèce adopte un prénom grec-orthodoxe. Les Albanaises et les Albanais musulmans renient leur appartenance religieuse2 et se déclarent chrétiens orthodoxes. Les opinions publiques grecque et albanaise n'ignorent pas ces pratiques. Du côté grec, ce processus est considéré comme positif pour la préservation de l'homogénéité culturelle du pays. Du côté albanais, il s'agit d'une stratégie éprouvée pour s'intégrer dans un environnement nouveau de la manière la plus discrète possible. Pourtant, l'utilisation de différents prénoms et le traitement apparemment désinvolte du prénom reçu à la naissance apparaissent comme déroutants ou incompréhensibles aux yeux des observateurs extérieurs. [The majority of Albanians and Albanians immigrating to Greece adopts a Greek Orthodox name. The Albanian and Muslim Albanians deny their affiliation and declare thier religion Orthodox Christians. The Greek and Albanian public opinion did not ignore these practices. On the Greek side, the process is considered positive for the preservation of the cultural homogeneity of the country. The Albanian side, it is a proven strategy to fit into a new environment in the most discreet way possible. However, the use of different names and apparently casual treatment of the first name received at birth appear confusing or incomprehensible in the eyes of outside observers.]


 * "L'entrée dans un univers étranger déclenche une sorte de réaction en chaîne. Le changement de prénom et de religion doit être considéré comme une réaction au passage dans un univers nouveau, en particulier parce que l'“exode” albanais vers la Grèce (1990/1991) s'est réalisée “à travers champs” et que les gens étaient confrontés aux risques de la clandestinité. L'impression que les immigrantes et les immigrants de souche grecque sont mieux accueillis alors que les musulmans se heurtent à de la méfiance s'avère exacte dans bien des cas. C'est ainsi que de nombreux Albanaises et Albanais se sont faits baptiser, certains à la demande de leur employeur, d'autres afin de gagner à travers le parrainage les amitiés et les soutiens sociaux leur permettant de prendre pied dans la société grecque. [The entry into a foreign universe triggers a kind of chain reaction. The change of name and religion should be seen as a reaction to transition into a new world, especially because the "exodus" of Albania to Greece (1990/1991) was achieved "across country" and that the People were confronted with the risk of hiding. The impression that immigrant and ethnic Greek immigrants are more welcome while Muslims face of suspicion proves true in many cases. Thus many Albanians and Albanians were baptized, some at the request of their employer, others in order to gain sponsorship through friendships and social supports to enable them to gain a foothold in the Greek society.]"


 * "Le changement de prénom ne s'est toutefois pas limité à la vie quotidienne en contexte migratoire, mais a aussi été pratiqué en Albanie. La déliquescence de l'appareil administratif, la corruption de l'administration et la destruction d'une grande partie des registres civils qui ont accompagné la période des changements politiques en Albanie ont facilité ces changements de prénom légaux ou illégaux. Après les changements politiques s'est développée dans les institutions albanaises une vaste activité de falsification de documents officiels. La finalité de ces falsifications était, dans le cas des migrantes et des migrants vers la Grèce, de se présenter au consulat de Grèce avec de nouveaux documents et d'avoir ainsi une plus grande chance d'obtenir un visa. Car les chances d'obtention d'un visa augmentaient dès que l'on pouvait prouver son origine grecque et sa foi chrétienne orthodoxe. En Grèce également, le “passeport nord-épirote”3 était utile. Le nouveau passeport représentait une protection potentielle pour les migrants, dont une grande partie séjournait en Grèce de manière semi-clandestine et travaillait souvent au noir. S'ils pouvaient prouver leur origine grecque de manière suffisamment convaincante, il y avait une chance qu'ils échappent à l'expulsion. [The first name change, however, was not limited to the daily life in a migratory context, but was also practiced in Albania. The decay of the administrative machinery, corruption of the administration and the destruction of much of the civil registers that accompanied the period of political changes in Albania have facilitated these changes in legal or illegal name. After the political changes developed in the Albanian institutions a broad activity of forgery of official documents. The purpose of these forgeries was, in the case of migrants and migrants to Greece to submit to the Greek Consulate with new documents and thus have a greater chance of getting a visa. Because the chances of obtaining a visa soon increased that could prove his Greek origin and Orthodox Christian faith. In Greece, too, the "North Epirus passport" was useful. The new passport represents a potential protection for migrants, much of which was staying in Greece semi-clandestine manner and often worked in black. If they could prove their Greek so compelling enough, there was a chance they escape deportation.]"


 * "Les pressions assimilationnistes auxquelles les migrantes et les migrants étaient et sont soumis en Grèce ont peu à peu suscité un intérêt scientifique croissant4. Pourtant, trop peu d'attention a jusqu'à présent été accordée à l'impact du changement de prénom décidé par les immigrés sur leurs choix et sur leurs vécus identitaires. La question se pose donc de savoir si l'adoption d'un prénom nouvellement “acquis” – au sens bureaucratique – va de pair avec l'apparition d'un “nouveau” mode d'identification sociale et/ou nationale, et comment ce “nouveau” mode d'identification doit être compris dans son rapport à l'“ancien”.[The assimilationist pressures migrants and migrants were in Greece and are subject gradually croissant4 aroused scientific interest. Yet too little attention has so far been paid to the impact of the change of name decided by immigrants on their choices and experiences on their identity. The question therefore arises as to whether the adoption of a new name "acquis" - the bureaucratic sense - is accompanied by the appearance of a "new" social identification mode and/or national level, and how this "new" mode of identification must be understood in relation to the "old"."


 * "Si l'on regarde l'itinéraire migratoire de chacune et de chacun, on s'aperçoit que le passage dans l'illégalité a pratiquement commencé dès les procédures de demande de visa ou dès la fuite. Il est donc légitime pour eux de prendre leur distance à l'égard du groupe albanais et de devenir chrétien orthodoxe ou “Épirotes du nord”. [If we look at the migration route of each and everyone, we see that the passage illegally practically started from the procedures of visa application or when the leak. It is therefore legitimate for them to take their distance with regard to the Albanian group and become Orthodox Christian or "northern Epirote".]"


 * For more See: Georgina Kretsi, ‘Shkëlzen ou Giannis? Changement de prénom et stratégies identitaires, entre culture d'origine et migration [Shkëlzen or Giannis? Change of Name and Identity strategies, between Culture of Origin and Migration]’, Balkanologie IX, Vol.1, No.2, 2005.


 * Probabaly some retweeking of the sentance will be needed.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Albanian Muslims have also engaged in claiming a Greek identity, though their change regarding ethnic or religious identity is mainly viewed as superficial to access the Greek labour market and Greek citizenship. '''
 * The case of one individual or even a number of individuals doesn’t necessary reflect the situation in the entire region. The article is named Northern Epirus, not Leonidao nether Leonidao’s village.Alexikoua (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Instead of Nitisiakos here, replace it with Kretsi's French article with inlines giving a better analysis and overview of this matter.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't find from Kretsi if the above Muslim communities are Muslims from N.E. or in general Albanian Muslim immigrants in Greece originating from all over Albania. If they are immigrants from all over Albania that tried to change their identity in Greece it's hardly related with N.E... Alexikoua (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Kretsi did her fieldwork amongst people from villages such as Fterra and Corraj(and people from such settlements in Greece) etc which are within the area defined as Northern Epirus by Greeks. You can read the article in whole and she goes on about name issues in detail. I only got the paragraphs that give a summed up analysis. Anyway, her fieldwork relates to the subject matter of this article about identity issues amongst a population group who is significant in the area. So its applicable here.Resnjari (talk) 03:28, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Then we have a serious issue of not being a representative sample of the region in question, the same with Nitsiakos. Does she specifically point that this is a general trend amongst Muslim from N.E../southern Albnania?Alexikoua (talk) 06:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

'''Within areas where Orthodox Albanians live in close proximity to Orthodox Greek speaking populations in southern Albania, there has been a tendency to vote for Greek political parties.
 * The precise quote implies that the role of “the Orthodox Albanians is crucial for the election of candidates from the minority”, as in the case of Saranda. Thus since it was the last time a Greek mayor was elected in Saranda there is a strong indication that the role of the said communities isn’t crucial any more: they don't support the Greek minority parties. Not to mention that Kallivretakis deals with a limited period of democratic restoration (91-95), thus his info is by far outdated in the case of political tendencies in democratic Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * You make a good point about it occurring sometimes back. Though its not crucial anymore, having Kallivretakis in there is important due to him undertaking fieldwork in the area and noting this political occurrence at that point in time. It was right after communism's fall and a important piece of information showing the Greek outlook in a political sense of Orthodox Albanians in the area gives the reader insight about the matter of political affiliations. Instead a addition to the sentence: in the early 1990s there was a tendency to vote for Greek political parties in the Saranda region. Your thoughts ?Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Other Orthodox Albanians living in various parts of Southern Albania have also displayed political sentiments and or support toward Greek political parties in Albania.


 * I fail to see how Orthodox Albanians near the boder "displayed political sentiments and or support toward Greek political parties" per De Rapper, they expressed a "fear" about the Devoliotes. This "fear" about the election became reality? Election results say no. (full quote: They were also the first ones, when the borders opened, to cross over and visit the Greek villages, before migrants from other parts of the country began to arrive. In that way, people from Devoll believe that they have special and stronger ties with the Greek population, and they sometimes feel closer to Greece than to the rest of Albania, especially when they compare themselves to the Northerners. Before the parliamentary elections of May 1996, Albanian Christians who live close to the border with Greece were sure that all the Devoll, Christians and Muslims together, would vote for the Human Rights Party, close to Greek interests in Albania, because of their links with Greece. “Just look at them, says one, they have all been to Greece at least once, soon, they will all speak the language. The Greek claims over Northern Epirus do not bother them; they will stop being Albanian and they do not care. They think it is better to change the borderline and to live like Greeks rather than to survive like Albanians.”". Nitsiakos doesn't claim that involvement of Josif is a general rule (on the other hand declaring himself Northern Epirote is).Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, leave this bit out then.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Older generations of Orthodox Albanians are mainly monolingual Albanian speakers.


 * Older generations in Vuno are Albanian monolinguals I agree, that's about Vuno & can't see how it reflects general demographics in N.E..Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, leave this bit out too.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Due to migration in recent decades, many middle aged Orthodox Albanians have become bilingual, while amongst the young knowledge of Albanian is passive and many are monolingual Greek speakers. Vassilis. On the border. 2010. pp. 161-162. “Inside the church there are a few people, mainly women and children. At the chanter-stand Hristos from Kosinë and two girls of the same age are chanting. I detect the same awkwardness as always when I happen to attend a liturgy in Albania. While the young chanters are doing fine, playing their role with considerable ease, the rest of the congregation look as if they have adjusted neither to the principles nor of the practices of partaking in the ritual. The priest himself puts special effort to officiate properly; however, he is betrayed by the lack of both collective tradition and personal experience. Also evident is the imitation of Greek ways and the strain to adjust certain things to the Albanian language. We should not forget that the establishment of Albanian as the language of the church service occurred only after many difficulties and struggles of the Albanian orthodox, and only at the turn of the 20th century, which means it has not lasted more than half a century, since Hoxha imposed atheism, forbade the practice of religious tasks, and shut down the temples altogether. Children also partake in the service; it seems that most of them are children living in Greece who have come to spend the summer holidays in their homeland. They stand apart both because of their dress and their manners. They also seem quite used to the formalities of worship and their general comportment reveals considerable ease, which differentiates them from the rest of the congregation. The presence of children like these, who live with their parents in Greece, is very strong in both the cities and the villages. It is very common to hear children playing and speaking in Greek. In fact, as soon as they realise we are Greeks they rush to greet us and talk to us, their joy evident for doing so. Through these kids, as well as through the migrants who are here for various reasons, the presence of Greece is strongly felt.” p. 352. "The forty year old man sitting opposite me is Haris, and next to him is his ten year-old-son Dimitris. They come from the Lunxhëri villages. Haris presents himself as a Greek, too, and he speaks proudly about the past in his village, its churches, schools, life In Greece and Istanbul: the same old stereotypical images. The assertion of a Greek origin and identity takes centre stage. The man’s son sounds fanatical about Greece; he even wears a wristband with the Greek flag. His Greek is flawless and he has the typical manners of a Greek child or urban areas. His father says that the son does not speak Albanian well, but he himself does not mind at all. He and his wife speak both languages at home now; they have been in Greece for fifteen years."; pp. 179-180. “Soon their children come over to greet us. Elia’s two children are perfectly “hellenised”. Their manners and their way of speaking remind me strongly of my own childhood. His son, Dimitris, sits with us for quite a while. He tells us that while they do speak the Albanian language they do not know how to write it…. At the table of young members of the family, one rarely hears Albanian phrases; the main language of conversation is Greek. Even their parents address their children in Greek… I ask about that and the answer I get is that they use both languages at home. In fact, they tell me that, while the parents speak between them in Albanian, they tend to speak to their children mostly in Greek.”; p. 466.
 * I can’t see from Nitsiakos’ quote what makes Hristos an Orthodox Albanian (I assume being from Kosine doesn't make him de facto Orthodox Albanian, unless the author claims something more specific about Hristos). Same with the rest of the people mentioned. On the other hand Gogonas deals with Albanian immigrants (irrespective of religion) in Greece not with people that finally returned back to Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 11:50, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, leave this bit out too.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

In the 1990s, Greece favoured Orthodox Albanian politicians as they were seen as being friendlier to their interests.
 * I fail to see how support to Nano can be part of this article. The proposed text assumes that Nano's example was a general rule in Greek politics something that's not in agreement with the inline quote. It might be a good addition for "Greek-Albanian relations" though.Alexikoua (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It hadn't occurred to me. Ok, this bit to be added for that article instead. Leave out of this one.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Relations with Muslim Albanians vary and are often distant as Orthodox Albanians and Albanian Muslims live in separate villages and or neighbourhoods, while national identity is rarely constructed outside the binary opposition of Muslim and Christian.


 * Good addition to be placed next to the part cited by Todorova: "Relation even between Muslim and Orthodox Albanians vary and are often distant, while a common national natinoal identiy is rarely constructed outside this binary opposition."Alexikoua (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok agreed.

Some Orthodox Albanians perceive Albanian Muslims as a majority group oppressing Albanian Christians and being responsible for past destruction and troubles within Albania. Also the past dictatorship and its ideology of communism is viewed by some Orthodox Albanians as being synonymous with Islam, due in part to Enver Hoxha's Muslim heritage and the communist regime's aversion to religion. '''
 * It seems that this simply overemphasizes the differences between groups XY and XZ, which is stated above. I fail to see the what's essential about this addition, not to mention that this opinions are adopted by some Orthodox Albanians from Lunxhery, a small fraction of the region in question.21:47, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, leave this bit out too.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

'''Whereas close relations exist amongst Orthodox Albanians who live in proximity to Orthodox Greek speaking settlements and Greeks in Albania regard them as "relatives".
 * Again the pro-Greek concept is recycled, with the abstract conclusion that both groups are "relatives".Alexikoua (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Not pro-Greek concept.You make a good point about the sentence being repetitive. Though an important part is not and can be placed as an addition to another sentence. Nitsiakos did note that Orthodox Albanians expressed feelings of closeness toward Greeks in in indidivual contexts but a a general view amongst Orthodox Albanians he encountered over and over again. One can not get more closer than calling someone a relative. I would say in this instance then. I would say scrapping this sentence, but taking this inline and making an addition to the sentence about Greek political parties after the words southern Albania while expressions and sentiments of closeness to Greeks have also been noted.


 * The new sentences would look something like this:


 * 'Within areas where Orthodox Albanians live in close proximity to Orthodox Greek speaking populations in southern Albania, expressions and sentiments of closeness to Greeks have been noted. While in the early 1990s there was a tendency to vote for Greek political parties in the Saranda region.


 * Your thoughts ?Resnjari (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Terminology should be consistent. Either "Orthodox Albanians" and "Greeks", or "Orthodox Albanian-speaker" and "Orthodox Greek-speakers". Athenean (talk) 05:56, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I understand where your coming from as i have had those thoughts too. As the nature of this topic is complicated, first lets sort out the sentences and content, inlines and so on. Then the terminology stuff. With terminology though, it depends also at what point in time can Orthodox Albanians could be used instead of Orthodox Albanian speakers etc due to identity formations and affiliations of the late 19th century and inclusion in the Albanian state and also similar issues emerging after a post 1992 environment. Anyway, for me anyway its best to focus on the content and sources first regarding wording of sentences and from there some kind of determination can be made about terminology later. Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

 Various pejoratives are in use today for the population groups in Northern Epirus, some of them are based on the Ottoman system of classification (Turk, Turco-Albanians for Muslim Albanians, Kaur/infidel, Kaur i derit/non-beliver pigs, for Greeks, Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs) (Gregoric+Nitsiakos) Muslim Albanians often refer to Orthodox Albanians as “Greeks” and attribute to them pro-Greek sentiments. '''
 * Ok, as already agreed.Alexikoua (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

'''With the fall of communism, the Vlach community in Albania formed various associations aimed at revitalising their language and culture that are affiliated to either a pro-Greek and or pro-Romanian position. Vlachs that belong to the pro-Greek faction are either supportive of or active in Greek political parties within Albania. These Vlachs self ascribe themselves as "Helleno-Vlachs" or Greek-Vlachs and espouse the Greek view regarding origins as being romanised Greeks.


 * First part is fine. However, a more recent research about intra-Vlach divisions stated that: ‘Perceived Co-Ethnics’ and Kin-State Citizenship in Southeastern Europe, Dejan Stjepanović: p. 17: "The existing political divisions among Aromanian Vlach population in Albania could be generally covered by the three most visible political identification tendencies and relevant manifestations thereof. The pro-Greek and Vlach-only, which form a vast majority and occasionally overlap in some respects and the pro-Romanian, the latter being by far the less numerous option.". So, the first part would be better:


 * (With the fall of communism) the vast majority of the Aromanian population in Albania is affiliated to either a pro-Greek position or is in favor of a distinct Aromanian identity, while both of these tendencies overlap in some respects.(Stepanovic p. 17) (The rest about the formation of associations and revitalising culture is a general trend of the transition to democracy not a distinct Aromanian feature).
 * The second part about politics would be better to be merged with the Albanian speakers above: "In post-1991 politics there is a tendency by Orthodox Albanian speakers (Nitsiakos?) and Aromanians (Schawdner) to support parties of the Greek minority. Aromanians have been also active in such initiatives.
 * The last part doesn't offer much, in fact "the Greek origin" theory isn't a distinct feature shared among Albanian-Aromanians, it's just part of the pro-Greek Aromanian ideology regardless where the community lives.Alexikoua (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

There are views in Albania that some of these Vlachs who have adopted a Greek identity have done so to access benefits of Greek citizenship such as jobs, education and old age pensions. Vlachs are deeply fond of Greeks and Greece and view Orthodox Albanians as "their own people". '''


 * why "in Albania?". Also what does "my own people mean"? perhaps they share a common ancestry? Same question about "relatives" for the Albanian speakers, guess it means they are Greek sympathizers (i.e. pro-Greek).Alexikoua (talk) 22:57, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

General issues

 * I have an issue with the use of the term "Orthodox Albanians". This is a term used here to describe Orthodox Christian Albanian speakers of uncertain national identification, but by calling these people "Albanian" it automatically makes them appear having an Albanian national identity, which in many cases is simply not true.  Many of these people do not identify as Albanian, so it would be quite inaccurate to refer to them as such.  Furthermore, when talking about the younger generations, we end up describing as "Orthodox Albanian" people who live in Greece, have Greek citizenship, are pro-Greece in outlook, speak Greek and do not identify as Albanian.  Most importantly, this term is only used by a minority of sources quoted here.  I would prefer if we used another term instead. I am also concerned with length, relevance, and repetition.  How about "Orthodox Albanian-speakers" instead (though that is not ideal either). Only material directly related to NE should be included (e.g. I would rather not include the material about the various slurs/pejoratives used, as it is not directly related nor unique to NE), and material repeated elsewhere in the article should not be repeated.  Otherwise we will end up with a bloated article, which I want to avoid. Athenean (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I take your point and have had some of those reflections and thoughts as well. First lets sift through the peer reviewed data and stuff, work out a wording that encompasses the important stuff for the section and then fine tune the terminology after before it goes into the article. The length is subject to editing in here and discussion to be had in good faith. Its why i placed it as a proposal. Regarding the pejorative stuff, its part of the daily reality of all communities or various socio-linguisitic communities in the region. It has been cited as such by wp:reliable] and [[wp:secondary. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Sum up
From the above discussion and taking into account additional and in-depth research about N.E. (De Rapper paper of 2010 etc.) a number of good additions would be the following, although I'm afraid they can't be part of a separated (sub)section:

"The concept of Albanian national unity, regardless of religion, is challenged in post-communist Albania, although still part of a common national rhetoric. On the other hand a general public view in Albania labels all local Orthodox people, irrespective of ethnicity, as potentially "unfaithful" to the Albanian nation, and linked with conspiracy scenarios in favor of Greek expansion. Under this context post-1991 migration of local communities, regardless of speech and religion, towards Greece introduced new concepts in Northern Epirus, such as the use of the Greek language, once prohibited by the communist regime outside the recognized "minority zone", which is spoken by returnees and is now taught in private education, as well as tendency to change the personal names for Greek ones to facilitate acceptance in Greek society. It has been claimed that these procedures will result in the strengthening of the Greek character of the region.

Thus, amongst Orthodox Albanian speakers there are varying views regarding their identity and their relationship with Muslim Albanians, Greeks and Greece, with a tedency to identify as “Northern Epirote” which is understood as synonymous to Greek identity. According to a widely accepted view in Greece, those are ethnically Greeks who had underwent albanisation as a result of the politics enforced by the Albanian state. On the other hand, according to the local Muslim point of view, Orthodox are suspectible of denouncing their national identity for a Greek identity, for employment, material and symbolic benefits. Similar views claim that this tendency is also shared among the local Aromanian communities. Nevertheless there have been also instances where Muslim Albanian migrants to Greece converted to Orthodoxy in order to be accepted in Greek society. While relations between the Orthodox population and Muslim Albanians vary and are often distant with both communities traditionally living in separate villages and or neighbourhoods.

With the fall of communism the vast majority of the Aromanian population in Albania is affiliated to either a pro-Greek position or is in favor of a distinct Aromanian identity, while both of these tendencies overlap in some respects. There is also a tendency to support political parties of the Greek minority, while similar instances were noted among Orthodox Albanian speakers in Saranda during the 1990s.

Various pejoratives are in use today for the population groups in Northern Epirus, some of them are based on the Ottoman system of classification (Turk, Turco-Albanians for Muslim Albanians, Kaur/infidel, Kaur i derit/non-beliver pigs, for Greeks, Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs) (Gregoric+Nitsiakos) Muslim Albanians often refer to Orthodox Albanians as “Greeks” and attribute to them pro-Greek sentiments."


 * Excellent job Alexikoua ! I really mean it. A few typos need to be taken care of before it goes into the article. i.e:


 * Sentence: Muslim Albanians, Greeks and Greece., <delete full stop in front of comma
 * Sentence: enforced by the Albania state <add n at the end of Albania
 * Sentence: On the other hand, according to the local Muslim point of view, Orthodox are suspectible <add word: Albanian in between words local and Muslim. Also add between words view and are the Orthodox community or the Orthodox Albanian population or something like that. I am tilting toward the later because Muslim Albanians hold this view of those who speak Albanian and are Orthodox Christian (although Vlachs too). They don't hold it of Greeks (those who speak Greek as a home language apart from the Himariots of 3 villages and the mixed one), so having it in the sentence as a generic way encompassing all Orthodox is not the case and not reflective of such views.
 * Sentence:(this bit belongs to the previous one): for material and symbolic benefits < add after foremployment, as per De Rapper
 * Sentence:Moreover, relations towards Muslim Albanians, who traditionally live in separate villages and or neighbourhoods vary and are often distant. <I thought this sentence needed a little readjustment as: '''While relations between the Orthodox population and Muslim Albanians vary and are often distant with both communities traditionally living in separate villages and or neighbourhoods.
 * Sentence:There is also a tendency to support political parties of the Greek minority. Similar instances are also found among the Orthodox Albanian speakers in Saranda. <I thought these 2 sentences could work better as one with a readjustment: There is also a tendency to support political parties of the Greek minority with similar instances noted among Orthodox Albanian speakers in Saranda during the 1990s.


 * Also, considering these bits do add up as a sizable chunk, where about did you have in mind of placing them in the article within the The Northern Epirote issue at present section. Were you thinking of placing it one of the sub-sections ? If so, which one? Its why i kind of had thought that these bits would go into some kind of new section or a sub-section. Your thoughts ? Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:16, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Very nice. Almost all proposals look fine. I have only to disagree with the 4th proposal, about the "Muslim point of view". I would prefer to keep the exact wording from the author: Orthodox refers to those Orthodox that according to the local Muslim pov are susceptible to hellenization. This, for example, may refer to the inhabitants of Himara and adjacent villages which aren't officially recognized as of Greek ethnicity (& maybe from the Muslim pov too) and Aromanians, as the same paper offers some examples.Alexikoua (talk) 20:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The reason why i was saying that was because in Albania, there are also Slavic speaking Muslims, though not within the area defined as Northern Epirus, but importantly we have Muslim Roma who do live throughout the area defined as Northern Epirus (see: Baltsiotis article of Roma migration These views toward the Orthodox are by Albanian Muslims, not by other non Albanian speaking Muslims. I do not know what the Roma or other Muslim communties in Albania views are on the issue. Best have between words "local Muslim" the word "Albanian" for neutrality purposes. As for orthodox community, i am going to need to get my Nitisiakos from uni. It need to be fine tuned. Albanian Muslims have this view of most Orthodox that are not Greek speaking or from the minority zone. Otherwise good job on the summary. Add the other earlier bits from the earlier sum up bits on the language stuff into the article so at least that part is done with. Best.[[User:Resnjari|Resnjari] (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, i reread my Nitsiakos and went through the De Rapper article. I agree with you in keeping it close to De Rapper's words regarding the Orthodox bit. To make the sentence flow though between view, Orthodox add the. Although back to this bit: according to the local Muslim point of view a addition of Albanian is needed after Muslim so it reads Muslim Albanian. This because Nitsiakos also specifies that those views come from Muslim Albanians, not other Muslim groups like the Muslim Roma, or even Muslim Macedonian speakers in the country. So as to not implicate them and for neutrality purposes the addition of Albanian i feel is important here. We can add as a additional reference elaborating this to that sentence as noted in: Nitsiakos. On the border. 2010. p. 200-201. “Traces of this historical differentiation are still evident in South Albania today between Christian and Muslim Albanians. Very often on hears Christians call Muslim Albanians “Turks”; they, in their turn, often attribute pro-Greek sentiments to Orthodox Christian Albanians.”Your thoughts? Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2016 (UTC)