Talk:Northern Epirus Liberation Front

Ruches as a reference
In the article of Chams


 * That figure of 5300 cham fighters (if Ruches says 3500 chams volunteers) is a BS story. (see talking page at chams article here )


 * In the issue of Italian general Tellini once again Ruches cited here Corfu incident is again wrong (putting blame on Albanians) because if you see the sources on Tellini matter you see that:

1. None is expressed for sure most of them say none knows they were never found here an eg

2. Pearson here is favoring Albanians, by saying A) Greeks didn't want a cooperation on inquiry of the murder offered by Albanians. b) Delimitation Commission was deliberately favoring Albanians as accused by Greek newspapers (so no need for Albanians to kill him sic.) c) Albanian government ordered the publication of a Red Book containing two documents which proved that the assassination had been organized and perpetrated by the Greeks.

3. The International commission who made the inquiry on Tellini's murder clearly implies Greece's guilt here

4. Greece accepted to pay reparation (legally accepting the guilt)

I don't want to make any further comment on Tellini murder since sources speak for themselves. What I wanted to point out is that:

I see that Ruches, in the wiki article of Corfu incident and in Chams article of Greek-Italian war if not miscited again is biased as Anti-Albanian author (at least in these two cases, I had to check his other citations while I strongly doubt in his book he is a NPOV author au contrair) two cases because his cited position is - (Tellini murder-albanians did it(?! see above?!), Chams male population-were more organized than nazi germany?!) that's why I don't see him as a reliable source.

I see again Ruches used as a reference in Northern Epirus Liberation Front article. Again (if not miscited) he is wrong.
 * The Borova massacre happened in 6th July 1943 after Albanian partisans attacked a German column see Owen Pearson p. 258 here the link or Bernd Fischer p. 190  here the link  (or see here ) while he put it in October 1943?!?!?!


 * Again he is wrong for the winter offensive which was against Albanian partisans see here Fischer p 195 and Pearson p 319  and none mentions MAVI battles or even skirmishes in both those books, while the article with Ruches as a reference mentions many battles. Please take a look at Pearson and Fischer books to see for yourselves this huge discrepancy.


 * RUCHES SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A REFERENCE AS A CLEAR BIASED HISTORIAN WITH VERY CONTRADICTORY CLAIMS Aigest (talk) 11:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruches at general, is one of the most reliable sources about that area and period, even Vickers who is higly pro-Albanian suggests Ruches. Also Piercon is based on Ruches in several occasions. Most of what u claim belong to Cham Albanians article not here (Tellini, Daut etc.) About Borova, I'll look on it.


 * 1) According to the Greek-Italian War Ruches says that '3,500 Albanians among them Kosovar and Cham took part' not only Chams (I've corrected it in Chams).

I will look on Pearson, Fisher (they are also used in systematic contraditing claims and false dates) and F.M. Meyer (which I believe is more reliable) too.Alexikoua (talk) 11:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Even according to Blutiges Edelweiß By Hermann Frank Meyer here whio explains in details and with testimonies the massacre, they were 300 Albanian partisans lead by the Albanian communist Riza Kodheli (Tomorri group or battalion) who attacked on July 6th 1943, so I think all agree here except Ruches (I wonder which are his references?!) Aigest (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder also how it is possible MAVI was part of EDES and attacked Germans while Zervas troops themselves collaborated with Germans as admitted here by Hermann Frank Meyer  etc see Mayer book(no contradiction to germans in Epirus during 1943-1944, good understanding with Andartes in Epirus etc many many citation that in fact Zervas collaborated with Nazi germans). (You should also remember that one of the acussations of Enver Hoxha against greeks in peace conference in Paris 1946 was the participation of Zervas troops in German operations against albanian communists partisans, see Pearson for that). Man that Ruches is wayyyy wrong Aigest (talk) 12:11, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A whole chapter VII partisan war on Epirus and gentelman agreement between Germans and EDES Aigest (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Zervas troops collaborated with Germans? (you have great fantasy) lol, that;s what only u read. Read the book again plz. Suppose u r misusing the term cease-fire and it's more than clear (he was only accused by ELAS as such, but Meyer is clear 'cease fire' for some months, or else gentlemen's agreement- did I need to say what this means?-off course not collaboration, there were still enemies).

I understand that you feel a bit weird reading a non pro-Albanian author, but that's what called subjectivity. Ruches is mainly based on Albanian sources according the Ballist-Nazi actions of 1943-44. [], so he is quite 'rs' and off course non biased.

About the Borova massacre, Ruches doesn't mention the exact date of the incident (it can be concluded that it's before December 1943), and he is right it was in Summer of that year). According to the reasons of the massacre Ruches description is not contradicting Fischer's, Meyer's. It's quiet reasonable, on WWii many resistance groups were operating in certain areas and reprisal missions were not only against one ideological group. Hope I'm clear. (Why they had burn the priest and the church? seems quite erroneous a priest to be suspect of communist activity). I can provide everything you need to know about Ruches.

Also I've checked that Ruches also agrees with Meyes about the massacre of Orman-Ciflic (near Korce) too.Alexikoua (talk) 13:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I know what it is to read a non pro-Albanian author. Maybe you will be surprised, by I like to hear both sides of the the story. That's was the reason why I didn't remove all the article claims but only requested inline citations, removing the only what I saw as very contradictory. If you see my opinion is that Ruches (unless miscited) is a very contradictory at least in these topics:


 * Meyer, Pearson, Fischer all agree on the fact that Borova massacre was as a result of Albanian partisans attack (no MAVI there).
 * Meyer, Pearson, Fischer do not register any clash between MAVI and Germans or Italians in Albania.(no MAVI there)
 * Pearson, Fischer (and other authors an eg here ) agree on the winter offensive against Albanian partisans (no MAVI mention there again)
 * Meyer (but also other authors) agree the fact that EDES and Vermacht had a gentleman agreement so no attack on Germans from EDES forces. Now WTF MAVI as part of EDES battled fiercely with Germans (no german report says that)


 * The fact that all authors on the WW2 in Albania (except Ruches) agree is that the Italian and Germans were attacked by Albanian partisans (sometimes Italians were attacked by Balli Kombetar but that is another issue) and none of them mentions MAVI as behind any attack or military clash (like Ruches states in this article) lead to the conclusion that Ruches is not just a non pro-Albanian author, but a pure propaganda author (unless he is miscited) inventing fantasy stories none confirms (at least in the case of MAVI on WW2) And there is a huge difference between propaganda authors and biased authors. Hope you see that on this topic Aigest (talk) 14:11, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Polytsani and Malesiovon
"The villages of Polytsani and Malesiovon were in Epirote hands long enough to establish a headquarters and receive a British mission" Ruches


 * Which was this British mission (which british officer was in command of this mission?) cause from the British officers with mission in Albania who have wrote their memoirs none mentions that.
 * Do you know these villages are distant from each other more than 25 km in direct air line with a lot of other villages between them and Malesiovon region is a Moslem area while its dervishs are famous in South Albania (Dervish Malëshove is a typical expression in South Albania meaning a very clever cunning person an eg is Sejfulla Malëshova). Apart the dubios fact that MAVI forces (who mentions them?!) had their headquarter in a moslem zone, none confirms Ruches claims for such headquarter Aigest (talk) 14:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Italian-Albanian frontier posts
Wide-spread action was taken by the Northern Epirote resistance in December 1942, when attacks on Italian-Albanian frontier posts and gendarmerie stations increased.


 * Wasn't Cham region put under the governance of Albanian collaborationist government, then why Italian-Albanian frontier posts?!
 * No Italian reports confirms the attacks from MAVI forces and no other authors confirm that too. Aigest (talk) 14:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Pogradec battle
Pogradec battle a pure fantasy. Even if accepted the dubious fact of Poliçani village headquarter why going 200 km away through hostile zone into Pogradec (again moslem area)?!?!? to liberate the city why there was the nearby Gjirokastra (not mentioning the fact that actually Italian forces surrendered themselves to Albanian partisans throughout most of Albanian territory). More one reads this article more finds in it pure fantasies. Look man that in this article Ruches can be found 100 times wrong Aigest (talk) 15:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The MAVI has received many British mission during that period. Ruches mentioned some of them, like of 'Colonel Stankey' p. 167. About Pogradec, Polician was the hq in December 1942, as it says, during the Italian retreat the operations have expanded: The Northern Epirote guerillas were also affected by the Italian surrender. Guerilla battalions under a central command were formed out of the bands that had operated before. This unification was feld throughout the province. Many regions were entirely under Epirote administration and fierce battles took place between...... .

Moslem area? Pogradec? (u have a source that says that, actually it was a mixed area as far as Ruches says) 200km? what do u mean? resistance organizations have a range less than 200 km? who says that?

I added the entire inline about Pogradec.


 * Italian-Albanian outposts, suppose these means outposts manned by Italian and collaborationists Albanians (seems easy to understand).
 * Pearson also confirms Ruches in many parts (like in the Epirote-FNC agreement in Konispol and the Epirote representatives meeting in Memorachi).
 * About Malesiovo, I'll check that place, suppose the 25 km are not a problem for guerilla warfare.
 * Suppose Preason and Ruches are enough to prove that these events really happened.
 * The Northern Epirote resistance (1942-1943) is mentioned at least briefly in every research about southern Albania (even Tom Winnifrith mentioned it briefly)Alexikoua (talk) 16:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

@Alex
 * The first British mission named "Consensus"  going into those areas  was composed of MacLean, Smiley, Duffy (major Mclean, captain Smiley, lieutenant Duffy crossed the southern Albanian frontier at Konispol and had journeyed through the villages of Sopik, Skorë, Poliçan and Sheper, to-day in Nivan, to met the important Communist partisan guerrilla leader Bedri Spahiu)   see here  so this zone was under Albanian communist control. Not only that but the important cities in the south were controled by Albanian partisans "The partisans, who were much more active, not only consolidated their hold on much of the southern countryside but also occupied Korça, Gjirokastra, Elbasan and Berat."  along with lesser cities liberated before since july 1943 where you see that "Partisans had already captured the cities of Këlcyrë, Përmet and Leskovik"  for battle of Leskovik (Battle of Leskovik partisans claimed 200 Italians killed page 137 Fischer and page 250 Pearson).  From the british officers of the first mission Smiley (Albanian assignment) has published his memoirs (translated even in Albanian) and no mention of MAVI there (let even MAVI headquarter). From all British missions officers' working in Albania area, (see also memoirs of Hibbert, Tilman, Davies) there is no mention of any officer named Stankey, especially colonel which was a high grade because all others were majors except general Davies and his chief of staff colonel Nicholas who both arrived later that year attached to Albanian partisans headquarter and Davies was later captured by BK then sent to Germans in their Winter offensive 1943-44 while Nicholas died from a wound in the same period.


 * The fight for Pogradec happened in beginning of September 1943 between Italians and Albanian partisan First Shock Brigade (lead by Mehmet Shehu) "The first Brigade, fighting to liberate the town of Pogradec, was called urgently by th LNÇ High Command to go to the region of Tirana. On the way two battalions were taken out to set up an ambush near Librazhd, on the road from Pogradec to Elbasan, in which they killed over 200 German soldiers." see here  while the area of Pogradec was always under the attack of Albanian partisans during all 1943 period  no MAVI there.


 * Summary --- From both authors it can be understand that area in south was under Albanian communist partisan control, minor cities like Këlcyra, Përmet, Leskovik were under Albanian communist partisan control, while major cities like Gjirokastër, Berati, Korça were under Albanian communist partisan control when Italians capitulated while Albanian communist partisan (first shock brigada was attacking Pogradec trying to capture it, when was ordered to move in Tirana direction. Also no MAVI headquarter or contacts with British missions in Albanian area (no even in Poliçan where a Ruches supposed headquarter was) Aigest (talk) 07:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Saying all above I can not find the page of the FNC-N.Epirote Agreement. Could you tell me in what page it is? Aigest (talk) 07:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

British missions
See the map again (Sheper is between Poliçan and Malëshovë) Aigest (talk) 07:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * One of British missions was headed by H.W. TILMAN. It is interesting that this mission base camp was in Sheper (Zagoria region). You can find his memoirs in WHEN MEN AND MOUNTAINS MEET By H.W. TILMAN here the link  and he not only mentions Albanian communist partisan leader Bedri Spahiu (confirming others see above section) but tells stories in details (being first eye witness) the Albanian communist partisans had the control on all that area and their headquarter (for the First Operative Zone) was in Sheper. Again no mention of MAVI of any kind.
 * The mission leaded by McLean was the first one sent in Albania see here the book is Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive By Patrick Howarth Edition	illustrated Publisher Routledge, 1980 ISBN 0710005733, 9780710005731 here also  Special Operations Executive: a new instrument of war by Mark Seaman Edition	illustrated Publisher	Routledge, 2006 ISBN 0415384559, 9780415384551 and there is no colonel Stankey according to these books in SOE operations in Balkan area. Also at the first book is stated that  EDES forces operated almost exclusively in North-Western Greece and numbered in 1943 about 5000 men here  Aigest (talk) 08:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Zones of Control
None of the "supposed" controlled zones mentioned by Ruches is confirmed by any historian (see above) au contrair they are claimed as Albanian communist partisans controlled zones Aigest (talk) 10:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Zones of control
I see nothing more than a nice cherry picking research. Actually you prove nothing, you know what guerrilla warfare means, MAVI wasn't a political identity or a state, but a resistance group and is clear that it existed and operated. According to Petiffer (who is one of the most 'rs' authors) [], MAVI: fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country.

So you want to prove that it was a non-existing group controlling nothing in all the wwii period (Suppose Ballists fought something that never existed). If some (you name 2-3, because Pearson mentions MAVIs activities) authors didn't mention MAVI this proves nothing. For example most of the wwii authors did not mention Cham resistance, even the most detailed ones like Meyer, this doesnt mean that it didnt existed.

Zones of control
It's more than obvious that during guerrilla mountain warfare regions changed hands several times. Your arguments seem quite weird to claim that entire sectors didn't changed hands all that years, if a area is mentioned as communist sometime in 1943-44, doesn't mean that it was always communist. Petiffer says that MAVI at the final liberation of the country didn't played part, but it was part of the resistance in Albania.

FNC-MAVI
Pearson (p. 257) and Ruches made it clear that there was an agreement between the two, after British proposal. However, the agreement was problematic, some part of MAVI joined FNC, some others fled to Greece and joined EDES. Obviously, MAVI ceased to operate as an EDES branch, sometime in 1944.

Moreover, if a British report says 'communist' this doesn't exclude N. Epirote participation, according to British proposals the two organizations had to be one combined force against Axis. This is quite clear if we consider that part of the Greek minority soon, like Polican, were considered 'communist', sometime from 1943 (that's also clear in the article 'most of MAVI's regions came under FNC's control). To sum up not a single author, contradicts Ruches, everything stays in accordance and fits well.

I see several sources that mention the Northern Epirote resistance, like a U.S. mission that landed in Albania that time: [] (suppose it had lot of fantasy too)Alexikoua (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

 Concluding man that Ruches is pure propaganda in this MAVI topic. Aigest (talk) 14:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Look man that that is a part of introduction a clear copy-pasted from Ruchos just look at the exact words of Ruches and that text let me quote In October the germans mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between EAOBH and a combined force of ballists, Albanian fascist militia and Nazis. The results were devastating. As the Italian troops retreated(??!?!?!WTF in October 1943 and Italians retreated ?!?!?!) many had looted....etc.. mayby Ruches should sue them for copyright issues:) As for the German offensive against partisans all the sources are clear there was no October offensive man just Ruches fantasy. Let me remind you that those nurses did not eye witnessed it (they crash landed in November 8 1943) and since they are not historians it has no scientific value only if they eye-witnessed it would have been useful. Read the book itself here an eg Germans looking for partisans in Himara region Vuno, Dhermi and during all book they didn't met or witnessed any MAVI activity and this makes it clear.
 * No english mission of SOE mentions that meeting (see all above sources, individual and collective). Pearson p 257 says nothing it I have read it...it began with the word aggrandizement and ends with member see here  How about that?
 * No such officer colonel WHO? is mentioned in any ll above sources, individual and collective regarding SOE.
 * the supposed controlled areas have been explored in that exact period by British mission lead by McLean and they say nothing (see above all historians).
 * The battle of Leskovik was made by Albanian communist partisan forces against Italina, (see sources)
 * The battle of Pogradec also (see sources)
 * South Albania including major and minor cities was under Albanian communist partisans control (see sources)
 * Wiinter offensive began in end of December 1943 directed against Albanian communist partisans (see sources)

As arranged, 150 Northern Epirotes representatives of the resistance from all parts of Northern Epirus met on the 8th of August at Memorachi, Delvino, to consider the basis upon which they could meet British demands that they collaborate with FNC. Their decision was embodied in a letter forwarded to FNC headquarters. Its temrs were that the Northern Epirotes were to continue complete organic independence from any other movement and would join FNC in attacks against the Axis forces only if the latter and its allies recognized the future disposition of Northern Epirus under the Atlantic Charter's principle of self-determination. These temrs formalized in the Konispolis Agreement signed by the Northern Epirote resistance organization, by Rexhep Plako for the FNC, by Kemal Karagjozi for the Central Committe of the Albanian Workers' Party (under the pseudonym Celniku) and Miltiades Kyrgiannes for the EAM-ELAS (as the Greek-communist representative).
 * You accuse someone for copy-paste job from Ruches? fierce fighting blabla... Suppose you feel also that Petiffer (he also talks about fierce fighting) and Pearson like to copy-paste sections from Ruches too. Someone has to make great wp:synth job, to prove that Ruches is pov. The only thing someone can realize is that they rely on him (he might be 'rs' according to other opinions).
 * About the battles you mention nothing is contradicting, so Ruches still remains an rs source.
 * south Albanian sectors changed control several times before finally passing to communist partisans
 * The book about the nurses, isn't a novel but a real story.
 * Here is the entire agreement section, about the 'agreement':

So, dont tell me that these persons and events were non-existence too.


 * See again Pearson p. 237:"In the mountains at Theologus Monastery the Northern Epirote resistance leaders held a two-day conference beginning on February 12, 1943.... (suppose Pearson believes in science fiction too)
 * You say the Ruches is propaganda, the 'nurses' book made a copy-paste from this 'propaganda', suppose u also claim that Petiffer is also far-fetched because he mentions that 'fierce fighting occured', moreover Pearson makes also copy-pastes from Ruches.

I can conclude that you extract weird results, nothing more.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

-- Let's summarize Ruches claims in this article
 * Massacre of Borova happened because of MAVI attack on German convoy - Pure invention Albanian communist partisans under Riza Kodheli did it (see above sources)
 * Battle of Pogradec between MAVI and Italians - Pure invention Albanian communist First shock brigade did it (see above sources)
 * Battle of Leskovik between MAVI and others - Pure invention Albanian communist partisans fought against Italians (see above sources)

Interestingly Ruches mentions no dates for any of these supposed events


 * Wide-spread action was taken by the Northern Epirote resistance in December 1942, when attacks on Italian controled frontier posts and gendarmerie stations increased. In the regions of Zagorie, Pogon, Delvine, Sarande (Vourkos) and Rhize sectors guerrila activity by MAVI was increasing. That period the leaders of the organization received an British mission in the village of Polican. What a beautiful general non detailed section

Summarizzing ones more this paragraph
 * attacks on Italian controled frontier posts and gendarmerie stations by MAVI - none historian confirm this, no Italian report confirm this


 * In the regions of Zagorie, Pogon, Delvine, Sarande (Vourkos) and Rhize sectors guerrila activity by MAVI was increasing. That period the leaders of the organization received an British mission in the village of Polican.--The first British mission in that area recorded on SOE books(Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive By Patrick Howarth, Special Operations Executive: a new instrument of war by Mark Seaman) memories of British officers (Smiley, Tilman, Hibbert, Davies) and historians (Pearson, Fischer) was that of McLean, Smiley and Duffy. They passed all these supposed areas "major Mclean, captain Smiley, lieutenant Duffy crossed the southern Albanian frontier at Konispol and had journeyed through the villages of Sopik, Skorë, Poliçan and Sheper, to-day in Nivan, to met the important Communist partisan guerrilla leader Bedri Spahiu" in April-May 1943 and there is no mention of MAVI on any record. McLwean remained in that area until September and participated in training Albanian communist first shock brigade. Later in that are was Major Tilman During September and October, arms, clothing and boots for the partisans had been arriving at the rate of three or four plane loads a month. The pilots were always able to find the dropping ground in Zagori valley about 2 miles from Shepr." Major Timan remained in Sheper (English Shepr) till 18 May 1944 when another British officer replaced him.

'''During all this period April 1943- May 1944 British officers operating in South Albania were based on Zagori Region with headquarter at Sheper(neighboring Poliçan and Malëshova) and they SAY NOTHING. They moved throughout South Albania (see Tilman memories but also Smileys, Hibbert, Davies) and they again mention nothing and not only them but even the books written on SOE operations. They always maintain that South Albania regions were under Albanian Communist control except few places where Balli Kombetar was dominating and this is confirmed by historians so in the end another pure invention from Ruches'''

other claim
 * The British Mission proposed that MAVI and the Albanian communist party, LNC, should collaborate to form a stronger force against the Axis and Albanian collaborationists (Balli Kombetar), and arranged several meetings near Gyrokaster in August-September 1943-- pure invention The British missions operating that period in South Albania were those of McLean and Tilman confirmed by historians the supposed Colonel Stankey does not figure in any SOE list or memories of some kind (see sources above) If you want more details in that period in Gjirokastra region you have Tilman first eye witness here the link so in the end another pure invention

Other related claims
 * In February 1944 the regions that were under the control of the Northern Epirote resistance (which ones?!) were taken over by the Partisans of FNC.--pure invention if you see above british sources from April 1943 - May 1944 regions in south Albania (moreover Zagori region) they were under Albanian communist domination

Contradictory claims
 * MAVI was part of right wing EDES but they made an agreement with Albanian communists partisans?!?!?! (see above and below for the veracity of this claim which as always is a pure invention of Ruches)


 * In September 1943 Italy surrendered to the Allies and her place in Albania was taken by German troops. Epirote groups were able to take the initiative for a short-time period. Already before Italy's surrender until the communist party prevailed (1943-1944) the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.

What a contradictory claim. First it maintains that Italy surrendered and MAVI was able to take initiative-> after 8 September, but before Italy's surrender until the communist party prevailed (1943-1944) the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them. Million dollar question is when they were able to take initiative?

in the same claim
 * before Italy's surrender until the communist party prevailed (1943-1944) the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus.--Pure invention German forces captured without much resistance all major Albanian cities replacing Itailan troops (see Pearson, Fischer) and also on November 1943 they mounted the so-called Winter Offensive against Albanian communist partisans here and the situation described at that period was quoting "much of the southern Albania's lands and the town of Berat were controlled by partisans. The germans estimated that the partisans could muster 16000-18000 fighters, with the nationalist groups, not as well organized controlling perhaps 8000. Against this background Germans in early November launched their first capmaign against the partisans, operation "505". In November -December offensive was directed against Albanian partisans near tirana(Peza region) Berat area and in North zone of Dibër and Peshkopi (operations "RoterMann" and "Edelweiss") . continuing citation "In january and February German ground operations, supported in the air by ME110s, shifted to the south. The principal goal was the control of road network, important to the germans as a secondary route from greece, supplementing the primary road from thessaloniki up to the Vardar Valley to Skopje. The Germans were content to leave the mountains to the partisans. Indeed, neither the Germans nor the partisans seems to have seen the South as a main battle field-the Germans pulled their punches in their attacks, and the partisans did not go after the roads as much as they might have. They did not overprovoke the germans in the winter;they could not afford it. One of the principal reasons the partisans were in no position to push the invaders too hard was their increasingly violent struggle with the nationalists, another immediate result of the German invasion" So Again Ruches pure invention
 * THERE WAS NO MAJOR OFFENSIVE BY GERMANS IN SOUTH ALBANIA UNTIL JANUARY-FEBRUARY 1944 AND THAT WAS DIRECTED AGAINST PARTISANS (see all sources except Ruches of course:))

I have lost the count of Ruches inventions in this article. Practically every sentence regarding dates, battles, zones of control is a pure invention form Ruches and this makes him an excellent propaganda historian on MAVI topic. Aigest (talk) 07:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I forgot to add that you said Pearson confirmed FNC-MAVI agreement. I am sorry to say that Pearson books confirms nothing for this supposed agreement. Aigest (talk) 07:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

American nurses
The book was brought as a reference for such claims but it has some discrepancies in it:


 * First the introduction part describes events before the American nurses crash-landed in Albania in November 8, 1943. That is a part of Introduction of the book not related with their autobiography (how did they witnessed it?!) and has no historic value for as long as the nurses themselves are no historians they are not a RS for events in which they were not first eye witness.
 * Secondly and more important (but also related to that copy-pasted section) if you read all the book (from Crash landing chapter p9 to German strike again chapter p133) you can see that although the american nurses lived among South Albanians for many months they don't mention any MAVI or EAOBH or an kind of supposed resistance by them. But they mention Albanian partisans and Balli Kombetar many times (even describing battles among BK and partisans). How about that, they were in "the middle of supposed MAVI fierce battles against germans" and they saw nothing?. Lol that is hilarious.
 * Thirdly the copy-pasted section in introduction (not witnessed by nurses) "In October Germans mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and a fierce fighting occurred between them and Balli, Albanian fascist militia(?!October 1943?!) and Nazis" Yeah sure Rambos in the mountains fighting against everything and everyone (such a pity none witnessed them) see above for that paragraph in detail as a pure non-historic propaganda section. Moreover the author of Introduction of that book didn't even took the time to use the "politically correct" version of South Albania instead of Northern Epirus. Yep pure copy-pasted Ruches propaganda section. Aigest (talk) 08:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Weird research
Do you really believe what you say? The nurses were in southern Albania from November 1943, its quite obvious that there was already an agreement between FNC-MAVI. I'm really fed up with this childish view, considering every non pro-albanian source as propaganda, proving nothing at all.

I say it again 'fierce battles between Germans, Balists and MAVI' also happenned according to Petiffer. What r u talking about? Lots of if's, wp:synth, original research, cherry pickings to make conclusions. To sum up your conclusions: Sorry your conclusions are too weird to be considered reasonable.Alexikoua (talk) 09:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC) - Yep my conclusions for the below authors that you can freely find and read at google books (and I am not including Albanian authors to leave out Albanian POV)
 * Battle of Pogradec- noonne is contradicting Ruches. The diferrences in the approach are quite reasonable if some authors rely on British or Albanian secondary sources. I told there was an agreement between the 2 organizations (Petiffer say about a Hohxa speech considering the Greek minority members allies- see also Thanasis Zikos battalion)
 * Same with Leskovik.
 * Ruches is Propaganda
 * Nurses book introduction is a lie
 * Petiffer is lying
 * Pearson says nothing about MAVI resistance.[]

ISBN 3861534479, 9783861534471
 * Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845111044, 9781845111045
 * Albania at war, 1939-1945 by Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 ISBN 1850655316, 9781850655312
 * The Greek Minority in Albania In the Aftermath of Communism by James Pettifer 2001
 * Blutiges Edelweiß: Die 1. Gebirgs-division im zweiten Weltkrieg Hermann Frank Meyer Publisher	Ch. Links Verlag, 2008
 * Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive By Patrick Howarth Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 1980 ISBN 0710005733, 9780710005731
 * Special Operations Executive: a new instrument of war by Mark Seaman Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2006 ISBN 0415384559, 9780415384551
 * When men and mountains meet by	H.W. TILMAN Publisher CUP Archive

My questions
 * Do you see there to mention any battle or even a skirmish between MAVI forces against Italians, BK, Nazi, Partisans, whatever?
 * Do you see there to mention any MAVI controlled zone?
 * Do you see there to mention any MAVI headquarter?
 * Do you see there any meeting with British mission (supposed colonel Stankey)?
 * Do you see there to mention any FNC-MAVI agreement?

Please don't misquote them because I will be very disappointed Aigest (talk) 10:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Other questions for detailed topics
 * Do you see there to mention the massacre of Borova? Why it happened? Who were the fighting parts?
 * Do you see there to mention any battle of Pogradec? Who were the fighting parts and the results?
 * Do you see there to mention any battle of Leskovik? Who were the fighting parts and the results?
 * Do you see there a German offensive in South Albania? When it started? Against who was directed? The results and battles or skirmishes related to this offensive?

Please don't misquote them because I will be very disappointed again Aigest (talk) 10:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Misquoting Pettifer
Alex I am sorry to say but the exact words of Pettifer in the link provided by you  are "During the Second World War, the Greek minority supported the anti-Axis resistance, and when the Partisan campaign was started under Communist leadership, a separate battalion of ethnic Greek partisans (the ‘Thanas Ziko’ battalion) was established.11 During the national liberation struggle in the later stages of the war, the Albanian Communists were able to prevent contact between the Greek minority and the right-wing andartes of Napoleon Zervas (EDES) in southern Epirus, who sought to unite northern Epirus with Greece. In 1946, with Hoxha’s regime already in place, Greece attempted to reincorporate northern Epirus into its territory at the Paris Peace Conference, but failed." page 5 second paragraph 2 article The Greek Minority in Albania In the Aftermath of Communism by James Pettifer 2001 Now WHERE DO YOU SEE MAVI THERE? In the article are mentioned only Greeks fighting under FNC communist leadership in Thanas Ziko battalion and this is confirmed by Albanian communist history (none has denied it), and other historians.

As you can clearly can see there is no MAVI fighting according to Pettifer. Aigest (talk) 09:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Now the final question is. Who is misquoting Pettifer? Aigest (talk) 10:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Pearson misquotation
Alex claim was ''"Pearson also confirms Ruches in many parts (like in the Epirote-FNC agreement in Konispol and the Epirote representatives meeting in Memorachi)." Alexikoua (talk) 16:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)''

My exact question was "Saying all above I can not find the page of the FNC-N.Epirote Agreement. Could you tell me in what page it is? Aigest (talk) 07:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)"

Alex answer was "See again Pearson p. 237:"In the mountains at Theologus Monastery the Northern Epirote resistance leaders held a two-day conference beginning on February 12, 1943...." Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

My reply was "I forgot to add that you said Pearson confirmed FNC-MAVI agreement. I am sorry to say that Pearson books confirms nothing for this supposed agreement. Aigest (talk) 07:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)"

Summarizing as everybody can see here Pearson says nothing about N.Epirote-FNC agreement only mentions in 12th February they had a two day meeting at a monastery. So Pearson does not confirm N.Epirote-FNC agreement

Now the final question is. Who is misquoting Pearson? Aigest (talk) 10:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Greeks fighting axis in Albania
Apart the Greek army fighting Italian invasion 1940-41, the only confirmed no propaganda BS stories were those of Thanas Ziko partisan battalion under FNC command. I have the greatest respect for them and I think that they deserve an article here in wiki. I would be honored to write something about them and if you want you are welcome to collaborate on that topic. Aigest (talk) 10:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Other thoughts
From the articles regarding WW2 in Balkan area it looks a clear pattern that ("the supposed nationalist") right-wing movements in Yugoslavia (Mihajlovic cetnics Croat ustashes etc) Albania (Balli Kombetar) Greece (EDES) collaborated with invaders, while left-wing communist forces fought against them (Tito, FNC, ELAS). Aigest (talk) 11:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Nako Stavro?
Who the hell is Nako Stavro there is no person with such a name among FNC leaders. And the general secretary of FNC (there was not a central comitee of FNC) was Omer Nishani. Aigest (talk) 08:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Its quite clear, he was the secretary of the central commite of FNC in Gyrokaster and Vlore. [] Please don't tell me that the other 2 books (except Ruches) are science fiction too. (There is a German and a French book in google confirming that he was really that...)Alexikoua (talk) 09:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually the exact text is also mentioned here (in German) [] and [].Alexikoua (talk) 10:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The German book is a business book not certainly a RS for a history, hope you get it.

I feel I have to clarify you on the Albanian National Liberation Army (partisans) military orders:
 * 16 September 1942 Peza Conference created National Liberation Front(FNC) it created General council(10 person Seven communist including Mustafa Gjinishi, Enver Hoxha, and known nationalist like Abaz Kupi, Myslim Peza, Baba Faja) supervised the national liberation councils... The councils in areas yet to be liberated functioned as propaganda agencies, collected materials necessary for the war, conducted espionage, organized the economic struggle against Italian companies, and sabotaged the collection of agricultural products from fascist. In areas already liberated they were to function as new state. They were to maintain law and order developing local economy; overseeing food supply, trade education culture press, settling blood feuds and maintaining readiness for war.

Partisan bands were organized in fifty or sixty + political commissar The commander had the military jurisdiction except 1)Orders were at variance with party line 2)Orders were at variance with interests of liberation war 3)Treason of commander was involved In other words the non communist commanders had the freedom to do exactly what they were told. The party, whenever possible directed both politically and militarily. Each partisan band had a political cell and both cell+commissar )were responsible to regional committees of party. Popovic (Yugoslav adviser) who attended conference as an adviser hoped to further strengthen party control by creating a general staff that would tie the various units together, but his suggestion was not adopted. The partisan units were supplemented by territorial units-irregular selfdefence detachments made up of volunteers. They were planned for every larger village or one for 2-3 villages together. Their function was to protect the liberated zones and to serve as a source of replenishment for the regular partisan units. At the end of 1942 there were 2000 partisan + larger number of territorial units. ORDERS FOR NATIONAL LIBERATION ARMY (PARTISANS) WERE (FROM JULY 1943) ISSUED BY NATIONAL LIBERATION ARMY HEADQUARTER (see below example)
 * March 1943 after the First Conference of Albanian Communist Party, partisan bands were consolidated in battalions.
 * July 1943 the general council of FNC decided to form the headquarters of National Liberation Army, which Communist party has dedcided in March 1943. A general Staff was established with Hoxha as commissar and Spiro Moisiu a relative nonentity whom Hoxha would control as military commander with these members Enver HOxha(commisar) Spiro Moisiu(commander) Ramadan Çitaku, Ymer Dishnica, Baba Mustafa Faja, Mustafa Gjinishi, Abas Kupi, Haxhi Lleshi, Sejfulla Malëshova, Dali Ndreu, Myslim Peza and Bedri Spahiu
 * 5 April 1944 The NLA general staff ordered the Albanian National Liberation Army to go over the offensive everywhere; the partisan detachments and units everywhere complied with this order, forcing the German invaders to ensconce themselves in towns,barracks, and in fortified centers along the main highways and seacoast.

Related matters chronology
 * February 1944 Albanian forces were reported dispersed "March 8th British report partisans revival is a tribute to the flexibility and resilience of the LNC brigades the majority of which were reported a month ago to be either dispersed by German drives or faced with immediate starvation. The strength of Partisans lies in their discipline, energy and clarity of aim, qualities singularly lacking in their nationalist opponents"
 * 1 April 1944 Germans were still in Himara and no sign of Partisan activity "April 1, 1944 Germans curiosity had been aroused about Major Tilman's mission in the region of Borsh, resulting in a pursuit by German patrol from Himare forcing him to leave Kudhësi".
 * 5 April 1944 The NLA general staff ordered the Albanian National Liberation Army to go over the offensive everywhere; the partisan detachments and units everywhere complied with this order, forcing the German invaders to ensconce themselves in towns,barracks, and in fortified centers along the main highways and seacoast. (see above for ref)

Concluding 1) From July 1943 Partisans were ordered by their General Staff Headquarter Spiro Moisiu (Enver Hoxha actually had the power)

2) National Liberation Front did not commanded partisan units in February 1944 (neither before)

3) There is no Central Committee in FNC but General Council

4) There is no Nako Stavro in FNC figures (see all sources you want, neither Italian, Albanian or English historians writing for Peza Conference note it)

5) Partisans reported dispersed in February (no sign of activity)

6) Begining April 1944 Germans were still in Himara and no sign of partisan activity

7) 5 April Orders for partisan offensive were issued finally by NLA general staff

this leads to the conclusion that: Ruches is a falsifier

For his contradictions and falsities I will write another section below. Aigest (talk) 08:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruches is a clear npov source, and he has not single proven-wrong description in his works. In your attempt to prove that his is wrong or propaganda (that's never stated even by pro-Albanian authors) you try to prove that a number of works is scrap of papers. The German book is 100% historical book [[[], []]], [] (the entire book deals with 20th c. history) so give me a break plz (as well as the French book).

It's not our job here to judge a number of 'rs' works.Alexikoua (talk) 09:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't you see that it is a Book overview Snippet view - Item notes: v. 32 - Business & Economics what kind of reference is that Business & Economics books?!!? Should we bring travel book also here? Aigest (talk) 11:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruches NPOV? Gimme a break. Interestingly you like citing from Pettifer what don't you read his opinion of highly pro-greek Ruches above or link ? Or others like here  yeah sure Aigest (talk) 12:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I accept that he is considered pro-Greek by pro-Albanian authors. I also consider that this kind of pro-Albanian (Vickers, Petiffer) and pro-Greek (Ruches) authors, is still not propaganda and the events they describing, apart from their personal opinions sometimes expressed, are true historical events. For example, Petiffer suggest Ruches although being pro-Greek, he doesn't say 'don't read that guy, he is fairy teller'Alexikoua (talk) 12:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes he does not say so, but also he does not put Ruches work in his article (like other authors) except that as a reference to the end and giving Pettifer opinion that reference is highly disputed. Aigest (talk) 12:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

He says exactly: interested but pro-Greek. Suppose the vicious MAVI-German Ballists conflicts are taken by Ruches. About the German book, I see no 'Business and stuff', I see the book's sections: mostly concerned in minorities. Actually its a journal involved in research on southeast-europe topics (Thats his title by the way).Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to correct you a little it is exactly: interested but highly pro greek. It is in the section of Bussines and Economics books according to google.books who digitized it moreover I wouldn't base an article on just snipet views maybe he uses Ruches ref on that sentence. As I explained you above there is no Nako Stavro in any related book. Albanian books mention all participants although if they were later eliminated they were called spies or imperialists agent or reactionaries etc but they don't mention such name, also all other historical books regarding Albania don't mention him, and moreover the FNC did not have such a structure and moreover FNC couldn't possibly give orders to Albanian partisans. Only the general headquarter namely Spiro Moisiu but in reality Enver Hoxha:) could order single units (8 september 1943 pogradeci case first brigade ordered..see above) or all the army (5 april 1944 general attack) so this document is a fake (I wonder how did Ruches got it and others didn't although Pearson knew Ruches work:) Aigest (talk) 13:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that you see is partly the truth, accuse Ruches, but on the other hand find ok every pro-albanian perspective. You added that Ruches is mentioned as'highly pro-Greek', but dont forget that Petiffer &Vickers are also 'clearly pro-Albanian' []. Your approach is simple a 'one sided definition', I try to keep a balance. Moreover, it's not our job to judge a number of works of being propaganda. Did I say that Petiffer&Vickers is propaganda? No I'm not, they are carefully adopting a pro-Albanian approach, something similar to RuchesAlexikoua (talk) 16:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Also there are 3 books saying that Nako Stavro signed this secred order, as the secretary of the central committee of the Nat. Lib. Front". Too hard to believe that opposite.Alexikoua (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Nako Stavro text ""The regions of Eastern and Western Himara must be taken immediately. You must defend yourselves against a possible German attempt to seize the region. In case it is impossible to achieve this, the Germans must be provoked to set fire to the villages of these regions. All Greek nationalists must be seized and sent to I.K. (designated place for execution). — Nako Stavro Secretary of the Central Committee of the National Liberation Front (of Albania). February, 1944.

Problems with history
 * There is no Nako Stavro in Albanian books of history of any kind pro and against communists, or in any English source published for the history of Albania in WW2 (see sources above and below or just google search it)
 * There is no Central Committee of National Liberation Front, only General Council (see sources above and below)
 * National Liberation Front could not ordered partisan units, only Albanian National Liberation Army General Staff could have done it (see sources above and below)
 * There were Germans who mounted an offensive against partisans in Himara that time not viceversa (3 February 1944: The germans Began a big drive against Albanian partisans in the area of Vlorë, they moved into Vuno (Himara region my specification) and also occupied Dukat. Major Quayle was compelled to cancel the proposed operation of bringing supplies to the partisans through Vuno, but he planned to transfer the landing base to Gamma Bay just few miles further north. and they remained undisturbed by partisans there at least up to begining of April (1 April 1944: Germans curiosity had been aroused about Major Tilman's mission in the region of Borsh, resulting in a pursuit by German patrol from Himare forcing him to leave Kudhësi.
 * Only in 5 April 1944 finally the Albanian National Army General Staff ordered the offensive against Germans (April 5 1944: The LNC general staff ordered the Albanian National Liberation Army to go over the offensive everywhere; the partisan detachments and units everywhere complied with this order, forcing the German invaders to ensconce themselves in towns, barracks, and in fortified centers along the main highways and seacoast.)

Also the problem of German book brought as a reference: The same could be said for the other French snippet view book (both books are on 1966-67 period after Ruches 1965 none before and after mentions it again a simple question summarizing the situation would have been apart their WP:RS Since both authors are not eyewitness could you please tell me what they use as a reference for that Nako Stavro mention or paragraph?) Hope you see the handicap here historic and scientific. Aigest (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Is a book on Business & Economics not certainly a WP:RS
 * It is a snippet view, maybe he uses Ruches as a reference -> Ruches is the only one reference.

Signs
I would appreciate if you give detailed arguments on the signs you added. The 'controversial' events you already stated (battles etc) are not mentioned. Please give detailed arguments on that.Alexikoua (talk) 09:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Pearson full citation for Theologus Monastery meeting

 * Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845111044, 9781845111045

Page 237 paragraph one here the link

February 12, 1943

'''The "Northern Epirot" resistance leaders began to hold a two-day conference at Theologus Monastery in the mountains. There it was determined that the invaders should be fought with all means, that armed bands should be organized, liaison effected with the resistance organizations in Greece, and funds collected to meet the needs of the struggle.'''

AND THAT'S ALL PEARSON MENTIONS

Now where did you get the supposed August 8 meeting and Konispol agreement except at Ruches. Why did you use Pearson as a reference for that, moreover wrongly quoted (no MAVI-FNC agreement and 12February->8August)? Can you please explain that? Aigest (talk) 10:11, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Misquoting Petiffer again about MAVI
[] About MAVI: organisation which fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country. Quite clear the conflicts that Ruches describes. Things are reasonable.Alexikoua (talk) 10:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

You are refering to the refnotes in the end? I didn't read them.

Yes it say so but this was not in the article itself (no worth mention, while Thanas Ziko battalion is mention fully in the article itself by Pearson) for the full paragraph of Petifer article see

"Northern Epirus reverted to Albania under Italian protection, a state of affairs that was formally ratified in 1925 by the delineation of Albania’s southern border under the December 1913 Protocol of Florence, which Greece still has not officially ecognised. Under King Zog, the Greek villages suffered considerable repression, including the forcible closure of Greek-language schools in 1933-1934 and the ordering of Greek Orthodox monasteries to accept mentally sick individuals as inmates. During the Second World War, the Greek minority supported the anti-Axis resistance, and when the Partisan campaign was started under Communist leadership, a separate battalion of ethnic Greek partisans (the ‘Thanas Ziko’battalion) was established. During the national liberation struggle in the later stages of the war, the Albanian Communists were able to prevent contact between the Greek minority and the right-wing andartes of Napoleon Zervas (EDES) in southern Epirus, who sought to unite northern Epirus with Greece.  In 1946, with Hoxha’s regime already in place, Greece attempted to reincorporate northern Epirus nto its territory at the Paris Peace Conference, but failed."

Interestingly In the ref notes in the end I see

12) There has been very little study of the Northern Epirus issue in this period. For an interesting but highly pro-Greek view, see Pyrrus Ruches, Albania’s Captives (Chicago: ArgoPress, 1964).

Should I remind you that this article is based completely on Ruches work going clear POV. Aigest (talk) 11:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Tags
A simple example, interestingly one sentence including all tags (but all the article reflects them see my comments above):

Already before Italy's surrender until the communist party prevailed (1943-1944) the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.(9)

Already before Italy's surrender..
 * factual accuracy->Major offensive in south Albania was mounted by Germans and Balli on January-February 1944 (see sources I mentioned above) while Italians surrendered in 8th September 1943?!

..the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.
 * contains weasel words, vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information.->1.Germans and Balli mounted an offensive against Albanian communist partisans (see sources) and no MAVI fierce fighting are mentioned in any historian (except Ruches if it says so see below) 2 Does not contain specific dates names place identifying the supposed "fierce fightings" generally speaking giving impression of supposed MAVI great resistance.

...the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.
 * Neutrality->Germans and Balli mounted an offensive against Albanian communist partisans (see sources) not against MAVI and the fighting happened between Nazi&Balli vs Albanian communist partisans (see sources above)

Ref 9 in the end
 * inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text.-> ref 9 in the end of sentence says Ruches 1965 (no inline)

If you see all the questions I asked you above at Weird research section, could you please answer them? They have a great impact in the article since they are all connected to the tags I put here. Aigest (talk) 10:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

This is what Petiffer also says, off course putting it in the footnotes doesn't mean it's not true or less true. Moreover, It means nothing when a pro-Albanian [] (Petiffer) author considers someone else (Ruches) pro-Greek. He finds him interesting anyway (not propaganda, guess a serious author does not suggest propaganda material, that's sure).

I'll reword the sentence, suppose u find Petiffer ok. Also ref 9 inline added.Alexikoua (talk) 12:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Already before Italy surrender. It's obvious that German groups were operating in the area, before the withdrawal of Italian ones. Borova massacre happenned during that period for exampleAlexikoua (talk) 12:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Look that you are messing up things Alex. The phrase was "Already before Italy's surrender until the communist party prevailed (1943-1944) the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them."

How many time do I have to say THERE WAS NO MAJOR OFFENSIVE OF GERMANS AND BK IN SOUTH ALBANIA UP TO JANUARY-FEBRUARY 1944 all sources of WW2 in Albania maintain that. See Pearson, Fischer, Meyer, Tilman, Pettifer whaterver sources I mentioned above.

Chronology

July 1943 The Albanian partisans attacked a German convoy in July 1943 but that was a simple German convoy going to Greece from Yugoslavia entering Albania in Pogradec region than following the road Pogradec-Korce-Kolonjë-Permet trying to enter Greece in "Tre Urat" border point. It was attacked in Kolonjë region by Albanian communists partisans before entering Greece. (see sources above especially Meyer)

August 1943 Partisans and BK made Mukje Agreement promising to fight together against invaders. Later Albanian communist denounced it(see sources above)

September 1943 Albanian partisans controlled major cities in South Albania (see sources above)

October 1943 Germans occupied all major cities in Albania (except Berat)(see sources above)

November 1943 Germans attacked partisans in Peza region and Berat region(see sources above)

December 1943 Germans attacked partisans in Diber-Peshkopi region(see sources above)

January- February 1944 Germans attacked partisans in South Albania(see sources above)

Are we clear on that? Would you please read the sources above? Aigest (talk) 14:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Suppose, you are carefully avoiding Petiffer too. I'm sorry it's too much for me to take that into account. You actually see a part of the history during this period. So, please don't delete Petiffer's statement.Alexikoua (talk) 16:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC) Ok but in the mean time please accept that Ruches is a highly pro Greek author (two sentences from the same Pettifer in the same text) Aigest (talk) 12:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Summaring Ruches' stories, fantasies, lies and falsities on MAVI topic
Ruches position before my intervention in the article for everyone interested in the article. In the section above you have the sources I mention below
 * Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845111044, 9781845111045
 * Albania at war, 1939-1945 by Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 ISBN 1850655316, 9781850655312
 * The Greek Minority in Albania In the Aftermath of Communism by James Pettifer 2001
 * Blutiges Edelweiß: Die 1. Gebirgs-division im zweiten Weltkrieg Hermann Frank Meyer Publisher	Ch. Links Verlag, 2008 ISBN 3861534479, 9783861534471
 * Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive By Patrick Howarth Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 1980 ISBN 0710005733, 9780710005731
 * Special Operations Executive: a new instrument of war by Mark Seaman Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2006 ISBN 0415384559, 9780415384551
 * Lotta armata e resistenza delle forze armate italiane all'estero by Biagio Dradi Maraldi, Romano Pieri Editors Biagio Dradi Maraldi, Romano Pieri Publisher F. Angeli, 1990 ISBN 8820463245, 9788820463243 page 173 (borova case again)
 * When men and mountains meet by	H.W. TILMAN Publisher CUP Archive

We began Ruches position with the new entry of ...

KORÇA REPRISALS CASE
Ruches claim Italians arrested persons connected to MAVI in Korça in March 1943

In March 1943, 160 inhabitants of Korce were sent to concentration camps for suspected underground activities with the Northern Epirote resistance.

Pearson claim Italians arrested indiscriminately Albanians in Korça in March 1943 to use them as hostages after Albanian attacks in Korça region

March 25

''A prominent volunteer group of Albanian patriots, supported by a large number of experienced guerrillas, operating in Korçë-Kolonjë area and commanded by Dr. Safet Butka, recently engaged and defeated a whole Italian detachment in the vicinity of Voskopojë, a locality into the mountainous region to the west of Korçë. This same group attacked the enemy headquarters in Voskopoje, where Safet Butka liberated all the political prisoners and he took from the military depots at Ersekë an important quantity of arms and ammunition. ..A new section of this force commanded by Tase Bilushi fought a heavy engagement with an Italian battalion at the village of Gjonomadh, a small provision centre in the Korçë district. The Fascist commander Major Romeo Amedeo, two lieutenants and 21 soldiers as well as a large number of fascist militiamen were killed and the remainder taken prisoners. The guerrillas destroyed all the war material in the storehouses of the village and set fire to the buildings occupied by Italians, but they raided the army grain stores and distributed the crops among the people. They also liberated 12 political detainees from Korça hospital after killing three Italian gendarms'' Pearson link

March 30 1943

''The Italian army began a blockade of the city of Korçë which lasted for five days and nights. The formal pretext invoked by Tirana regime was that colonel Cripps, a British officer who had served before with Albanian gendarmerie, was hidden in the town, together with 12 other people. The Italian carabinieri did not in fact carry out any searching in the houses that they entered,but just picked up the people they found. The total number of arrest in Korçë amounted to 150, among whom were a great many school-teachers including women; they were confined in the concentration camp called Ostaggio (hostages) built recently in Porta Romana in the vicinity of Durrës.'' Pearson link

April 7 1943

''A huge demonstration took place in Korçë headed by the Bishop and the women and children of the Albanians arrested during the blockade which began in March 30the. The crowd shouted :"We want back our men and our fathers". When the demonstrators were in front of the Town Hall the fascist militia fired on the crowd in oreder to disperse them. Many women and children were wounded and the demonstration was dissolved. The people who were arrested were hastily put in to military lorries and sent to Porta Romana without being allowed to take any clothes or blanket. They were searched and deprived of all the money they had. The Italians took 145 men and 70 women as hostages.'' Pearson link

POGRADEC BATTLE CASE
Ruches claim MAVI vs Italians (September 1943)

''In September 1943 Italy surrendered to the Allies and her place in Albania was taken by German troops. Epirote groups were able to take the initiative for a short-time period. In Pogradec occurred a fierce battle with the ongoing Italians, but the town was taken after the retreating Italians had burnt a major part of it.'' (Ruches p.163)

Pearson claim Partisan 1st Brigade vs Italians (September 1943)

8 September 1943

''The first Brigade, fighting to liberate the town of Pogradec, was called urgently by the LNÇ High Command to go to the region of Tirana. On the way two battalions were taken out to set up an ambush near Librazhd, on the road from Pogradec to Elbasan, in which they killed over 200 German soldiers."'' while the area of Pogradec was always under the attack of Albanian partisans during all 1943 period  Not only that but the important cities in the south in that period were controlled by Albanian partisans "The partisans, who were much more active, not only consolidated their hold on much of the southern countryside but also occupied Korça, Gjirokastra, Elbasan and Berat."  along with lesser cities liberated before since july 1943 where you see that "Partisans had already captured the cities of Këlcyrë, Përmet and Leskovik"

LESKOVIK BATTLE CASE
Ruches claim MAVI vs Partisans (some months before August-September 1943?)

''The British Mission proposed that MAVI and the Albanian communist party, LNC, should collaborate to form a stronger force against the Axis and Albanian collaborationists (Balli Kombetar), and arranged several meetings near Gyrokaster in August-September 1943[4]. However, some months before they fought each other in a fierce battle at Leskoviki and finally their collaborative efforts were only moderately and spasmodically successful.''

Pearson and Fischer claim Partisans vs Italians (May 1943)

In May 1943 partisans of Korça district fought what came to be known as the Battle of Leskovik in which the partisans claimed 200 Italians killed and a dozen trucks and armored cars destroyed page 137 Fischer and page 250 Pearson

BOROVA BATTLE AND THE SUBSEQUENT MASSACRE
Ruches claim MAVI vs Balli Kombetar fight with support of German officers, then Balli Kombetar burned the village (October 1943)

''In October a fierce battle was fought between Epirote and Balli Kombetar units together with support of German officers, near the village of Borova (Kolonje District). As a result of the Epirote retreat, 130 people of the village, irrespective age or sex, were lined up and executed and the body of the village priest was hanging for a week.'' with a ref Pyrrhus J. Ruches. 1965. P. 163 "It was not until October... complete extinction"

Pearson, Fischer, Meyer, Maraldi claim Partisans vs Germans then Germans burned the village (July 6th 1943)

''The partisan battalion Tomorri attacked a German motorized column at the Barmash pass on the Korçë-Janina road, in Kolonjë district. The German convoy, which had come from Macedonia and entered Albanian territory on its way to Janina, was taken by surprise in an ambush. The partisans inflicted heavy losses on the Germans, destroying most of the vehicles and military equipment and killing more than 60 men. In reprisal the Germans immediatly sent an armored column down from Korçë, going through both of villages of Borovë and Barmash with flamethrowers. In Borovë the Germans set every house on fire with the inhabitants inside; they then surrounded the village and drove the people back into the flames as they tried to escape. They massacred 107 people -women, old men and childre- and razed the village to the ground.'' Owen Pearson here Bernd Fischer here  Hermann Meyer here  Maraldi here  Aigest (talk) 11:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

BRITISH MISSION CASE
Ruches claim (December 1942-1943?) British mission met MAVI headquarter in Polican village, Later on August September they arranged a meeting FNC -MAVI signed in Konispol (according to Alex ref here . The name of the head of British mission was colonel Stankey p. 167(according to Alex talk here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Northern_Epirus_Liberation_Front#Pogradec_battle)

''Wide-spread action was taken by the Northern Epirote resistance in December 1942, when attacks on Italian-Albanian frontier posts and gendarmerie stations increased. The regions of Zagorie, Pogon, Delvine, Sarande (Vourkos) and Rhize sectors were under the control of MAVI. That period the leaders of the organization received an British mission in the village of Polican'' with a ref Pyrrhus J. Ruches. 1965. P. 158-159 "Widespread action was taken in December 1942...applied severe measures". ''The British Mission proposed that MAVI and the Albanian communist party, LNC, should collaborate to form a stronger force against the Axis and Albanian collaborationists (Balli Kombetar), and arranged several meetings near Gyrokaster in August-September 1943. However, some months before they fought each other in a fierce battle at Leskoviki and finally their collaborative efforts were only moderately and spasmodically successful. In August 8, representatives of the Northern Epirote resistance, decided to join the communist party only in specific attacks against the Axis, provided that the latter will recognize the autonomy of the region in the post-war period. Although the Albanian communist leaders agreed and assurances of the British allied mission were given, they secretly marked Vasilis Sahinis for liquidation.''

Pearson, Fischer, Howarth, Seaman, Tilman etc claim

1) The first British mission leaded by Major McLean entered Albania in end of April-May 1943 and met Albanian partisans in Albanian partisan headquarter in Shepr (interestingly Sheper village neighbors Polican and Malëshove villages the supposed MAVI headquarters see map).

2)British missions in Albania collaborated with Albanian partisans forces, Balli Kombetar, Royalist forces (Abaz Kupi) other Albanian nationalist forces (Muharrem Bajraktari, Gani Kryeziu) 3) No records of any kind on MAVI on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers

4) No records of any kind on MAVI - British mission contacts in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)

5) No records of any kind on MAVI - FNC agreement with the help of British mission (SOE) in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)

6) No records of any kind of colonel Stankey on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers

Chronology of British mission in Albania

April 17, 1943 the first British Liason Officers (BLO) sent into Albania by SOE, Major neil Loudoun Desmond (Billy) McLean of the royal scots Greys, Captain David Smiley of the Royal House Guards and Lieutenant Gavin Duffy, a demolition expert from Royal engineers, were dropped by parachute near the monastery of Romanon in the mountains of Epirus, from where they were to make their way across the nearby Albanian frontier. Pearson Fischer here  Patrick Howarth here  here also Mark Seaman here

May 1st 1943

''Major Mclean, captain Smiley, lieutenant Duffy crossed the southern Albanian frontier at Konispol and had journeyed through the villages of Sopik, Skorë, Poliçan and Sheper, to-day in Nivan, to met the important Communist partisan guerrilla leader Bedri Spahiu. He however was suspicious of their intentions and asked them to return to Greece'' " also Fischer here

June 1943 McLean mission meets Enver Hoxha

June-August 1943

In the three months after contact -that is June through August- British dropped 19.5tons of weapons, ammunition, and supplies to McLean and Smiley, of which the partisans received the lion share. Also ''Smiley and McLean then as their first trask were given the job of oganizing, training and equiping the First Partisan Brigade. The British threw themselves into the task and after several months of airdrops, in August the brigade was ready, commanded by perhaps the most experienced and effective Albanian military leader during the war, Mehmet Shehu.''

August-September 1943

''Tilman was the officer at August-September in Gjirokaster-Saranda area. That this mission base camp was in Sheper (Zagoria region). he not only mentions Albanian communist partisan leader Bedri Spahiu (confirming others see above section) but tells stories in details (being first eye witness) the Albanian communist partisans had the control on all that area and their headquarter (for the First Operative Zone) was in Sheper. Again no mention of MAVI of any kind. also "During September and October, arms, clothing and boots for the partisans had been arriving at the rate of three or four plane loads a month. The pilots were always able to find the dropping ground in Zagori valley about 2 miles from Shepr."'' H.W. TILMAN here the link

GERMANS WINTER OFFENSIVE CASE
Ruches claims

From October 1943 to April 1944 the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.

In February 1944 the regions that were under the control of the Northern Epirote resistance were taken over by the Partisans of FNC.

Pearson, Fischer, Meyer, Tilman claims

November 1943 they mounted the so-called Winter Offensive against Albanian communist partisans here and the situation described at that period was quoting "much of the southern Albania's lands and the town of Berat were controlled by partisans. The germans estimated that the partisans could muster 16000-18000 fighters, with the nationalist groups, not as well organized controlling perhaps 8000. Against this background Germans in early November launched their first capmaign against the partisans, operation "505". In November -December offensive was directed against Albanian partisans near Tirana(Peza region) Berat area and in North zone of Dibër and Peshkopi (operations "RoterMann" and "Edelweiss") . continuing citation ''"In january and February German ground operations, supported in the air by ME110s, shifted to the south. The principal goal was the control of road network, important to the germans as a secondary route from greece, supplementing the primary road from thessaloniki up to the Vardar Valley to Skopje. The Germans were content to leave the mountains to the partisans. Indeed, neither the Germans nor the partisans seems to have seen the South as a main battle field-the Germans pulled their punches in their attacks, and the partisans did not go after the roads as much as they might have. They did not overprovoke the germans in the winter;they could not afford it. One of the principal reasons the partisans were in no position to push the invaders too hard was their increasingly violent struggle with the nationalists, another immediate result of the German invasion"''

Chronology of German Winter offensive in South Albania

7th January 1944

" In central Albania three German divisions advanced from three different directions to carry out the plan for they winter campaign, which was to drive the bulk of the partisan forces into the south and then to cut off their retreat, but to surround and annihilate them in the Vlorë-Berat-Korçë triangle. The Germans were ravanging the interior districts, capturing and setting fire to towns and villages, and brutally murdering hundred of Albanian peasants." here

12 January 1944

British report ''The LNC is the only military force of any war value in the country. Its area covers most of Southern and Central Albania, but except for on group in Scutari area and another in Kosovo, it soes not extend in Northern Albania.'' here

3 February 1944

The germans Began a big drive against Albanian partisans in the area of Vlorë, they moved into Vuno (Himara region my specification) and also occupied Dukat. Major Quayle was compelled to cancel the proposed operation of bringing supplies to the partisans through Vuno, but he planned to transfer the landing base to Gamma Bay just few miles further north. here

15 February 1944

British report ''Albanian resistance still continues, esspecially in the south in spite of Brutal German reprisals. Only recently some thousan Germans descended upon the smiling valley of Gjirokaster, burned down the houses of those known as outstanding patrioits, and pillaged the remainder of everything they could carry away. In accordance with British policy, the military mission will continue to assist all Albanians who are fighting or who are ready to fight the Germans.'' here

8 March 1944

British report ''partisans revival is a tribute to the flexobility and resilience of the LNC brigades the majority of which were reported a month ago to be either dispersed by German drives or faced with immediate starvation. The strength of Partisans lies in their discipline, energy and clarity of aim, qualities singularly lacking in their nationalist opponents'' here

24 March 1944

''It was reported that a German column stationed at Sarande was attacked by Albanian patriots, who took 60 prisoners. As a reprisal Germans burnt the village of Kardhikaq, nine miles east of Delvine..... Major Tilman's party moved north to the Village of Kudhësi in order to avoid the Balli Kombetar who occupied Borch.'' here

1 April 1944

Germans curiosity had been aroused about Major Tilman's mission in the region of Borsh, resulting in a pursuit by German patrol from Himare forcing him to leave Kudhësi.

April 5 1944

The LNC general staff ordered the Albanian National Liberation Army to go over the offensive everywhere; the partisan detachments and units everywhere complied with this order, forcing the German invaders to ensconce themselves in towns, barracks, and in fortified centers along the main highways and seacoast. here here


 * Nako Stavro order case see above for details

ZONES OF CONTROL CASE
Ruches claim

''Wide-spread action was taken by the Northern Epirote resistance in December 1942, when attacks on Italian-Albanian frontier posts and gendarmerie stations increased. The regions of Zagorie, Pogon, Delvine, Sarande (Vourkos) and Rhize sectors were under the control of MAVI. That period the leaders of the organization received an British mission in the village of Polican.''

Pearson, Fischer, Tilman claim that ''During all this period April 1943- May 1944 British officers operating in South Albania were based on Zagori Region with headquarter at Sheper(neighboring Poliçan and Malëshova). They moved throughout South Albania (see Tilman memories but also Smileys, Hibbert, Davies) and they again mention nothing and not only them but even the books written on SOE operations. They always maintain that South Albania regions were under Albanian Communist control except few places where Balli Kombetar was dominating and they say nothing about MAVI headqurter or fightings'' see details with references here

MAVI FIGHTING UNITS AND HEADQUARTER CASE
Ruches claim

''The Northern Epirote guerillas were also affected by the Italian surrender. Guerilla battalions under a central command were formed out of the bands that had operated before. This unification was feld throughout the province. Many regions were entirely under Epirote administration and fierce battles took place between ...'' page 162 Ruches

Pearson, Fischer, Howarth, Seaman, Tilman etc position

1) No records of any kind on MAVI or MAVI headquarter - British mission contacts on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers, and in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)

2) No records of any kind on MAVI forces or units or headquarter on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers and published memories of SOE officers, and in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)

3) No records of any kind on MAVI fightings and their control by headquarter on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers, and in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)

My personal observation on Headquarter case

Morevoer Guerilla battalions under a central command were formed out of the bands that had operated before it looks like MAVI headquarter was formed in September 1943 according to Ruches?! Why Poliçan Dec 1942?!

SUMMARIZE ALL ABOVE DISCREPANCIES, AND YOU GOT A VERY CONTROVERSIAL STORY AND AUTHOR (It is too little to call it controversial giving falsities and propaganda it contains)

P.S. In this section there are the still unanswered questions Alex. Aigest (talk) 14:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

One-sided controversy
It's really a paradox because we have not a single controversy the arguments too weak and complicated, no discrepancies, please stop this nonsense about non-existent events. I will repeat myself:
 * Ruches is in accordance with many historians as 'rs' who confirm him: Pearson (author that was a pro-Zogist, that's what the preface says), Petiffer, Costa de Loverdo, southeast Journal of Munich (off course not a bussines one),.
 * I'm still waiting what your explanation about Petiffer is: "vicious fighting between MAVI and Balists". Suppose u avoid to accuse him, because he is considered 'clearly pro-Albanian' in general. Or is he beliveving the so-called 'Ruches controversy'?
 * Costa de Loverdo: makes detailed description about the activity in southern Albanian and the MAVI role.
 * The German Journal of southeast Europe (a clear historical work, off course not travel guide, that's funny) also makes detailed descriptions about Mavi activities.
 * The book on the American nurses mission (it's not an argument to blame someone that believes Ruches) isn't it too much to accuse entire bibilography?

As I said there was an agreement with MAVI and FNC, sometimes both could be considered one force against Axis. Off course the communists finally dealed with an extreme brutal way the Greek minority, especially Himara which lost minority status in 1945. No wonder Albanian primary (communist) sources avoid to mention Mavi.

I will add some other authors (like de Loverdo) on the 1943-44 events, like Nacko Stavro's secred order and some negotiations and conflicts.

And stop this propaganda capitals, read wiki policy basics. Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 22:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that you are hiding the fact that a dubious part appears on Nurses book introduction, no connection at all with what they experienced. No WP:RS there for a topic refresh jump here Aigest (talk) 08:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Pearson also appears in the references in the end not in the article itself,(if you don't understand the difference, it is not my fault) for a refresh jump here


 * The german business book and the other one are explained here

You still haven't answer my questions above. It is difficult for you to have access on them, or you simply ignore them? Ruches credibility goes away just by mention what kind of story tells him for Borova massacre because 1. Dates July (October). 2 Fighting parts german-partisans (balli-mavi) 3 the perpetrators of the massacre Germans (Balli) in the end what remain is a story with wrong dates, names, and actions Yeah such a great historian he is moreover putting Balli and Mavi there he makes a clear example of propaganda. What to expect from an author which makes a mess and propaganda to the very well known Borova massacre. Let alone for other not so well known facts. Aigest (talk) 08:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

There is neither mess nor propaganda, especially in Borova case, Ruches is quite clear on the facts. Off course totallitarian Albanian primaries can't agree on every detail with non-Albanian primaries. See Eastern Bloc information dissemination to see how such regimes can change information and historical events.


 * As I said the arguments are far too weak. A German bussiness book? Did I say several times that it is a historical journal? And I'm not the one to teach German here.
 * Also weird conclusions on American nurses book. Is it possible that a part of that book is just 'bulshit'?
 * I see no more than pov madness, to prove something impossible. How can also Petiffer mention 'non-existent' vicious MAVI-Ballist fighting? Too many controvarsies and inconsistency on the arguments, suppose the world is consipiring against Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 08:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

* Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845111044, 9781845111045 * Albania at war, 1939-1945 by Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 ISBN 1850655316, 9781850655312 * The Greek Minority in Albania In the Aftermath of Communism by James Pettifer 2001 * Blutiges Edelweiß: Die 1. Gebirgs-division im zweiten Weltkrieg Hermann Frank Meyer Publisher Ch. Links Verlag, 2008 ISBN 3861534479, 9783861534471 * Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive By Patrick Howarth Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 1980 ISBN 0710005733, 9780710005731 * Special Operations Executive: a new instrument of war by Mark Seaman Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2006 ISBN 0415384559, 9780415384551 * When men and mountains meet by H.W. TILMAN Publisher CUP Archive and others make part of a vast Albanian conspiracy of hiding the MAVI activity in WW2?! Man that conspiracy argument was something hilarious. Why do you keep avoiding answers to my questions regarding these books? Aigest (talk) 10:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There is neither mess nor propaganda, especially in Borova case?! WTF man did you read all sources German, English etc If you feel Pearson, Fischer as pro-Albanian, why don't you read Mayer german sources who actually did the massacre, names, dates, facts. You have used Mayer in Cham article so I think you are familiar with him as an author here the link.
 * What is your position on Borova massacre? Do you still think Balli did it after fought with Mavi on october (Ruches version)? Or Germans did it after they fought with Albanian partisans?
 * Weird conlcusions on nurses book? Do you deny the facts 1.That book is an autobiography? 2. that part is in the book introduction not in their memories? 3. Nurses didn't eyewitness it? 4. In all their book (except introduction) there is not a single mention of MAVI related of any kind, though they resided in supposed MAVI controlled areas?
 * The german business book and the other one are explained here in details you still didn't answer my questions.
 * As for the supposed conspiracy all these books:

You are talking about conspiracies and controversies in your attempt to create an pov situation. Your so-called anti-albanian conspiracy consists of the following (suppose if we had a Hoxha like tottalitarian regime all these would end up in fire):
 * Ruches, Pyrrhus J. (1965). Albania's captives. Chicago: Argonaut. pp. 213. http://books.google.com/books?id=01eQAAAAIAAJ&q=&pgis=1. (the bad anti-albanian guy, who must be considered unreliable due to that)
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=6hJ4AAAAIAAJ&q=%22Nako+Stavro%22 Costa de Loverdo. Les Maquis rouges des Balkans, 1941-1945. Grèce, Yougoslavie, Albanie. Stock, 1967, p. 266. (Why he gives so detailed description about MAVI it's an enigma).
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=yJe2AAAAIAAJ&q= Südost Europa: Zeitschrift für Gegenwartforschung: Monatsschrift der Abteilung Gegenwartsforschung des Südost-Instituts. Southeast Europe: Journal for modern research. Südost-Institut München. Abteilung Gegenwartsforschung. (Is this a bussines book? oh god..)
 * Pearson, Owen (2006). Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945. I.B.Tauris. pp. 512. ISBN 9781845111045. http://books.google.com/books?id=P3knunC7z_oC&hl=. (he made the same mistake referring to MAVI...)
 * http://www.defac.ac.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97 James Pettifer - The Greek Minority in Albanian In the Aftermath of Communism (Conflict Studies Research Center). I wonder why he mentioned that vicious MAVI-Balist fighting, (it was non-existent according to you...)
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=jUqWNn1z9jEC&dq=EAOBH&hl=el&source=gbs_navlinks_s. Why does he mention the MAVI/EAOBH group? An autobiography doesn't mean its bulshit (didn't use it as a source in the article, but it's easy to see that a number of books confirm MAVI activity and the follo).

I said it thousand times the bibliography you mention (Fischer etc.) doesn't contradict the above (Ruches etc.). For example in Borova case, we had compined MAVI-FNC activity that period in this region. The term 'communist' or 'partisan' incorporates also MAVI (where do u belive the guys from Thanas Zikos came from?), apart from FNC (they allied that period under British support). Germans had also Balli support in many cases (that's confirmed by most authors, Meyer too). For more details on MAVI see the sources I provide.

If you find a series of event 'anti-albanian' its not my job to judge, they are confirmed according to a sereis of 'rs' sources. Thank youAlexikoua (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You are avoiding the fact that none of the sources I have listed above mentions any specific topics such as MAVI fighting, British-Mavi meeting, MAVI headquarter, or MAVI at all in many cases.
 * You still didn't answer the question about Borova massacre. What happened there?
 * You are messing things up MAVI (EDES right wing zervas) vs Greek communist partisans under FNC leadership. They are not the same. I proposed you an article on Thanas Ziko and I created it, but surely to make connections Thanas Ziko -MAVI is pure fantasy and nonsense.
 * as for other sources I have explained above their position.
 * Lotta armata e resistenza delle forze armate italiane all'estero by Biagio Dradi Maraldi, Romano Pieri Editors	Biagio Dradi Maraldi, Romano Pieri Publisher	F. Angeli, 1990 ISBN 8820463245, 9788820463243 page 173 (borova case again)

You seem to not understand what above authors say on MAVI. None mentions any specific battle(Italian, German, English,) none mentions any meeting with British missions(British) none mentions any controlled zone of MAVI(Italian, German, English,) none mentions any MAVI headquarter (Italian, German, English,). Do you deny these claims I made above? Aigest (talk) 11:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Seem Aegis' arguments are far too weak. Rejecting 'facts' related to the holocaust, such as the deportation of Jews from Albanian to Bergen-Belsen concentration camp (Ruches mentions that). I say it again in a simple manner: If a number of books don't mention Mavi resistance, who played a minor role in albanian resistance anyway, doesn't mean that it was non-existent (see bibliography about Greece in wwii, the vast majority doesn't mention a word about Cham resistance participation, but it doesnt mean it never happened, it was just of minor importance).

It also seems you have a weird pro-Albania filter search, you considered specific authors (R. Elsie) partly 'rs'-Jews in Albania- and partly non 'rs'-Ali Pasha-, in your attempt to promote pro-albanian views. How can you compose a strong argument performing a cherry picking activity?Alexikoua (talk) 06:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Those cherry picking from sources above are actually MAVI main topics. Please stick to the sources and above issues questions.Aigest (talk) 06:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

How many were they to fight the Germans?
Alexikoua, can you source the number of the people that fought under this "Front"? That time overall there must have been 20K Greeks in Albania, so how many fighters could a population of 20K give? --SulmuesLet's talk 22:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

And they fought against 4 enemies in the same time(!!!). ""against the invading Italians, Germans and both against the Albanian communist and collaborationist organizations.""

But in Greek writings i cant find anything about MAVI, or MAVI's resistance actions. I dont know if anything exists in Albanian or in another language.Istoria1944 (talk) 11:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Sahinis leader(?) of MAVI
In phd of dr. Koltsida page 228, we read that : Sahinis had protest to Italians because they encourage Albanian power against Greek minority.

If he was in a Resistance group how Sahinis has protest to Italian Occupation Forces? Istoria1944 (talk) 10:49, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

German casuatlies, and colonel of NAZI
We know for sure, all the dead colonels of NAZIs. Who was the killed colonel? In which book except this of 1960, there is the same action?Istoria1944 (talk) 11:31, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I seek for a history researcher. Istoria1944 (talk) 09:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)