Talk:Northern Italy

Lega Nord
why write something about Lega Nord? I think we don't write about politics in this article, that is about Geography.

Northern Italy is a historical and cultural unit due to the influences of the Lombards, the unique position of the city states in the Middle Ages, the differences in cuisine and the higher industrialization. Politics is intertwined with this historical and cultural difference. I'm not supporting Lega Nord, the historical and cultural difference is nowhere near enough to call N. Italy a different nation or ethnicity, but there is a difference, just as there is a difference between New England and the South in the US


 * These issues should be discussed in this article.


 * They could be. But the Lombards controlled much more of the peninsula than just the northern part. And it is a great mistake to confuse the Lombards with the Lombard League: the latter only formed part of what we define as northern Italy. Monferrato, for instance, was nearly always on the side of the Holy Roman Empire.Ian Spackman (talk) 10:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Settentrione
The term "Settentrione" should be discussed. Badagnani 17:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * From a Latin term meaning literally ‘The Seven Oxen’: a name for the constellation known in English as the Great Bear, according to Lo Zingarelli. Which I didn’t know until I looked it up and found interesting. But isn’t that a bit peripheral to this article? Or perhaps you had something else in mind. Ian Spackman (talk) 10:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)ok.
 * "Settentrione" simply means "north" in Italian; the term alone is also used to refer to northern Italy, especially in weather forecasts but seldom in common speech. From the last three lines of Etimo.it. Medende (talk)

without any administrative worth?
What is meant by "without any administrative worth"? Is there possibly a translation issue here? (The copyediting of the History section would imply as much.) Does it mean that Northern Italy is not defined politically as a distinctive entity and there's no particular governmental body that administers the region? "Worth" is an odd word here.

Also, is Northern Italy as defined here geographically equivalent to what the Romans called Transpadane Gaul? Wikipedia treats Cisalpine Gaul and Transpadane as if they're identical, and I'm unclear about whether that's so. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well Northern Italy certainly isn’t limited to Transpadane Gaul, as that would cut out everywhere to the south of the Po. As to ‘administrative worth’, yes I imagine what the editor meant was what you guessed. But it’s very odd English. Ian Spackman (talk) 13:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking back, my point should've been that Cisalpine Gaul is not (as seems to be implied elsewhere on Wikipedia) identical with Transpadane Gaul, for just the reason you state: it excludes what the Romans called Cispadane Gaul. But I'm still unclear about how closely "northern Italy" is geographically coincident with the ancient Cisalpina. Apparently there is such universal pleasure at the phrase "without any administrative worth" that nobody's editing it. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Etruscans = Germans?!
This article seems to say that the Etruscans were Germanic (if "etrurian people" is supposed to mean Etruscans). This is not a linguistically tenable argument, to put it mildly. Although many aspects of the Etruscan language remain mysterious, it was definitely not Germanic, or Celtic for that matter. The interactions between the Celts and the Etruscans in Northern Italy prior to Roman hegemony is an extremely interesting topic, however. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see someone is expanding on this. Here's what isn't clear from the article: this so-called 'German' DNA in Etruria — in the present-day population (when it could have been introduced in various historical periods) or in antiquity before Roman hegemony in the peninsula? And if the Etruscans were Germanic, why didn't they speak an Indo-European language? Also, in the history section, there is a huge chronological gap between these supposed origins and the 2nd century A.D. Frankly, articles often start to devolve in unproductive ways when "blood" origins (in the guise of DNA) and ur-linguistics displace cultural documentation and geographical definition. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes indeed! Not to mention the fact that the Etruscans were more a feature of what we, and istat, call Central Italy. Ian Spackman (talk) 12:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

History

 * ''Setting aside the facts that it is highly biased, semi-literate and virtually unsourced, I think the following essay has no place in the article: it is not focussed on Northern Italy as we (following Istat) define it. I have therefore removed it and request that its author discuss here before adding it again. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Northern Italy was inhabited by Celts and protoceltic tribes in the "Lombard Valley".

After the roman invasion, Lombardy ( as the northern regions and Tuscany have been called as a whole entity until the born of Italy ) became a strategic region of the Empire when the german incursions started in the late 2 AD. In this period important celtic cities, like Turin and Milan, were transformed in military settlements in order to provide with the best defense Rome and the regions of Italy.



Lombardy, Austria, Bavaria and Hungary became the target of the oriental german people's invasions ( Ostrogoths, Eurasian Avars, Lombards ). The Ostrogoths and the Lombards settled in the North of Italy and their Kingdom lasted two centuries. In fact, the French army called by the Pope and leaded by Carolus Magnus invaded the North and the french king owned the crown of the Lombards ( The Iron Crown ). Later the Holy Roman Emperors and the Austrian Emperors owned it.

In the 13 century the Lombard league and the Tuscan League opposed themselves to the power of the emperor to gain more autonomy and to avoid the payment of tributes, but they didnt leave the Empire, that was important to limit the ambitions of the Popes in Lombardy (or North of Italy). In this period each duche or republique prefered to letimize its own power as heir of the ancient roman civilization, in order to get the respect of the greater european sovereigns, but they also started to fight each other in order to widen their markets and to enforce their legitimization. The Duchy of Milan was quite successful to get this goal even if it was finally defeated at the end of the 15th century.



The several wars weakened the financial and human resources of the lombard states and Lawrence of Medici the Magnificent was in late to discover in the "equilibrium of power" among the major italian states the right formula to preserve the lombard independence. For two centuries the North of Italy became the battlefield of the great european nations, up to the 18th century when Austria monopolized the power giving also the start to a new age of intellectual and economic renaissance.

The feelings against Austria and the disdain of the ancient states rose in the 19th cent and they were caused by the emperialism and the neoclassic trends that were inspired by the british and french conquerers in the Mediterranean Sea and their discoveries of the classic wonders. The irredentists or the "blue shirts" wanted in Italy a new state that could manage a colonial empire like the other european powers and the Sardinia Kingdom proposed itself for the role. As a consequence this state started several wars often changing its side during the same conflict in order to gain the highest price for its help and the support of the other states for the realization of its long-term planes of conquerer (Napoleonic Wars, Crimean War).

After several wars against the Austrian Empire, Italy was born and Rome established as the new capital city. The rumours of the ancient capital cities like Turin and Florence were silenced by the army, and Venice, Milan and their countrysides were looted as happened to Genoa one century before. The Iron Crown was left in the Monza Cathedral and substituted by the Sardinia Crown. A new epoque of romanization and strong emigration flows from the south to populate the lombard cities started and a more geographic definition (Northern Italy or Settentrione) replaced the historical name of "Lombardy".

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 * Turin at sunset.jpg