Talk:Northern Shaolin kung fu

Northern kicks and southern fists
I don't agree with the following paragraph that came from this page:


 * "It is believed that the distinction between Northern and Southern is due in part to geography and genetics. The Northern terrain was considered flat and easier to do jumps and kicks and Chinese of the North were considered taller with longer legs. Southern Chinese were considered shorter and lived on rocky terrain. Their style developed with more hand techniques and less leg work."

The following comes from the book Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo:


 * "Northern versus Southern


 * This scheme is mostly used in reference to Shaolin systems. The motto of this scheme is “Northern Legs, Southern Fist.” What the scheme says is that southern Shaolin systems have better, more developed hand techniques and far less of an emphasis on kicks and other leg maneuvers. Southern Shaolin systems are supposed to be characterized by their deep and stable stances and a focus on lots of different hand formations and methods of hand use. In contrast, the Northern Shaolin systems are supposed to have a wider range of kicks, be more acrobatic, with higher stances but with less developed hand techniques.


 * The basis for this scheme is the supposed geographical differences between the north and the south. The north was stereotyped as being little more than wide open spaces with the major mode of transportation being walking or horses. The south was stereotyped as being confined in the sense that the topography was broken up by rivers, rice fields and mountains with the major mode of transportation being boats.


 * The problem with this scheme is that the exceptions swallow the rule. There are so many systems that do not follow their geographic stereotypes that the classification scheme becomes useless. The other problem with the scheme is that proponents of northern systems are offended by the idea that their systems are light or weak on hand work; in a similar vein, proponents of southern systems take umbrage at the idea that the footwork and kicks of their systems are deficient in comparison with their northern counterparts.


 * Many Taiwanese I have talked to have a more complicated scheme that talks about systems that come from the north, south and central areas of China. This scheme is not based on the idea that each of the geographic areas has a forte, but rather is simply based on the area of origin for each system. It stops short of making any implication that systems originating from a certain area share any regional characteristics."

Southern Fists and Northern Kicks is a martial legend. (Ghostexorcist 04:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC))

Many thanks for your input, Ghostexorcist. Unfortunately, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Many kung fu masters, some with both Northern and Southern kung fu training, acknowledge the rule of "nan shou, bei tui." Yang Jwing-Ming is one example, and after training in both changquan and bai he quan myself, I must agree. Styles such as White Crane, Wing Chun, and Hung Gar specialize in the short range. It is common knowledge that kicks are applied less frequently in close quarters; they certainly exist, but they can only be applied at a proper distance. If you have seen any Wing Chun or White Crane sparring, you will observe that hand techniques are used very extensively and kicks are applied sparingly.

In contrast, Northern styles such as Cha quan, Mei Hua quan, Mai Fu quan, Tan Tui, Piguazhang, and Tang Lang quan apply kicking techniques more frequently. For example, even Baguazhang practitioners practice xuan feng tui (tornado kick), while such kicking attacks are rarely or never seen in Southern styles. Additionally, the majority of these styles are specialized for fighting in the long range (Xingyiquan and Bajiquan are notable exceptions), where kicking techniques abound.

Now, about exceptions - Wing Chun features an impressive number of kicking techniques. However, they are used less frequently. Bruce Lee himself only incorporated additional kicking techniques into his style after leaving Wing Chun. Northern styles that seem to feature more hand techniques such as Bajiquan, Xingyiquan, or even Baguazhang are rare exceptions to the rule, and even they may build heavily upon kicking forms such as Tan Tui. See http://www.adamhsu.com/articles/taiwanblog_tantui.html, an article by Adam Hsu.

In conclusion, I believe "nan shou, bei tui" may not perfectly describe every style, but it is a useful generalization, at worst. Omicr0n7d3n9 (talk) 20:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible Edits
In an effort to produce cooperation rather than conflict, I have some questions about potential edits:

"Chángquán- Literally meaning "Long Fist," is a general term for external (as opposed to internal) Northern Wushu. It is one of the types of Wushu kung fu."

Since Bak Sil Lum is older than all modern sport wushu styles, why is changquan included in the curriculum list?

"*Wing Chun- Literally meaning "spring chant" and alternatively as "forever spring", or substituted with the character for "eternal springtime" is a Chinese martial art that specializes in aggressive close-range combat."

How did Wing Chun get in there? I've never heard anyone claim that for BSL before.

"*Jeet Kune Do- Literally meaning "Way of the Intercepting Fist," was created by Jun Fan or Bruce Lee. Though this is not a style, it is a fighting method, and has been added within recent years as the overall self-defense portion to be mixed with the traditional styles."

Now, how on Earth could that be part of the BSL curriculum? Bruce Lee invented it in the mid 20th century.

"**Gouquan- Literally meaning "Dog Fist Kung Fu," is used for ground fighting. It is mainly practiced in Fujian Province and was historically often practiced by women who were victims of foot binding, for whom any form of standing physical exertion was difficult. Its creation is traditionally credited to a Buddhist nun who developed the style to defend herself from bandits on her travels."

Bak Sil Lum has Dog Boxing now? The legendary style of Chinese Groundfighting no-one seems to know anymore? The core sets only have four or five ground movements, and they are very short. Also, I don't think there's record of it ever been used as a ground style (note: I don't mean standing grappling/wrestling, I mean purely on-the-ground BJJ style)

"*Five Animals- The five animals found in Bak Sil Lum differ from those of Shaolin Quan. Technically there are eight animal forms, yet three (A,B,C) are added to other systems."

eight animal forms are part of the universal BSL curriculum? I think maybe, my brother, your own school's specific forms and additions are being listed here in the edits. All schools/lineages of BSL have additions, but if they're used in the article this way, it implies that all BSL lineages/schools use this same set of additions. I could be wrong, but I'd like to hear the explanation. Questioning is not an insult, Questioning in itself means I'm willing to take you seriously. It's a sign of respect. I hope we can work together from now on and I'm sorry if I appeared aggressive or out of place in my early posts. I deal with a lot of BS and may have assumed the worst when I saw a such huge edit without individual sources.

NJMauthor (talk) 13:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

This was changed to Possible Edits because we in Wikipedia do not single out other members.

It's not singling someone out if you're referring to the edits they planned to put into place. NJMauthor (talk) 23:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)