Talk:Northern United States/Archive 1

I added the bit about Maryland. My intention was to show that people in the 'border' states may self-identify based on factors other than simple geographic location. Prince Geroge's County], for example, is in the south of Maryland, geographically speaking. However, since it is a suburb of DC, those people have more in common with people in suburban Philadelphia than [[Kent County- which is actually well to the north, but quite rural.

However, it may be an unneeded example.

Who destroyed this page? It needs to be fixed ASAP!
Even the photo showing the Northern states in red has been removed. Correct information has been replaced with crap. Who's spreading this garbage? Kansas? Missouri? Nebraska? Are you kidding me? Somebody help me out here. Nikki88 (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ummm.... No
Somebody needs to redo this article, I'm from Ohio and defently don't think of Maryland as being Northern, much less Kentucky, Virginia, Kansas, or other random states you've thrown in this. The Northern States are the Dakotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and the Northeast. Maryland and Delaware are in the South. Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa and Missouri are Central, not Northern.George Bush 17:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the picture caption and remember to sign your post with four tildes ~ -- daniel  folsom  02:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Page move
According to new policy approved by WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Northern United States, and likewise its related sub-articles as well. Thanks. -JCarriker 10:43, May 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * Since there seem to be no objections. I'm going through with the move. -JCarriker 08:14, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between the "Northern United States" and "The North" (The article touches on this in the second paragraph), Northern United States implies all states in the northern half of the country, but "The North", which this article is about, does not refer to all states in the northern half of the country. I think this page was better named "U.S. Northern states" BSveen 18:54, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The old title has the same problem as this one. Is Alaska not technically a U.S. Northern state? The map and the article make the context and usage of the term clear. All other regions are located at similar titles, there is no point in moving it.-JCarriker 08:18, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Any American knows what you mean when you say "The North" or "The Northern states" (i.e. the "U.S. Northern states", the old article title), but to say the "Northern United States" would be a bit confusing, misleading, and somewhat unclear to many people. So the better title for the article would be the old "U.S. Northern states", in my opinion. It's not the biggest deal in the world of course, but I'd like to hear what others think. BSveen 00:34, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Then you should inquire at Talk:WikiProject US regions which passed the naming conventions. A standard is needed this was selected. I believe the current title is just as clear as the old one&mdash; the same potential for confusion exist at both titles. -JCarriker 03:30, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

This Article Is WRONG
Nebraska and the Dakotas were not even states during the time of the civil war. Also, Kansas is generally considered to be in the "central" region, as well as the 3 states mentioned above.
 * They don't necessarily have to have been states during the Civil War to be considered Northern states. And states can be part of more than one region, for example the Dakotas are part of: The North, The Upper Midwest, The Great Plains. And as for Kansas, it was strongly pro-Union during the war. --BSveen 00:34, July 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * Kansas was considered Northern in the ACW. It was about as unsympathetic to southern interests as a state could be at the time. Red Harvest (talk) 20:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh for the love of God you've got Virginia as state which "may" be considered part of the North? Virginia was home to Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. Capital of the Confederacy! The Army of Northern Virginia! As a Southron and a Virginian, I am perplexed and offended. --70.160.160.175 12:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

First, you should learn to spell southerner. Second, this is the 21st century not 1865. Virginia has changed since then. As a Virginian, I am happy to be considered part of the Mid-Atlantic and somewhat Northern state. November 2008


 * North Carolina can also be considered a northern state. VA and NC are in the mid-atlantic region, neither are considered sunbelt states. User:Lehla

If you're saying that, then we should put South Dakota in the Deep South because it has South in its name.


 * As for Virginia, West Virginia actually seceded from the state during the war because of the lack of identification with southern interests. And Kentucky, a border state that sided with the Union, was actually originally part of Virginia as well.  Red Harvest (talk) 20:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Colours and appearance
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions --Qirex 05:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Virginia?
Virginia should not be striped. Never is Virginia ever considered part of the North. Two of the three capitals of the Confederacy were in Virginia. It had a huge slave population from the start. Therefore, I don't think it should be striped. --Stallions2010 22:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Maryland, had a huge slave population, as well.....

Indeed sir, I have been a Virginian all my life, and never would i consider my self at all "Northern", nor anyone i know form Virginia

I have also lived in this region for my entire adult life. I have never under any circumstances heard Virginia even insinuated to be part of the North, besides in this article.

Welcome to 2008. I have lived here all my live as well and think Virginia is changing. It may not be 100% northern, but its not 100% southern either. Its a mix between both.

VA/DC/MD
MY Opinion:

I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states! Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.

Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line.

If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern???? It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.

Subject 3: MD.

Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN. I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!

Final Subject: Overall.

Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern! They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!

ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz

ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maryland"

You obviously must be proud of Maryland. Too bad your spelling sucks. Are you sure you're not some middle school kid trying to be grown?

Border states
In the editing of this page and several other pages relating to the cultural regions of the Eastern United States, it has become apparent that many users are willing to rapidly - and often, without great thought/research/consideration - pigeonhole the old "border states" into one region.

Let us remember that the border states of MO, KY, WV, DE, and MD have always - and probably always will - be marked by incredible varieties in the local cultures, habits, customs, climates, and self-identifications. To attempt to establish, as many people have, that "Missouri is ENTIRELY Midwestern" or that "Kentucky is ENTIRELY Southern" or that "DE is now ENTIRELY Northeastern" is incredibly naive and shows a total lack of understanding of the history and cultures of these states. Even without a thorough analysis, simply glancing at the demographics, linguistic profiles, religious affiliations, and political habits of these states should instantly render us more cognizant of their transitional natures. Little Dixie, Missouri; Northern Kentucky and Louisville; the Northern Pahandle of West Virginia; Southern Coastal Delaware; these are all regions of border states (and there are certainly many more) that, through their marked differences with a so-called "prevalent" culture in the same state, reveal that the border states were forged of both Northern/Midwestern and Southern/Appalachian cultural elements. There are plenty of citizens of MO and MD who, due to their heritages and lifestyles, would prefer to be considered Southern, just as there are plenty of citizens of KY and WV who, for the same reasons, would prefer to be considered Northern or Midwestern. And I would certainly trust these citizens to more correctly identify their own cultural backgrounds than a random Wikipedia editor working off of some grade-school stereotypes and a relatively minor understanding of these states.

In the future, it would be great to see some acknowledgment of the cultural differences in this region. It is time that some people realize that cultural influences do not abruptly shift and end at rivers or lines on maps. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.88.158 (talk) 06:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

I am from Maryland, and agree strongly with the above. I would never consider Maryland to be part of "the North." I, and everyone I know growing up there, considered Maryland to be a "Southern" state. Not the "Deep South," of course, but a "Mid Atlantic" state (which our usage was different than what Wikipedia classifies as "Mid Atlantic." We always meant Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, and West Virginia...  I would never have guessed Maryland would be grouped together with New York.)

Map
It seemed to be the consensus on this page to remove Virginia from the map so I made a new version. Then I noticed that the map was recently updated by Sunlight07. I think there should be a discussion on which map to use --Astrokey 44 03:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I would think that Virginia definitely needs to be included as striped because the influence of Northern Virginia is so large on the state. Maryland and Delaware have been mostly rejected as Southern on the Southern talk page for good reasons, so keeping them as solid seems to make sense. The map that we have now seems sufficient and accurate. --70.168.88.158 05:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Sunlight07 has tried, without avail, to change opinion about Maryland on the Southern page... It seems he has taken matters into his own hands on less active pages. Please hold him to Wikipedia standards; please force him to prove his opinions through research before accepting them.

Use version 3, there is no way at all that Virginia is even close to a being a Northern state.

Election
I did notice that the election map is inaccurate. I accidentally made Iowa Blue when it should have been Red (the map is supposed to be for the 2004 election). If somebody could correct this, I would be very grateful.

Also, I don't know who took my income map down, but there was no reason to do so and I'll soon be reposting it. Thank you.

Sunlight07 01:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Sunlight07


 * Your income map was incorrect as you colored New York as an above-average income state. NY's median household income is actually a couple of hundred dollars below the median. (For a second there I almost thought you'd colored New Hampshire as below-average but it turns out that just NY was colored wrong) Regards,  Signature brendel  16:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

What about MT, WY, ID, OR, WA, and maybe AK?
Does anyone know why these states (located in the northwestern corner) aren't considered? What makes them any less northern than the others? Frank12 00:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure - but I think for some reason the northwest is a separate classification.-- daniel  folsom  01:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But since this page is a combination of the Midwest, Northeast, and some of the South, surely the Northwest can go in here as well, right? By creating regions, states are going to belong to multiple regions.  I'm not trying to start an argument, but since we've created the region of the Northern US (which would include bits of the 4 US Census-created regions: West, Midwest, South, Northeast) shouldn't it include states that certainly are part of the Northern US?  Likewise, couldn't we say that New Mexico, Arizona, half of California, and Hawaii (to an extent) are part of the Southern US?  Just a thought I had to stir up conversation.  Frank12 04:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Since the article doesn't cite any sources, who knows why some states and not others have been designated "Northern". Is this regional term in common use, other than for the historical "North" of colonial to Civil War times? If someone asks where another person is from, common regional answers might "the Midwest", "the Pacific Northwest", "the Northeast", "the South", "New England", etc. But would many people say "I'm from the North"? Personally, I grew up in Buffalo, NY, and now live in Seattle, WA. I might say that I'm a "northerner", but not "I live in the North" (as if it was as meaningful a statement as "I live in the South", which is a term commonly used today, very much). ..I fantasize about moving to Canada though. In any case, my point is, can anyone provide references and citations that demonstrate the reality of "Northern US" being a commonly used region term? And if not, perhaps this page should be about the historical "North" that fought the "South" in the Civil War, rather than something that exists in a meaningful way today. Pfly 07:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree the term is used only in opposition to "the South" and most often historically. It is of limited use in answering questions like "Where are you from?" since it covers so much of the country.

The Northwest should be included; many of the states were territories instead of states in the Civil War era, but they were Northern demographically and politically. But I'm not sure a map other than the Civil War maps does any good. --JWB (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Facts?
Clearly, this discussion page shows that there is no universal definition of the north (or for that matter, the south, midwest, etc).

So, I then wonder, why is there a section called "facts" which states the population of the north? What assumptions does this number contain? Is it appropriate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.5.96 (talk) 05:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)