Talk:Northern giant hornet/Archive 1

Info Request
I would really like to get some more details about this hornets venom into the article, if anybody can find any. I wasn't too successful in tuning up much more than some very techy chemical journal abstracts, and the information there really wasn't encyclopedic.

By the way, if anybody interested in this topic gets a chance to see the National Geographic Explorer program mentioned in this article, I highly recommend it. ClockworkTroll 22:57, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

An egregious omission in this otherwise seemingly good Wikipedia article is ANY discussion of the hornet's NEST !? (Yellowjackets often live underground, bald-/white-faced hornets in "football"-like enclosed tiered-combs nests in trees or bushes or under eaves, and European hornets can be in hollows of large trees or in hanging tiered-combs nests but unlike bald-faced hornets these have a full-comb-face-sized opening at the bottom (from one or two videos I've seen), not a small opening (which might be at, or on a side near, the bottom.)

I'm also impressed & surprised at the information saying that the giant hornet prays on mantisses --in the states, the praying mantis is pretty large (ultimately), and I think would easy dispatch a European hornet, e.g. (which, btw, I once saw attacking & killing a bald-faced hornet --the struggling pair dropped onto the street right before me!) ?! [2011-04-07] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.110.130 (talk) 15:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Sting Prevention and First Aid
Someone called Clockworksoul removed the sections that I added on sting prevention and first aid. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asian_giant_hornet&diff=265562689&oldid=265508344 I added them by translating verbatim from the Japanese wikipedia article on these Japanese hornets.--Timtak (talk) 19:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Killer Bees
I wonder if the Giant Hornet can be introduced into killer bee populations to control or even eliminate the killer bee problem. --Admiral Roo 10:14, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, you don't read many fables, do you? :)207.127.128.2 15:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose, but wouldn't that create a new, bigger problem? 152.163.101.6 14:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Killer bees are much better than giant hornets. Plus i dont think asian hornets can survive in killer bee areas.

History (and spectacular failures) has shown us that such biological control very often backfires, and the result tends to be two destructive invasive species instead of one. – ClockworkSoul 14:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Vespa mandarinia
This brings back memories when I was attending high school in Aichi Japan. During the spring and summer a Vespa mandarinia would occasionally fly into the classroom. When this happened class would stop and everyone would rush out of the room. Initially, not realizing that this was no ordinary Yellow Jacket I flicked one of the desk, rolled up a newspaper and swatted it outside like a baseball. After I was done I realized that everyone was looking at me like I was crazy and began questioned my foolish intent. After taking the time to listen, I realized I had just escaped what could have turned out to be a tragic ending to a common situation. Some of my friends told me that these hornets have been known to hunt birds, yet I have found no evidence of such an occurrence.
 * That's crazy. I'd be scared out of my mind... I can barely handle the wasps and bees we have HERE in Pennsylvania... I'm going to Japan this summer, and will be going to school there as a guest on occasion... How often did this Vespa mandarinia occurance happen to you? 68.70.136.127 07:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Damn, that's some scary ****. I wish I could genocide all hornets in the world, I really hate flying insects. --80.227.100.62 08:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know how Asian giant hornet detect an enemy ,victim and fare ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.146.104.32 (talk) 08:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Question
Does anyone know how long these hornets live? Is it one year or multiple years?

i hate hornets enough already
the first time i heard about this i saw it on tv and it was really scary. i hate yellowjackets and hornets enough because they are so annoying. but this one is actually just scary. ok, someone made a comment about introducing them to north america to fight killer bees.... NO. WHAT THE HELL DONT EVEN JOKE ABOUT THAT. The giant asian hornet lives for 6months an yes they are in the usa they have benn in kentucky for at least 3 years this spring i will contack the health deapartment when they come out again, the first time i saw them in kentucky i did not know what they were i moved to florida, saw a show about them,an now i live in kentucky,the only thing i can think of on how they got here,their are some asian own places next to them,this spring will be 3 years,so they are surving the winters of kentucky, this spring every body will know this to be true,my email is tim625aframe@yahoo.com an i am the only one who knows what they are up here, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.117.236.162 (talk) 22:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry - if the hornets follow traditional Kentucky etiquette, they'll extinct themselves through rampant inbreeding within the season. 173.55.45.142 (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you retarded? Why would you put your email up? and these hornets aren't in the US, they're only in Japan, don't be stupid...--71.251.25.49 (talk) 05:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Hornet
Hi, my name is Shawn and I live in Dayton, Ohio. I recently encountered what seems to be a large Japanese hornet in my back yard. I would like to know if they are a threat to my dogs or myself. I would also like to know if anyone else has encountered them in the U.S.? If so, what is the best way to exterminate them. Thank you.71.65.67.199 00:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Shawn - you might have a European hornet - see Characteristics of common wasps and bees and for info hornet. Only after you have identified the specimen, and determined that it is a threat to you (European hornets are perfectly safe), contact a local pest control company. If you need more help use my user page. Widefox 02:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Vespa mandarinia or V. velutina?
Vespa mandarinia is usually known as the Japanese hornet, whereas v.velutina is the Asian hornet.I'm not an expert, but it might be worth taking another look at the information in this article as it's potentially confusing. 62.25.109.195 15:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

more doubt about this
We stay in the Champawat district of Uttarakhand, India, at an altitude of about 6,500 feet. The locally called "tiger bee", which preys on bees especially and makes beekeeping a difficult endeavour in these parts, matches the description of the Asian giant tiger bee. A native Japanese person staying here tells me that the Suzumebachi is not the same as our local "Tiger bee": for the Japanese insect is yellow and brown, whereas this insect is orange and black. Moreover, the Japanese insect is liable to attack, being quite aggressive, whereas this insect does not seem to be aggressive. Also, the Japanese insect lives in some kind of hanging nest, whereas this one is said to nest in holes in the ground. And, the bands on this local insect's thorax are orange, not yellow, and the coloured lines are very thin indeed.

Also, our Japanese source says that while the Japanese do eat the larva of certain kinds of wasps, they do not eat the larvae of the Suzumebachi, but of smaller varieties. So this section on the culinary aspects of wasps in Japan may need to be moved to a different article. Sw.my (talk) 06:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

See this link: Vespa mandarinia: The "Tiger Bee" of Uttarakhand is a dark variant of the Japanese strain of Vespa mandarinia. A section on "Variants" could be added, with photos and descriptions of this and any other variants. Sw.my (talk) 03:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Honey bee nest raiding instinct
Here's a question. The Japanese hornet seems to be able to take out an entire European honey bee nest very efficiently and methodically. If the Japanese honey bee evolved to a point where can defend their nest so well (killing the scout before it can notify the others), how did the Japanese hornet still "know" how to do the raid once the European honey bee was introduced? After a while (before the European honey bee was introduced) I would think the hornet's nest-raiding instincts would go dormant if it was constantly failing generation after generation. And thus would eventually avoid bee nests all together. 65.213.220.62 19:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I would expect that either the Japanese honeybee defense is not perfect and does not always work (most prey animals have some defence against their predators and often the predator's hunting efficiency is pretty low, say 10%) and/or the hornet attacks other native social insects that do not have this defence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Contact person
It would bee helpfull to get a link to a person who could direct you to were you could see sutch a magnificent animal. Bengtjurs 20:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You can see them all over Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.251.226.41 (talk) 19:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Similar Language in National Geographic article
The text "it takes only a few of these hornets a few hours to exterminate the population of a 30,000-member hive, leaving a trail of severed insect heads and limbs" is remarkably similar to text from this 2002 National Geographic article: "a handful of the creatures can slaughter 30,000 European honeybees within hours, leaving a trail of severed insect heads and limbs." It's entirely possible that the NG article borrowed from this one, but maybe it deserves a look? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.220.254.66 (talk) 20:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Sighting
I would like to know if I should report a sighting of an Asian giant hornet? If so where and to who? It was seen in St. Mary's County, Maryland on May 7th 2008. It was seen by three people.--Olegal2 (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Sighting
I would like to know if I should report a sighting of an Asian giant hornet? If so where and to who? It was seen in St. Mary's County, Maryland on May 7th 2008. It was seen by three people.--Olegal2 (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Some sightings have been reported here but no citation was given. Does anyone have links to prove the sightings? --89.59.21.211 (talk) 07:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Sighting in Philadelphia, PA
I believe one of these hornets got into my house yesterday for the SECOND time. I was VERY surprised by the size of this hornet. This time, instead of releasing it outside, I have it in a jar so I could do research on what kind of hornet it is. The closest thing I could find in resemblence and size is the Asian giant hornet, then I saw there have been sightings of it on the east coast.

Does anyone know where or how I can get this hornet confirmed?? I still have it.

-May 26th, 2008, Bee sighting (talk) 13:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm seen very, very similar hornets, with the same body shape, almost the same markings, and definately the same size, at Dorney Park. I saw 2 there this year, and one last year. Does anyone know if there are similar large hornet species living in the north east United States? Because all these sightings are in relatively close proximity. --207.7.181.23 (talk) 16:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Some possible explanations could be the common European hornet or the Eastern cicada-killer wasp, both of which can grow quite large (though not as large as the Asian giant). The cicada-killer is commonly mistaken for the deadlier Asian giant because both insects appear abnormally large to the average person and both species have a tendency to kill and eat large bugs. It is remotely possible that you two have spotted Asian giant hornets in the US but I personally chalk it down to other large native wasp/hornet species. MahoganyCow (talk) 20:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Asian Giant Hornet
I have seen a hornet for several days flying around my house. Today i saw it fly right up in front of me and land on the ground and go in a hole caring another large bug. This hole is right by my house. Do Asian Hornets live or nest in the ground and if so how do I get ride of them? Charlotte N.C. Holly74.235.37.132 (talk) 20:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi, Holly. What you saw was an Eastern cicada killer wasp, which can grow be to quite large and lives in the Eastern US. They're solitary insects (only 1 per nest), and it won't bother you if you leave it alone. – ClockworkSoul 01:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

STUNG
I want it duly noted that I just got stung about five hours ago by one of these bastards, and yeah, it fucking sucks. I live in Philadelphia, PA, and I swear I thought the damn thing was a small hummingbird, which I why I didn't run. It kept buzzing closer and closer until it was dive-bombing my hair, and then it stung me, right square in the right deltoid. I think I was too close to its nest and didn't know it. I got kicked full force in the groin by a professional woman rugby player a few years ago, and that doesn't close to this bastard's sting. My arm feels like it's melting all the way to the bone. It's twitching right now and I have little control over it, because if I flex it even in the slightest, the pain explodes like a nebula inside, all over it, up and down in pulsing waves, like lava. I screamed like a little girl and then bellowed from the agony, scratched and scratched, and finally cut the sting site a little with my pocket knife and pressed an ice cube on it. That did VERY little. If you see one of these things, fucking run the other way and jump in a pond. I am not joking. The bullet ant can't possibly be any worse than this.

Japanese Hornets in St. Mary's Co. Maryland
I have seen this breed of hornet on the grapevines in my back yard. They are very agressive and once a friend of mine put one in a microwave oven for 30 seconds on high, and when the door was opened it flew away. That's tough! My question is does anyone know how this migration may have taken place or are they no just native to Japan?

Signed, Jim Young jim.young235@gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.9.14.131 (talk) 15:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Jim. There are several species of hornet native to the US that grow very large and are commonly mistaken for the Asian giant hornet. The first is the (confusingly-named) "giant hornet", Vespa crabro germana, which were somehow introduced in the mid-1800s. These can get very large and can be found across the US, especially in the central eastern part. Another is the "cicada killer wasp", which can also grow frighteningly large. There has never, however, been an actual verified sighting of the Asian giant hornet in the US. – ClockworkSoul 19:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I verify my fucking sighting of it! No other hornet or stinging insect could possibly be that fucking big! The one that stung me was bright orange and the sting was monumentally agonizing! Philadelphia, PA, come one, come all.
 * Did it look like this? That's V. crabro, and it can get big. Take a look at the web site for the Entomological Research Mueseum for more info. – ClockworkSoul 21:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Added Prevention and First Aid advice
Now that I am aware of how dangerous these things are, and like someone above, I have been blase and unaware of this danger till recently, I have added some information on the prevention and first aid treatment of stings from the Japanese wikipedia article on these beasts.
 * I am slightly scared that I might be sued if the information is incorrect. The Japanese article contains a disclaimer. Can I add one here? I am not a doctor.
 * The Japanese wikipedia article lacks references. Wikipedia articles do not count as sources. Even so, I believe that it is a good idea to keep this information due to the potentially life saving import.
 * The wording is poor. Please feel free to improve. --Timtak (talk) 16:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually removing this section, per our no medical advice policy. – ClockworkSoul 21:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

82.41.242.142
"Get the hell outta there" isn't relevant to the article. PÆonU (talk) 10:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC) ==how the giant hornet defense it self== by stinging it's enemy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.154.131.65 (talk) 04:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Extermination.
I have to wonder if families of Japanese Hornet victims & owners of honey bees in Asia have tried cutting down the population by going after their nests neavily armored with blow torches or chemical sprays that cause ipotancy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.77.255 (talk) 06:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

How to stop giant hornets from entering and destroying bee hives
One way to stop the hornet's attack on bee populations is to make the entrances to bee hives too small for the hornet's to enter but just big enough to let bee's into their hive. There are some easy ways to retrofit hives like with mesh wire or structures reducing the gaps into the hives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.159.40 (talk) 22:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Japanese name
The standard Japanese dictionaries don't have a reference for the Giant Hornet as oo-suzumehachi (neither has the Japanese artikel on ja.wikipedia.org), and although googling for the term yields some results in Japanese, it doesn't seem to be more than a colloquial expression.

I rewrote the etymological part based on the Japanese article.

--Semper discens (talk) 00:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia article does, in fact, mention oosuzumeBachi (note the 'b' or 'tenten', rather than the 'h' you had; that might explain your unsuccessful searching there and elsewhere). Actually, that same Wikipedia article seems to indicate that suzumebachi (as opposed to oosuzumebachi) is in fact a more general term for large hornets than this article suggests, and that oosuzmebachi is the correct Japanese name for vespa mandarinia.

That squares with my experience of the use of the term, suzumebachi, in colloquial Japanese, where large hornets of any sort can be called suzumebachi (yellow-headed, orange-headed... different sizes - clearly different species). Then again, I've never heard anyone talk about oosuzumebachi... ever!

(By the way, I found a nest yesterday and am going to go out and photograph it this evening! ...wish me luck!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.9.101.65 (talk) 00:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Missing reference?
Several paragraphs of this article look like they have been written with the BBC show "Buddha, Bees and the Giant Hornet Queen" as a reference, especially the "Predation" and "Native honey bees" sections. Should the show be added as an external reference to the article? Khim1 (talk) 09:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Similarities with National Geographic article "Hornets from Hell"
Phrasing from the National Geographic article Hornets from Hell appears to have been copied with minor changes into the text of the article.

From Hornets from Hell: "...a handful of the creatures can slaughter 30,000 European honeybees within hours, leaving a trail of severed insect heads and limbs."

From the article: "It takes only a few of these hornets a few hours to exterminate the population of a 30,000-member hive, leaving a trail of severed insect heads and limbs."

The Wikipedia sentence does not have a citation to the better written original from National Geographic. A suggested improvement: first, quote and cite the original; second, replace "only a few" (National Geographic: "a handful") with a numerical estimate from the scientific literature; and, third, replace "a few hours" (National Geographic: "hours") with an estimate from the scientific literature. The National Geographic mentions 30 hornets and 3 hours, respectively.

FLengyel (talk) 19:21, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I recommend fixing it. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 00:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with most of what you folks said, but I went further; the article is far from perfect now, but I have butchered it somewhat, corrected some nonsense about the sizes of the hornets relative to the bees, and why that makes them sting-proof, and rewritten a lot of the NG journalese. Feel welcome to crit the changes. JonRichfield (talk) 07:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Sting stats and phrasing
The 3 citations (in fact only 2 but one has been entered twice) do not support the statistic of deaths by this hornet in Japan. Both articles refer to the deaths in Japan from anaphylactic shock as the result of stings from bees and wasps, not a single species. Stats specific to this hornet may or may not be available but certainly the citations show the figure of 30-40 in the article is too high.

I also get the impression that writing this figure after the fact that the venom can be fatal even without an allergic reaction is likely to make people think the stats include deaths without an allergic reaction. Is this not sensationalising the sting? or at least exaggerating the danger to people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlanBrod (talk • contribs) 11:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Translation of Japanese name
The fact that Japanese does not make the distinction between bees and wasps which exists in English should not lead to all names being translated as "bee". A better translation would be Giant Sparrow Wasp. I suspect the same is true of Korean and Chinese but do not have the expertise to be categoric.AlanBrod (talk) 12:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Possible basis for a fictional insect weapon?
The tracker-jacker is likely a modification of the Asian giant hornet, or the Japanese subspecies. Yura87 (talk) 20:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

More on the Asian Giant Hornet
This hornet is the world’s largest hornet! This article could use some expansion in the evolutionary development of some of its defining features. The hornet’s large stinger and body size is mentioned, but its family tree and possibilities for how these traits evolved was left out. The article should include how these astonishing adaptations arose. This article should also expand on its geographic distribution section. It needs to mention in what areas specifically this hornet is found and how this insect is viewed culturally. Because this is the world’s largest hornet, it is important for the reader to understand how people around the world view this insect. A brief comparison between this hornet and other species of smaller hornets could also prove useful to the reader so they can realize how extraordinary and unique this one is.

Probertsg (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Needs more information
As mentioned above, this article needs more information. This article lacks information about the life cycle of the species and information about reproduction. Amgoldberg15 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Three is me (talk) 04:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)A section on the seasonal habits of the hornets should be included so that the reader knows how the hornets survive in different temperatures and fully understands the life cycles of the hornets.

Peer Review
I found this article to be very well put together. The most distinctive thing I noted about this article was the wealth of information presented, gathered from a variety of sources. I thought the organization and structure of the article was great, with many detailed sections. The formatting of the text itself, including italicizing and linking, was done well. For this article, I made about 4 minor grammatical edits to the sections of the ‘Overview,’ ‘Nesting,’ and ‘Colony Cycle’ sections. With a lot of research and well-written material, this article is very good and has the potential to be further expanded.

Sandyamuchimilli (talk) 16:57, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I have captured a Giant Asian Hornet at my home in NC
Please help, I have captured in a jar, what looks like a Giant Asian Hornet, who can I call to verify this HUGE hornet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.159.104 (talk) 03:03, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Invading Europe and North America
According to Killer Hornets from Hell' they have also hitchhiked on ships to America and Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.57.247 (talk) 17:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

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Serious issue regarding subspecies, and need for merge
It has come to my attention that in both of the most recent revisions of the genus Vespa, by Carpenter & Kojima in 1997 and by Archer in 2012, they do not recognize japonica as a valid subspecies. Ordinarily, that might not be difficult to accommodate, except in this case, people have created an entirely separate WP article - at Japanese giant hornet - for a former taxon that has essentially not existed for over 20 years. WP is not supposed to promote outdated taxonomy, and given that the world's few actual authorities on hornets do not recognize japonica, there is no justification for continuing to treat it as if it were a subspecies. Accordingly, I am planning a merge of the "Japanese giant hornet" article, and salvageable material therein, to this article, with the explanation that the former subspecies has not been considered valid since 1997. I'm giving a heads-up, essentially, before proceeding with the merge. Dyanega (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm not a hymenopterist, but NCBI and iNaturalist both list the subspecies. In any event, the Japanese giant hornet article does not say it is Vespa mandarinia japonica but a morpha of Vespa mandarinia that is sometimes called Vespa mandarinia mandarinia.  BioLib lists V. m. mandarinia as a valid subspecies, but most databases do not list morphas or other informal taxa.  The Japanese giant hornet article also lacks a taxobox, implying it is not for a subspecies.  Seems like they are separate. --Nessie (talk) 14:26, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Invasion from Canada
https://www.khq.com/news/asian-giant-hornet-discovered-in-washington-near-canadian-border/article_8576d120-2362-11ea-ae13-dbf17254e337.html

Keith Henson (talk) 20:49, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2020
The reference to these insects causing 50 deaths in Japan per year relies on a New York Post article that has no reference and cites no source. It also contradicts the body of the article which states that total deaths in Japan from all insects stands at about 26 per year. I suggest removing the statement and the reference to the NYP. 105.186.152.135 (talk) 22:22, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Seems reasonable, given that the Japanese press report does, as you point out, contradict this claim. In the event a good primary source is found for the statistic, then it should go into the section discussing stings/venom. Dyanega (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Dyanega please dont forget to change "answered=no" to "answered=yes" that way it gets taken out of the edit request queue. Nithintalk 22:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

butchering with impunity???
"After butchering the bees with impunity..." -- Really?? Any chance you're getting a little too involved in this topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.210.205.236 (talk) 21:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Any chance "butchering" is the most accurate (best) term for this sentence? Should a writer, or a scientist imitator decide? Dry and dusty lingo is a virtue nowhere of virtue.  --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:6C86:DAB:7555:9739 (talk) 23:49, 4 May 2020 (UTC) Just Saying

Need to Merge With Japanese Giant Hornet
As the Asian Giant Hornet has recently ascended into popularity, there is an increasing need to merge these two articles as to avoid widespread confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmoney7107 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Merging the two articles is sensible, the problem is that it will not be a particularly easy merge to accomplish. I note that people have already mistakenly tried to suggest that it is the Japanese color form that was found in North America, depsite a lack of evidence for this precise a point of origin. Until and unless such evidence is made known, it should be assumed that the only place to discuss the North American reports is in the main mandarinia article. In the meantime, do we have any broader support for going ahead with the merge? Dyanega (talk) 21:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The press is stating that colonies have been found of origins from Korea and Japan, so it doesn't seem proper to use the Japanese article as a place to put it. -- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 10:16, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I have just been informed that another researcher has a manuscript in press revising the genus Vespa, and I expect to receive a copy for review shortly. If the new research agrees that "japonica" is not a valid taxon, then I will proceed with the merge. Dyanega (talk) 00:46, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Even if it isn't a valid taxon, it can still have an article, since it is a population, and contains localized information. You could rename it "Asian giant hornets of/in Japan" but that seems unnecessarily long name for an article. -- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 10:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Too long for an article, but possible for a section within the main article. The impending revision treats "japonica" as a synonym, so I expect to be moving ahead with the merge later today; it's likely to take several iterations to shift all the relevant material, and the main article is in a bit of a mess at the moment, which isn't going to help. Dyanega (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I’m inclined to disagree that merging these articles is a good idea; what is the reason for the merge? The JGH page isn’t too short, or requiring context, and isn’t a duplicate of anything; if there is any overlap then it should be dealt with by summarizing where necessary, not dumping it into another article (or is the plan to just blank and redirect?)
 * The reason given here is "widespread confusion" and "not a valid taxon" (perhaps); those aren’t reasons to merge, they are reasons to clarify: if the JGH is a significant population (and with a history of being regarded as a separate species) then it is notable in itself. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:09, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * PS: Also,, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but "I expect to be moving ahead with the merge later today", when the discussion isn't finished, and showed little consensus before, isn't really the best way to approach these things. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:12, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing any reason for someone not to attempt the merge. Species get housed on one page and the renamed old titles "lose" their wiki-notability for a standalone page when scientists decide they were not truly separate. Historical nomenclature changes just get mentioned in whatever article they are in. This page already is clear that V. m. japonica is a former subspecies, and the other has said the two have been treated as synonymical since 1997, so that should be the end of any discussion on if a merge should be done. As Dyanega mentions, the tricky part is appropriately merging the content. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, the tricky part is merging the content, and this is over 20 years overdue now. I will also point out that the pending revision does not recognize any subspecies at all within mandarinia, so as soon as that is formally published the text will also be changed to explain that the names "magnifica" and "nobilis" are also obsolete. With three authorities in ~25 years all in agreement, there's no longer a justification for treating the Japanese wasps as something separate; that just creates confusion. Dyanega (talk) 21:05, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe I've skimmed over where it was linked, but which one is the most current pending revision? I've seen the other two, but I don't think I've seen the third one linked yet. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It's still under review, and I'm one of the reviewers. The hope is that it will be published in 2020, and I will certainly link it here when it goes public. Dyanega (talk) 22:45, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, so nothing we can really discuss right now. Either way, the other two alone already would be enough to move ahead. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:48, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * So, are you saying there is some criterion at WPProject:Insects (or somewhere) that covers this? Because WP:MERGE says something different (as outlined). Also (and help me out here, because I'm no expert on insects) what does V. mandarinia look like? I've found images of V.m magnifica and V.m nobilis (here, halfway down), but most of the images in Commons titled V. mandarinia are actually V. m japonica. Moonraker12 (talk) 00:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The point is that japonica, mandarinia, nobilis, and magnifica are all names referring to what the world authorities agree are color morphs of the exact same species. Not subspecies, color morphs. They are not independently notable entities; there is one species, and all of the information for that species should be in one article, regardless of which names have been used historically for these morphs. Merging is not a bold edit, it's almost 30 years behind the science. Dyanega (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Also if anyone wasn't aware, WP:SPECIESOUTCOMES is pretty clear the species name (or any taxonomy) needs to be correct and valid. The subspecies names have been corrected to non-existent, and subsequent article changes for such occurrences are made all the time as non-controversial moves. WP:FAUNA and related guidance pages spell out why, though they're also not going to dive into all the idiosyncrasies of taxonomic literature. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * That's only a way to merge the articles, and a way to name the articles, but, not a requirement to merge or rename articles, if the WP:ARTICLETITLE is named descriptively (ie. Japanese giant hornet can be treated as a description, for very large hornets in Japan), and the population being discussed in the article meets WP:GNG, then the article can stand on its own, without merging or renaming. Ofcourse, accuracy could be expanded by say calling it Japanese Asian giant hornets, which would indicate a population group by using the plural, using the common name of the species, and an adjective for the region. Does the Japanese article fail GNG? Is local information ill-served by having its own article, instead of having WP:SUMMARYSTYLE sections of it in the parent topic and of the parent in the child topic? When did every lineage and local population have to be documented in one article? (we have articles for different breeds of dogs, horses, invasive species populations, farmed plant lineages, farmed animal lineages, one person's cells sold commercially, etc) -- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 08:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I’m almost annoyed, as well. I see that, despite having three clear objections to this proposal, and despite the discussion still being open (ie. not closed by a disinterested party), you’ve gone ahead and merged it anyway (I say merged; you’ve blanked about 8kb of material at the JGH page and added barely two sentences from it here). If you were going to do that regardless, why bother opening a discussion in the first place? And "It's still under review, and I'm one of the reviewers" positively shouts "Conflict of Interest". Moonraker12 (talk) 10:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Moonraker, at the end of the day, no legitimate objections were given that would overturn editing norms for when real-world taxonomic changes happen for non-controversial moves like that even if someone wants to erroneously claim it was controversial. While irrelevant to what's in the article right now, that Dyanega is a reviewer on a publication is not a conflict of interest (an author would be). WP:EXPERT has guidance on that, and that doesn't change what's already been in motion for awhile now. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the guideline links, anyway (which go some way to explaining the rationale, here). Though I'm still dubious as to why a subject that gets 200,000 hits in an internet search (though I note the first option is to buy one on E-bay!) is non-notable as a WP article. The fact that there is interest in a subject warrants an explanation, even if the explanation is that it's only "a color form of ... the Asian giant hornet" and "has been treated as a synonym of the subspecies V. m. mandarinia since 1997". As it stands now, a casual search for the term (following a news story, for example) ends up on a different page, with barely an explanation why. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Search hits are not a reliable indicator of wiki-notability, especially when dealing with organism common names, and is a common mistake in subjects like this. That is instead primarily based on what I described about correct naming above and gets into issues other guidance on common names gives. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * PS: I’m also still confused why the images in Commons purporting to be V. mandarinia turn out on examination to be described as V.m japonica, while the image at the top of this page (a V. m magnifica) looks very different. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Sort of in reverse order: (1) "magnifica" looks different from mandarinia mandarinia because it's a different color form; that is in essence the only reason magnifica has ever been treated as a separate taxon. Modern taxonomy no longer relies strictly upon external appearance, however, and that's why the "subspecies" like magnifica are being eliminated. (2) the form called "japonica" is not now, nor ever has been, strictly limited to Japan, which is one of the primary reasons that it was synonymized back in 1997 while magnifica and nobilis were not. Standard taxonomic practice is that for something to be a subspecies, it has to NOT show any geographic overlap with other putative subspecies, and that was very obviously not true of "japonica". (3) The pending publication of yet another revision only serves to confirm the revisions in 1997 and 2012 that both treated "japonica" as a synonym. My "insider knowledge" was in fact what was PREVENTING me from merging these articles previously, because I knew that a new revision was forthcoming, and did not want to go ahead with a merge and then find that the new revision resurrected japonica as a valid taxon, and then have to re-build the JGH article from scratch. It does happen to be something of a coincidence that I received this paper in the past week (unless the authors pushed it out when they did because of the "murder hornet" nonsense), but my going forward with the merge more than 9 months after it was first proposed most certainly does not represent a COI. (4) That I was ultimately only able to extract a few sentences worth of sourced material that was NOT duplicated between the two articles should tell you that they did NOT merit independent status in the first place. If most of the content of the JGH article had been novel, then your argument for maintaining it as a separate entity would be a LOT stronger, but since the two articles were nearly identical in content, then I don't see why the merge should be opposed. Dyanega (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Media coverage?
Add a section on the recent sensationalized media coverage of their presence in North America? Yoleaux (talk) 20:07, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:RECENTISM is kind of an issue there. The first paragraph of Asian_giant_hornet has a little on this, but beyond that, I'm not sure what would be of encyclopedic value. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

"former subspecies"
What does "former subspecies" mean? How could it now be no longer a subspecies if it once was a subspecies?77Mike77 (talk) 23:06, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It's been downgraded taxonomically to a color form, not a subspecies. I agree, maybe it should just say that in the lede, and leave the technical discussion for later. Dyanega (talk) 00:05, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've kind of been wondering about that being there in the lead too. Normally we wouldn't even mention that something used to be a subspecies unless there's some really noteworthy history to the nomenclature, so just having a bit about that in the body wouldn't bother me at all. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)


 * "formerly considered subspecies" / "formerly considered as a subspecies" / or some variation ? -- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 08:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Do Asian Giant Hornets Really Eat Bee Thoraxes?
This "fact" has made its way into the media and is being passed along as fact. But every video I've seen of them attacking bees shows that what they eat are the larva. Is anyone knowledgeable enough to add something about this, whether it's true or false? Genepoz (talk) 09:26, 12 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The adult hornets will imbibe fluids from the thorax of decapitated bees, but they do not consume them, so "eat" is a misleading word. Dyanega (talk) 17:07, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Lazy Jargon & too many Lazy Links
For example: "...is distinguished from other hornets by its pronounced clypeus and large genae."  I am so sure. Good writing (communication) is not easy.  --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:6C86:DAB:7555:9739 (talk) 23:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC) Just saying.


 * Clypeus and genae refer to anatomical parts peculiar to insects that most people don't know about, so a change in wording is unlikely to be helpful. A labeled picture might help.  USDA New Pest Response Guidelines: Vespa mandarinia Asian giant hornet p.26 Figure 3-3 A (currently reference #4 in the article) is a front-on picture of the Asian giant hornet's head with the clypeus and gena labeled, and 3-3 D-F are pictures of the "faces" of similar hornets showing the differences. That picture quickly made the meaning clear to me.--Wikimedes (talk) 06:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Wording
'Applying poisons or fires at night is an effective way of exterminating a colony' I feel this is a little too biased, I mean, say for example a great white shark page, you wouldn't talk about killing it, would you?-Thanks Ooh Saad (talk) 09:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Ooh Saad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linear Seal (talk • contribs) 10:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Perception in 2020
Now that murder hornets are becoming more and more popular in media, I decided to add on about how they are being perceived in this year. I wanted to show how the public sees them more as a threat to them rather than the environment, which is not the case. I also talked about the government and experts and how they are all communicating about this new problem. LeahToomey (talk) 04:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Anaphylaxis frequency
#Effects on humans says:


 * Fatalities from envenomation are primarily related to anaphylactic shock

I consider it very unlikely that most deaths are due to anaphylaxis. The high average number of stings for deadly cases means it has to be the toxin - and a large amount of it - that causes most deaths. I'm sure I read somewhere that it's usually kidney failure due to the kidneys having to filter out way too much cell breakdown product - in other words it's the cytolytic toxin - but I can't find that source right now.

(I should also note that this article does support the allergic idea but it has no citations: http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/cpr/entomology/facts-about-the-asian-giant-hornet-05-14-20)

Invasive Spices (talk) 02:46, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have further examined Yanagawa et all 2009 and it is clearly the source for the claims in that paragraph. However a further examination of the paper shows that the authors did not have information supporting some of their claims. Specifically they cite the papers they number 1-3 (Vetter Johansson Mosbech) for the claim that V. mandarinia as showing most deaths to be due to "anaphylaxis or sudden cardiac arrest" and yet none of those papers says that. Only Vetter mentions Mandarinia, and only once, to mention in passing one molecule contained in its venom. Anaphylaxis due to other species is a subject of all three papers but never mandarinia.
 * This paper does indeed claim anaphylaxis occurs and and does indeed perform a cumulative review of case studies which provide some of the other numbers they claim. These claims appear to be correct.
 * It has come to be my belief Yanagawa et all 2009 describes a deceptively inflated field of evidence to support inflated claims. Invasive Spices (talk) 22:55, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The article currently says "Most victims enter anaphylaxis," citing Yanagawa. What is the definition of a "victim"? This appears to say that most people stung by this hornet enter anaphylaxis. I suspect that is not true. —&hairsp;BarrelProof (talk) 01:19, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that "victim" here means someone who died, not someone who was stung. I will edit the article to reflect that. —&hairsp;BarrelProof (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've agreed with you in the section above (about common names) because common knowledge is the defining factor there. However this here is about exact numbers and facts.
 * In this case "victim" means anyone who was stung by an AGH and got medical treatment for it. Not just those who died. Invasive Spices (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Hornet attacks kill dozens in China

 * Hundreds of people stung in Shaanxi province by swarms of giant insects believed to have multiplied over warm summer, The Guardian, 26 September 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terraflorin (talk • contribs) 10:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)