Talk:Northumbria

MODERN NORTHUMBRIA
There is a slight mistake in this article. The modern Northumbria region (as used by the tourist board) is primarily Northumberland and County Durham. Cumbria is in North-West England (but does border Northumberland and Co. Durham).

Cumbria was however part of Northumbria for a short while in between being part of Rheged and later Strathclyde Penrithguy 23:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

In the modern use of "Northumbria" it is non-inclusive of Cumbria, which is counted as Northwest England and not Northeast England/Northumbria.

Flag
Can someone give me more details aboput this blue and white cross flag? I have only ever seen the yellow and red flag flying? It is flown quite widely, and is also used even more frequently as a car sticker. I have no recollection of ever seeing the cross flag.

Grinner 08:21, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

The Flags of the World website has an extensive discussion on the Northumberland flag. Several alternatives to the red-and-gold flag are discussed, but none of them seem to be in actual use. No mention is made of a blue-and-white cross flag, though.

--McMullen 17:12, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think I shall remove the reference to the blue and white cross flag then. Grinner 08:47, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

It seems that the gold and red striped flag shown here is actually the flag of Northumberland county (to be flown only in that county) and not the flag of Northumbria. The older flag of Northumberia could be inserted if available. Let's remove the current image.Nesbit 05:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Would the kingdom of Northumbria have flown a flag as I have never heard of any of the other pre-conquest kingdoms of England having used flags in the modern sense. Penrithguy 23:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The red and yellow striped flag must be the flag of Northumbria as the Northumbria police and Fire services (which cover Northumberland and Tyne & Wear) use the stripes in their emblems. Though I can see how if it was the flag of Northumberland it might be confused as a flag of Northumbria; and of course there's the fact that Tyne & Wear is majoritively formed of former parts of Northumberland. As a side note, I thought the blue and white flag was Durham's flag(?). SKC

Dialect
User:80.44.76.119 changed
 * Three major Northumbrian dialects are Geordie, Mackem and Pitmatic.

To
 * Three major Northumbrian dialects are Geordie, County Durham/Wearside (which is derogatorily refered to as Mackem by Geordies) and Northumbrian (ie from Northumberland)which again is given a derogatory name (Pitmatic) by Geordies.

I don't think that mackem and pitmatic are derogatory - they are widely used by people who speak with said accents. So I reverted this bit. Grinner 09:56, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)


 * Mackem is the Sunderlanders' word and refers to the practice of shipping unfinished boats to Tyneside to be finished. "We mak 'em and they tak 'em" as the ship builders would have put it. It's not derogatory. I've not heard of 'pitmatic' but 'pityakker' (literally miner) is pretty derogative.GordyB 15:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Are Scouse and Tyke really Northumbrian dialects as opposed to them all being examples of North of England dialects? I suppose Yorkshire (Tyke) dialect probably has things in common with Northumbrian due to the historial Scandinavian influences but Scouse? To me this inclusion seems strange. Does anyone better qualified than me have an opinion?Reynardthefox 23:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Scouse has no real connection with the Northumnrian dialect as the area around modern day Liverpool was only under Northumbrian rule for a short period and also the Scouse accent/dialect has a larger Irish influence so I have deleted Scouse from the article. Personally i wouldnt think of the Yorkshire dialect as being Northumbrian either. It would bel ike saying that the Cumbrian and Lancashire dialects were as well although they are all northern English dialects ands in some parts of Cumbria there is a Northumbrian influence. Penrithguy 23:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yorkshire was part of 'Northumbria' (which means lands North of the Humber). The Humber flows through Yorkshire. It is not inaccurate to refer to Yorkshire as a Northumbrian varient of English though it does seem rather odd to a modern ear as Northumbria these days is more commonly used to mean the North East which does not include Yorkshire.

It sounds completely ridiculous to include Yorkshire dialects as Northumbrian just because a few words are in common - far more dialect words would be similar between say East Midland dialects and for example South Yorkshire speech but you wouldn't say people in Nottinghamshire speak Northumbrian.This needs major sorting out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.127.10 (talk) 23:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Although Yorkshire and North East accents are quite different from each other. They do (to my ear) merge in Middlesborough where the local accent is half way between Newcastle and Leeds.

There is a very strong connection between West Cumbrian dialects and Geordie. 'Gan yam' is the local varient of 'gan hyem'.GordyB 15:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

'''The Yorkshire dialect sounds significantly different from the other Northumbrian dialects due to different dialects preserving words and phrases from different times. I.e. Geordie English has preserved more Anglo-Saxon sounds, terms, words and phrases whereas Yorkshire and southern Durham dialects have preserved more Middle-to-Early Modern English sounds, terms, words and phrases. There is significant evidence to support that, most strikingly around the dialectical forms of the word "you".'''SKC

Also, Yorkish has more Norse influences than the Northumbrian dialect, the dialects of Northumberland are closer to Old English. Yorkish is similar and has a similar accent in many ways. DR. Martin Hesselius 10:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful (indeed it would make the material comprehensible) if, in the section on language, the variant pronunciations of book were rendered in phonetic script.

"An example is the Geordie 'gan hyem' (to go home), which sounds identical to the Danish 'gå hjem', and means the same." Sounds even very German: "geh heim". -- 80.135.231.41 (talk) 16:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

University of Northumbria
There is no longer a University of Northumbria campus in Carlisle It was recently transferred to the University of Central Lancashire

Scope of this Article relative to history of Northumberland
I propose that we limit the scope of this article to the history of the kingdom and earldom of Northumbria. Later history (from 1100? on) should be covered in the History of Northumberland article. Also, the article on Northumbria in the Early Middle Ages should be folded into this article on Northumbria.

sounds sensible, whoever you are Johnbod 01:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Without responding to the earlier proposals for splitting up this portion of the article (I don't care either way), some of the history that is here is nonsensical and needs to be thoroughly reworked for whichever article it ends up in. The section describes Northumbrian sectarian volatility following the Restoration but says it was pacified after Scotland's King James accepted the English crown. As any student of English history knows, the aforementioned "Restoration" was the placement of James' grandson Charles II on the thrown. So the events are out of order and the cause and effect make no sense. The entire section is also unsourced. Once that has been fixed, I'd like to add a section on the Northumbrian contribution to the major settlement trends of North America. But let's see someone unravel the section on Northumbria proper before I add any further confusion.Ftjrwrites (talk) 18:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it somewhat. The previous version actually was talking about the restoration of peace after the union of the crowns, not The Restoration. But no matter, it still needed some work. Nesbit (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For sure this should only be about the Kingdom and at a stretch the Earldom... what came to be known as Northumberland was essentially a small slice of this kingdom at its peak and when you consider that York was its capital, then Northumberland area wasn't actually the center of this thing. - Yorkshirian (talk) 18:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Scandinavia
...Due to the roots of Northumbrian dialects, it is often said that visitors from Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands often find it much easier to understand the English of Northumbria than the rest of the country. An example is the Geordie 'gan hyem' (to go home), which sounds identical to the Danish 'gan hjem', and means the same.

I live in Newcastle and I often hear this. Whilst the 'gan hyem' example is commonly used to support this assertion, I wondered if scandinavians do actually find Northumbrian english easier to understand, or whether this is just a piece of hearsay. I've just done a quick search on Google and I haven't found anything that would neccesarily seem to support this. It might help to have a source quoted for this section.

Moa nalo 31 July 2006

"gå hjem" is Danish for "gan hjem" (and "gang hame" in Scots :} 82.41.4.66 21:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed this on the Wikipedia Danish language page :} Danish was once widely spoken in the northeast counties of England. Many Danish derived words such as gate (gade) for street, still survive in Yorkshire and other parts of eastern England colonized by Danish Vikings. The city of York was once the Danish settlement of Jorvik.82.41.4.66 00:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

heres some info on the Danes in Eastern England in the late Dark Ages http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab86
 * }82.41.4.66 00:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Scandinavians do in a sense '''find it easier to understand northeastern English. Though they do recognise the odd word it is actually the TONE they recognise. Northeastern English is more tonal than standard English, which is more akin to the Scandinavian languages, specifically Swedish language. It must be noted that although the Vikings and their language (Old Norse) massively altered pronunciation and introduced new words, the bulk of the northeastern dialect actually retains Old English sounds and words. The "gan" of "gan hyem" comes from Old English "gān", with the "hyem" coming from Old Norse "hjem".'''

I have to disagree with this, i have spoken to many Scandinavian students in and around Sunderland University and they (like many not from the region) sometimes struggle to understand the dialect and accent, Western TV and culture has definately altered the ear and i cannot speak with them in the same way i would we a local person in a less formal way. gazh 14 Apr 2007 12:30

I am of Swedish descent and all the Swedes of my family recognise our tone and the rhythm of our speech even when they don't recognise the majority of the words being spoken. Much like the way Frieslanders (tone and rhythm-wise) are most similar to east Anglians. It is however the Danish who are perhaps most in tune with our tone and rhythm. The very way we speak was altered and established by the Danish vikings.


 * Well maybe that is true with the rhythm and tone, but in my experineces when speaking to the students at Sunderland from Scandinavia, they struggled with the broad accent, if i wanted them to understand me i had to speak more RP and slow. Gazh 13:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Map discussion
Yorkshirian recently added this new version of an old map to this article; it was removed by Deacon of Pndapetzim and re-added by Yorkshirian. I'd like to replace it with this map instead, which doesn't use boundaries. The changes were made to several articles, so to centralize discussion, please post at Talk:Mercia if you have an opinion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Currently the article has neither of these maps. It really ought to have a map showing all of "Britain and Ireland"/"the Atlantic Archipelago"/"the Anglo-Celtic Isles" or "the British-Irish Isles" (take your pick) and then Northumbria's location. __meco (talk) 20:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Understanding the dialect
I am originally from South Shields (Soo Shiels in Geordie) but live in Denmark. There is no way I can say that it was easier for the Danes (nor Norwegians or Swedes) to understand my 'English'. In fact, it was always easier for them to understand a southern English speaker for the simple reason Scandinavians learn English not Northumbrian/Geordie! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cærurfa (talk • contribs) 16:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Origin of name
Where does the term "Northumbria" come from? Is there some link with the Roman Umbria regio? --Cantalamessa (talk) 11:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No relation, it comes from the River Humber and was coined by Bede to describe the northern Anglian kingdom, which was separated from the central one (Mercia) by the Humber. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * An earlier version of the name is North-humbria, which would be derived from the Humber like Angus said. --Merovingian (T, C) 11:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Excuse me if I investigate further: is there some root in the Humber term which can connect this river with the central Italy regio? Because, in (pre)historic times, a piece of Umbria was covered by the lacus Umber. --Cantalamessa (talk) 08:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

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date 653
Can anyone tell why the infobox says 653 as an establishment date when the article says that Northumbria was formed in 607? Also, in the timeline article there is no mentioning of 653. If it is the establishment date of the kingdom, shouldn't it be there? --小龙 (Timish) # xiǎolóng de xìnxiāng  14:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Now it does say 604. The reason why there are 2 different dates is that Northumbria emerged 2 times. First when Æthelfrith, the king of Bernicia, became also King of Deira in 604 and the second time when Oswald of Bernicia re-united the 2 Kingdoms in 634. Oh and then the kingdom got split again and Deira was reconquered in 654/5. 80.121.87.205 (talk) 03:06, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Kingdom of Northumbria
Is there any great feeling for moving this article to Kingdom of Northumbria, its just been moved and reverted (by myself) as I did not see any discussion for a proposed move. Jim Sweeney (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

And since when there's discussion to sticky it here? Someone just created this page 5 years ago with this name and just no one had moved it yet. As every article about a former kingdom has kingdom in it's name, I believe this article should be moved or you should start renaming every article that starts winf with Kingdom in it's title.

Start by here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_kingdoms -Ilhador- (talk) 23:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Not a good idea as it's about more than the Kingdom of Northumbria. Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Ynglis?
It is not really true to say that the Scots version of English was called Ynglis. In a time before spelling was standardised the word 'English' was spelled at the least half a dozen different ways. Inglis and Ynglis were indeed used in Scotland, but then they were in England too, along with Anglish, Englisc etc etc. Modern Scottish nationalists like to promote the idea that 'Scots' is or was a seperate language from English and write about Inglis and Ynglis; it is however historic and linguistic nonesense. Scots (except when it meant Gaelic) has always just been English, but with its own regional accents and distinct local dialects, exactly like everywhere in England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.5.235 (talk) 16:29, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Languages
"Apart from standard English, Northumbria has a series of closely related but distinctive dialects, descended from the early Germanic languages of the Angles, of which 80% of its vocabulary is derived". Is this about modern Northern English? If so, is it meant to be a joke? Taken from the source, "Distinctively Geordie and Northumbrian words are more than 80 % Angle in origin, compared to standard English, where the figure is less than 30 %." this sentence is very problematic itself. If by "distinctive" the author means "not found in standard English", then the figure cannot be compared with the proportion of native English words in Standard English wordstock because they are utterly unrelated things. More ungrounded linguistic claims from the site: "Today the only part of England where the original Anglo-Saxon language has survived to any great extent is of course the North East." and " It is from the ancient Germanic and Scandinavian language of the Angles that the unique local dialects of Northumberland and Durham primarily owe their origins." For one thing, the use of the words "Germanic" and "Scandinavian" is very casual; for another, how does a language spoken 1000 years ago "survive"? (I mean, say, if Old English was still spoken somewhat in Northern England by a small group of folks or something, then yes, it "survived to an 'extent'"); yet another thing: how does a language that is not a creole "primarily" derive from another? It's either English or it is not, is it not the case? Anyway, I could be mistaken, but I believe citing this webpage is not appropriate. 202.171.163.7 (talk) 17:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Did Northumbria have a flag?
There is a discussion on this above which refers to the Flags of the World website, but this website does not give any WP:RS. The short paragraph in the article cites a self-published site which states that the author disapproves of the Wikipedia link. I have not seen any reference to a flag in Rollason or Higham, or any other history of the period. So far as I discover see all mention of a flag is anachronistic and should be deleted. Can anyone cite a reliable source for a Northumbrian flag? Dudley Miles (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, unless someone comes up with something I don't think it ought to be used to decorate these medieval articles.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:12, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 18:04, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

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Infobox
The infobox is a mess but I am unsure how to fix it. I think the excess width is because of the {{tl|nowrap]] being used around the entry for Lincolnshire. Can anyone resolve that? - Sitush (talk) 02:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Incomplete sentence
"His successor, Abbot Ceolfrith, continued to add to the library until it." Until it what? Burned down? Was closed by Tory spending cuts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.144.205.38 (talk) 00:06, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Languages - incorrect quote
The 'languages' section reads: "In the time of Bede, there were four vernacular languages in Northumbria: those of the Britons, Scots, Picts, and Northumbrian, and Latin".

What Bede actually wrote was:

"At the present time, there are five languages in Britain, just as the divine law is written in five books, all devoted to seeking out and setting forth one and the same kind of wisdom, namely the knowledge of sublime truth and of true sublimity. These are the English, British, Irish, Pictish, as well as the Latin languages".

'British' means what we would call 'Welsh'.

'Irish' means 'Gaelic'.

For some reason the current text mis-applies the words 'Northumbrian' and 'Scots' to mean what Bede called English. In his day 'the Scots' and 'the Picts' i.e. the inhabitants of the Highlands, spoke what he called 'Irish' and 'Pictish'.

The original sentence would better read: "In the time of Bede, there were four vernacular languages in Northumbria: English, Old British, Scots-Gaelic and Pictish, plus Latin".

Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.161.226 (talk) 16:19, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Flag


I recently put the Northumbria flag at the bottom of the article to the infobox. Somebody said it was anachronistic, I agreed and put it back where it was.

Now some people, as vaguely as possible, say don’t put it there and put it elsewhere. I disagree since the section in question already had the flag there in the first place and literally talks about it. These users clearly haven’t read the text properly where it is LEGACY, a word meaning influence since something has past, is appropriate. Chocolateediter (talk) 16:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Legacy has now gone. I am happy with that at least it now only reflects the area when it was a kingdom and placename. Chocolateediter (talk) 17:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Is this the only version? Is there a more 'chequered' version? what does SVG mean?Halbared (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Scalable Vector Graphics---Ehrenkater (talk) 19:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I see there is a page for the other version, but it doesn't mention/show this version. Where does it come from Chocolateediter?Halbared (talk) 19:05, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

medieval Anglian kingdom/Anglo-saxon
The opening paragraph says 'medieval Anglian kingdom', and following paragraphs use 'Anglo-Saxon.' Are the statements in opposition?Halbared (talk) 18:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * They are not inconsistent: Anglo-Saxon includes Anglian.---Ehrenkater (talk) 19:02, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * How come the lede doesn't use anglo-saxon?Halbared (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I think Anglo-Saxon is better. Higham in his history describes it as an Anglo-Saxon kingdom, although the also refers to an Anglian dynasty. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Ambiguity of "British" instead of "Celtic British"
using "British" to refer to Celtic Britons can be ambiguous. The word British is used in everyday language to just refer to Britain or the UK, not to refer to Celtic Britons. If neither "Celtic" nor "Celtic British" works for you since you have reverted those, what do you suggest to avoid confusion? Vpab15 (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I would think in everyday usage, that would be correct, and if one wanted to differentiate between the picts, gaels and Brits/welsh. But in context on a page that is dealing with anglo-saxons and the British/brits, where all other forms (I mean references) are dealing with the brits, it would be fine, like other pages dealing with this historic topic. This page isn't dealing with modern usage, so in context there is no need for an extra word.Halbared (talk) 18:01, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Nonsense - it is entirely usual to have these links, piped or unpiped, on articles on the A-S period. Please stop edit-warring on this. Johnbod (talk) 18:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I looked at a few other articles, it doesn't appear to be 'nonsense.'Halbared (talk) 18:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Examples? You are now past WP:3RR btw. Johnbod (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)-
 * Two examples are from other anglo-saxon kingdoms; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex#Saxon_settlement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Essex#Origin. When referencing the indigenous tribes, just 'briton/british' is used.Halbared (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing this at all in Wessex; I suggest you look again. The first relevant link is "Celtic British tribes", but I added another one later to be sure. Essex did need one, which I've added.  Johnbod (talk) 20:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You just edited it to suit your purpose. The style in both those pages was to say, 'briton' or 'british.' Why ask for examples when you intend to edit them?Halbared (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * A useful way of finding things that need correcting. Johnbod (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * And then say you don't see it I need to read again, you should think about how you interact on here.Halbared (talk) 10:19, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I do not think that there is any really satisfactory answer to this question. Modern academic historians object to the term Celtic, except as applied to the language, but still occasionally use it. Nick Higham in The Kingdom of Northumbria almost always says British, but does refer to Celtic kings and culture. On the other hand Celtic is clearer to the layman. I think Celtic British is the best compromise, although not strictly correct according to current thinking. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the knowledgable input.Halbared (talk) 00:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Museum curators also "object" to Celtic, a bit, but always use it when addressing a general readership, at least on the posters & at the start of the catalogue. We are writing for a general readership. Halbared, that's 3 editors, all with some experience in this area, who support what you keep reverting. Johnbod (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see you have self-reverted (but not at Essex). Thanks. Johnbod (talk) 04:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Flag
I created a flag that represents the description of Bede, the colour wasn’t specified just purple and gold. It is not burgundy and gold which was registered as a compromise. The flag represented the kingdom, with historic dyes the colours would not have been specific. Can it be on the article. Chocolateediter (talk) 21:21, 21 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Bede only describes it as a banner of gold and purple, making no mention of stripes, (and therefore no number and order of them or their width ratio,) or the overall length/width proportions. If it was possible, in the period between the death of Oswald and a red/gold flag based on his banner being used by Northumberland, for the colour to change then many other elements of the design such as the stripes may possibly have been altered too. I would be hesitant about the inclusion of a flag without citations from reliable historical sources that gave a more detailed description of the banner/flag as it was in the mid-tenth century, particularly when previous discussions have questioned the reliability of certain websites for this and noted that many of the books on the subject make no reference to flags. EdwardUK (talk) 02:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Kingdom of Strathclyde
Wasn't the Kingdom of Stratchlyde periodically subject to Northumbria? This should be represented in the map. It alternated between direct territory of Northumbria and direct client state/vassal of Northumbria for most of their co-existence. 2.99.68.104 (talk) 12:34, 10 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Pictland was also periodically subject to Northumbria, from what I understand. 2.99.68.104 (talk) 12:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC) BE sock. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictland was never subject to Northumbria and you would need a reliable source for saying that Strathclyde was. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:08, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictland was frequently subject to Northumbria. The subjection ended definitively with the Battle of Nechtansmere in the late 600s. I believe even Dal Riata faced some form of subjection to Northumbria, although that may have been indirectly through its subjection to Pictland which itself periodically came under Northumbrian hegemony.
 * But sure reliable sources. Not hard to find. 2.99.68.104 (talk) 19:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "The Northumbrian hegemony over northern Britain, won by Ecgfrith's predecessors, had begun to disintegrate. Several of Northumbria's subject nations had rebelled in recent years, leading to a number of large-scale battles against the Picts, Mercians and Irish, with varied success. After sieges of neighbouring territories carried out by the Picts, Ecgfrith led his forces against them, despite advice to the contrary, in an effort to reassert his suzerainty over the Pictish nations."
 * "The battle ended with a decisive Pictish victory which severely weakened Northumbria's power in northern Britain. Ecgfrith was killed in battle, along with the greater part of his army. The Pictish victory marked their independence from Northumbria, who never regained their dominance in the north."
 * It's literally right here in the article on the Battle of Nechtansmere. Where are you getting the idea that Pictland wasn't periodically subject to Northumbria? 2.99.68.104 (talk) 19:49, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "To the north of the Forth, the Pictish nations consisted at this time of the Kingdom of Fortriu to the north of the Mounth, and a "Southern Pictish Zone" between there and the Forth. Evidence from the eighth century Anglo-Saxon historian Bede points to the Picts also being subjugated by the Northumbrians during Oswald's reign, and suggests that this subjugation continued into the reign of his successor, Oswiu." 2.99.68.104 (talk) 19:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Ecgfrith succeeded Oswiu as king of Northumbria in 670. Soon after, the Picts rose in rebellion against Northumbrian subjugation at the Battle of Two Rivers, recorded in the 8th century by Stephen of Ripon, hagiographer of Wilfrid. Ecgfrith was aided by a sub-king, Beornhæth, who may have been a leader of the Southern Picts, and the rebellion ended in disaster for the Northern Picts of Fortriu. Their king, Drest mac Donuel, was deposed and was replaced by Bridei mac Bili." 2.99.68.104 (talk) 19:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "The record and description of the battle is limited entirely to Stephen of Ripon's account in his Vita Sancti Wilfrithi. According to this account, Ecgfrith became aware of the Picts plans to overthrow the Northumbrian suzerainty and he hastily assembled an invasion force of horsemen. He headed north, aided by his sub-king Beornhæth, who historian James Fraser suggests may have ruled the southern Pictish kingdom of Niuduera, identified as being located in present-day Fife."
 * Okay so this seems like more than enough contemporary evidence and reliable sources for asserting that Pictland was subject to Northumbria for large spells of their co-existence. Agreed? I can pull the exact sources from the Nechtansmere article if you want. As for editing the map, I'm not sure how we go about that.
 * But I think it's safe to say the map at present drastically underrepresents the balance of power in northern Britain at that time, as well as Northumbria's reach and influence.
 * Finding sources for Strathclyde's subjection will be even easier. 2.99.68.104 (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC) BE sock. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You have supplied anonymous statements, not reliable sources. The most authoritative source on Northumbrian history is N. J. Higham's Kingdom of Northumbria. He says p. 138 that Oswiu extended control over the Picts. It cannot have been very significant as it is the only reference to rule over the Picts in a 250 page book, but I was wrong to say that Northumbria never ruled the Picts. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:34, 10 July 2023 (UTC)