Talk:Norton (grape)

Henry Vizetelly
Is the Henry Vizetelly referenced in this article the same one referenced elsewhere? Gregmg 19:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Genetic makeup
It seems strange that no one has yet performed a DNA analysis on Norton to determine its origins. I've searched the web a number of times for any mention of DNA testing of this grape, but I can find nothing. Anyone having such information should definitely share it. Gregmg 19:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been done, except to determine that it is indeed identical to Cynthiana. I'm working on it, but it's not a high priority project Elakazal 23:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Note/Update: see '''Investigations into the Origin of 'Norton' Grape using SSR Markers''' results show "...the data evaluated in our study could not be used to identify likely parents of 'Norton', though a combination of SSR data and circumstantial evidence provide tantalizing support that 'Enfariné noir' may be a close relative. All resulting data are consistent with V. vinijèra and V aesrivalis contributing substantially to the genetic background of 'Norton'. It is further proposed that initial focus on the rare alleles of 'Norton' at locus VVMD36 may provide a valuable tool in ultimately identifying the parents of 'Norton'."" nalc.nal.usda.gov//download//41645/PDF

Cherokee usage
I'm not going to put it back because I haven't read the cited reference to know what it said, but it's important to note that A) it said something to the effect of "Norton or a related grape", and B) Cherokee religious ceremonies continue to this day. At the time of Dr. Norton's development, the Cherokees were still living in their homeland, which was not far from Virginia. It's perfectly plausible that the Cherokee's used Norton in ceremonies. It's also possible that they used V. aestivalis, which would be "a related grape". Perhaps they had historically used V. aestivalis, then switched to using Norton when it became available because it was similar to their traditional fruit, while the self-fertile nature of it meant far more of it. Elakazal 23:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It maybe true that they used Norton (unlikely), but more likely that they used v. aestivalis, so I moved the claim to the v. aestivalis page some time ago.Ryandaum 01:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Among those who have seriously researched the Norton grape, there seems to be a concensus that it is an accidental three-way hybrid, first grown in Dr. Norton's garden. That would prevent it from being the original grape used in Cherokee traditions. The reference is better left in the v. aestivalis article. Gregmg 06:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, I haven't read the specific Cherokee reference, so I can't comment on specifically what has happened, but there have been nearly 200 years of Cherokee religious practice since the creation of Norton. Just because it's not the original grape used ceremonially wouldn't necessarily mean that it wasn't or isn't used. If some one has read the cited reference, I'd like to know if Norton is actually mentioned. Elakazal 09:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Improving this page
I'm no expert on Norton (can't get any to taste here in Ontario) or southeastern North American viticulture, but I have read quite a bit about this grape here and there. If someone wants to take a crack at improving this page, I would be willing to help. Here are some places I have seen to start from:


 * http://www.chateau-z.com/norton.html
 * http://www.thewineman.com/nortongrape.htm

I think the page needs:


 * more extended description of the grape & plant itself (leaf description, grape size, info on norton's peculiar propagation requirements, etc.)
 * more history
 * more explanation of relevance of the grape
 * notable wine examples (stone hill, etc.)

Ryandaum 20:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: The Wild Vine:A forgotten grape and the untold story of American wine, by Todd Kliman, Clarkson Potter/Publishers New York. (my copy is advance of publication, but should be mid 2000's) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.203.56.55 (talk) 01:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Sounds great. Remember the Wikipedia credo... Be Bold. Make whatever edits you believe are necessary or beneficial. Gregmg 13:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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Speculation from DNA study
This revert was justified beause a) it is primary research unconfirmed by a WP:SCIRS review, b) is conjecture and synthesis about the Norton grape origin, WP:SYNTH, and c) is promotional of one researcher and study, possibly with the IP editor having WP:COI. As stated on the page of the disputed source, the paper is a preprint and has not yet been peer-reviewed, making it premature as a source. Zefr (talk) 13:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The IP editor is warring to include this comment, yet has not engaged either here or on the user's talk page. Warning about WP:3RR. Zefr (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)