Talk:Norwich (disambiguation)

Merge in Downtown Norwich
In the recent AFD, I brought up merging the DAB page Downtown Norwich into this DAB. I've already copied the content. All that remains to discuss is whether Downtown Norwich should remain as-is or redirect here. Since Downtown Norwich was the subject of a very recent discussion and this idea was brought up late, I don't feel comfortable being bold about this. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  18:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC) note: I now think it should redirect to Downtown Norwich Historic District, see below. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  04:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This should be redirected to its primary meaning, which is the Downtown neighborhood of Norwich (Conn.). The article that is most closely related is Downtown Norwich Historic District, which represents the late-19th century extent of the neighborhood. This is about 50% of the area of the neighborhood (taken as a census tract since Norwich has not officially defined its neighborhoods). --Polaron | Talk 18:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Polaron. Am I correct that the google map you linked to was created by yourself?  I think it's interesting and possibly constructive for you to do that.  If you would create an image from that map I believe it would probably be appropriate to include it in the Norwich, Connecticut article.  However, the created map/image is not a valid source on its own.  It requires interpretation, for example that if this is like other NRHP maps you've created it is an approximation using the available short list of coordinates in the NRIS database, as opposed to showing a complete shape of district that would be available in the NRHP application document map.  I don't know how to interpret the "Downtown Norwich" census district that you map there, like whether that is an approximation or not and whether it is known locally as being the "Downtown Norwich" neighborhood or not.  In long discussions which Orlady, Polaron, and I have participated in, it has been abundantly made clear that a census district of a given name is often not the same area as a neighborhood/hamlet/"village".  Here, also, I don't believe that the existence of a "Downtown Norwich" neighborhood has been established by any source.  So, while I honestly do appreciate your making the image, I believe it does not "answer" questions on the relationship of the "neighborhood" to the historic district that is located in the downtown area.  Why not get the NRHP documen and use it to develop the article and/or to make a more accurate/definitive map of the HD at least?  Again, I do appreciate the constructive effort you are making with this.  There ought to be some way to make it usable in an actual Wikipedia article by including suitable sourcing/explanation/footnoting of necessary interpretation. doncram (talk) 01:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Question: Does Norwich, England have a downtown to speak of?  If so, might it be what most people looking for information on "downtown Norwich" are looking for?  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  20:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No. The reason that the redirect got nominated for deletion in the first place was that, for a brief period, it was targeted to Norwich (England). An English editor requested deletion of the redirect, saying (in essence) that the term "downtown" is an Americanism that is not relevant in England. After the redirect target got changed back to its original destination, the RfD discussion probably could have been closed, but it stayed open because of a user who was vehemently opposed to its existence (with any target). --Orlady (talk) 20:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I do recall some English person saying that. But, Orlady, please just get over the fact that I once redirected the redirect to the English city, which is in fact the primary usage of the name "Norwich".  And, I don't recall that the redirect got nominated for that reason.  I am not going to revisit the edit history, but I believe it was nominated for deletion by me or by someone else because it was and should be deleted altogether.  If it was pointing to the CT NRHP district, it should have been nominated for deletion, too. doncram (talk) 01:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Further comment: The item in the Norwich disambiguation page that says "Downtown Norwich (New York), the central business district of Norwich, New York" does not belong on that page. Downtown Norwich (New York) is just a redirect to Norwich, New York, which is already appropriately linked on this disambiguation page. I would delete it myself right now, but for the fact that davidwr copied it here to facilitate discussion. --Orlady (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Convert to redirect pointing to Downtown Norwich Historic District. I agree with Polaron -- this is the primary meaning of "Downtown Norwich". The article Downtown Norwich Historic District can contain a hatnote indicating that users looking for any other instance of "Norwich" should see Norwich (disambiguation). I don't think it makes much sense to merge-and-redirect Downtown Norwich to this disambiguation page, since the principal use (almost the only use) of the term "downtown Norwich" is for the area discussed in Downtown Norwich Historic District. --Orlady (talk) 20:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Orlady, I don't get why you believe it should redirect to Downtown Norwich Historic District. When I last did Google searching on it, I recall not coming across any instances of "Downtown Norwich" meaning the historic district, or even of "Downtown Norwich" existing as a capitalized phrase referring to any area of Norwich, CT (with the exception of headlines using initial caps, for articles about something occuring in "downtown" area of the city, where "downtown" is not capitalized in the article.  Why do you believe that there is such a Wikipedia-notable neighborhood?  And, if you do believe it is a wikipedia-notable neighborhood, why not get a source or two and develop an article about it.  In the absence of sources, the redirect/dab/mentions of a neighborhood should be thrown out, IMO.


 * I do agree with Orlady that "'Downtown Norwich (New York), the central business district of Norwich, New York' does not belong on that page." There is no evidence that there is a neighborhood of that name, and as Orlady points out there is a link to Norwich, NY, already. doncram (talk) 01:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Overall, I do approve of redirecting "Downtown Norwich" to this "Norwich (disambiguation)" dab page. IMO it would be better just to delete the redirect entirely, but redirecting to here is the least worst other choice. doncram (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, now I feel stupid for not seeing this a week ago: Downtown_Norwich was created about a month ago as
 * the central business district of Norwich, Connecticut, designated as Downtown Norwich Historic District
 * the central business district of Norwich (city), New York
 * On its face, there was no need to create the dab in the first place, a redirect and cross-hatnotes would've done nicely. Even if both places were equally deserving of the name by common usage - and I'm not saying they are - the historical district would get the redirect because it has the phrase "Downtown Norwich" in it.
 * Given that we went years without this dab and given that Norwich doesn't have a downtown, and given that there don't seem to be any other significant downtowns, I'm game with redirecting to Downtown Norwich Historic District and at the same time sending the redirect Downtown Norwich (New York) to RfD for deletion. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  04:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: To help inform this discussion, I have restored the history of the prior version of Downtown Norwich that was created in October 2009 and deleted on 8 November 2009 following RfD discussion. --Orlady (talk) 17:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This is all circular now. The Downtown Norwich (New York) redirect should be deleted, I agree.  The disambiguation page is inappropriate, I agree.  But, I will oppose having any made-up "Downtown Norwich" direct to the "Downtown Norwich Historic District".  It is not correct for that article to have to carry any burden of explaining about a supposed neighborhood of that name.  There is, correctly, no mention of a "Downtown Norwich" in that article.  The historic district presumably is located in the downtown area of Norwich, CT.  The redirect from "Downtown Norwich" to the historic district was previously deleted by the RFD which you mention.  (Orlady may wish to chime in yet again to point out that the redirect was temporarily redirected by me to the city Norwich, but the all possible targets for a redirect were discussed in the RFD, and the decision taken was to delete it.  The best option now is to redirect/merge "Downtown Norwich" to "Norwich (disambiguation)", as that puts no undue burden on any regular article and it does not mislead readers to think that there is any regular article about any "Downtown Norwich" (because there isn't). doncram (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Saying it doesn't exist does not make something non-existent. There is clearly a downtown area in Norwich (I hope you're not saying Norwich has no downtown area). The historic district article is about the development of the main part of downtown. Hence, the redirect is appropriate. --Polaron | Talk 20:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. So far as Norwich (city), New York, is concerned, I don't see any need for an article on a Downtown part of it, so is a redirect really needed? In connection with Downtown Norwich Historic District, while that clearly merits an article, its correct name seems to be Norwich Historic District or Norwichtown Historic District - see norwichct.org . Gimingham (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

New problem
From my post above, I've just spotted that we have articles at Downtown Norwich Historic District and Norwichtown Historic District, clearly both about the same subject. Gimingham (talk) 17:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, those are different historic districts in the same town. Note the different stated areas and numbers of contributing buildings, and different NRHP reference numbers.  To get more info about any one of these to develop its article, by the way, you can request NRHP nomination documents for free from the National Register (email to nr_reference at nps.gov ). doncram (talk) 19:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * [EC] - Downtown Norwich Historic District and Norwichtown Historic District are completely different places, although both are in the same municipality. The Norwichtown Historic District has in the past been a redirect to Norwichtown, but I see that it got recreated as a separate article, without including a link to the other article. I have created links between the two Norwichtown articles, although I think they should be merged back into Norwichtown.


 * What made you think these two HDs are the same place? --Orlady (talk) 19:23, 26 December 2009 (UTC)