Talk:Norwich School/Archive 1

how is this copyright infringement *confused*
Hi. To ask a question, you need to add it as text and then sign it by typing 4x ~ ( ~ ) at the end of the message. That puts your name on it.

At the moment the page includes large lumps of your school's web site. Unless the school has released this text under license, it can be seen as a copyright issue for it to be used on Wikipedia. In order to prevent this becoming an issue the page has been blanked until it can be sorted out - either through deletion (very unlikely to happen) or through editing the content to deal with the issue.

I hope that this answers your question. DiverScout (talk) 19:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

editors are stupid
why do people edit out useful information?


 * Because your additions are not referenced and appear to be leaning towards vandalism (eg. Reuben Ard). I will be checking your latest posts about an eighth house with the school office on Monday. DiverScout (talk) 10:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

oh, fair enough

just a thought...
Does this come across as slightly too glossy and advert-like for anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.64.208.158 (talk) 01:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

A lot of this is lifted from the school's webpage/prospectus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.169.25.126 (talk) 10:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

March 2007 V2
Hello all, and thank you for contributing to this school site. I'm part of the WikiProject_Schools/Assessment team, and, as it has recently been editted, then I'm reviewing this page. I'm currently giving it a grade of start on the Wikipedia 1.0 Assessment Scale and an importance of Mid on this importance scale.

My reasoning is as follows: This article is about an old school so mid. But it still lacks refs and pics so start. Hope this helps Victuallers 21:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This page needs serious work
... face it - its pretty awful: the grammar is bad, the facts are often clearly wrong and theres a hell of an amount of bias. Also - why are the fees in the extra-curricular section. I would change this, but its much more fun to mock and I'm fairly sure someone else could do a better job of it. Also - I do love "rectum house" - fantastic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.31.64.187 (talk) 12:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * edit*

Is this Norwich Grammar School?
Is this Norwich Grammar School? Is this where Samuel Parr was? Cutler 00:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Image-NorwichSchool Crest.gif
Image:Image-NorwichSchool Crest.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 22:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyright Violations
Large sections of text, eg. Pastoral Care, Ethos and Aims and Curriculum  have been directly copied from the school web site. Has this text been released under license or do we need to copyvio the page? I have tagged it as a precaution until someone can check! DiverScout (talk) 10:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi. Thanks for noting your concerns. In the absence of evidence otherwise, the material cannot be used. I am cleaning the article accordingly. The notice of cleaning, which will appear directly below this one, includes directions for verifying permission if the original contributors of the text would like to do so. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.norwich-school.org.uk/senior-school/pastoral.asp, http://www.norwich-school.org.uk/lower-school/, http://www.norwich-school.org.uk/admissions/, http://www.norwich-school.org.uk/senior-school/extra-curricular.asp and http://www.norwich-school.org.uk/senior-school/departments.asp Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Artists of The Norwich School at Norwich School
According to Peter Mackintosh, John Crome was a drawing master at the school but never a pupil. John Berney Crome, James Stark, George Vincent and John Sell Cotman were pupils, however. See Richard Harries, Paul Cattermole & Peter Mackintosh, A History of Norwich School (Friends of Norwich School, 1991), pp. 191-2.

H Remster (talk) 19:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Old Norvicensians
I have restored the title of this section as this is in line with other articles (and categories) on alumni of independent schools.

I have also restored Tom Coates, as he has an article on Wikipedia (therefore meeting Wiki:Notability), is an Old Norvicensian and the only arguments so far made for his exclusion appear to relate to an anonymous author knowing him from school twenty-odd years ago and not liking him. I would ask, as I did on the company URL page used by the anonymous editor, that any further debate on his notability take place on the Tom Coates entry, as further deletions here will simply be reverted as probable vandalism.

Further to this, I am attempting to add additional notable and famous Old Norvicensians, but am finding it hard to source material. Looking at the length of the list for, say, Greshams School I assume that there are more than currently listed? DiverScout (talk) 10:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

There are several copies of A History of Norwich School (see the previous discussion item) in circulation within the Norfolk library service, including one on the shelves in Norwich. The book contains a part on notable ONs. H Remster (talk) 10:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

For the record, the reason why I followed the 'anonymous author' in removing Coates from the list of notable ONs is that I'd looked at the page for each person listed as a notable ON and adjudged his notability to be spurious (and probably self-ascribed). However, I take your point that this would need to be debated on the Coates page and not the Norwich School page – though I don't care enough to pursue it myself. H Remster (talk) 10:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The list for Gresham's School has a lot of footnotes and they show that the main sources for that list are a published School Register, a recent history of the school, Who's Who, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Alumni Cantabrigienses, a club address book, and online obituaries. Gimingham (talk) 05:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added John Brereton and John James Stewart Perowne, plus Augustus Jessopp under notable masters. Gimingham (talk) 06:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

What should be the name of this page?
As Norwich School is a redirect to Norwich School (educational institution), surely the article should be at Norwich School? Gimingham (talk) 06:18, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd agree. If that title has been used as a redirect, rather than a disambig, for some time I would assume that consensus could be assumed. DiverScout (talk) 09:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No consensus; just a unilateral destruction of a disambig page by a now blocked sock. Thanks for catching it! I've restored the proper contents. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. But, all the same, I haven't seen any other school on Wikipedia which has "(educational institution)" after its name, and it sounds very funny to me. Can we try to get consensus? "Norwich School of Art & Design" on that disambig page isn't even an article, it's just a redirect to Norwich University College of the Arts, and that's also an educational institution. Can't we use the title Norwich School for this article and have a line right at the top to say "For the school of painters go to Norwich School (art movement)"? People would get there just as fast, and nearly all of the links to Norwich School are looking for this article, so they would get here quicker. The few that aren't wanting to come here could be directed to where they are trying to go. Gimingham (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec: running out. Haven't had time to compare changes. Hope this is still relevant! :)) At first, I thought that, too. But I noticed that the Art & Design school used to be called "Norwich School of Art & Design", which would make it a valid search term for "Norwich School." It gets more complex when there are two possible search terms for a disambig header. If this is the typical target for the search, it might be appropriate to move the "Norwich School" disambig to an actual disambig subheader. Consensus would certainly be welcome there. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, this is a bit technical for me, but I don't think the former Norwich School of Art & Design was ever called even informally simply "Norwich School", because that would have been misunderstood, and I can't find any links to Norwich School which are trying to get to the School of Art & Design. Do you mean we could have a disambig page at "Norwich School (disambiguation)", thus helping to solve the problem? Gimingham (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I mean, with a hatnote saying "for other uses see". --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:30, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If that would mean Norwich School (this one, I mean) could be called "Norwich School", then I really think that would be best, as this is indeed "the typical target for the search". But do we need to get agreement anywhere other than here? Gimingham (talk) 20:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems like a good idea to me. If there were objections, an alternative might be to give the full title of the school in brackets rather than "educational institution", e.g. "Norwich School (King Edward VI’s Grammar School)". DiverScout (talk) 07:12, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

2011 revival

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move and replace the dab page. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, as this has come up again. I propose that this is moved to Norwich School, as debated above. The other options are pretty spurious. Unless anyone has any real issues I will be bold and do this later in the week. Relisted GTBacchus(talk) 18:58, 4 August 2011 (UTC) DiverScout (talk) 15:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I just can't see a problem with Norwich School, so long as there are suitable hatnotes on the various articles. The page now at Norwich School will need to be moved to Norwich School (disambiguation), where it probably should have been all along. Moonraker (talk) 15:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Given that the disambiguation page contains eight items all with a reasonable claim to the title "Norwich School", feel that Norwich School should remain as a disambiguation page. As to the establishment described in this article, what is wrong with Norwich School (independent school)? Failing that, Norwich School (King Edward VI’s Grammar School) would also do very well. &mdash; RHaworth 16:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * So far as I am aware, not one of the present-day Norwich High School for Girls, the former Norwich High School for Boys, the City of Norwich School, the Norwich Law School of the UEA, the Norwich University College of the Arts (formerly the Norwich School of Art & Design), and Norwich High School in the USA, has ever been called "Norwich School", so none of them seems to me to have a claim to the name. I agree that the Norwich School (art movement) has a reasonable claim to the title of "Norwich School", but then that article isn't at the page named Norwich School and seems to get along without problems at its present title, so what happens to this page need not affect it. Really, the only issue is where the present disambiguation page should go, and the obvious title for it is surely Norwich School (disambiguation)? Moonraker (talk) 17:15, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * NB, thanks to RHaworth, who I see deleted Norwich School (disambiguation) at 16:49 today with the comment "make sure DiverScout can move page here". I have moved the dab page to the deleted title. RHaworth, don't we also need the new redirect which is now at Norwich School to be deleted? Thanks, Moonraker (talk) 17:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you need the redirect to be deleted but as I have said at User talk:RHaworth you need to find another admin willing to do that. Things are now back at the state I found them. I disagree the move of this page to Norwich School but if you can find someone else to do it, I will not interfere. &mdash; RHaworth 23:13, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * But as he says above, Moonraker has today moved the DAB . I'd suggest that, assuming this RM fails, it should be moved back. Andrewa (talk) 01:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And I have now posted a heads-up to that effect at Talk:Norwich School (disambiguation). There's no point in another one at Talk:Norwich School since it currently redirects there. Andrewa (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose. While it may be true that no educational institution has had this official name, the term Norwich School is still highly ambiguous. There are many topics that could claim this title as their common name. The DAB should stay at Norwich School. Also note that a heads-up should be posted at the talk pages of other pages affected by any RM; This was not done in this case. Andrewa (talk) 21:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support -as per two years of discussion. Only one institution is actually commonly known as Norwich School, and the title is far from ambiguous.  The closest alternative is the Norwich School of Art - as it is commonly known.  As it says on that article, the NSoA is little known outside of the arts community, and most who have heard of it rarely refer to it as simply Norwich School.  DiverScout (talk) 07:10, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You are also the nominator, are you not? No harm in also voting explicitly, but it's helpful to point out that's what you're doing. Andrewa (talk) 13:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am - as indicated on here - nominating on behalf of other editors who appeared to have less experience of Wikipedia. DiverScout (talk)
 * Support, per my comments above. No other organization is called "Norwich School", although others have had both words included in their names. That is not uncommon here at Wikipedia - cf Bedford School, which is not confused with Bedford Modern School or Bedford High School; Westminster School, which has that page name despite several schools with much the same name elsewhere; Marist College, which has several namesakes, Providence Academy, which exists alongside Providence Academy (La Crosse, Wisconsin); and so on. Also, the Norwich School in Norwich is clearly the primary meaning of Norwich School. Moonraker (talk) 09:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We're not particularly concerned about whether these other uses (institutions and others) are or ever have been the official name of the institution (or other topic). The claim that The Norwich School in Norwich is clearly the primary meaning of Norwich School is very relevant however... evidence? Andrewa (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. That's its name. No other school has that name. What's the problem? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not seeing a primary topic primary topic. Why am I confused? Marcus   Qwertyus   13:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not fully versant in "Wikispeak". DiverScout (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Copyright and possible vandalism
User:Mysticaljt has removed a large amount of verifiable content, and restored some of the material from the school web site removed under copyvio in March. I will work my way through these edits this time, and would prefer not to have to block the page again but will do so if more copyright material appears. DiverScout (talk) 09:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Objection to new page name of "Norwich School (private school)"
In my view, the move yesterday has not given us a good name, and I hope we can do better. In England, "private school" is more or less a synonym for "prep school", and in this country that is not even a secondary school. Also, Norwich School is widely called a "public school", a description which is at odds with "private school". I could live with Norwich School (independent), but reading through the comments above I am struggling to see a problem with Norwich School. Moonraker (talk) 09:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Whilst not agreeing that Private School automatically denotes a Prep School in England - the historic use is no longer common in my experiece. Norwich School is a Public School under UK convention.  As the school refers to itself as an Independent School, which is also probably the least internationally confusing title, I back Moonrakers comments above - but also cannot see any reason not to just use just Norwich School.  DiverScout (talk) 10:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed move
In the last discussion about the page name, above, there was no consensus for "Norwich School", but Norwich School (private school) still remains a misnomer (please see section above). I agree with DiverScout that Norwich School (independent school) would be better. Are there any objections to that? Moonraker (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No actual objections (anything is better than "...School (educational institution)"), but when did "private school" get so narrowly defined? In the UK it means a fee paying/independent school in general, not a particular tier. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:20, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In my view, there is still a distinction between a public school and a private school. Moonraker (talk) 05:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In most people's view there is but they can never agree one what the distinction is! But public school is normally a specific subset of senior schools with a particular ethos, and private school is a term covering the whole fee paying sector. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)