Talk:Notions (Winchester College)/Archive 1

my recent deletion
Kriss Akabusi went to the Latymer School, according to his WP article

I can't find anything on Will Morse

Gingekerr 07:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Spellings
I'm giving "bogwheel" the benefit of the doubt, until I can look it up in the 1998 Notions book. It sounds plausible, though I have never seen it written in any way other than "bogle": that is certainly the contemporary spelling. As for epideixes, I will look it up in the same book. I am, however, 99.9% sure it is pronounced -es, not -is: i.e. epideixis plural. But I could be wrong. Admittedly I don't think I've ever seen it written down except here (and I wrote that part of the article in the first place, if I remember correctly).

Can anyone else comment?

--Holmoak 00:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * "Bogwheel" is the College spelling, and "bogle" the Commoner spelling. (Interestingly, the word is found with the same meaning in Raymond Briggs' "Fungus the Bogeyman", though so far as I know Briggs has no Wykehamical connections.)  And the notice inviting people to attend Epideixis was always so spelled (occasionally in Greek!).--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your help, Sir Myles. I've had a chance to have a look at the Stevens book now. I have to say that "bogle" is now spelt "bogle" by collegemen and commoners (as far as I know; maybe some dons continue to spell it the old way). I think it would be a bit misleading to say that it is only sometimes spelt that way. I don't remember ever seeing Epideixis written down, so the error is almost certainly mine. Sorry! --Holmoak 19:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

College Notions
If there is any point in putting this sort of esoteric information in the public domain at all, it would be desirable to invite contributions showing the relevant dates, so as to show the changes over the years. (I was in College from 1970 to 1974.) Admittedly part of the charm of any tradition is the feeling that "it has always been like that". For any serious purpose, however, Winchester offers a perfect laboratory in which to study the evolution of tradition, both customary and linguistic, in an accelerated form, as it is a community in which a generation lasts a year and a lifetime lasts five years. It is a further advantage that there are 50 years' worth of OWs out there who can be asked, as well as manuscript notions books to study, so as to avoid anachronisms. (The Stevens book, for example, gives the tradition as at the author's time, updated by some very recent information, but does not attempt to trace the evolution between the two points.)

This approach would also avoid giving the public the impression that we are even madder than we are. In my time, for example (harrumph!), Notions Examinā certainly did not involve either dressing up or throwing food, and no one was thrown into Logie on Pempe Sunday.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I am aware that, as it stands, the article is rather obscure and only really of interest to Wykehamists and Old Wykehamists. When I added the material on College Notions, I was simply supplementing a rather sketchy article on the slang language: I wasn't really considering its overall aims. If you can think of some ways we could make the article more relevant or useful, please feel free to supplement it. The College Notions section applied from 1997 to 2001; Epideixis from 1997 to 2002; I'm not really sure about the Pempe Sunday section as I don't remember it very well, but it probably applied as documented from 1997-2000.

As an old Collegeman (1997-2002), I would be fascinated to know what Notions was like in the '70s. --Holmoak 19:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It was very pleasant. None of this branding or bullying nonsense; generally a good laugh, and a good time had by all. Although I suspect poor old Pot was sweating blood about it being the only time fires were lit in the upstairs chambers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.117.135 (talk) 20:39, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have added the question about "Jupiter". Incidentally, a long time ago, when I was in Italy, I happened to say that something was immemoriale (a word that does not exist in Italian), and was promptly corrected to immemorabile! Pure coincidence, of course. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell me what dates, and what house, the "Notions Potion" bit relates to? If it was only a transient bit of silliness, it is not worth recording here. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It was a pre-existing tradition that was extant during my entire stretch (A, 1994-1999). There was no prohibition on bodily fluids, either. DrPizza 16:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Similarly for the "Chloe" question: there is not much point in recording it as "memorable" if we don't say what it refers to. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 08:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Pempe Sunday
Can anyone tell me whether the custom of throwing four-year-men into Logie applies to all four-year-men or only to those who cannot produce Pempes? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Sir Myles: Pempe Sunday only happened a couple of times when I was there, and I don't remember much about it. Given that these things tend to become a free-for-all, I expect it applies to any Sen Man who happens to be in the vicinity. However, I'm not an authoritative source. Gingekerr might know. --Holmoak 12:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Pempe Sunday certainly happened in the late 70s, and we certainly tried the rolling pempeless four-year men down Hall stairs. I don't recall taking any of them out to Logie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.154.226 (talk) 22:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Epideixis
Does this now take place in VIIth upstairs or downstairs? In my time it was in an upstairs chamber (I don't remember which), and those called up stood on a platform made of chests of drawers pushed together in the centre of the chamber. Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * VIIth downstairs: the Captain of VIs stands on the spiral staircase, VI book 1 stand on top of the Toys, VI bk 2 on the raised areas by the windows, and everyone else around the edge of the floor. People called up run into the middle and jump up and down shouting 'COLLEGE' etc. --Gingekerr


 * This changed during my time: as far as I remember, until 2001, it was in an upstairs chamber (the one directly above 1st -- I have forgotten its name, but it would be easy to find out). By Common Time 2002 it had moved to VIIth downstairs. --Holmoak 00:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be VIIth upstairs.Gingekerr 10:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In 1979-80, it took place in the upstairs chamber above IInd, which I think must be VIth. (I'd forgotten the numbers of some of the upstairs ones too). Some of the questions asked by the master of ceremonies caused more than one person to be called up onto the platform, often several people, perhaps as many as 10 in some cases. Many of the questions were bullying and humiliating, often being sexually themed. People on the platform had to say the word 'college' taking as long as possible in one breath. The idea was that they would say 'Co-o-o-o-o-o-...', and then when they couldn't hold their breath any longer, they'd say '-lege' and then inhale. Many people didn't actually bother to do this, just saying the word as they would normally before getting down. Someone used a stopwatch to time how long the serious participants took, i.e. how long they could hold their breath. As for the platform, it was made of the chests of drawers but they didn't have to be pulled into the middle of the room because that was their normal position. I'd be interested to learn more about how and why the business came to an end. Was it to do with the risk of injury when climbing up onto the chests, or a general crackdown on traditionally-themed bullying for which no-one could seriously deny there was official tolerance, or what? Or maybe perhaps the authorities have since tried, and managed, to reduce the prevalence of bullying? In those days they didn't give a toss, most of the time. One don killed himself and the circumstances were all covered up. Nor were there any songs associated with the ceremony - I'd be interested to hear about them too. (COLL, 1978-80) 158-152-12-77 19:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As I read the correspondence, the business did not come to an end: it was simply moved to VIIth downstairs and the questions vetted. Nor did anyone mention songs: you are thinking of Notions Examinā.  There was sometimes a sweepstake on the outcome of Xs.


 * I don't remember the questions ever being humiliating or offensive: they were generally things like "all bellringers", "anyone in the choir whose voice has not broken", "anyone with an R in his name", "anyone who wears zipper boots", or "anyone who lives south of the Thames", and the whole thing was a kind of exercise in set theory. I don't think any of the questions were designed to identify just one person, and I don't think the article intended to suggest this.  --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi myles. I misread the info about songs in Chamber Court.


 * The changes may not have been unidirectional. You were there 1970-74 but in 1979-80 a significant proportion (1 in 4 or 5?) of the questions were designed to call out a single person. Having fun with set intersections applied to one or two of the other sequences of questions only. A big theme was the sadistic victimisation of a few individuals, largely sexually themed. Was no unpleasantness involved in your day? I would still be interested to know the circumstances in which proceedings changed. The change of location sounds as if it was due to the risk of falling from the chests of drawers, or tripping when jumping up, especially at an hour when people could be presumed to be tired and ready for bed. The introduction of vetting of the questions cannot have been for this reason and is perhaps more interesting. Does the officer involved take a list of questions to the College Master as I believe he's now called?158-152-12-77 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think I can put my hand on my heart and say that in my day Epideixis involved no unpleasantness at all. So far as bullying in general is concerned, I do remember one individual who tried to start up a campaign against "fo-brushes", which means people who joined College in the middle rather than the beginning of an academic year (though he tweaked the category to include enemies and exclude friends, cf. Karl Lueger's "I decide who is a Jew").  This stands out in my memory because it was the only phenomenon of its kind, and I remember wondering whether the person concerned really thought that College life was so bland that it needed an element of bullying to spice it up.


 * The real marvel is that there was not more of it. Any very closed society of males is liable to develop ritualistic bullying on Lord of the Flies lines, and if you read Mansfield's reminiscences (and Adams' Wykehamica; but contrast Fearon) you will see that in the nineteenth century College life was a peculiarly concentrated form of hell on earth.  I can only suppose that, by some temporary freak, we were saved from that by the influence of a very benign and Dumbledorean Second Master (Martin Scott).  Certainly if you look at the actual contents of notions, a lot of it reflects old forms of bullying (look up the entry on "Tin Gloves" for an example), but when I joined my impression was that notions were fun precisely because most of them were obsolete for practical purposes, and that the then prefects arranged most of the events in an indulgent and almost fatherly spirit for the amusement of the juniors.  These things clearly go in cycles, and I just happen to have been lucky: even people two years junior to me often have less pleasant memories, though not connected with notional events. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 21:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why Epideixis was moved downstairs, but it was all part of a compromise that also included the introduction of vetting. Around the time James Sabben-Clare left as headmaster, the school became very interested in getting rid of traditions that it perceived as unnecessary or potentially unpleasant. In fact, I am surprised that Epideixis has survived this long. The most likely reasons for the move are that is less disruptive for the jun men and it can be monitored more easily by the Master-in-College and/or the College tutors. I do not think it is safer, as people climb on top of the toys and balance there in precarious positions in the same way they used to stand on top of the cupboards.

Even before that, throughout my time in College (1997-2002) the Master-in-College, Peter Roberts, paid a lot of attention to Epideixis and Notions to make sure that there was no bullying. At Epideixis, many of the questions were aimed at particular people, and could potentially be offensive if taken seriously. However, I do not remember anyone actually being offended. My first Notions (1997) was quite a rough ride, but that was largely because I had no idea what was going to happen. In retrospect, I would object to the food-throwing and the branding (the latter a form of psychological torture rather than actual branding), but it is a shame that the test and the meal had to go. Notions was certainly one of the most memorable events of my school career.

Incidentally, Sir Myles, Martin Spencer Scott was still known (and loved) in College when I was there, as he was immortalised in one of the College songs. I suspect that they are no longer sung. Holmoak 19:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, God! I hardly dare ask what "branding" is, it gets worse and worse (and everything was so innocent once).


 * "Martin Spencer Scott/Martin Spencer Scott/We all love him, we all love him/Martin Spencer Scott: POT!" (to the tune of "Knees up Mother Brown"). I am touched that this was never changed, even though "Jamie Sabben-Clare" would have fitted the same rhythm.  The collective memory is amazing: think of those notes left for "Mr Bendall" (a College electrician from the 1950s).  In fact I visited College once in the early 1990s and found that, though the membership of College had replaced itself four times since I had left, I was still remembered (though the presence of the son of a school friend may have had something to do with it). --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The version we had had the same words, but it was chanted rather than sung, over and over again, faster and faster. We also chanted "James Sabben-Claire/James Sabben-Clare", but with the antonym substituted for the word "love". I always assumed that the song came into being in light of the contrast between them; from what you say, it must have been around before James Sabben-Clare was Second Master.


 * The last time it was chanted during Scott's stint as Second Master was by the whole of College during his last walk across Chamber Court to lunch in 1979 (1978? can't remember). The final repetition was silent, consisting of just the shouted word 'Pot!' at the end.


 * Whether there was a story behind his nickname, I don't know. I once heard him claim that two dogs - if memory serves, pups of his pet - went to work for the police, one to sniff out pot and the other jelly. I knew what pot meant, but had to ask before he explained that jelly meant gelignite.


 * There was nothing frightening about branding once you were in on the joke; unfortunately I was kept in the dark until the last possible moment. (It probably serves me right for being so innocent and credulous.) Supposedly, every new man was branded, while blindfolded, with the Roman numeral of his chamber at Notions using a red hot poker from the fire. In fact senior men would prepare two of these (usually fashioned from coat hangers), one of which was kept on ice. The hot one would substituted at the last moment and plunged into cold water to produce a convincing sizzle, while the other was used to "brand" the unfortunate new man.


 * I think the Notions from my first year was the only time I remember people being a bit over-exuberant, to the detriment of the younger men. The sen roll that year (1997) was a bit fearsome; subsequent rolls were mellower and more benevolent. With the end of Notions and censorship of many College traditions, my roll felt we were possibly the last to experience how College "used to be" (for better or for worse). I expect every roll feels like that to some degree, however. We were the last roll to attend five Notions -- I suppose this means we were the last notional four year men ever to come through College. --Holmoak 00:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like the sound of this branding stuff - when was that introduced ? Notions exam in the late seventies was a pleasant time, not least because it was the only time we had fires in the upstairs chambers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.154.226 (talk) 23:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * A small addendum - The song went: "Martin Spencer Scott, Martin Spencer Scott, we all love him, we all love him, Martin Spencer Scott, POT! James Sabben Clare, James Sabben Clare, we all hate him, we all hate him, James Sabben Clare, FROG!" You are right, Holmoak, there certainly was no love there at all! I was in College from 1996-2001, and I think it was our roll and the one below that lived through the gradual decline of the Notions examina. I would not be as generous as Holmoak, I believe that in my five years only my first (1996), second and third were Notions "as they were". In 1999, Notions was banned, and despite a few of us dressing up anyway in protest, no ceremony of any sort happened. As a sen man, I have to say we fought very hard to get the Notions examina, Epideixis and Pempe Sunday back (I remember in our first ever officers' meeting Peter Roberts assumed they were not going to happen). We were largely unsuccesful - it was in 2000 that Epideixis moved to downstairs VII, Pempe Sunday was abolished and the Notions examina became heavily monitored (dons present in each chamber and the songs censored). But we gave it a good shot anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.136.122 (talk) 16:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Charterhouse
Seeing as this page is about Win Coll Notions, presumably it would be better to put a notice at the top saying "The slang used at Charterhouse is also known as Notions" and perhaps a link to Notions_(Charterhouse) rather than the current introduction which implies that the two are the same.


 * I put a question about this on the Charterhouse School talk page, and got the reply that, while there is a specialised Charterhouse vocabulary, no one calls it "notions". We can therefore put this particular myth to bed. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Title of the article
Given that the article now makes it clear that Winchester College Notions consist not just of the slang words, but also a number of other traditions, might it be a good idea to move the contents of the page to "Notion (tradition)" or "Notion (Winchester College)"? The existing page could serve as a redirect, or, if necessary, a disambiguation page for confused Carthusians. --Holmoak 12:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Very good idea. I think it should be "Notions (Winchester College)" --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Toytime
In my time "toytime" meant only the evening preparation period, and not the work to be done in it. (There was no general word for this: it was a "task" if it consisted of an essay or verse composition, or "outers", short for "out-of-schools", if it consisted of maths or science problems.) Do I gather this has now changed? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You're correct. "Task" and "outers" are still used and have the same meanings. "Toytime" refers to both the evening preparation period and the work done during it. --Holmoak 01:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "Task" and "outers" were pretty rare during my time (A, 1994-1999). "task" was used occasionally, "outers" never. "toytime" was preferred, for both the work and the time in which to do it.  IME, the more sensible teachers and students plumped for "homework" to denote the work done.  I think probably 90% of the notions in the notions book served no purpose other than to provide material for notions tests.  I never realized that notions tests were unique to X, either....  DrPizza 16:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In the mid-80s your "Task" was the long English/History/occasionally Ethics essay which you had to write for your Div Don every Saturday evening (it was only at the age of 18 I actually learned what a weekend was :)). "Outers" referred to Maths or Science. Can't remember what we called Latin or French homework. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 14:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)