Talk:November 13–21, 2014 North American winter storm

Input
With the groundwork laid for the article, bring any suggestions and/or updates here, to the talk page, when deemed necessary. KirkCliff2 (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The Meteorology section seems a bit technical. I don't think a respective section template message is necessary, maybe just some simpler wording or at the least a few more wikilinks. Mapsax (talk) 13:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing, honestly, but the correct template will help draw more immediate attention. I'd revise it myself, but some of the terminology is beyond my comprehension of meteorology. I specialize in grammar, writing, vocabulary, etc., but not exactly advanced meteorology. Also, I think it's helpful to add whatever impacts there might've been to Eastern Canada and Greenland. KirkCliff2 (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Record breaker?
The following is copied from Talk:November 2014 North American cold wave: The "worst" [on record in the U.S.] aspect [of the storm] mentioned [in the media] is the most snowfall recorded in a 24-hour period. News outlets have been reporting that areas in the storm were approaching 76 inches, the record, during the event (example: see Reuters) and that many observers have not yet given a final total because of the extreme conditions so the goal might have already been matched or exceeded. If that's the case after the final numbers are provided, the outlets will likely start reporting on it soon, and then sources can be culled. Mapsax (talk) 14:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Mapsax (talk) 13:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I read somewhere that it fell pretty short of even a New York State record. I'm not certain about the record for Buffalo or its metropolitan area, though. Either way, keep in mind: Media reports aren't always accurate, so rely on something official, like NOAA. KirkCliff2 (talk) 14:07, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

"Snowvember"
Local and national media outlets are starting to adopt this name (do a news search). Not sure if it's universal or official enough to join "Knife" in the article. I just created the redirect in any case. Mapsax (talk) 15:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Article name
Would anyone mind if I move the page name to "Knife (2014 WNY Lake effect storm)" ? This name would seem more appropriate. It would also be of value to add a table with individual town snow fall totals. This is something I intend to do in the coming days.Fortunate4now (talk) 02:32, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Knife is just a codename. The article as it's named now, ironically, was my original suggestion, before settling for November 2014 Western New York Snowstorm during discussions on the Cold Wave article's talk page, in lieu of evidence it was a blizzard at the time. It's furthermore in-line now with standard nomenclature for these kind of articles, so I would definitely advise against it. The table, however, is a great idea, and also a map graphic illustrating snowfall distributions, if possible. KirkCliff2 (talk) 13:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

This article was moved to a name including the term "blizzard". This is wrong. This storm was not a blizzard, nor can I find any official sources that designate it as such. The term blizzard has a technical definition which has little to do with how much snow there was, and more to do with how much wind combined with snow there was. This storm did not meet that technical definition. The article needs to be moved back to its original name. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right. I'll rename it, but if someone tries to move it back to this title, we might need to seek move protection. KirkCliff2 (talk) 14:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry to stir the pot, but "winter" in the title may be a contention, since the season itself (as opposed to the type of weather that happens during it) is usually recognized in the U.S. to start December 1 (National Weather Service) or at the Winter solstice. Mapsax (talk) 03:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I still think a separate article detailing the circumstances in and around Buffalo would be appropriate. There's far too much overlap between this and November 2014 North American cold wave now. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "Winter storm" is appropriate, because that's exactly what this storm is. The effects (e.g. lake-effect snow, etc.) are merely secondary, although they are every bit as important. And this article has plenty of room to contain all of the impacts of this storm. It's pretty new for an article, but that doesn't mean that we can't expand it to include a lot more material than it currently has. LightandDark2000 (talk) 06:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, LightandDark2000. That being said, there's a few issues to help advance the article:
 * Someone made frivious use of the template in the article
 * It needs to be assigned ratings on the class-scales of the various WikiProjects we've added it to
 * Surely, it must have dissipated by now.
 * Were there any measurable impacts in Canada, Greenland, and Iceland? KirkCliff2 (talk) 14:40, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, there were. It was mainly wind and snow (some rain, perhaps?), as the system maintained an extremely well-defined circulation until it reached Iceland on November 24. That being said, I don't know if there are any websites or news articles covering this, but this is what the satellite loops indicated. LightandDark2000 (talk) 03:04, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, extratropical storms last longer than you guys probably think. Anyhow, as for the dissipation date, it happened to die yesterday. I wasn't able to update the article for a while because I was kind of busy for the past couple of days. Sorry. LightandDark2000 (talk) 03:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The citation needed templates were not put in in a frivolous manner. Large portions of the article are unsourced, and while those assertions may be obvious to meteorologists, they are not obvious to lay people.  Per WP:UNSOURCED, all content must be verifiable, and the burden is on the person placing that material into the article.  I put those templates in the article, rather than simply removed the unsourced material, so that it makes it easier for myself and other editors to look for specific sources to get the article to where it needs to be. Inks.LWC (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Article Content
Can someone please add the RSI intensity rating for this system? Thanks! (By the way, we need a lot more information in this article than we currently have.) LightandDark2000 (talk) 03:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * What is an RSI intensity rating? Inks.LWC (talk) 16:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Regional Snowfall Index (Scale). Most of the other major winter storm articles have it, minus Winter Storm Draco and Winter Storm Euclid (so obviously, a little update in the intensity of those storms is needed). I'm kind of surprised that we haven't obtained the RSI rating for this system yet, although it might take a while to obtain that data. LightandDark2000 (talk) 02:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Most of the snow was lake effect, and the WPC never released storm summaries for the event. Does the NCDC usually release an RSI for events that are composed of only or mostly lake effect snow? Inks.LWC (talk) 17:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I believe they do, as long as the event occurred in the Northeastern United States. LightandDark2000 (talk) 09:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * They calculate RSI for events outside of the Northeast; however, they still have not updated it, and they've updated it for a storm that occurred after this event, so my guess is that one was not made because it was mostly a lake-effect event. Inks.LWC (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Wind gusts of 88 mph were not associated with the storm
The wind gusts that were listed are incorrect. Those winds occurred on November 11, and were associated with a high pressure system and front not at all connected with or associated with the low that produced the winter storm. The source currently used as a reference says, "Damaging Winds Before the Winter Storm", and, "The winds are the result of the same winterlike air mass that has plunged all the way south to the Gulf Coast and eastward into the Ohio Valley behind a powerful cold front. A powerhouse high-pressure zone over western Canada and the northern U.S. is also trying to literally push this frigid but shallow air through gaps in the Rocky Mountains and from there into the Northwest, where it faces a second obstacle in the form of the Cascade Range. The high, whose central pressure was 1051 millibars (31.03 inches of mercury) over Canada's Northwest Territories Tuesday afternoon, has proven plenty strong enough to do just that. Winds began howling before sunrise Tuesday in the Columbia River Gorge just east of Portland, Oregon -- the most prominent gap in the Cascades, cutting a 4,000-foot-deep valley through the mountains." The area of low pressure that spawned the winter storm that is the subject of this article did not even make it close to the coast of the Pacific until November 13 and did not make it on shore until November 14. I have again removed the 88 mph figure; only wind gusts that are actually associated with the storm should be added. Inks.LWC (talk) 21:25, 3 December 2014 (UTC)