Talk:Nowruz/Archive 1

Nowruz
(The proper spelling of the Iranian New Year)

Upon the recommendation of prominent Iranian scholars, most Iranian societies and foundations outside Iran, Iranian Cultural Heritage Organization and Cultural Research Bureau (Tehran), and upon the approval of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), and most importantly, for the consistency within the International Iranian Community, we should all write the name of the Iranian New Year with this spelling:


 * Nowruz

&mdash;Remark by 128.230.136.12 on 10 March 2006

(Essentially same text as above was added to main article also.)

I have removed this as it was unreferenced and not really needed in the intro. --Kash 15:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all Nowruz is way off. That's not even how we pronounce it in Persian. The closest things are Norouz and Norooz. Between the two, Norooz has been accepted by more people, has over way more Google hits and is simple simpler.Hooman 17:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Response: Maybe some committees decided they liked that spelling, but spelling is a hard thing to impose on people, and that spelling doesn't appear to be particularly popular. As I understand it, typically, in English, dictionaries and such reference material are supposed to just document the common spellings that people use &mdash; not try to force people to follow declarations made by committees. Also note that not all official sources agree, since a child was ejected from the 2006 Scripps National Spelling Bee for not coming up with "nauruz" (see trivia section in main article). For example, today (17 June 2006) Google shows 183,000 hits for "norooz", 113,000 hits for "nawruz", 106,000 hits for "norouz", 76,000 hits for "noruz", 25,000 hits for "nowrouz", 890 hits for "nauruz" (185 of which also contain "spelling bee"), etc.

&mdash;Wookipedian 03:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Pashtu and Kurdish are NOT just a virant of Persian!!!
They are independent languages, unintelligible for Persians, although they have some shared roots with persian. Heja Helweda 19:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Norouz is not only celebrated by Iranians but also all the peoples who were part of the historical "Persian" family. This ancient group has been divided into many new ethnic groups, which today are different from Iranians but still retain some aspects of their Persian ancestory. These groups include the Kurds, Pasthuns, Tajiks and the people of both Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Not only do these groups celebrate persian holidays like Norouz and Yelda, their language is related to Persian. In fact, Tajiki and Dari (the offical languages of Tajikistan and Afghanistan) are just different names for Persian; while Pashtu and Kurdish are just a virant of Persian. Perhaps one day these diverese groups, can remember there common ancestory and unite to form a once again mighty Persian empire, much to the dismay of their enemies and corrupt neighbours.


 * Norouz isnt only celebrated by the peoples who were part of the historical "Persian" family, but by its originators of this festival, the Assyrians & Chaldeans

--138.130.32.229 12:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

What are your talking about? First of all it's called the Iranian family, wich persians are a part of. Persians were not a common ancestor to theis peoples. In fact the Kurds ancestors where only partially aryan(iranian). The kurds ancestors are various indo-european peoples who settled the kurdish mountains long before the aryans came to this area. Acording to the anatolian-theory and new scientific evidence, the kurdish mountains was were the indo-europeans originated. When later the indo-european aryan people came to this area the kurds were homogenized and aryanized. So to say that the kurds are iranian is only partially true but to say that the kurds are the offspring of the perians is very wrong and to say that Kurdish is "just a variant of Persian" is VERY wrong.
 * Sorry but you are confusing the matter. Just say all Iranian peoples are not Persian just like how all Slavic peoples are not Russians. Persians are Iranian, but not the only type, just like how Russians are Slavic, but not the only type.By the way what you are saying about Kurds not being Aryan is wrong. Genetic testing shows both Kurds and Persians have an Aryan base in their genetic structure in addition to mixing with indegenous races that lived in the Iranian plateau and Anatolia such as peoples similar to the Dravidans of India.

Noruz vs. Akitu

 * It is known that Darius The Great accepted Akitu festive during the capture of Babylon under the Persian empire. This was celebrated by the Babylonians & Assyrians on what would be March 21 on the Gregorian Calender. The festival ran for 12 days until April 1st thus giving it the modern name "Kha B'Nissan" (in Assyrian Kha=1, Nissan=April) and is still celebrated by Assyrians and Chaldeans (Ancient Babylonians) today.

--138.130.32.229 12:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Jam Shid

 * "Nowrouz was invented by pre history king of Persia whom is now called Jam or JamShid he may have been iranian king almost 7000 years ago for more info refer to the book "Nowrouz Jam Shid a 395 well documented page book by Dr. Javad Broumand and www.zeebad.persianblog.com"

Could someone verify and/or clean this up? &mdash;Ashley Y 04:22, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

That depends. Jam Shid is also held by modern Zoroastrians to have been the original prophet of Zoroastrianism (as well as the first man, also known as Yima), Zarathushtra himself only repeating the message several thousand years later. It should be noted that for Persian Zoroastrians, the progenitor of persian identity itself was Jam Shid. I think "clearing it up" to add Jamshid would require significant revisions to major parts of the article. --Venerable Bede 21:46, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. In the Avesta he is Yima Khshaeta. Vendidad, Fargard 2, says he is the Zoroastrian "Noah", but he is not the first man. Gayomard is. The 7000 years thing though. Honestly, I mean really. That's just a tad pre-history. But speaking of the historical Noruz, swastikas have been uncovered. Someone should document this and add it perhaps. The Swastika, of course, has nothing to do with Zoroastrianism, but with the common Aryan ancestry with the Indo-Aryans (Indians). Khirad 08:53, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Jamshid was an Iranian king but not of Persia, but of whole Iranzamin! --ShapurAriani 20:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Expansion
OK, I'm not actually Persian nor have I even witnessed this, so I'm sure there are errors... &mdash;Ashley Y 03:58, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)

The biggest oversight is the ommission of Hajji Ferouz, the "Santa Claus" of Iran.--Aufidius 00:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not actually a Persian, but in Ismaili Muslim Community Nauroz is celebrated as a religious festival. An egg is syombolised for the new year.

merger of Näwrüz into Norouz
I know there are many cultures that celebrate it, but Norouz is more commonly known for being persian (Iranian) and I think they should be kept separate.


 * I think they should merge. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  22:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * But why? They are very similar, but a bit different.

Näwrüz redirected here, the contents were already present so nothing is changed. Kaveh 12:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)Milk

See Persian means "Fars" or "Farsi." It does not mean Irani so when you use it instead of Iranian or Irani it excludes other Iranians like Kurds who celebrate Norouz all over Kurdistan. That is why they get offended. Iranians never refered to Iran as Persia either and always as Iran. Persians are a sub-group of Iranians just like Kurds, Lurs, and Balouch.

Newroz
I suggest to move the page to Newroz because the later spelling is more common than Nozouz or anything else. Thank you.

 D iyako Talk + 21:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That's the original word, norouz. All the other spellings should be redirected to here. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.105.18.230 (talk • contribs).

The "Newroz" page should be added to Norouz, as the basic principles of the celebration are the same. The former is an ethnic variation of the main Norouz celebration, just as there is a section on the Afghan variant, or indeed, even Bahai, under the heading of "Norouz". The celebration is an Iranian one, which with the break-up of the country through the centuries, has become a "Pan-Iranian" festivity. So it is celebrated in all countries where the are or have been Iranians, such as Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, etc. Kurds are not different to the rest of Iranians in that they make up one of the basic elements from which the country was made up over two and a half millenia ago, just as Brittany is a part of France, Yorkshire is a part of UK, California is a part of USA, Bavaria is a part of Germany, and so on. Each has a slight variation in their local cultures and traditions, but that does not make them a separate nation. The empire was founded by a half-Persian/half Mede king who unified the people living in the region into one nation. The Kurdish separatists, just like the Azeri, Arab, and Afghan separatists before them have ulterior motives, often with the support, backing and provocation of foreign powers who want to break up the nation. The break up of the country is a backward step towards the time when we were tribes fighting with our neighbours over scraps.

There is only one Christmas, there is only one Hannukah, there is only one Diwali. Let there be only one Norouz, and may it forever be Pirouz (victor)!

suggested rephrase of lead sentence
On 16:20, 23 February 2006 Shervink changed
 * Norouz ... is the traditional Persian festival
 * to
 * Norouz ... is the traditional Iranian festival
 * with the comment: Iranian is more accurate, since many Iranians who celebrate Norouz would not necessarily describe themselves as Persians as well.

Actually, I see the new version as being the more inaccurate of the two, but this could be a matter of semantics: in Iran itself, Persia is apparently considered to be restricted to Pars (Fars), wheras outside Iran, Persia is equated with everything that once was the Persian Empire (Iranians who live outside Iran do this too).

But:
 * 1) It may well be that Iranians who celebrate Norouz don't consider themselves Persians, I don't see how that factoid is relevant to this article. In other words: That Norouz is also celebrated by Iranians who are non-Persians is not a reason why Norouz is not a traditional Persian festival.
 * 2) The second paragraph clearly states: the festival of Norouz is celebrated in many countries that were territories of, or influenced by, the Persian Empire.
 * 3) Persia existed long before Iran began to be considered an actual geographical area, and almost two thousand years before the term Iranian became associated with national affiliation. Until  (relatively) recent history, Iran wasn't a state at all, but a people. Jamshid ruled the "lands of the Airyane" (Avestan Airyane, "noble").

Incidentally, Jamshid, who is also said to have introduced Norouz, is a character of Persian mythology - the name of which has nothing to do with the region of Pars (or Fars), as the Greeks used it, but with the the concept of the Persian empire, which was a vast area. Moreover, the Shahnameh is Persian literature, in the Persian language.

Suggestion: rephrase the sentence
 * Norouz ... is the traditional &lt;xxx&gt; festival of (the first day of) spring.
 * to
 * Norouz ... is an ancient festival of (the first day of) spring celebrated throughout the Caucasus, particularly in Iran, where the festivities last for 12 days.''

-- Fullstop 12:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. It has the strongest significance, if I can argue that in the Caucasus, even more so than Iran. I also want the clear indication that it is an Iranian cultural and historic trait that is embedded in different Iranian socities. Less emphasis on Persian. To be honest it was the Mede (the ancestors of the Kurds) who developed it. It is Iranian not Persian. We can not override the broader term Iranian with Persian. It is like calling the USSR by Russia, when it reality it was more thanone state. Iranians have always called Iran by that name. Persia is what the Greeks wrongly refered to Iran from the name of one of its provinces and tribes. Even Cyrus and Darius refered to the Empire as Iran or the Iranian Empire. Our termology must be correct. It usage of terms like 'Persian' which are very problamatic and used by seperatists and foreigners (i.e. Britain and America) who try and divide Iran up through manipulation of facts and history.


 * cite your source(s) please [with respect to "it was the Mede who developed it"]
 * please suggest an alternate lead sentence with which you would be happy.
 * -- Fullstop 16:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Dispute
Newroz existed thousands years before Iranian invaders. Especially among babylons, Akkads, and other non-Iranian peoples of Middle East. The article almost claims it is originally Iranian!  D iyako Talk + 23:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * And where did you get this obsecure piece of information from? How can this Iranian religion have existed before Iranian 'invaders'? Do you take medication which you sometimes forget? --Kash 00:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Until you provide academic sources for this claim, I am removing the dispute tag. --Kash 00:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Please provide a source. --ManiF 00:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps everyone could be made happy if everyone reads, and made alternate suggestions. *sigh* Can't we have constructive co-operation instead of more "I am right" dogma? :) -- Fullstop 17:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggested split
It seems that the Persian and the Kurdish Newroz are two quite different things. What about splitting it up in two articles? Biji Newroz! Bertilvidet 15:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, You are right. besides it has its own long material and soon will be expanded totally.  D iyako Talk + 16:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Eid festival
Eid festival:
 * In Turkish, these celebrations are called Bayram. Bayram means feast in Turkish and usually in international community (especailly non Muslims) bayram (Turkish) is used other than Arabic forms.
 * In modern Iran, Eid may refer to more holidays, including Nowrooz, Ghadir Khom, and the birthday of some Shia Imams.

If this is true the claim that "Nowruz ... is a public holiday in Turkey, where it is called Bayram in Turkish and Newroz in Kurdish" in this article is probably not true. According to the name is NEVRUZ --Fasten 17:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes and Nevruz which already I have created a stub for it is totally different from the Iranian version, although both are celebrated for the comming of spring.  D iyako Talk + 18:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * How is it.."TOTALLY DIFFERENT"? the link you have provided describes that its pretty much the same thing!

"Nevruz, a composite noun combining Nev (new) and Ruz (day), means new day and is a mythologic day celebrated as New Year’s Day by Turks living in Central Asia, Anatolian Turks and Persians. " --Kash 20:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * whatever the name is, norouse, nowruz, nourouse, nowroos, nevruz, newrose.. these all are the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.105.18.230 (talk • contribs).

Merge
I think it is a good idea --Kash 21:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Diyako, can you please explain why the Kurdish version of the holiday is so different that it needs its own article? We don't have an article about the Russian version of Christmas for example. --Khoikhoi 21:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Can I just quote Bertilvidet who suggested the Kurdish version should have its own page, now says in the other talk page ..

"I guess the history is the same, and I dont know if the current ways of celebrating it are the same among Kurds as among Persians. It would be OK for me if this article solely deals with political implications of the Kurdish celebrations of Newroz - in the case that the history, traditions and rites are the same." --Kash 21:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am very honoured to be quoted here. But please dont take it for more than just my humble opinion. Newroz has a political/ethnical significance for Kurds (at least in Turkey) that makes it deserve its own artice. Bertilvidet 23:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the merge. Specially about Kurdish version since it is almost exactly the same. The minor differences, and they are minor, can be mentioned in a section in main page Norouz which is an Iranian (not Persian but Iranian) celebration. We can have section called Kurdish Version and differences are not going to be more than a few sentences!! having a separate page is useless since it is just repeating the same stuff. it is exactly as khoikhoi said, similar to having a christmas page for every christian coutnry.

Gol 22:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Kurds are in fact an Iranian people. So basically, it would be illogical not to merge the two articles together. Good idea Kash, I was thinking along those lines myself. As others have already mentioned, minor discrepancies (if we can call them discrepancies at all) can be noted in an individual subsection within the “Iranian Nowruz” framework. --QajarCoffee 23:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've already explained everything. There are many things that despite of having some similarities but still are different and distinct from eachother; for example: Persians and Tajiks are very similar but they have their own articles because they are different. The Kurdish Newroz is not the same as Iranian Norouz and the article on Kurdish Newroz discusses the details on the Kurdish New Year. I do not think Iran and Iranian is a holy thinh that every Middle Eastern tradition should be indentified with it. I even accepted to mention the Kurdish Newroz on this article.  D iyako Talk + 23:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First, every one, let me congratulate you on the occasion of Norouz (with whatever spelling) and wish you a new year of health, prosperity, openness, truth, and new beginnings. This issue is so ridiculously clear there is absolutely no reason for discussion. Norouz is not a Kurdish festival, it is Iranian, and thus also celebrated by Kurds like all other Iranians. The article claiming it is merely Kurdish or Turkish must be deleted, and any attempt at preserving such a thing is nothing short of vandalism. It is a disgusting lie, it is essentially in no way different than for example saying George Bush is Japanese. Both are lies, and both would be vandalism. Articles such as this cannot destroy the ancient Iranian identity. The real thing we should be worried about here is the credibility of Wikipedia, which is decreasing day by day due to the nonsense added to it by a bunch of idiots. Shervink 23:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)shervink


 * Do you really find that those of us who find that the Kurdish celebration of Newroz deserves an article is a bunch of idiots? Then please clarify that, because I dont consider myself as an idiot. Maybe we can find a common settlement by corporating rather than islulting one another. Bertilvidet 23:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If you are neither misinformed, nor have bad intentions, the only alternative remaining is that you cannot think very clearly. Norouz is not Kurdish, it is Iranian, and a page claiming that it is only Kurdish is simply lying to the reader. There is nothing to discuss about that. (Or would you accept it if I created a page claiming Russia is a province of France? If I did, you would have every right to call me an idiot.) Shervink 23:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)shervink


 * OK, feel free to think that I am an idiot. But may I suggest you rather to use your efforts on solving the issue and finding a comrpomise than embarking on personal attacks. Bertilvidet 00:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

First the festival of spring is not only common among Iranians, there are many other nations who celebrate it, second I do not think all of the world belong to Russia or USA, you are claiming that this should only be Iranian. Third, Kurdish spring festival Kurdish Newroz is different than other nations festivals such as Iranian Norouz. I think we should be at least a litttle neutral and accept that this world is much bigger than Iran, and Iran and Iranians are just part of this world.  D iyako Talk + 23:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Another thing for all Iranian friends: I certainly do not oppose the article Norouz. I'm even still ready to help to improve this article. (Norouz).  D iyako Talk + 00:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So, you say Diyako, yet, you still disrupt this and other articles in order to inject some unsubstantiated Kurdish notions to these articles. At some point some actions can be called vandalism, e.g., erasing sections that come with scholary sources like that of Western scholars. Just be warned please that you need to be factual and work with others. Zmmz 00:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

If Norouz has political significance for Kurds, it can be mentioned in the Kurdistan page or the Kurdish people page or if we have a page related to Kurdish politics or even briefly in the Norouz article itself. Having separate articles creates the misunderstanding that Kurdish version is different while it is in fact identical. I have read the whole page and it is simply repeating the same stuff. One paragraph in the main page Norouz is enough to describe all the MINOR differences that exist.

thank you

Gol 09:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge, definitely. Kaveh 09:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Kaveh, you just unilateraly deleted an article here, including its disucssion. This is a very bad behavior, when we discuss the article hedre. May I suggest you to seek a settlement we can agree on and participate in the talk rather than destructing. Bertilvidet 10:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If such destruction occurs again I am afraid we will have to protect the page. Hope it wil not be necesary. Bertilvidet 10:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Removing that fictitious article is removing vandalism, and Kaveh was very right to do so, his behavior is in accordance with WP policy which states that vandalism should be removed as soon as it is observed. Shervink 10:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

Kaveh actually didn't. I was wrong and I apology for my false accusations. Bertilvidet 11:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Rephrase the title
Respected user Diyako

First and foremost Newroz píroz be!( newrozet pirozbad...now that wasnt very different) I understand your concern about trying to highlight what extra political significance newroz may have had for our kurdish brothers in turkey and syria and I am sure you do not believe that the two festivals are different its true the coming of spring may have had an important place in many ancient cultures but the philosophy of the merge is to embrace one's kurdish brother rather than say your christmass tree is yellow compared to my towering and tall one

Please your article on newroz is quite significant in that it actually proves that kurds are part of the Iranian family since the ban takes place in turkey and syria while the smoke over Bukan is visible in all its glory and the further from the capital of the islamic republic the more well preserved are the traditions.

But in order to respect the unity of it all rephrase your newroz as newroz and the recent kurdish history or newroz survival and politics wherein you could with the help of other editors emphasise how the survival of this festival amid attacks of cultural wipeout by khomeinism among other anti culture movements has become a symbol of an ancient unified heritage

Again a happy newroz to all kurds Lurs Azeris Baluchs Tajiks Gilakis Mazis and all the other glorious flowers on this beautiful carpet of human history and culture--Loosekarma 03:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear Loosekarma, Diyako says: Kurds are not of the Iranian stock !!! He/she does not believe that Kurds are Iranian and that's why he/she is insisting on making a separate page. He/she has been involved in destroying Iranian pages for a long time. --Sina Kardar19:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion
Why this is the Kurdish Newroz article that should be removed in the name of Merge?? why not the Iranian one?  D iyako Talk + 10:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Because Norouz is Iranian, which includes all Kurdish customs. You wouldn't delete the article on christmas either just because it might be mentioned in the articles on Germany or France or whatever.Shervink 10:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)shervink


 * It would be appropriate for you to seek a consensus before altering a transliteration redirect page into a new article. In any event, your article including its history is at Norouz and the Kurds. And don't make this a political issue. Unless it is, in which case I suggest The Politics of Norouz as another title. Kaveh 10:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You even did not respect to the Kurdish title Newroz and just used the Iranian term norouz which by itself is another insult to Kurdish culture that should be in submission to the Iranian one.  D iyako Talk + 10:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually like "Newroz" better myself, if you'd like we can gain consensus to rename this article. But for now it is called Norouz in Wikipedia. And there is no Iranian term at play here, Persian doesn't use this alphabet. Kaveh 10:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggested compromise
Deat co-editors.

When I yesterday proposed a seperate article for the Kurdish celebrations I had no hint that it could create such an outcry. It is however highly disprutive and not fruitful for seeking consensus and a climate for willingness to compromise to repetively delete the article that is written about the Kurdish Newroz. May I suggest that we respect the sensitivities of our Iranian co-editors and rename the Newroz-article to "Kurdish Newroz celebrations" or limit it to "Newroz in Turkey". Bertilvidet 10:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So what about Syria? what about Iraq? what about most of other Kurds in Iran?  D iyako Talk + 10:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a good point - and indeed newroz celebrations are also important for the Kurdish diaspora. My suggestion the is that we rename the current Newroz article to "Kurdish Newroz celebrations". But before we do that the Norouz article should be re-written so it reflects a broad and comprehensive introduction to Norouz, and makes it clear that it celebrated not only in Iran. Bertilvidet 10:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am troubled by the upset over transliteration of a name. We pick one and stick to it. I see Diyako had suggested before for this article to be renamed. Maybe we should settle that first? Kaveh 10:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did.  D iyako ;;;;Talk + 10:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

But today i have collected much info on the Kurdish celebration of Newroz. in any case I support existance of such article.  D iyako Talk + 10:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So do I, it is highly relevant and I consider its deletion as vandalism. But we might consider renaming the article in order to show respect for sensitivities of our Iranian co-editors. Bertilvidet 10:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes you are right.I respect them and their culture and history.  D iyako Talk + 10:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Are we cool then? I actually did think of "Newroz and the Kurds", but I mean it seemed a bit shallow to focus on the name than the contents. But if we are to rename this entry, I am all for Newroz. Kaveh 10:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, it is not deleted. It was moved, because there was a precedent in that Newroz redirected to this page. I am still not sure which is the case here, it seems Diyako wants to use the common Kurdish transliteration of the name (when written in Latin alphabet) and Bertilvidet, more broadly, is interested in the Norouz in connection with the Kurdish people. Maybe we should work that out then? Kaveh 10:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear kaveh, First when I came I thought you have removed the article, when I saw the moved page, thought that it is not a bad Idea but really the title was not proper D iyako Talk + 10:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my bad. I should have left a message for you beforehand. If you'd like, move Norouz and the Kurds to Newroz and the Kurds. I still think it's better for Norouz/Newroz to have a single name on the articles here. But I guess words could mean more to some than others. Kaveh 10:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm waiting to see what is dear Bertilvidets opinion for the Kurdish article. But for this article, do you think that some Iranian users agree with Newroz? D iyako Talk + 11:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well it's the least one can hope for. I mean the whole thing is such a mess: Norooz, Noruz, Norouz, Newroz, Newruz, etc. I think it's better we all pick a term and promote it. Newruz/Newroz works best, in my opinion, when marketing the concept to English speakers. In anycase, I'm tired, having just arrived from a New Year party. Hope you can reach a sensible outcome yourselves. Wish you the best this Newroz and happy New Year! Kaveh 11:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In encyclopedia britannica Noruz is used and in this academic ((Removed link, its blacklisted!)) Norooz is used for the title. We need to select one. The same word should be used to make pages like "Norooz in Kurdistan", "Norooz in Afghanistan", "Norooz in Tajikistan" and so on. Then you can also explain in the bodies of the pages that how local people pronounce the word. --Sina Kardar19:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikstan all are Persian-speaking while Kurds are Kurdish-speaking, They have their own name for their festival. No need for Persian names. D iyako Talk + 19:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Greater Iran also includes: Afghanistan, Arran (Republic of Azerbaijan) and Central Asian Republics. ((Removed link, its blacklisted!)) We need one name for this festival. The name should be taken from an acedmic source. --Sina Kardar19:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Disputeing the vandal merging
There is a Kurdish new year festival and it has and deserves it own article. You have not the write to censor it.  D iyako Talk + 15:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Noruz is an Iranian New Year festival often associated with Zoroastrianism and Parsiism. There is nothing called Kurdish Newuz or Tajik Newruz or Afghan Newruz etc.

References: Noruz at Encyclopedia Britannica:

Noruz as the festival associated with Iranian new year:

NOROOZ, THE NEW YEAR OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLES by The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies at University of London:((Removed link, its blacklisted!))

Stop vandalism! --Sina Kardar18:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed an interesting point. It is a matter of fact that Kurds celebrate Newroz every year, and that this celebration is an important manifestation of Kurdish identity. Is it vandalism to describe this fact on Wikipedia? If yes, you should also attack the article Christmas_customs_in_the_Philippines. Bertilvidet 18:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Christmas is Christmas. and has only one page in wikipedia. The same should be the case for Norooz. About your claim on Kurdish identity, you have to provide an academic source. Norooz is by no means some thing by which you can differentiate Kurds from other people in the world. It is rather a unifying factor for Iranians (Persians, Kurdish, Lors, Tajiks, Mazanis, Gilakis etc) rather than a differentiating factor for Kurds. It is a manifestation of Iranian identity rather than Persian identity or Kurdish identity or Lur identity etc. --Sina Kardar18:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There are many pages about Christmas on Wiki, exactly because there are many different traditions. In the Newroz article this source is provided to substain the importance of Newroz for Kurds. The fact that millions of Kurds celebrate Newroz every year is in itself a proof that it is an important event for Kurds too. Bertilvidet 18:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest you to take your debate at Deletion_policy. Then the rest of us can try to reach a compromise that satifies all parts in meantime. Bertilvidet 18:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with having pages on Norooz in different countries or cities. But it should be stated in all those pages that:Norooz is an Iranian festival. These kurdish wikipedians are trying to say that it is not Iranian. This is vandalism. Norouz is an Iranian festival and Kurds do belong to Iranian people. I am Persian and we have far more population than Kurds and Norooz is our most important festival (and the only festival that is still alive for us). I am still waiting to see one academic source for your claim. --Sina Kardar18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit I'm disappointed Bertilvidet. We agreed on a title similar to the Philippines example. But I see the "Newruz" article was maintained. In addition, Diyako seems to be only interested in inserting the common Kurdish transliteration of the word more than having an article on Norouz/Newruz and its impact on the Kurdish people. If this is what you both seek there is no point in further discussions. Kaveh 18:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Kaveh, I am afraid we didnt reach an agreement yet. The article on Xmas in the Philippines cannot be used as a template for the Newroz celebration. I still argue that we should have an article on Kurdish Newroz celebrations, and it would be fine for me to rename it as such. The historical part could be in a comprehensive, general article about Norouz. Bertilvidet 19:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That is indeed what was agreed upon. So why is it still at Newroz? Incidentally, we have to use one title for the concept. It is not "Xmas in the Philippines" nor is it "Feliz Navidad in the Philippines". Kaveh 20:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

First your source does not claim Norouz is Iranian or at least merely Iranian, your third source is biased and is not a neutral one. I have discussed it before. for eample look at its biased slogan in the right corner above the page that says if there is no iran I'll die!! or that petition against oppressed azeri people In Iran. Secondly, My sources are not Kurdish also the are many Kurdish ones but I only have provided source from non-Kurdish sources or at least articles which are written by non-Kurdish people. Thrd, As I said there is a Kurdish New year and Newroz is its celebration and deseves it own article.  D iyako Talk + 18:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Norooz (Nowruz, Nevruz, Newruz, Navruz) in Persian means "New [-year]-day". It is the beginning of the year for the peoples of Iran (Greater Iran, including: Afghanistan, Arran (Republic of Azerbaijan) and Central Asian Republics).

Turkey too has decided to declare Norooz a holiday. It is also celebrated as the New Year by the people of the Iranian stock, particularly the Kurds a, in the neighboring countries of Georgia, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.

-- Sina Kardar19:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Kurds are not of the Iranian stock.  D iyako Talk + 19:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * you are not an expert. The above sentences was taken from the academic source that I provided above ((Removed link, its blacklisted!)). Provide an academic source which defined Newruz as a non-Iranian Kurdish festival. --Sina Kardar19:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

--- Summary: There exist no Non-Iranian Kurdish Norooz. --Sina Kardar20:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know for that but there is a Kurdish Newroz.  D iyako Talk + 20:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Peace settlement
Can we reach common ground on these 6 guiding principles?

1.	The current ”Newroz” article is renamed ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”.

2.	All transliterations of نوروز (including Newroz) redirects to ”Norouz”

3.	At the top of the ”Norouz” article there is a link to ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”.

4.	The ”Norouz” article gives a comprehensive coverage of Norouz, both its history, contemporary celebrations and variations.

5.	The ” Kurdish Newroz Celebrations” article focuses mainly on contemporary Newroz celebrations among Kurds, including its political implications.

6.	If desired, everyone is free to set up additional articles covering local/regional variations of Norouz.

I kindly request you to only discuss these proposals in this section. How the history will be written etc. will be dealt with later. Bertilvidet 20:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Here are my suggestions:

--User:Sina Kardar20:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 1. In any sister pages, it must be mentioned that this is an Iranian festival.
 * 2. The title for sister pages must have the original title (e.g. Norouz). In the body we can mention local pronounciation.
 * 3. The titles of sister articles are better to be : "Norouz celebrations in Kurdistan" and so on.
 * 4. There is no need to have a link at the top of Norouz article. We can have links to all sister pages at See also section.


 * I disagree this is s pushing pov. I think we should ask for mediation D iyako Talk + 20:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You were not able to answer any of my comments above. I have sources for what I say. I am a Persian. I could say Persian New year. I refused to do that, not because I did not have academic sources for that. Just to be more more positive to Kurds. I have also sources indicating that Newruz is not only Iranian but also non-Kurdish. I did not offer those evidences. Please assume good faith. --Sina Kardar20:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * How about New Year Celebrations Amongst the Kurds? In addition, a link at the top of Norouz is a non-starter. I think it is more appropriate to be introduced in the introduction or one of the sections. Kaveh 20:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”. Newroz is the word used by the Kurds, and as I see it is more a cultural celebration than actually a new year since Kurds in Turkey only use the gregorian calender. Bertilvidet 20:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, this is the English Wikipedia. You don't find an article here on Weihnachten in Germany. Nor will you find one on نوروز in Iran. See my suggestion on "Newroz" below. Kaveh 21:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Neither نوروز, norouz nor newroz is English. In English language Neworz is however used when talking about the Kurdish celebrations. Bertilvidet 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * And all sources provided by me are English not Kurdish.  D iyako Talk + 21:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That doesn't matter. We are not trying to rename this article. We already have agreed on this name as a community. This discussion has a different scope. Kaveh 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Newruz and Norouz are the ways Kurds refer to Kurdish Norouz Celebrations. The latter title is what I suggest. or even better Norouz celebrations in Kurdistan. The word Norouz is also used in Kurdish mediaSee here. --User:Sina Kardar21:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No not i'm not sure for the word 'Kurdistan' because many Kurds live outside Kurdistan. but the 'common' word for Kurdish celabration of spring is Newroz, nothing else otherwise.  D iyako Talk + 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree. We have articles like "Culture of Iran" which is about "Iranian cuture". It does not mean that there is no Iranian out of Iran who share Iranian culture. But the big majority of Iranians are in Iran. So If you search for "Iranian culture" in wikipedia, you will be diverted to "Cuture of Iran". The same story is true here. I personally want to start a page on Norouz of Mazndarani people. I also need to have a consistent title. And I do believe a good title is Norouz celebrations in Mazandaran. --User:Sina Kardar21:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I really like Bertilvidet's suggestions. The only thing is that there need not be a link at the very top; there should be a section on regional variations, and one section of that will be the Kurdish variation, which will sumarize the celebrations, and have a main link to the full "Kurdish Newroz Celebrations" article.  In regards to the suggestions by Sina Karder, I don't really think how the transilteration of نوروز appears in those pages or in the titles of those pages matters.  -- Jeff3000 20:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine for me Bertilvidet 20:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The summary idea is excellent. Can we agree on the title then? Kaveh 20:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Newroz is the spring celebrtion of Kurds although due to persecution and political restriction which is special to Kurdish community it was unkmown untill recent years (and was or still is illegal) but it is part of Kurdish culture and indentity. I even cannot imagine to censor that word. .  D iyako Talk + 20:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * These political restrictions are only in Turkey and Syria, Not in Iran. Turkish people and Arabs do not like Iranians including Kurds. Newruz has nothing to do with Kurdish identity in Iran. --User:Sina Kardar20:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not "that word" anymore, you see. This is the English Wikipedia. If someone forced the Kurdish Wikipedia not to use Newroz, that would be censorship. I am sympathetic to your pains, but we can't make this a political statement. As of now we work with Norouz, any other alternative is fair game pending community consensus. Kaveh 20:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, I accept an entry on "Newroz" explaining, say, the history of using Latin alphabet in a Kurdish context and the pronunciation along with political ramifications of the word in Turkey and elsewhere. But any article dealing with the celebration should be created using the accepted norm. If you would like to change that norm, be blunt and pursue that end. But please don't confuse the situation by using alternative transliterations. Kaveh 20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The word Norouz is acceptable bacause UNESCO is registering the festival under this name and spelling. --User:Sina Kardar20:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, I've provided several non-Kurdish neutral, reliable and verifiable sources that Newroz is the Kurdish celebration of spring. Iran has a Kurdish community which during history there have been too much animosity between them and the central government, The Iranians want to assimilate Kurds but Kurds resist, here I see the same anti-Kurdish political POV.  D iyako Talk + 20:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It is not true. You need to provide source. Newruz has never been a political issue in Iran. If you do not agree, provide one source. --User:Sina Kardar20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Kurdish celebration is no different to the Iranian festival, its just a different name and some political seperatists.

First we have to put it in the Norouz article, and if it was necessary to have a seperate page for it (unlikely) then we can do that later. --Kash 21:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It is not even a different name, Norooz, Norouz, Nowrouz, Nowrooz, Newrooz, Newrouz, Nevrooz, Nevrouz, Nevruz, Newruz, ... It's all obviously the same word! Shervink 22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)shervink


 * Respected user Diyako you claim that

"The Iranians want to assimilate Kurds but Kurds resist, here I see the same anti-Kurdish political POV " Iam sorry but how is the idea of the joint celebration of the same festival anti kurdish ...if you invite a relative over to celebrate new year is that then a political attack I tried to convince you to rephrase your article's title ...Bertilvidet mentions christmass in Poland which was close to my earlier suggestion to have an article on the "Newroz and Kurds" or as Jeff3000 suggested a section on regional variations in the main one. or what I thought would be an even more interesting article such as "Newroz, survival and politics" wherein you could with the help of other editors emphasise how the survival of this festival amid attacks of cultural wipeout by anti culture movements in history be it arab invasion or recent despotic regimes in mid east has become a symbol of an ancient unified heritage....since the preservation of it has been a triumph for all Iranian people be it the one's under soviets or baath party or the islamic republic of Imam e Zaman

'''but if unified joy in this ancient custom and joint celebration is anti Kurdish POV then Bertilvidet shouldnt conclude that Kurds have no friends but the mountains ... but that our friend Diyako considers our greetings as an insult'''--Loosekarma 23:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Possible version for Norouz
I've updated the Norouz article, but in my user space, so no one gets mad. It's currently at User:Jeff3000/Norouz. Please take a look and comment, and make changes on that page. If enough people think it's ok, we can move it back here. -- Jeff3000 05:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it looks great. Except instead of having the title at "Newroz and the Kurds" I think something like "Kurdish celebration of Newroz" is a better idea. --Khoikhoi 05:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Many Thanks Jeff3000 looks fine, how verifiable is the argument that it was Haft Sheen actually and that it was changed to Haft Seen post Islam?--Loosekarma 06:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Support 100%. Can be renamed per Khoikhoi. The argument of Loosekarma is detailed and should not determine the principal support for Jeff3000's proposal. Bertilvidet 10:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow a lot has happened over the night. Some changes have happened to this page, which kind of go towards my changes, (the section on the Kurdish section is larger here, than on my suggestion, and the Baha'i and Fasli haven't been moved, etc).  And I think there is some movement to having an article of Kurdish celebration of Newroz or Norouz celebration of the Kurds, or something of that sort, instead of just Newroz (see the talk page of Newroz).  I think all that remains is the spelling of Norouz/Newroz in that title, and the intro in that page.
 * Is it ok, if I move my page to this page, as it has a better logical structure? I would do it now, except Diyako (who is the main person against the current wording/etc) has not commented.  If people think it's ok to move my suggestion here without his comment, please proceed.  I won't be at the front of the computer for 5 or 6 hours, so someone please take my version and paste here once you think the time is right. -- Jeff3000 14:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you can go ahead. Diayok said so on my talk page: Yes sure I agree with proposal of Jef3000, It is good. I support also an article on the Kurdish version, whether the title of the article is 'Newroz', or 'Kurdish celebration of Newroz' or 'Kurds and Newroz'. It seems that we have an agreement :-D Bertilvidet 14:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. -- Jeff3000 23:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have yet to see any sources to verify that all Kurds celebrate Newroz, as I had expressed before Iranian Kurds still celeberate Norouz, and same is possibly for the Iraqi Kurds. For now its OK, but I have labelled the pictures correctly now, as they were all taken in a PKK rally, which was pretty much obvious with the hundreds of PKK flags on each image --Kash 11:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Unless its a Kurdish custom to have PKK flags at Newroz celebration ;)? --Kash 11:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The omnipresent flags are not PKK flags, but the symbol of the Democratic Society Party. Turkish authorities would never tolerate a PKK rally. The celebration was organized by a range of Kurdish cultural groups, political parties, and I think also the main Turkish Human Right organisation. Bertilvidet 11:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, whatever political rally it is, I'd prefer it to be mentioned. --Kash 12:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You can call it mix of festival, celebration and political rally. Or a politisized celebration. The fire pic is from the same event. Democratic Society Party is one among other organising groups. I find thus the current despriction misleading, but refuse to embark in an edit war. Bertilvidet 12:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Calling it "Celebration of Newroz festival" is also misleading. Jumping over fire is part of the festival I am sure, but not having hundreds of a political party flags up and covering your faces also with their flag. --Kash 12:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The event does indeed have both political connotations and implications. These can be elaborated in the article. But still it is a celebration. A political rally would be used to show a common opinion and have some common political demands - this is the case for many Kurdish demonstrations, but not for the Newroz celebration. In fact there are no political messages on the banners (except the symbol of a party, and the text Biji Newroz) Bertilvidet 12:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't it OK now, with a "controversies" section in the Kurdish celebration of Newroz article and a short summary here??? Bertilvidet 22:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it is, can we get an admin to unprotect the Newroz page, and get it redirected? -- Jeff3000 00:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not happy that you removed the image's descriptions. I say we should remove the pictures (beside the man jumping over fire one), if you don't feel comfortable to label them correctly. --Kash 02:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Norouz is an old Persian word
Norouz is NOT an Avestan word. I can post hundreds of links to prove this. I have NEVER seen the word being referred to as "Avestan", therefore I have made the appropriate changes. Dariush4444 02:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Relevance of Bahai fate
Why is it that there are numerous references to the bahai fate of islam in a Norouz article? I mean isn't all those billions of dollars you bahais have somehow, enuff for you? You still making commercial for your fate, and in no other article than the norouz, the several thousand year old celebration of new year! --Darkred 18:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Baha'is celebrate NawRuz, that is a fact. Please don't censor that fact. -- Jeff3000 02:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Couple other misconceptions that you have introduced: The Baha'i Faith is not Islam, it is a seperate distinct religious practice. This is not a commerical, Wikipedia reports on facts, and the Baha'is celebrate the holiday, and in fact have spread the Iranian celebration to many different parts all accross the world.  There are differences of course, and those are noted in the article.  -- Jeff3000 02:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I did not say baha'i is islam. The bahai is a movement or religion if you want to call it descended from Islam.You say wikipedia reports on facts!. Well my friends wikipedia is not a person and does not edit, its the user that put those things in this article that is making commercial for his fate.(meaning is spreading religious believes and that is against wikipedia regulations).
 * yes norouz has many names, the bahais version of it is called nawruz. i see no reason why we should put in their name of it in a matter of seperating them and their version of the norouz, which is clearly seen here: Norouz marks first day of spring and the beginning of the Iranian and the Bahá'í years. Is that how they have spread the norouz as you said? by sperating themselfs from the iranians and the meaning of norouz?
 * --Darkred 03:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You wrote "bahai fate of islam", and I note that the Baha'i Faith is not of Islam; it spread out of a Islamic religious milieu, just as Christianity spread out of a Judaic mileue. Please assume good faith; this is not a commercial, the Baha'is of all origins celebrate the religion; this is both verifiable and reliable, and will add a lot of references if you want, but I don't want to take over a page that currently does not have a references section at all. Please read the pages on Verifiability, and since Naw Ruz as celebrated by Baha'is is verifiable, it deserves inclusion; this is Wikipedia policy, and it was what I was referring to when saying Wikipedia reports on facts. Secondly, the summary at the top is indeed just that; it mentions two things in regards to the Baha'is; the first is in regard to who celebrates the event, and that includes people from "Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Turkey, Zanzibar, Albania, and various countries of Central Asia,", and their diaspora, but it also is celebrated by Baha'is of all origins, American, Chinese, etc, and this is a significant difference, and should be noted. Secondly the summary mentions that it is the beginning of two calendars, the Baha'i calendar is quite distinct from the Iranian year (19 months of 19 days, + 4 intercalary days). I don't want to get into an argument in regard to Baha'is and Iranians, but when the Iranian government (not Iranian people) have persecuted Baha'is throughout their existence in Iran, how do you expect them to feel (I'm not saying it's right, but it becomes very easy to disassociate yourself from a group that you feel is being unfair towards you). -- Jeff3000 03:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok i compromised once and just deleted the and bahai yearsentence, but it seems you reverted again. I understand that it should be stated here but please edit it yourself so that and bahai year does not come directly after iranian year, menaing put that sentence in another place further down.
 * I really hope we have an agreement here. --Darkred 03:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * done, -- Jeff3000 03:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well by further down i did not mean two words down, meant something like in another sentence not realted to the iranian noruz itself. So there is no confusion about what noruz really is.

I am not a religious man myself so i can assure you i have no bad intentions against bahais or you as a person, please assume good faith. --Darkred 04:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have slightly seperated the Iranian new year from the Baha'i new year, to make sure that no one would confuse the two, and yet you removed it again. It is verifiable information, and does not make sense moving it to another place in the intro. Please do not remove it. -- Jeff3000 04:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes slightly, i compromised last time and let it all be, but still you wont compromise. That sentence about bahai new year does not belong there, like i said before it is already stated in the bahai section of the same article. Furthermore if you mention the bahai new year at top then we might as well mention all the other iranian ethnic group's exclusive date of the new year. I don't see any reason why the bahai should have this privilege over other groups and be mentioned twise on the top of the page! --Darkred 05:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The summary part at the top is different. Norouz is the start of two calendars, and two calendars only, the Iranian calendar, and the Baha'i calendar, and the Baha'i calendar, is verifable information.  Please do not censor information.  If you remove the Baha'i information, it looks like Norouz is the start of only one calendar, and that is false.  The statement only takes an additional 4 words, why do you want to remove it? -- Jeff3000 05:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Because of the reason i said above: why the bahai should have this privilege over other groups and be mentioned twise on the top of the page! --Darkred 05:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I will let this go for now, but later may call in RfC to settle this dispute. --Darkred 05:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If you look at this objectively, the summary talks about two things, and they are quite different.
 * Who celebrates Norouz: Iranian people (and I use this broadly) celebrate it, and so do Baha'is.
 * The second is very different from the first, and it relates to how Norouz is part of calendars, and it's date, and this has nothing to do with who celebrates it, and it starts two calendars, Iranian and Baha'i.


 * These are two different things which are in the summary. Everything is verifiable, and by Wikipedia policy deserves mention. -- Jeff3000 05:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish section
It was too large, it already has its own main article so it doesn't need to be too big on this page -- - K a s h  Talk 10:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with kash--Darkred 10:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Chahar shanbe soori
"Zardiye man az to, sorkhiye to az man" should be understood as an abbriviatio of "Zaridye man az AANE to, sorkhiye to az AANE man" literally: "May my yelleowness belong to you, May your redness belong to me". This in turn symbolized the wish to receive power and health (redness) from and purify the illnesses (yellowness) by fire (in accordance to the holy place fire has in zorostrian faith).130.225.0.210 18:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation
The first sentence of this article gives the IPA pronunciation as "Nowruz". This doesn't look like an IPA pronunciation, although admittedly I could be wrong. --Metropolitan90 05:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The first sentence uses the IPA2 rather than the IPA pronounciation, which are quite different, but easily confused. IPA2 is a way of transliterating Persian. Regards. -- Jeff3000 13:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was thinking of Template:IPA2, which is different. --Metropolitan90 15:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Simple solution
Why dont we just create another article like Christmas worldwide, instead of having one article for each group that celebrates this holiday. Its the same holiday, we should not have so many seperate articles, whats to stop someone from making German Christmans, French Christmas, Chinese Christmas, etc...?Azerbaijani 21:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a possible solution, but how many of these page exist so far to have the need to create a Norouz worldwide. -- Jeff3000 21:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Norouz is celebrated by and in many countries, there is no reason why we shouldn't do this. --Rayis 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be fine with a Newroz worldwide article. But this should not lead to an attack on pages dealing with specific variations and factors of importance of the celebration at some locations. We also have Philippine Christmas traditions and Polish Christmas traditions. (btw, most of it have been discussed before, 1 year ago a merge was also proposed, may I kindly suggest you all to read the talk page here) Bertilvidet 08:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This idea is just preposterous. We have articles like Philippine Christmas traditions and Polish Christmas traditions thus why not have Kurdish Newroz and Persian Newroz and a main Newroz article. Let's remember Christmas is an equivalent celebration to Newroz. Ozgur Gerilla 12:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, those are countries not an ethnic group. Secondly, they are based on different traditions celebrating a festival, however Kurds celebrate it the same. The article existed for a year and no reference has yet been provided to show that the traditions are different to how anyone else celebrates it; it was full of nonsense like "it is a kurdish word and not related to Iran or Turkey", which were not only politically motivated statements but also completley untrue and unreferenced rhetorics. Supporting Kurdish human rights is one thing, making up random facts is another --Rayis 15:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So what are you suggesting, that a countries tradition and celebration is unique enough to be on Wikipedia but not ethnic groups differences. This is not really logical. It's different; from the way Kurds centrelise the fire and symbolize it from the story. Keep the article and my team (WikiProject Kurdistan) will provide the necessary references. Ozgur Gerilla 16:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Its worth noting that this is not an AfD, but merely a proposal to merge. - Francis Tyers · 16:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Fire is an important part of the festival and Norouz is a fundamental Zoroastrian festival, so of course fire is very symbolic in it. The legend behind what Norouz celebrate is exactly the same as Iranians. Any other difference is minor, please provide your references (reliable, neutral, third party sources) now, it has already been a year. --Rayis 13:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think creating Norouz worldwide would be a good compromise, with sections on regional celebrations by Kurds, Mazandranis, Azeris, etc. --Mardavich 13:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Why the "worldwide"? The current article title "Norouz" is perfect for that purpose, with sections added for specifics in each area. I mean, "Norouz" is a worldwide thing anyway, so there's no point in adding the word! Shervink 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
 * Not to replace this article, but to complete it with details about regional traditions of Noroz. --Mardavich 20:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge
The article, "Kurdish celebration of Newroz" should be merged into this section. It is the same holiday. Norouz is the ancient Persian new year. The celebration comes from the Zoroastrian religion. Kurds are one of the ancient Iranian tribes and event today their closest relatives are Persian people. Kurds share their culture and heritage with Persians and other Iranian people. There should not be a duplicate article....it is just confusing for people who are not familiar with the subject.Dariush4444 01:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We've had this discussion above. While they have originated from the same source, the Kurds now see Newroz as a national movement, which is highly politicized.  They have created a new legend as the source of it (which is ficticious but is something they believe in). This is something unique to the Kurds, both in Turkey and abroad.  I'm in the process of completely sourcing the other article, and the verifiable information shall not be deleted. -- Jeff3000 04:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Jeff, as much as I appreciate your efforts, that is your POV. As we discussed above, not all Kurds have the same point of view. When you say "Kurds now see" or "They have created", you are talking about a group of them, minority or majority obviously no one knows. However none of your sources refer to Iranian Kurds and how they see the situation, and also many of your other sources are not based on the matter alone but seem like random parts of books (a medicine for immigrants book?!) that refer to the celebration and should not be used to back up such generalised statements regarding all Kurds --Rayis 14:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * First you complain that there are no sources, and not that I've fully referenced the article, you complain that the sources are not good enough. The sources clearly pass by the criteria of reliable sources.  Instead of complaining, I encourage you to also find sources, rather than wanting to delete attributed statements.  -- Jeff3000 15:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Jeff I said I appreciate your efforts and then, I mentioned that some of your sources are weak and they shouldn't be used to support such generalised statements like Kurds have done this and Kurds believe that, which are not complaints, I am just pointing them out --Rayis 16:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Etymology
The source provided for the etymology section was from an article in Online Encyclopaedia. At the end of the article, it states that This article is from Wikipedia. so I removed it. I am sure better sources can be found.Heja Helweda 19:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

THe Tajiks in China?
I get the impression that Noruz is a Persian-Turkish holiday, so do the Tajiks (who are Persian) who live in China celebrate this as well? Le Anh-Huy 23:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Haji Firuz!
Why is there no section about Haji Firuz? I cant find any good information about this guy anywhere. But from what I've been told, he's a slave who has been freed by the Persians and is celebrating Norouz through silly songs and laughter 216.175.76.251 06:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Sam

Actually Haji Firouz is a representation of a dancing flame. It brings word of the coming new year with joy. His/her face is the black ash of the fire and the clothes are the color of the flame itself.

Untitled
''Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page.'' D.Kurdistani 09:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Archives:
 * Archive 1 - Archived on June 21, 2007
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baba noruz
bsm. please describe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.191.15.10 (talk) 08:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Baba Norouz / Hajji Firouz
Alright, there is a section on hajii firouz but nothing on baba norouz who is even a more persistant cultural icon. M87 23:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Support - I agree, Amoo (uncle) Nowrooz is in a way our equivalent of santa claus and Haji Firooz would be more of a (santas little helper). There should certainly be a section devoted to Amoo Nowrooz. --205.222.248.176 (talk) 12:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

15,000 years!
I added a tag to the claim that Nowruz is 15,000 years old. The claim is ridiculous obviously because the earliest human settlement (city) - Çatalhöyük dates back to 7500 BCE. Obviously, there could be no king Jamshed 15,000 years ago, or no such evidence is produced so far. Atabek (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been bolder and removed that section completely. Most prehistoric societies everywhere would have recognised and marked the spring solstice - but this article is not about that, it is about a specific festival.Meowy 20:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I think Atabek did the right thing for putting a tag, where as Meowy should not have acted bold. That section should go into mythology not history. Here is some links with this regard: []. The ice age in this case has to do with the fact that in some Zoroastrian texts, there was a great ice-age (like the great flood) and Jamshid was responsible for bringing all men and Animals to a special place to guard from the ice age. This is covered in "The legend of the great flood in Zoroastrian tradition" and an old Pahlavi manuscript has described this myth. In Iranian mythology, Jamshid is credited with the foundation of Noruz. He is also said to have lived for 1000 years (very similar to Noah). On exactly when the mythical Jamshid lived, one can look at classical Islamic texts and Tabari. The great ice age that Jamshid saved mankind from by building a subterraneans space should not necessarily be taken as the historic ice age. It might be coincidence that such an ice age/winter is mentioned in Zoroastrian texts or some people might argue that many myths develop from historic events. This is described in Iranian mythology, I'll see where I can fit a mythology section. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 23:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I revised that section by adding factual and sourced materials.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 00:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I was completely right, it seems. By removing it I forced those wanting its return to rewrite it and greatly improve on it. Meowy 16:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right, but say I was not here, then the whole section would be gone :). But thanks for forcing me to bring factual materials about the myth. Interestingly enough, many ancient Greek sources place Zoroaster around 6000 B.C. That is 8000 years ago. Islamic sources place Zoroaster around the time of Abraham.  Modern scholars based on linguistic evidence of Avesta place him around 3000 years ago.  Jamshid in Iranian mythology comes long before Zoroaster.  So I think when someone is talking about "tradition", they do not mean modern history but mythology.  I am always a believer that many myths have historic origin.  So the linkage of Jamshid with the deadly winter (of hundreds of years) to an ice age (11000 years ago), although not provable, is interesting.  In the myth, Jamshid builds an underground world and protects mankind from the frost, snow and deluge to come. Unfortunately, Iranian mythology is not known well in the West but a new translation of the Shahnameh[] should help somewhat [].  Although the Shahnameh represents a later form of Iranian mythology and one needs to go back to the Avesta [] for the earlier form.   --alidoostzadeh (talk) 02:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of ban in Turkey
The article states that Turkey removed a ban on celebrating Nowruz in 1995. But the source given (14), which by the way does not seem to be too reliable, states it was in 2000. I changed the year from 1995 to 2000 because it matches the source and then it is consistent with what I was told myself in Diyarbakir in 2005 (and published in a renowned Spanish weekly, so it's not entirely original research...). On the other hand, the same article states that Turkey adopted the festival in 1995 as a national Turkish festival, which would be very odd if it stayed banned at the same time. The source for the adoption in 1995 can't be read online, so I can't check if it's correctly attributed. Anybody there with more information? Thanks!--Ilyacadiz (talk) 00:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

History section
The claim Following the conquest of Mesopotamia by Cyrus the Great, the founder of Persian Empire, he changed the time of new year from autumn equinox to spring equinox in 538 BC. He followed the pattern of the Mesopotamian festival of Akitu, the divine festival for the sky God of Marduk. in the article looks suspicious. The source is (p. 311 of "Traditional Festivals: A Multicultural Encyclopedia", ISBN 1576070891 ). Look at other publications of the author Christian Roy. There are three problems. 1. The claim in the book is not supported by scholars (at least I can not find.) 2. The claim in the book is not given any reference to Ancient or primary sources. 3. A writer of comic-children stuff is not an RS on ancient history. Should I remove this source and its claim?--Xashaiar (talk) 17:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, This is another source written by Boyce who is very famous orientation on relation between Akitu and Persian Newyear: []--St. Hubert (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi! But this source by M. Boyce that you mention makes no claim like the previous one. It has a reference like maybe..it is possible...that there is a link between Iranian/Persian new year and that of Babylonians. The claim I have problem with, makes a very strong statement about Cyrus the Great. I propose to remove that sentence.--Xashaiar (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Update on your recent edits: please no OR. You are making original research here. Saying that there "there are indications that both Iranians and Indians assumed the first day of autumn as the beginning of new year season" then adding it to something called "nowruz" suggest the claim I mentioned. This is called OR.--Xashaiar (talk) 19:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

What original research? I extracted these materials from the page 3-4 of the Boyce book. I do not have time right now. If you want, you can remove the Cyrus story and update the article with the Boyce assertions--St. Hubert (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I really do not want to explain things that you should consider more seriously before editing. Your source is not page 3-4 it is pp. 33-4. That's the first thing. Second: your source states explicitly: ..they [Iranians] traditionally held festivals in both autumn and spring, to mark the major turning points of the natural year. So what are you doing? From this quote, you see only "autumn"? --Xashaiar (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Dude, I am not anti-Iranian, please calm down. See page 3: It is not known whether the prto-Indo-Iranians celebrated a feast as important...there are indications that both Indians and Iranians thought of autumn as the new year season.

I am going to rewrite this section tonight, using this source. If you really want to help, please help me out instead of arguing with me.--St. Hubert (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not accusing you. The point is that, if in the source there is no explicit reference to NOWRUZ, then linking "undisputed facts" on (any kind of) NEW YEAR FESTIVAL to NOWRUZ is considered OR. Is that clear? you added "perhaps the beginning of autumn was their new year" who says that? Where is it? Your source does not mention this. --Xashaiar (talk) 20:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello! Read page 3 and four carefully. It is written in page 4?--St. Hubert (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello! Would you please undo your edits on history of this page (so that I do not need to revert you) and discuss here the things you want to add and let me (and others maybe) say what I think? At the moment the history section contradicts itself.--Xashaiar (talk) 22:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

You checked my source?

My source does not contradict with anything in the section! It is a highly reliable source. Of course there are many unsourced materials in the section and they should go, not the Boyce statement. I understand that like many Iranians you may not like to see the Mesopotamian origin for Persian New Year. However, there is no such policy in Wiki to censor what we do not like to see. New Civilizations are built over older civilizations achievements and nothing embarrassing that Iranians adopted some older traditions.--St. Hubert (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * what are you talking about? 1. your source page 3-4 does not say anything like that. 2. your understanding of boyce quote is wrong. 3. If boyce has said things come from the time of Zoroaster, then ... I fail to understand your additions.--Xashaiar (talk) 23:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

See this quote: "The...autumn festival of Persian continued..., and perhaps because this had been their earlier new year feast, they seem now to have given it a fresh dedication, calling it Mithrakana...."--St. Hubert (talk) 23:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They had mehrgan too! What boyce, citing biruni, says is that: overall all 6 gahanbars and 1 nowruz have been observed. Now, what we know? 1. In parthian Iran Nowruz was first of farwardin (according to gorgani). also tirgan, sada are kept like in parthian iran. 2. mehrgan was an achaemenid fest. 3. in achaemenid Iran nowruz was 1-6 farwardin (this is because they added 5 days to the end of year but they wanted nowruz unchanged). and so on and so forth ..--Xashaiar (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

All right you seem not to see what the sources say. For all these claims there are sources. But you push for one theory. (Please either remove your non RS or check the summary pp. 115-119 which reviews lots of theories). Should I revert you?--Xashaiar (talk) 01:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Revert vandals
As usual we have a bunch of edit warrers active. User:Alefbe being one of them. Why waste your time undoing others peoples constructive work? Sad. 94.192.38.247 (talk) 13:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to make drastic changes in this article, first you should discuss it here. Alefbe (talk) 14:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I haven't made any drastic changes. You have been edit warring, vandalising, making malicious and unfounded complaints, and ignoring messages. A report has been made about you for incivility and sockpuppet suspicion. 94.192.38.247 (talk) 15:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

recent edits
What is going on? Why don't you people use the talk page? Wikipedia has enough guidelines to solve most of disputes.--Xashaiar (talk) 16:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, as you can see I have used the talk page. It seems that more people break the guidelines than follow them. There are many registered users on wikipedia who are ruining the project and trying to destroy the efforts of the rest of us. Also, I never dreamed how big a sin it seems to be, to be using a static IP to edit. Is the biggest taboo on wikipedia? It's pathetic. 94.192.38.247 (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The Truth about Nowuz
Nowruz is an ancient celebration that started in Ancient Aryana, which includes all of Afghanistan and parts of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Iran. It is an ANCIENT ARYANA New Year, not Persian new year. Today Iranian's claim everything that comes out of Aryana Afghanistan as their own. It is very unjust that the world keeps getting misinformed about Aryana Afghanistan's history because most people of Afghanistan are not educated about their culture and history to speak for themselves: they had to struggle for so many years protecting their land from outsiders that it left the majority of the population very uneducated about their civilization. As a result, Iranians have stolen most of Aryana Afghanistan's ancient history, and tried to prove it correct with their own version of what happened.

Nawruz is a celebration that was left from the time of King Yama, ruler of of the first Aryana kingdom, 5000 years ago. It took place in the ancient city of Balk(today's Afghanistan). This use to be the capital of the Aryana Kingdom back then. During this period, there was no Persian empire. The center of Aryana was modern day Afghanistan. This is where the ancient Zoroastrian faith also started.

Also, some Iranian's claim that there is a huge difference between Dari and Farsi. In reality, Dari and Farsi are the same. Dari is the formal version of Farsi that was used inside courts and other high places. But today, most Iranian's claim it to be two separate languages due to their own insecurities. Instead of holding the hands of a people who share a common language as their own, today the Iranian government does not allow any people of Aryana Afghanistan to even attend their schools. So what they've done is taken anything that is good from Aryana Afghanistan, and labeled it's people as beggars and uncivilized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TherealAryan (talk • contribs) 17:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The talk about present day Iran on the article just begins from this section: Nowruz. You have good points and valid concerns about history, but what you say doesn't contradict the present content. You may wish to improve it. And most Iranians know that Persian=Dari=Tajiki, you should search for the problem somewhere else.--Raayen (talk) 18:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Purim
The word "adopted," in the line "According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Jewish festival of Purim, is probably adopted from the Persian New Year," should be replaced with a word like connected or a fuller explanation. The word "adopted" suggests that the Purim holiday's traditions and story are based upon the Nowruz story. A strong relationship like that is not supported by research. Rather, most researchers would only seek to show that the celebratory nature of the holiday was instituted and retained given Purim's proximity to Nowruz. An excellent excerpt of this point is made in the Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, by James Hastings, John Alexander Selbie, and Louis Herbert Gray (see http://books.google.com/books?id=pf4hAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA506&lpg=PA506&dq=persian+new+year+purim&source=bl&ots=55FOUYHbug&sig=L_O6GMEM6Jo39Bv0Az38JrhyUjA&hl=en&ei=vvHDSdPNDpr2MIWYxJoK&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA506,M1). Also, the Britannica link fails to link to an article containing any mention of Purim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasondf36 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I checked Britannica. This quote is from Judaism (religion): Myth and legend in the Persian period ) : The principal monument of Jewish story in the Persian period is the biblical Book of Esther, which is basically a Judaized version of a Persian novella about the shrewdness of harem queens. The story was adapted to account for Purim, a popular festival, which itself is probably a transformation of the Persian New Year. Leading elements of the tale—such as the parade of Mordecai, dressed in royal robes, through the streets, the fight between the Jews and their adversaries, and the hanging of Haman and his sons—seem to reflect customs associated with Purim, such as the ceremonial ride of a common citizen through the capital, the mock combat between two teams representing the Old Year and the New Year, and the execution of the Old Year in effigy. --St. Hubert (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

northern hemisphere
Hello there, look at this sentence, there is a (useless) triple enhancement:

"Nowrūz is the traditional Iranian new year holiday celebrated by Iranian peoples, having its roots in Ancient Iran."

It's great to make reference to the origin of a festival, but this seemed a little overprotective (??!).

I would keep the reference to the origin (having its roots in Anciant Iran) and change the sentence in the following way:

Nowrūz [Persian: ...] is a traditional new year holiday having its roots in Ancient Iran and being celebrated by various people in the northern hemisphere, partly as the day marking the beginning of spring.

Yours, --Eatslowly (talk) 11:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Nowruz is now officially recognized in the Canadian calendar
The federal parliament of Canada has passed a bill to add Nowruz to the national calendar of Canada. See the approved bill here. Someone that has 'edit' permission please add this to the article in a proper section. 82.224.164.201 (talk) 16:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Isma'ilism
I propose inserting a section on the importance of Now Ruz to Isma'ilis after Zoroastrianism.--Water Stirs (talk) 03:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Persian Vs Iranian
An anonymous user 82.95.13.109 (Talk) has been changing all instances of 'Iranian' to 'Persian'. I'm not an expert here, but my understanding is that the word 'Persian' has some political connotations, so I'm pretty sure that violates NPOV. I have reverted the changes, but whoever made them should feel free to discuss them on this talk page first before deciding whether to continue. Pipnosis 16:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear, if you admit that you are not an expert, why you change "Iranian (Persian)" to just "Iranian". If you know just a little bit about Persian history and culture, you'll undertsand that the right and more known term would be "Persian". That's why I put "Iranian (Persian)" instead of Iranian to make more sense. Besides, I have no idea why you say "Persain" has some political connoatations. It doesn't have anything to have with politics dude.

This is a long-standing discussion that I expect we are not going to solve here. But, if you go to Iran and ask people what country you are in, they will say “Iran”; absolutely nobody will say "Persia". The term Persian is largely used by older non-Iranians and certain Iranians who have adopted it mostly because they want to avoid being associated with present day Iran or have a certain political stance. The exclusive usage of the term "Iran" in the country itself, and thae fact that it is commonly recognised across the world, is what makes Iran and Iranian the correct terms for referring to the present day country and its citizens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.175.117 (talk) 00:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

PERSIAN is not political. What a strange idea that if you go to Iran "absolutely nobody will say "Persia"! because in Iran/Persia the official language is PERSIAN and in the 'Persian language' the term is 'Iran' but here (Wiki English section) we are talking about the usage of the term in "ENGLISH". If you go to Germany nobody say GERMANY. They say "Deutschland" because they speak German and German name of that country is "Deutschland" not Germany! So you think GERMANY is a political term?!

According to many documents and maps from ancient time to 1935 and even later, Persia is simply Western historical name of Iran. It's still quite popular in Western languages. Even now when both people and experts write or talk about various aspects of Persian history and culture (eg. Persian carpet, miniature, literature, classical music, cat, melon, lilac, etc.) they use PERSIAN as well.

According to UN Nowruz has also Persian origin. The best thing is to use both terms beside eachother to prevent any kind of confusion. Thank you. --Pejman7 (talk) 16:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please read the articles on Iranian peoples and Persian peoples. They have different meanings, and Nowruz is celebrated by a larger group than just Persians from Iran, but Uzbeks, Tajiks, and other Iranian peoples. Removing the term Iranian removes the importance of Nowruz to those peoples.  Plus the term Iranian peoples is referenced. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Jeff3000, actually there is a problem with Iranian People and Persian People entries in Wikipedia. It's better that we use Persian-speakers instead of Persian people because historically (since 6th century BC until 1935) Persia was official name of Iran so through the history Persia = Iran. Actually in Western languages "Iran" is a quite new term. Separating Iranian and Persian in English as has been mentioned by Pejman7 is confusing and wrong. I think it's better that we use "Persian (Iranian)" in the beginning of the entry and NOT separating "Persian" and "Iranian". Best for you! --Shayan7 14:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shayan7 (talk • contribs)
 * The Iranian peoples article is quite well referenced according to Wikipedia's Verifiability policies, and the term here is also referenced, so your statements are original research. Removing the term Iranian removes lots of ethnicities that are not Persian who celebrate NawRuz from attribution.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Excuse me but it should not be just well according to Wikipedia's policies; it should be well according the historical documents as well. Persia is Iran in English. It's quite clear according to all documents and maps. If you do not care about that and just repeat that it's not, it's another issue. PERSIAN CARPET is the carpet from Persia/Iran not just from Persian-speaking parts of the country! Carpet from Tabriz is also Persian carpet. Persia is not a racial term. Same for Persian cats; they are not just Persian-speaking cats of the country!

Also I did not remove "Iranian", I wrote "Persian (Iranian)" which is perfect, complete and prevents any kind of confusion. --Shayan7 18:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shayan7 (talk • contribs)
 * Everything in Wikipedia has to be according to Wikipedia's policies. And Iranian and Persian are not synonymous, please read the Iranian peoples article, so including Persian in parenthesis is as a clarification item is just incorrect. Also we need to include other elasticities such as Uzbeks, and Tajiks in the definition of people who celebrate the holiday.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 04:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)