Talk:Noye's Fludde

The Scallop
IMO, this art does not belong on this page. The words on the edge of the shell are not from Noye's Fludde, but from a different opera: Peter Grimes.

Ed8r (talk) 15:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The Scallop appears on all the Britten opera pages - it's part of the navbox that allows easy movement between opera articles. Normally, the image in the box is a picture of the composer, but there used to be no free image of Britten that could be used.  I now see that a public domain image is available, so I'll replace the shell with it. --GuillaumeTell 17:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Done (after a bit of a struggle). --GuillaumeTell 17:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Moonrise Kingdom
Noye's Fludde is featured quite prominently in the Wes Anderson film "Moonrise Kingdom". Perhaps there should be some mention of that on this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.14.107 (talk) 01:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's a major element in the film.2600:1000:B001:E767:EC25:82E4:7E3C:3496 (talk) 17:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I added a sentence about this to the "Later Performances" section but it was reverted because the inclusion in a film did not count as a real performance. I can see the point, but in terms of impact that film should be included somewhere. It doesn't seem to fit in any of the existing sections, but doesn't quite justify its own section.Fothergilla (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:52, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

For what little it's worth, I agree it should be mentioned. I perceive an inconsistency here. When one work of art is used or referenced in another work of art, that seems an important part of its history. Sometimes that is acknowledged. For instance, the article on the song "Unchained Melody," under "In Popular Culture," includes mention of its use in the movie "Ghost" (and that is the entire "In Popular Culture" section of the article -- and it seems an odd section name, since "Unchained Melody" itself is popular culture, so the title should be "Elsewhere in Popular Culture"). However (to use a closer parallel), the article on the opera "La Traviata" does not mention its use in the movie "Pretty Woman." Is there a policy on this? Again, when one creative work plays an important part in another, that seems a significant part of its history (particularly when, as was the case with me, the first I ever knew "Noye's Fludde" existed was when it was depicted in "Moonrise Kingdom"; I assumed at first it had been invented for the movie just like the Christmas pageant with two lobsters was presumably invented for "Love Actually," not taken from an existing work). But I'm not sure if it's Wikipedia policy to include those in some cases but not others, and if so, what the difference is. Gms3591 (talk) 12:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The work's use in Moonrise Kingdom is sufficiently covered in that article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Right. But the appearance of Noye's Fludde in Moonreise Kingdom is insufficiently covered in the present article. Albrecht Conz (talk) 22:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Your assumption that Noye's Fludde was invented for Moonrise Kingdom is dispelled by that article. Mentioning that film here doesn't add anything to the understanding of Britten's work; the same applies to Pretty Woman and La traviata. That's why WP:POPCULTURE cautions against including such lists. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't assume anything of the kind. And I agree, the addition of such nilly-willy lists of references to a work often do not add but instead muddle such articles. Having said that, the perception and the use other artists make of a work of art form an important part of such an article, on the one hand, because they tend to lead to a different view of the work and, on the other, because a certain number of people will have come across this work via references in other media. Excluding the mention of ways in which such a work was used later on is an argument one could easily reverse, namely arguing that the mention of Britten's sources and how he reworked them does not belong in this article as neither the Old Testament nor the medevial mystery plays were written so that Britten could mine them for his opera. Albrecht Conz (talk) 01:16, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
 * a) You wrote "I assumed at first it had been invented for the movie". b) There's a difference between adapting the Chester Mystery Plays and the incidental use of music in a film, unless such use receives substantial commentary in reliable sources. c) Suggesting that this article should not discuss Britten's source selection is absurd. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I did not write that. Maybe someone else did. So please respond do what I said - and not to something you seem to imagine I said. - As to your argument, excluding uses others make of Britten's work while including uses he made of others work is absurd - and I don't see any kind of argument on your side, just a flat and dogmatic refusal to reflect and to argue a point, while at the same time attributing arguments I did not put forward in the first place. Albrecht Conz (talk) 04:56, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I regret starting a heated discussion -- partly because Mr. Bednarak is attributing to Mr. Conz something I wrote. Thank you for the reference to the WP:POPCULTURE article, which is exactly what I was asking for when I asked "Is there a policy on this?" There IS a policy, and though I can't say I understood how to apply it to this case, I'm glad there's guidance. (Is there a way to find articles like that, or does one need to know they exist?  I certainly couldn't find it on my own when I looked through the Help.)  I acknowledge that, in order to find out if Noye's Fludde was invented for Moonrise Kingdom, one would look at the Moonrise Kingdom article, not the Noye's Fludde article (since, if one was asking the question, one wouldn't know that a work named Noye's Fludde even existed; that would be what one was trying to find out).  I think that when one work is DERIVED FROM or BASED ON another work (as Noye's Fludde is based on the Bible), obviously those works should be included in explaining how the work was created.  I don't think Moonrise Kingdom was BASED ON Noye's Fludde, but merely used it as it might have used any other work of serious art designed to be performed by children (if there are any others; Noye's Fludde may be unique).  I find it interesting when creative works have been used in other creative works, but if others feel it clutters up articles, I see that viewpoint also.  Again, I didn't mean to start a fight. Gms3591 (talk) 13:29, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Performance history
User:Bencherlite has removed almost all of the Perf. hist. section with the comment to the effect that every amateur performance need not be listed. Now we have almost none.

The article's first paragraph notes that the opera is intended to be performed by amateurs, which is part of the point of including many of these performances. They demonstrate that communities all over the world have been involved in staging the work in cathedrals, community centres, etc.

I agree that the list can be trimmed and some things consolidated, but I do not want it reduced to where it stands today. Any comments - for or against? Viva-Verdi (talk) 22:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It had turned into an indiscriminate list of numerous 2013 performances by all and sundry, mostly without any decent references. One editor was so encouraged by this that he added ticket availability details! The section seriously unbalanced the rest of the article and was full of a bias towards recent events. If you want to show that Britten intended amateur performance, then find a decent source saying so; if you want to show that it has been performed lots by amateurs around the country or around the world, then find a decent source saying so; but saying that groups A, B, C, D, E... Z performed it (even with a reference from a secondary source for each performance) and therefore it can been demonstrated that communities all over the world have performed it is original research / synthesis, which isn't on. Some useful material might be available in this, this, this, for example.  (Incidentally, Humphrey Carpenter's biography has the interesting snippet that Michael Crawford appeared as Jaffet in the first production, by the way - and it wasn't his first Britten role either!) BencherliteTalk 23:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I should like to contribute to this discussion (between two editors whom I much admire), but am away from my books, so may I leave a seat reservation here and return a.s.a.p. (which may not be for a week or several)? Tim riley (talk) 14:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Back to the discussion on performances

Clearly, the section has been trimmed, but I still believe that some reference needs to be given to the centenary year presentations. Therefore, my proposed revision for inclusion (see below, indented) cover some of the major ones, including those given by festivals, in cathedrals, and by opera companies, all of which take them beyond the traditional notion of amateur presentatins.

Now I know that I'm including the only photo that seems to exist of one of these productions and it is my own photo for the Santa Fe presentation, but I think that the piece needs a photo to give it some extra life.

Also, I realise that we'll need to trim the info on the existing Chinese stagings - or incorporate this somehow. So, opinions please. Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:17, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The centenary year prompted numerous performances across the UK, with many presented by school groups in public places such as cathedrals, churches, schools, or community centres. Some, such as one in Tewkesbury Abbey in July were mounted by music festivals, in this case, the Cheltenham Music Festival,[Gloucester Cathedral]] and Worcester Cathedral were venues for performances by the English Symphony Orchestra. In July, the youth choir Cantate performed the opera as part of the Thaxted Festival. It was given in  Lichfield Cathedral in November.


 * The Britten-Pears Foundation and the Harpenden Music Foundation supported performances in St Nicholas' Parish Church, Harpenden, in June.
 * Professional opera companies around the world also staged the work. The New Zealand Opera presented community performances in Auckland, with local children singing and performing alongside professionals.

The NI Opera and the KT Wong Foundation production was performed in Shanghai as part of the "Music in the Summer Air" Festival.The Santa Fe Opera presented four family-oriented programs during its summer season in one of the main rehearsal halls. Professionals played the major roles, with Kevin Burdette being the Voice of God. New Orleans Opera presented its first production of any Britten opera in November. This was a community performance involving the Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra, Trinity School's Choir and Bell Choir and other high schools in the area.


 * An Aldeburgh Festival production was staged in November in Britten's home-town of Lowestoft with Andrew Shore as Noye.

How is this for trimming down a bit?
In light of Tim's remarks below, I've trimmed this section down quite a bit as follows. It would begin by including the Chinese production:




 * Subsequent productions in zoos have been presented by the NI Opera in Northern Ireland and the KT Wong Foundation, in Belfast Zoo, directed by Oliver Mears and conducted by Nicholas Chalmers, with Paul Carey Jones as Noye and Doreen Curran as Mrs Noye. The same production was also performed in October 2012 at the Beijing Music Festival, this being the Chinese premiere of the work, and the first full performance of a Britten opera in China.


 * The centenary year prompted numerous performances across the UK, with many presented by school groups in public places such as cathedrals, churches, schools, or community centres. Some were mounted by music festivals such as the Cheltenham Music Festival and the Thaxted Festival. The Britten-Pears Foundation also supported performances in June.


 * Professional opera companies including the New Zealand Opera, The Santa Fe Opera,, and the New Orleans Opera, which mounted its first production of any Britten opera, used local children singing and performing alongside professionals.


 * An Aldeburgh Festival production was staged in November in Britten's home-town of Lowestoft with Andrew Shore as Noye, and was nationally broadcast in Britain.

Two penn'orth
Full disclosure: I had the pleasure of lunching with Viva-Verdi when he was in London recently. I hope my comments are nonetheless scrupulously objective. I fear they may read like the wishy-washy compromise of a lifelong liberal and a career civil servant (i.e. me). On the one hand the piece is intended for amateur performance, and the usual caution about admitting details of amateur performances needs to be looked at in that light. On the other hand, I don't think it tells a reader in Virginia very much that the work was put on in Brentwood Cathedral or vice versa. What I should like to see, as a visitor who doesn't know the piece that well, is something like a paragraph or two, saying that it's done by amateurs (with selected examples from the UK, US, Asia and continental Europe) and by professionals, such as Los Angeles Opera. If (lunch notwithstanding) both Bencherlite and Viva-Verdi are happy for me to have a shot at this it will be my privilege and pleasure to give it a go. Tim riley (talk) 20:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm late on parade again – sorry! In my view the four paragraphs above are just what we want: a good overview of amateur and professional productions that anyone anywhere can relate to. The inadvertent omission of the four signatory tildes means that I don't know whether the suggestion comes from the house of Montagu or Capulet, but I support it whichever its source Tim riley (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Whoops, sorry. Was my revision. I shall go ahead and load it up into the article. All the best for 2014! Viva-Verdi (talk) 02:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Another two penn'orth
What a delightful article. About 12 years ago it was put on in Saint Mary's Church, Bridgwater,Somerset, (UK) under the direction of the choir master, John Bodiley. The children were drawn from a local school, and the choir boys. Adult choir members sang the main parts. The accompaniment was by two music teachers playing one piano. I was involved in making the wind machine and the musical mugs machine. The latter caused a headache as we bought a job lot of mugs in the market which proved to all have the same note! If this performance is felt worth noting in the piece I can probably provide an accurate date. Maybe someone can email me? Apwoolrich (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Notable early production
I believe the 1961 production at St Andrews Hall, Norwich, as part of the Norfolk and Norwich Triennial Festival is notable enough for inclusion being so early. I know that Owen Brannigan played Noye, as in the premiere, and the other main soloists were probably professionals. The orchestra was the Norwich Schools Orchestra. Unfortunately I can find no references to this production. I know that my presence at all three (or four?) performances is not an acceptable reference, but hopefully someone can come up with one and insert a brief mention in this section. Mike Spathaky (talk) 01:18, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * An interesting early production, but what would make it notable in Wikipedia's sense is if it received substantial coverage such as in London papers or national music magazines. Let us see what is found. SovalValtos (talk) 01:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

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